Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[N3ON]

That's not even an accurate statement though, Spiderman and Venom have aesthetic similarities, but they are completely different characters with completely different origin stories and powers. You could make that argument for Miles Morales, because he's also Spider Man, but Venom isn't. It's like trying to say that Sonic and Crash are the same because they are both furry animal mascots that spin. Or that Minecraft and Terraria are the same games because they are both 2D sanboxes.. or this argument can go on and on.

You claim to be against characters that aren't creative, but your argument isn't very creative in the first place, it's just a pseudointellectual opinion that a million people already have.

Being completely different characters with different origins and powers don't preclude being derivative. Look at Shadow.

Venom is literally Spider-Man's previous suit on a different guy. And yes, that suit is an alien and has powers in excess of normal Spider-Man, and the personalities of Eddie Brock, Peter Parker, and the symbiote are all different, but the character was created to reflect a host for the same suit who lacks Peter Parker's virtues, and the repercussions of such. In a vacuum that's not uninteresting, but even at that point the themes were well worn and tropey.

Venom is the Iron Monger to Spider-Man's Iron Man, and I find that character derivative as well. Bigger, meaner versions who come into being on sloppy seconds of the protagonist. Obviously Miles Morales is more derivative than Venom, and "evil Spider-Man" is reductive, but they're all different strands of that first guy in ways Green Goblin and Doc Ock and Mysterio aren't. Just because he's not a character literally designed to be the opposite like Bizarro and Reverse Flash doesn't mean he's not firmly a spin on Spider-Man.

You can make reflective characters without them being literally a dark version of the character. Batman and Joker are polar opposites ideologically, but you're not going to confuse one for the other. Professor X and Magneto represent opposing methods of leadership in the face of oppression, but one isn't just an iteration of the other.

Venom is inarguably cool, but he's absolutely derivative. That doesn't mean he's completely devoid of uniqueness, not even characters like Scarlet Spider and Miles Morales are, nor is he close to the most egregious case or a "bad" character, but it can't be said he's... y'know... original. I mean Spider-Man literally did it first, and Venom was created to be the insidious version that Peter wouldn't be.

This doesn't really have much to do with Smash though, so if you want to continue we should probably take it to PM.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I dunno, as much as I can whine about Nintendo mishandling series, most of those with a playable character in Smash are not in a bad state, I'd say.

The ones that didn't get anything in the past few years I can think of the top of my head are F-Zero, Punch-Out, Earthbound, Ice Climber and Duck Hunt. And the latter three are kinda obvious: Mother 3 actually finished the series' plotline - Earthbound isn't dead, it just... ended. And unless they remade Duck Hunt and Ice Climber, there's not much else I can see coming out of these IPs unless they change them into something completely different, like they did with Kid Icarus.

For all the **** we give them, Nintendo can be pretty good at juggling between series on the spotlight.

The issue starts when you dip into the series without fighters. Advance Wars is coming back, thankfully, but there's still Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, Mach Rider, Excitebike, Custom Robo, Sin & Punishment, etc. These are the ones that get only a brief acknowledgement in Smash, at most.

Then there's poor Startropics, which gets nothing at all.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Earthbound isn't dead, it just... ended.

Death by natural causes is still death.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Death by natural causes is still death.

I know, it's just that I've seen people use "dead" to say that a series is dormant rather than finished - which isn't true in this case.

...Maybe we should just use that in these cases, eh?

 

[Ivander]

I mean in terms of the ratio between currently active IPs vs IPs they own:


Lotta corpses propping up the top section of the screen.

So in the last 5 years:
19/60
17/60 if not counting remakes
19 or 17/58 if not counting 101 or Fatal Frame due to their releases on other consoles.

If doing all 3DS/Wii U/Switch games:
29/60
27/58 if not counting 101 or Fatal Frame.

That's honestly a surprising number. 17/19 IPs with a game in the last 5 years and 27/29 IPs for this and the last Generation. But yeah, unsurprisingly, also a lot of IPs without a game in the last 5 years or generation, but for the ones alive, that's a more impressive number than I thought it was going to be.

