Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[chocolatejr9]

I heard they made a movie about him.

You joke, but that movie was actually one of the main inspirations for my idea, specifically for R.O.B.'s personality.

BTW, off-topic, but watch WALL*E. Such a good movie.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You joke, but that movie was actually one of the main inspirations for my idea, specifically for R.O.B.'s personality.

BTW, off-topic, but watch WALL*E. Such a good movie.

Well, they are both the last of their kind.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't think this makes any sense. Remember that Sakurai did say that they were considering Min Min or Ninjara initially before Yabuki recommended Min Min, this seems to imply that Nintendo kinda went "hey pick an ARMS character" and gave autonomy to Sakurai on how he would make that challenger pack, it's just that Yabuki happened to make a request, and that's how we got Min Min. We can see this more clearly with Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya. For the former, Sakurai said that Rex was planned initially before they swapped to Pyra/Mythra after realizing it wouldn't be feasible. I imagine that if Nintendo mandated we'd get Rex, that Sakurai would probably cut the Pyra/Mythra part of that moveset instead of Rex. Meanwhile Sakurai mentioned that Nintendo asked for a Tekken character rather than Kazuya in particular, even noting that Kazuya's devil gene is the reason they landed on him. I feel like the amount of creative control and nuance with these character selections is being downplayed a little. It is very clear that Nintendo decides the main aspects of what would be included in each pack, mainly the game they are choosing to represent, but I imagine Sakurai is given freedom to decide how they go about doing that.

No, because that doesn't work.

That would mean Sakurai is "choosing the character". The hard statement is that Nintendo is choosing each character. There is no actual plausible case where Sakurai could've chosen who the ARMS character was. He was told Min Min straight out in every scenario that makes sense within the actual information fully given.

He can consider who he wants to begin with. He had zero power to actually make that consideration useful. He was going to go with whatever Nintendo and Yabuki said, regardless, as long as he can make them work. That's the point behind the selection process.

We know the hard narrative is Nintendo is choosing the characters. All this shows is that Nintendo actually gave Sakurai a small list of Tekken choices, but they still were choosing who the options were(as a possibility.). Sakurai couldn't just go with anyone he wanted. He didn't get told "Franchise" in itself. He clearly had to have a specific set. Otherwise Nintendo can't be choosing the characters, can they?

That's where any idea Sakurai has more than veto power starts to fall apart. The narrative didn't change, and Sakurai hammered it home from time and time again.

Don't forget Sakurai also goes out of his way to discuss each character. So if it wasn't another bonus character at one point(which was likely what Steve was going to be, if only cause he was in talks for five years, making him the most likely option for that concept), then it means Nintendo did make a list, a concept that was shot down due to Sakurai's previous statements of "Nintendo is choosing the characters" but also a lack of evidence. Now there's evidence. Nintendo giving a short list of Tekken choices does make sense within the narrative, and Sakurai has to consider which one of the two he thinks is better. In this scenario, Nintendo is choosing the characters, and Sakurai has veto power, which both are exactly what he's said before. I don't see why it would be some odd thing with Sakurai having more power than he says he does. He's not going to lie about it. He's going to be very honest over how it went. The worst that happened is that the translation is very awkward and he simply didn't say it all exactly as it happened, but still gave us relevant information that makes it easy to put together to be accurate to his previous statements.

There's no evidence where Sakurai actually could've chosen a character outright without Nintendo first suggesting it. That scenario wouldn't exist at this point. Not within the normal Pass characters. ARMS is just what it is. Yabuki requested Min Min, Nintendo said yes, or the other way around, Nintendo asked Yabuki for who he wanted, Yabuki said Min Min. Both scenarios make way more sense. Sakurai, again, can consider whoever he wants as cool pass ideas or bonus characters. It was made clear he doesn't control them outside of saying yes or no to a character Nintendo gives to him as an option. All this really proves is that both Kazuya and Heihachi were given to Sakurai as an option(assuming no bonus character shenanigans). ...That's not farfetched. That's pretty much... how simple it is.

 

[Noler_Mass]

let’s talk about Phoenix Wright again
I’m hype for ace attorney chronicles tbh

 

[chocolatejr9]

let’s talk about Phoenix Wright again

Sorry. Have to wait until Great Ace Attorney comes out.

 

[FreeFox]

Sorry. Have to wait until Great Ace Attorney comes out.

Only two more days. Well, Its technically almost just one day left of waiting.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Only two more days. Well, Its technically almost just one day left of waiting.

Fun fact: same day as Neo: TWEWY.

Though weirdly enough, I've seen no advertising for either...

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

let’s talk about Phoenix Wright again
I’m hype for ace attorney chronicles tbh

I have that **** preloaded and ready

 

[Noler_Mass]

Herlock Sholmes for smash tbh

 

[PeridotGX]

No, because that doesn't work.

That would mean Sakurai is "choosing the character". The hard statement is that Nintendo is choosing each character. There is no actual plausible case where Sakurai could've chosen who the ARMS character was. He was told Min Min straight out in every scenario that makes sense within the actual information fully given.

He can consider who he wants to begin with. He had zero power to actually make that consideration useful. He was going to go with whatever Nintendo and Yabuki said, regardless, as long as he can make them work. That's the point behind the selection process.

We know the hard narrative is Nintendo is choosing the characters. All this shows is that Nintendo actually gave Sakurai a small list of Tekken choices, but they still were choosing who the options were(as a possibility.). Sakurai couldn't just go with anyone he wanted. He didn't get told "Franchise" in itself. He clearly had to have a specific set. Otherwise Nintendo can't be choosing the characters, can they?

That's where any idea Sakurai has more than veto power starts to fall apart. The narrative didn't change, and Sakurai hammered it home from time and time again.

Don't forget Sakurai also goes out of his way to discuss each character. So if it wasn't another bonus character at one point(which was likely what Steve was going to be, if only cause he was in talks for five years, making him the most likely option for that concept), then it means Nintendo did make a list, a concept that was shot down due to Sakurai's previous statements of "Nintendo is choosing the characters" but also a lack of evidence. Now there's evidence. Nintendo giving a short list of Tekken choices does make sense within the narrative, and Sakurai has to consider which one of the two he thinks is better. In this scenario, Nintendo is choosing the characters, and Sakurai has veto power, which both are exactly what he's said before. I don't see why it would be some odd thing with Sakurai having more power than he says he does. He's not going to lie about it. He's going to be very honest over how it went. The worst that happened is that the translation is very awkward and he simply didn't say it all exactly as it happened, but still gave us relevant information that makes it easy to put together to be accurate to his previous statements.

There's no evidence where Sakurai actually could've chosen a character outright without Nintendo first suggesting it. That scenario wouldn't exist at this point. Not within the normal Pass characters. ARMS is just what it is. Yabuki requested Min Min, Nintendo said yes, or the other way around, Nintendo asked Yabuki for who he wanted, Yabuki said Min Min. Both scenarios make way more sense. Sakurai, again, can consider whoever he wants as cool pass ideas or bonus characters. It was made clear he doesn't control them outside of saying yes or no to a character Nintendo gives to him as an option. All this really proves is that both Kazuya and Heihachi were given to Sakurai as an option(assuming no bonus character shenanigans). ...That's not farfetched. That's pretty much... how simple it is.

i can't see nintendo particularly caring which specific ARMS character they add, why would they? My assumption is that Nintendo gives Sakurai specific prompts that Sakurai chooses from. For example, "add a character from a 2019 Switch game" for Byleth and "add a Dragon Quest character" for Hero. The only character I think was requested by name was Sephiroth, because he's not necessarily the first thought for another FF character, but makes plenty of sense from a corprate perspective

 

[Noler_Mass]

this is a herlock sholmes thread

 

[Merengue]

Two days until MOTHER 32nd anniversary. I'm looking forward to Sakurai's POTD.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

2019年のきょう『ファイアーエムブレム 風花雪月』(Fire Emblem: Three Houses)発売!!
花鳥風月ではない｡
写真はいつも開発用の特殊なもので撮っていますが､なんでもできるわけではなく｡
この写真､タイミング合わせなどにすんごく苦労しました…#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/3tRnifNk5L

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 26, 2021

Today in 2019, "Fire Emblem: Three Houses" will be released !! It's not Kacho Fugetsu. I always take pictures with special things for development, but I can't do anything. I had a lot of trouble with this photo, timing adjustment, etc ... #Smash Bros SP

 

[kylexv]

Another Anniversary:

2019年のきょう『ファイアーエムブレム 風花雪月』(Fire Emblem: Three Houses)発売!!
花鳥風月ではない｡
写真はいつも開発用の特殊なもので撮っていますが､なんでもできるわけではなく｡
この写真､タイミング合わせなどにすんごく苦労しました…#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/3tRnifNk5L

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 26, 2021

Today in 2019, "Fire Emblem: Three Houses" will be released !! It's not Kacho Fugetsu. I always take pictures with special things for development, but I can't do anything. I had a lot of trouble with this photo, timing adjustment, etc ...