Meanwhile, Capcom had Street Fighter, Monster Hunter, Resident Evil, Sengoku Basara, Dead Rising, Phoenix Wright, Versus Capcom, Mega Man, Devil May Cry, Ghosts'n Goblins and Shinsekai: Into the Depths. 10 IPs with a new game and 1 new IP in the last 5 years.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I will agree though, most series have been handled well so long as they have a fighter. IMO, the outliers are:

• Star Fox is like the little engine that couldn't. Hopefully it survives long enough to be good again.
• EarthBound is finished, as is often said, and because of that, and how much of the game feels like the work of one person, most people are content with what it has. The problem is that Nintendo won't even let us play what it has. Screw politics. Gimme my Earthbound 2!
• F-Zero is weird because Nintendo is adamant that it shouldn't get anymore games and every time they comment on the fan demand they're like "why? There's nothing more to do here. I guess we can make another one if we think of something, but we're not actually going to try and think of something". proceeds to make another derivative New Super Mario Bros.
• Ice Climber was never really meant to be a series, and in terms of public perception is in the camp of "a new game would be cool, but we're not going to be super into the concept until it's likely to happen".
• Pikmin is at best, in development heck, but at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it was shadow canceled.
• R.O.B. isn't really a series, and it's probably fine that the peripheral was dropped. R.O.B. probably won't be forgotten though, as he has made the odd appearance here and there in the past.
• Wii Fit likely had the console's life span as an expiration date, and I doubt people would really want more of it, especially considering Ring Fit Adventure.
• PUNCH-OUT!! has likely gone back into its deep slumber, but there's no way to know.
• Duck Hunt could be rebooted just like Ice Climber, but I doubt Nintendo would actually do that. Duck Hunt is likely to stay in its decade.

To be fair though, it's likely that Super Smash Bros.'s roster is super biased towards the IPs that stuck long term.

 

[spicynun]

Complaining that Dimitrescu isn't the main villain of RE8 and that it's false advertising feels like complaining the entirety of RE2 isn't the police station or the entirety of RE7 isn't Jack Backer's house.

Like it's the demo area.

Obviously the game's going to be more than that.

That never made sense to me, especially since the later marketing made it clear she was one of the lords.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Why aren’t we counting Wonderful 101? Nintendo still owns it. (A small point I know but let’s be accurate)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Why aren’t we counting Wonderful 101? Nintendo still owns it. (A small point I know but let’s be accurate)

They do? I thought that was still an unknown.

Also I highly doubt anyone was looking at literally all of their IPs, 'cuz there's a ton.

Also also, my brain originally substituted Wonderful for Wizard and I was super confused.

 

[Mushufasa]

Why aren’t we counting Wonderful 101? Nintendo still owns it. (A small point I know but let’s be accurate)

I put Wonder-Red in my "1 in 14 million realities" tier on my comically large Chances tier list (let me know if you want me to repost it ). I'm hardly a person to comment on them, never played the game. I imagine there are two reasons against Wonder-Red's odds that get brought up:

1. Popularity. I'm one of the only people I know (amongst Real Life people, not online gaming friends ) that actually owned a Wii U. And even -I- didn't play The Wonderful 101. Usually when out of nowhere characters are added it's more in the vein of being Retro (Game & Watch, ROB, Duck Hunt).

2. Bayonetta could be considered Platinum Games' representative.

Hardly the tightest "arguments" to have against any character, but I imagine it gets brought up in the 'Cons' section of Wonder-Red's chances.

Just based on the little I've seen of the game, he would have an amazing and creative moveset! Any good music tracks from 101?

 

[FreeFox]

I wonder how would Wonder Red even play? Would he be similar in style to Olimar?