Seriously, play Three Houses. One of the best experiences on the Switch imo.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Pic of the Day:

1985年のきょう､ファミリーコンピューターロボット(Robotic Operating Buddy)発売!!
じつは､昨年おめでとう投稿しています｡つまり一周回ってきてしまいました｡
今後はどうすべきか…。
まだご紹介していないタイトルもいろいろあるのですよね。#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/SNAiE3nOwf

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 26, 2021

R.O.B. made his debut on store shelves 36 years ago today!

Best Sakurai post, no arguments.
:4pac man:

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

i can't see nintendo particularly caring which specific ARMS character they add, why would they? My assumption is that Nintendo gives Sakurai specific prompts that Sakurai chooses from. For example, "add a character from a 2019 Switch game" for Byleth and "add a Dragon Quest character" for Hero. The only character I think was requested by name was Sephiroth, because he's not necessarily the first thought for another FF character, but makes plenty of sense from a corprate perspective

That doesn't make sense from the narrative. They aren't choosing the characters in these scenarios. This is exactly why Yabuki requesting Min Min to Nintendo makes significantly more sense than them going to Yabuki first.

None of those honestly sound realistic here. It doesn't matter if they're corporate. It's been made clear they know exactly who they want and at most have advice from developers besides Sakurai(at most could be Yabuki if any), who made it clear he knows which character from Nintendo within his statements overall. Sakurai even said he outright was told a character and then sat down and discussed each option with them.

There's no other scenario that honestly sounds realistic at this point. "Nintendo chooses the characters" literally still means "Yes, they have a character in mind" in every case. They're not some braindead people who don't know what character is what. They know what they're doing.

It's be more interesting if this was a realistic scenario, sure. Unfortunately it's not within the narrative. Sakurai would've had to pretty clearly bend the truth a massive amount for a single of those scenarios to make sense. He doesn't really actually do that, though. He tries to be as hard clear as possible. The worst that happens is bad translations, or he really doesn't have a good way to describe it(I.E. not using BOTW Zelda. It's clear she's a different mold from the current Zelda in Smash, focusing on a new outfit and abilities, so it was easy to see why she wasn't chosen. The bad translation is more that she's being said to not be an adventurer. In reality, it's more like "she's not an adventurer in the same way the current Zelda is". Which makes sense. She's not really a magical girl archtype anymore, but basically a classic adventurer who can uses weapons/etc. She's basically closer to Link's current thing, and doing that would require a massive overhaul. Her wearing a dress a short time isn't exactly as convincing as using who is a magical girl archtype in ALTTP/ALBW, the one in Ultimate.

It's also why the idea of a BOTW Zelda separately is considered a neat idea. She has options from BOTW Link didn't use while not alienating players. Besides the sequel coming out, it's not hard to see why people like the idea. The Champion abilities are a great way to change her up, and also have slight similarities to the Goddess Spells(Daruk's Protection and Revali's Gale mainly being easy stand-ins for Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind to a small degree).

 

[ROBnWatch]

I heard they made a movie about him.

You joke, but that movie was actually one of the main inspirations for my idea, specifically for R.O.B.'s personality.

BTW, off-topic, but watch WALL*E. Such a good movie.

You said it. Such a great, fun film with a truly satisfying story that is so unexpected considering the characters are robots who don’t even talk for like a solid 20 minutes into the film. Combined with the emotion, message, and ending…such a good movie.

…

Oh right, Smash talk. Uh…how bout that R.O.B. character? Maybe he should have a stage, ya know?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

My guess with characters is that Sakurai and Devs make recommendations, but Nintendo always has final say.

We know Sakurai really wanted to put Byleth in, but we also know Nintendo had final say whether they got in. We know that despite Sakurai not knowing how to include Minecraft or Tekken, Nintendo (and to a lesser extent Harada) told him to anyway.

It seems like Sakurai has a minor amount of sway as to who becomes DLC, but Nintendo is calling the shots and makes the big decisions.

 

[FreeFox]

I dont know. After seeing Steve´s presentation, it seems Sakurai´s feedback and influence its mainly related to the character´s chances of translating well to smash. As in, if he cant make the character work, then it´s not added. To further bring this point, we also have Heihachi´s situation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My guess with characters is that Sakurai and Devs make recommendations, but Nintendo always has final say.

We know Sakurai really wanted to put Byleth in, but we also know Nintendo had final say whether they got in. We know that despite Sakurai not knowing how to include Minecraft or Tekken, Nintendo and Harada told him to anyway.

It seems like Sakurai has a minor amount of sway as to who becomes DLC, but Nintendo is calling the shots and makes the big decisions.

The thing is? There's nothing to suggest Sakurai makes a single recommendation at all.

It's hardly impossible, but zero evidence leads to it at this time.

He did explain his sway; "I choose whether the character is possible to be added." Which makes sense. If he couldn't include Steve, simply put, he wouldn't be in. He found a way. He made it clear he has the power to deny any such character. We just can tell his personal bias has nothing to do with why. Pass 1 had zero moveset issues(he didn't say others couldn't have been denied, just everyone who was possibly denied weren't due to moveset issues). He made no such statement in Pass 2. Whether someone was specifically denied cause of that we wouldn't know, though. He doesn't speak up much more on denied characters, likely to avoid bad blood among various companies. Even his Geno statements are "didn't work out" with zero details when it came to Brawl.

The only tiny possibility is Sakurai is lying and using this as a PR statement to get people off his back. The thing is? He has no real reason to do that when he already ignores ridiculous complaints(he doesn't ignore constructive criticisms), but even then, he can't actually respond much to them at all. He has to watch what he says, after all.

 

[PSIGuy]

My guess with characters is that Sakurai and Devs make recommendations, but Nintendo always has final say.

We know Sakurai really wanted to put Byleth in, but we also know Nintendo had final say whether they got in. We know that despite Sakurai not knowing how to include Minecraft or Tekken, Nintendo (and to a lesser extent Harada) told him to anyway.

You've got it backwards. If Sakurai can't realize a character in-game... you can't just cram them in. He has to be able to veto any request on the sole grounds that he can't direct what he doesn't understand.

 

[Will]

If Sakurai says no to a character because he can't think of a way to program them, then there's a good chance he'd think of one in the future.

You know, based on the fact that there are at least five I can think of who were in that exact same situation at some point in the past.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

The thing is? There's nothing to suggest Sakurai makes a single recommendation at all.

It's hardly impossible, but zero evidence leads to it at this time.

He did explain his sway; "I choose whether the character is possible to be added." Which makes sense. If he couldn't include Steve, simply put, he wouldn't be in. He found a way. He made it clear he has the power to deny any such character. We just can tell his personal bias has nothing to do with why. Pass 1 had zero moveset issues(he didn't say others couldn't have been denied, just everyone who was possibly denied weren't due to moveset issues). He made no such statement in Pass 2. Whether someone was specifically denied cause of that we wouldn't know, though. He doesn't speak up much more on denied characters, likely to avoid bad blood among various companies. Even his Geno statements are "didn't work out" with zero details when it came to Brawl.

The only tiny possibility is Sakurai is lying and using this as a PR statement to get people off his back. The thing is? He has no real reason to do that when he already ignores ridiculous complaints(he doesn't ignore constructive criticisms), but even then, he can't actually respond much to them at all. He has to watch what he says, after all.

Well, we know he adores Persona 5 and SNK. He played 3 Houses before it was officially released. I doubt all of those inclusions came by via coincidence. Then theres Yabuki saying he wanted Min Min, and Sakurai saying he was debating between her and Ninjara. It really does seem like Sakurai can at least give suggestions on what he thinks are good ideas. Fair point on Minecraft and Tekken, I forgot that quote.

 

[SharkLord]

Probably unrelated to the current topic, but I've picked up Ys IX lately. It's extremely fun, as one would expect from Falcom. Copying my thoughts from the Adol thread because I am not gonna re-write all of this a second time

Finally got Ys IX a couple days ago and I'm loving it so far.