 

[cashregister9]

Why aren’t we counting Wonderful 101? Nintendo still owns it. (A small point I know but let’s be accurate)

I think that is because it's owned by Platinum

 

[DarthEnderX]

1. Resident Evil has only gotten new online multiplayer games... AND THEY SUCK.
2. In terms of Darkstalkers, it's just copy-and-pasting Morrigan if Darkstalkers makes physical appearances. VERY RARELY have they done a Darkstalkers crossover and put a Darkstalkers character that WASN'T Morrigan.
3. The best Rival Schools has gotten as of now was Akira Kazama in Street Fighter 5. And yes, Sakura explains everything as to how they met.
4. Bionic Commando has only gotten ONE crossover. ONE. And that was in MvC2. A 21-YEAR-OLD GAME.
5. I have never heard anything about a Breath of Fire crossover. Not even once.
6. I meant all of that as in CROSSOVERS AND ACTUALLY NEW CONTENT. Ghosts N' Goblins only got a remaster, see #1 for Resident Evil, and re-released games don't count either.

Jesus Christ, like, so many of those are flat out wrong.

1. Ignoring RE7 and 8.
2. MvC3/I and Teppen.
4. Bionic Commando was in MvC3 AND Infinite. And has received 2 new games since MvC2.
5. Teppen
6. GnG Resurrection is not a remaster. And calling REmake 2 and 3 "re-releases" is grossly disingenuous.

Okay see they really bungled the marketing on this one lol. I only learned last month that Resurrections wasn't just a remake of an earlier GnG game. Because you're totally correct! It's simply a brand new game in the franchise. So it's kinda weird that soooo many people did not realize that when that should be a terribly easy distinction to make.

To be fair, every GnG game KINDA feels like a remake, cause they all hit the same beats. You're always gonna start in that graveyard. Always gonna end in that castle refighting bosses, then Astaroth. Then someone worse than Astaroth...

Venom's a formless cannibalistic slime monster who's taken over the shape of a man.

Not just the shape of a man. There's an actual man inside there. He's a formless cannibalistic slime monster that is being worn like a suit.

MvC actually overstates Venom's shapeshifting. Because while the suit can shapeshift, the guy inside can't. So those MvC moves where he turns into, like, a puddle, aren't canon.

Dimetscura was made to definitely appeal for the booba crowd, but I severely doubt they'd think she would TAKE OFF as hard as she did.

I don't think Capcom knew "giant woman" was such a widespread kink. Because I don't think the world knew it was their kink until they saw Lady D.

Plus, let's not kid ourselves, Nintendo fans can be somewhat hypocritical in that regard: they ask for new IPs, yet don't even support said IPs.

Some of said IPs aren't very good. I support the good. Just being new isn't enough.

The ones that didn't get anything in the past few years I can think of the top of my head are F-Zero, Punch-Out, Earthbound, Ice Climber and Duck Hunt. And the latter three are kinda obvious: Mother 3 actually finished the series' plotline - Earthbound isn't dead, it just... ended. And unless they remade Duck Hunt and Ice Climber, there's not much else I can see coming out of these IPs unless they change them into something completely different, like they did with Kid Icarus.

I'm annoyed there was no Duck Hunt on Wii. Even just as part of Wii Sports.

Ice Climbers getting nothing makes sense because...Ice Climbers sucks. Nobody liked it, nobody remembered it till Smash. There's no reason it should get another game.

 

[N3ON]

Yeah I thought Platinum acquired the sole rights to W101, possibly at the cost of relinquishing their stake of Astral Chain. That's just a theory, but the two did seem to occur at around the same time, so it's possible they were related.

In any case, if Nintendo still owned some part of that IP, I don't think you would've seen it make its way to other consoles.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Ok, well as someone who has in fact played and beat the game - Wonderful 101 is the best game on the Wii U. Platinum is on record saying that they do not own the W101 IP and could not elaborate further - so Nintendo does still own it/part of it.

I think Wonder Red would fight in a way where his powerful moves and/or special moves would incorporate the Unite Morph abilities from the game where giant constructs would materialize in the shape of giant fists, swords, guns, hammers, whips etc.

Think almost like a Green Lantern


edit - just noticed the music track question - the game has a gorgeous ost. Though my personal favorite track is already in Ultimate if you scroll down far enough.