Compared to VIII's more metroidvania-esque style, it feels more like an open-world game (Or at least, what I presume an open-world game would be like); The emphasis is less on combat and filling out the map and more on the movement options and searching the buildings of Balduq for secrets. While I kinda prefer the map-filling emphasis - And the more prominent music, as Ys IX's exploration often has more atmospheric tracks - It's still immense fun being able to run around and zip across the map with the Monstrum Gifts. It's especially nice because Ys VIII's Adventuring Gear was limited to slots, while Ys IX's Gifts and double jump are always available once you get the corresponding Monstrum.

Since you're in a populated city and not a deserted island, Ys IX trades in the fishing minigame and the castaways in favor of graffiti messages and Azure Petals. I kinda miss seeing all the different fish species, but I can see why that might be an issue in a bustling city. On the bright side, you can also transform into a Monstrum in public despite them being considered outlaws and run into people while you're dashing around, which is an endless source of laughs. The Beast Raids and Hunts are turned into the Grimwald Nox events, which gate progression with magic barriers and require you to fill up the gauge to play them. That being said, if you're like me and you complete all the sidequests while beating up any enemies you find, it's not at all intrusive. Though, as mentioned below, it feels like the combat just blazes by compared to Ys VIII.

Combat kinda takes a backseat here in favor of the exploration. In Balduq, it's limited to little pockets, and so the bulk of the action is limited to the dungeons. Generally you're spending more time in the city than the dungeons, but the Gifts are just so free so it's kinda hard to notice. That said, it feels like the enemies in IX are noticeably less tanky than in VIII, and the Skills require a lot more SP, but they also feel a fair bit stronger as well. Overall, you're just gonna be exploring a lot more than you're gonna be fighting. It's kind of a shame, but given that feeling of freedom and power the Monstrum powers give you, it's far from a deal-breaker.

The writing and cutscenes feel more engaging than VIII's. Maybe it's the increased interactions that come from being in the city and not a deserted island. Or maybe it's just the comedy of Hawk's unrepentant sociopathic antics and everyone's reactions to them. It's especially funny if you get his voice clip ("Who gives a crap?") when finding a landmark... Such as, y'know, Memorial Tree. Perfectly-timed voice clips aside, the cutscenes feel a lot less stiff and reliant on just talking with occasional movements. Movements are more dynamic and consistent, and in chapter three we actually get a quick but pretty well-done fight scene. Overall, the story just grabs me more.

The music feels like a notable downgrade. Not that it's bad, but the tunes don't really jump out as much. Granted, the overworld is mostly just ambient tunes since there isn't much fighting, but still. Apparently Falcom's recent music is a big source or debate in the fandom, Singa's compositions especially. I'm not that upset about it, but yeah, comparing the old songs to what we have now I feel like modern Falcom's guitars are a bit off. It's kinda tricky to describe it, but they sound a bit rougher, less clean, more obviously synthesized. Again, not that I dislike the newer songs, but the mid-2000's/early 2010's just have a crisper, cleaner sound to them overall.
That said, even if I feel Ys IX has one of the weaker soundtracks compared to Ys' history, there's definitely some bangers in here. Sticking to just the songs I've gotten to (Midway through chapter four, for context)...

Spoiler

And that's my thoughts so far. I'll start adding more as I go on (Maybe).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, we know he adores Persona 5. He outright said he really wanted Byleth in their presentation. I doubt both of those things came by via coincidence. Then theres Yabuki saying he wanted Min Min, and Sakurai saying he was debating between her and Ninjara. It really does seem like Sakurai can at least give suggestions on what he thinks are good ideas. Fair point on Minecraft and Tekken, I forgot that quote.

I do think they're coincidences. The thing is? Byleth is an important character in the latest FE game. Joker is from a pretty big game. Both are extremely easy suggestions for Nintendo to make. At most, it just means Sakurai was a lot easier to convince to get them. Also, he noted nobody in Pass 1 was his personal choice either. Despite liking Byleth and Persona 5, he had other thoughts. Min Min might be the only person choice of his among the entire Pass, even. A very lucky coincidence.

That said, with the new Tekken information, maybe that giant list of ARMS characters was also shown to Sakurai. So he had a very clear set of characters Nintendo thinks would be fine(so they still chose them in some way), and he went to Yabuki for ideas. Both he and Yabuki happened to like Min Min, and that's all there was to it. This still fits to a degree, even less than I think is the most realistic. We aren't too clear on the details. Before Tekken, this wouldn't fit very well. On the other hand, that giant list was probably unrelated and only a few were likely shown to Sakurai(Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, Min Min, probably. They're the biggest ones among fans in general, as well as the first two being the mascots). It seems more like the list was created later on in order to help promote ARMS' demo, which is why the mystery character thing came up. As I said before in some topics, Min Min's massive delay in no way could've been considered literally a year beforehand. She was likely already scheduled early enough that originally that they didn't need something to tide people over. The whole guessing game actually makes sense it was came up with around December when they learned how much time Min Min was originally going to take, and let's be real; people having a complete drought for months on end is not a good way to get the start of the pass selling. So they had to give us something. Even without the delays, there was little to show. Besides that, we already saw that Pass 2 was following a new philosophy of "reveal and then release very very soon afterwards", and Min Min didn't fit that very well at that point. Now whether or not they figured this with Pass 1's tedious wait for B&K was a problem, or that they think it's a better business model anyway, is hard to say.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Until Sakurai or someone else comes out and explains how the DLC selections are handled, and who has power over what, we can't really get any concrete answers. So far, all we know is Nintendo is choosing the characters, Sakurai has the ability to veto them if he can't see them working in the game... and that's basically it from what has been stated on the matter. Anything beyond that is just speculation.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I always had an idea for a Kid Icarus Uprising-esque revival for R.O.B., though admittedly I don't know how good my pitch actually is...

Let's hear it then!

 

[pupNapoleon]

To say the least, the Crash Bash is what I refer to as the Tournament Popularity Poll. If that's what made Yabuki want her, it makes sense. It means she's the big fan want, and by that point, things have changed for Smash Bros. itself. This alone could also influence her becoming the next mascot, too. I mean, how do you think Fulgore became Killer Instinct's official Mascot? Or Nightmare? Fan popularity changed things. They weren't from the start, after all. Etc.

In general- character based games like Animal Crossing, or Pokemon, or Fighting Games (Scorpion), are created by fan popularity over time.
This isn't to say marketing plays no role, as they tend to feed each other.

It is very clear that Nintendo decides the main aspects of what would be included in each pack, mainly the game they are choosing to represent, but I imagine Sakurai is given freedom to decide how they go about doing that.

Well, I agree with a lot of your posts- but it is also pretty clear that Joker and Terry only got in because of Sakurai.

No, because that doesn't work.

That would mean Sakurai is "choosing the character". The hard statement is that Nintendo is choosing each character. There is no actual plausible case where Sakurai could've chosen who the ARMS character was. He was told Min Min straight out in every scenario that makes sense within the actual information fully given.

He can consider who he wants to begin with. He had zero power to actually make that consideration useful. He was going to go with whatever Nintendo and Yabuki said, regardless, as long as he can make them work. That's the point behind the selection process.

We know the hard narrative is Nintendo is choosing the characters. All this shows is that Nintendo actually gave Sakurai a small list of Tekken choices, but they still were choosing who the options were(as a possibility.). Sakurai couldn't just go with anyone he wanted. He didn't get told "Franchise" in itself. He clearly had to have a specific set. Otherwise Nintendo can't be choosing the characters, can they?

That's where any idea Sakurai has more than veto power starts to fall apart. The narrative didn't change, and Sakurai hammered it home from time and time again.

Don't forget Sakurai also goes out of his way to discuss each character. So if it wasn't another bonus character at one point(which was likely what Steve was going to be, if only cause he was in talks for five years, making him the most likely option for that concept), then it means Nintendo did make a list, a concept that was shot down due to Sakurai's previous statements of "Nintendo is choosing the characters" but also a lack of evidence. Now there's evidence. Nintendo giving a short list of Tekken choices does make sense within the narrative, and Sakurai has to consider which one of the two he thinks is better. In this scenario, Nintendo is choosing the characters, and Sakurai has veto power, which both are exactly what he's said before. I don't see why it would be some odd thing with Sakurai having more power than he says he does. He's not going to lie about it. He's going to be very honest over how it went. The worst that happened is that the translation is very awkward and he simply didn't say it all exactly as it happened, but still gave us relevant information that makes it easy to put together to be accurate to his previous statements.