 

[Mushufasa]

Oh right, I forgot about that track!

Gotcha, morphing basically means they have quite the variety of moves to choose from / create. Sounds neat!

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

2015年のきょう､『スーパーマリオメーカー』(Super Mario Maker)発売!!
『スーパーマリオブラザーズ』をコンストラクションツールとして遊べるようにしてしまった作品｡
ゲームを作る側から見ると､かなり高度な組み合わせ対応をしているソフトで､ただただ脱帽です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/OsJME2XWxR

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) September 10, 2021

Today in 2015, "Super Mario Maker" will be released !! A work that makes it possible to play "Super Mario Bros." as a construction tool. From the perspective of the game maker, it's a software that supports quite advanced combinations, and it's just a hat tip.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pic of the Day:

2015年のきょう､『スーパーマリオメーカー』(Super Mario Maker)発売!!
『スーパーマリオブラザーズ』をコンストラクションツールとして遊べるようにしてしまった作品｡
ゲームを作る側から見ると､かなり高度な組み合わせ対応をしているソフトで､ただただ脱帽です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/OsJME2XWxR

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) September 10, 2021

Today in 2015, "Super Mario Maker" will be released !! A work that makes it possible to play "Super Mario Bros." as a construction tool. From the perspective of the game maker, it's a software that supports quite advanced combinations, and it's just a hat tip.

Ah, yes, the most iconic event in history to fall on September 11.

 

[Mushufasa]

A Mario Maker picture of the day? We know what this means....

Ninji Speeds into the Battle!

 

[chocolatejr9]

A Mario Maker picture of the day? We know what this means....

Ninji Speeds into the Battle!

I knew they came back for a reason...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why aren’t we counting Wonderful 101? Nintendo still owns it. (A small point I know but let’s be accurate)

The fact that the remake showed up on non-Nintendo consoles makes it pretty clear that PlatinumGames got to get the full rights nowadays.

Because there's no goddamn way Nintendo would allow for their IP to make it on PS4.

 

[ZelDan]

Pic of the Day:

2015年のきょう､『スーパーマリオメーカー』(Super Mario Maker)発売!!
『スーパーマリオブラザーズ』をコンストラクションツールとして遊べるようにしてしまった作品｡
ゲームを作る側から見ると､かなり高度な組み合わせ対応をしているソフトで､ただただ脱帽です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/OsJME2XWxR

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) September 10, 2021

Today in 2015, "Super Mario Maker" will be released !! A work that makes it possible to play "Super Mario Bros." as a construction tool. From the perspective of the game maker, it's a software that supports quite advanced combinations, and it's just a hat tip.

Ah yes, the game that allowed us to experience the levels made by Mario fans themselves. Who doesn't have fond memories of being softlocked in levels due to invisible blocks, getting hit by off-screen thwomps, and completing 6-second long levels where hundreds of blocks, enemies and bosses were vomitted on screen?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Ah yes, the game that allowed us to experience the levels made by Mario fans themselves. Who doesn't have fond memories of being softlocked in levels due to invisible blocks, getting hit by off-screen thwomps, and completing 6-second long levels where hundreds of blocks, enemies and bosses were vomitted on screen?

Don't disrespect the dead like that

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

The fact that the remake showed up on non-Nintendo consoles makes it pretty clear that PlatinumGames got to get the full rights nowadays.

Because there's no goddamn way Nintendo would allow for their IP to make it on PS4.

If Platinum owned the IP they could and would say so. They talk so much about wanting to create and own their own IPs. Unless they are waiting for legal paperwork to go through why wouldn’t they say they own it?

 

[PLATINUM7]

If Platinum owned the IP they could and would say so. They talk so much about wanting to create and own their own IPs. Unless they are waiting for legal paperwork to go through why wouldn’t they say they own it?

Okay you got me.

I own it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay you got me.

I own it.

May I see it?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Can I see it?

No.

 

[Guynamednelson]

No.

PLATINUM7! The house is on fire!

 

[PLATINUM7]

PLATINUM7! The house is on fire!

No Guynamednelson, that's just Bayonetta 3.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If Platinum owned the IP they could and would say so. They talk so much about wanting to create and own their own IPs. Unless they are waiting for legal paperwork to go through why wouldn’t they say they own it?

Because there's no traces of Nintendo whatsoever in the remake? Not even on the Switch version?

Nintendo doesn't own Wonderful 101 anymore if they don't even show the logo. Sounds like good logic to me.

 

[Baba]

Anyone able to play WarioWare? It still isn't available for me.

Edit: NVM literally just unlocked.

 

[Perkilator]

Pic of the Day:

2015年のきょう､『スーパーマリオメーカー』(Super Mario Maker)発売!!
『スーパーマリオブラザーズ』をコンストラクションツールとして遊べるようにしてしまった作品｡
ゲームを作る側から見ると､かなり高度な組み合わせ対応をしているソフトで､ただただ脱帽です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/OsJME2XWxR

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) September 10, 2021

Today in 2015, "Super Mario Maker" will be released !! A work that makes it possible to play "Super Mario Bros." as a construction tool. From the perspective of the game maker, it's a software that supports quite advanced combinations, and it's just a hat tip.

Ah yes, the Mario game with...unfortunate timing for its US release.

I'm going to Hell for saying this aren't I

 

[Mushufasa]

I see people mention Sol Badguy as a potential fighter from Guilty Gear. But what if we lived in the timeline where it's actually...

Spoiler: 🐬

TOTSUGEKI

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No Guynamednelson, that's just Bayonetta 3.

Well PLATINUM7, you're an odd fellow, but I must say you develop a good action game.

 

[cashregister9]

Okay but like what if Mona from Warioware was the final fighter.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Because there's no traces of Nintendo whatsoever in the remake? Not even on the Switch version?

Nintendo doesn't own Wonderful 101 anymore if they don't even show the logo. Sounds like good logic to me.

Don’t forget that Nintendo didn’t help platinum make the game to begin with. It’s a case of “hey you, make us a game” and platinum said “sure thing!”
For all we know it is just a legal waiting period and it will become clear in the future but until the IP has officially and publicly changed hands it still is a Nintendo property.

 

[Gnateb]

[URL unfurl="true"]https://twitter.com/peta/status/1435717846076637190?s=21

I think Peta is legit guys. Really hyped rn

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Don’t forget that Nintendo didn’t help platinum make the game to begin with. It’s a case of “hey you, make us a game” and platinum said “sure thing!”
For all we know it is just a legal waiting period and it will become clear in the future but until the IP has officially and publicly changed hands it still is a Nintendo property.

It could be a Minecraft style thing.

Where the console developer still owns the IP, but they allow it on other consoles.

It goes against Nintendo's character but that may just show how much they actually care about Wonderful 101 and the recent Fatal Frames.


Honest question, is Nintendo credited in the credits of non Nintendo versions of The Wonderful 101: Remastered?

 

[N3ON]

Don’t forget that Nintendo didn’t help platinum make the game to begin with. It’s a case of “hey you, make us a game” and platinum said “sure thing!”
For all we know it is just a legal waiting period and it will become clear in the future but until the IP has officially and publicly changed hands it still is a Nintendo property.

Nintendo funded development of W101, like they do for all their first-party games (which W101 used to be). Platinum didn't have the resources to fund their own development prior to the investment from Tencent, which is why nearly all of their properties are owned by a company other than themselves.

It's likely a case that Nintendo rejected the appeal to port the title, but gave Platinum the option to buy their share out since they had no further intentions of using the IP. Either that or Platinum traded their stake in Astral Chain for sole rights of W101. Deals don't really happen where rights revert to a developer after a certain amount of time. Especially with Nintendo. Usually, though, the developer does co-own the IP with Nintendo.

So it really must've underscored how little Nintendo valued W101 if they were willing to part with their stake.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I see people mention Sol Badguy as a potential fighter from Guilty Gear. But what if we lived in the timeline where it's actually...

Spoiler: 🐬

TOTSUGEKI

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