There's no evidence where Sakurai actually could've chosen a character outright without Nintendo first suggesting it. That scenario wouldn't exist at this point. Not within the normal Pass characters. ARMS is just what it is. Yabuki requested Min Min, Nintendo said yes, or the other way around, Nintendo asked Yabuki for who he wanted, Yabuki said Min Min. Both scenarios make way more sense. Sakurai, again, can consider whoever he wants as cool pass ideas or bonus characters. It was made clear he doesn't control them outside of saying yes or no to a character Nintendo gives to him as an option. All this really proves is that both Kazuya and Heihachi were given to Sakurai as an option(assuming no bonus character shenanigans). ...That's not farfetched. That's pretty much... how simple it is.

I don't want to bring up the whole conversation again, but in short- the Director of Persona (or the Brand Manager) directly said that Sakurai asked for Joker because Sakurai loved the game. Sakurai has mentioned that both Persona and King of Fighters were extreme inspirations for Smash Ultimate. What I will call 'Rules of PR' more than reasonably state why Sakurai would not take responsibility for choosing characters (stated death threats coming to mind, especially since Sakurai said Nintendo chose characters in the exact Tweet series where he condemned English Speakers and their aggressive requests). It is also of note that Sakurai said "Nintendo chose," but what that means is that it wasn't solely him- as far as Smash is concerned, Sakurai is a part of NIntendo, as he is a contracted employee.
A metaphor: One player on a sports team scores the goal. He says 'It wasn't me, it was the whole team.' To some extent, it is true- the whole team made the score possible. But ultimately, yes- one person did shoot for it.

So, at minimum- Nintendo 'chose' the characters is not a hard fact. It is flatly impossible to say "there is no evidence" on this front, when the director of Brand Management flat out said "Sakurai chose."
At maximum- it is, in some cases, a direct lie- like the next Switch upgrade not existing, then getting the OLED a month later. I highly encourage you to read more into the entire premise of what Public Relations is, because it is quite naive, from my point of view, to take any company, organization, corporation... at specific face value. The goal of PR is not to be completely transparent with a company- it is to make sure that pertinent information is given to make sure that the company is still maintaining a good relationship with the public. There is nothing for Sakurai to gain from claiming ownership of choosing the characters (and in reality, he would have to get them approved by Nintendo, anyway). However, there are a lot of logical reasons why Sakurai would not want to put the target onto his back as the deadset decider of who gets into Smash. Ultimately- it isn't a lie to say that it comes down to Nintendo choosing, but it isn't really looking at the whole picture to ignore how much say Sakurai seems to have in the decision making.

The only character I think was requested by name was Sephiroth, because he's not necessarily the first thought for another FF character, but makes plenty of sense from a corprate perspective

Uh.... isn't he? If given the prompt, "choose another FF character," who else comes to mind?

 

[pupNapoleon]

DOUBLE POST

 

[Jocario Zero]

Speaking of mechs and mecha based characters, I would love to see either Gaige or Moze from Borderlands in Smash. Gaige has a robot companion that basically acts like a separate partner character where Moze has a huge power suit that she rides.

"I say MECHRO, you say MANCER. MECHRO! ...You guys suck!"

Girl builds a killer robot; only gets third place in a science fair and ends up killing her biggest rival/ bully by "accident". God, I love Gaige.
And god bless Cherami Leigh and Rieke Werner (her german VA) for their performance.

Pic of the Day:

1985年のきょう､ファミリーコンピューターロボット(Robotic Operating Buddy)発売!!
じつは､昨年おめでとう投稿しています｡つまり一周回ってきてしまいました｡
今後はどうすべきか…。
まだご紹介していないタイトルもいろいろあるのですよね。#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/SNAiE3nOwf

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 26, 2021

R.O.B. made his debut on store shelves 36 years ago today!

R.O.B. is so underappreciated, not just in smash but in general and I would pay good money to have him get another game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't want to bring up the whole conversation again, but in short- the Director of Persona (or the Brand Manager) directly said that Sakurai asked for Joker because he loved the game. Sakurai has mentioned that both Persona and King of Fighters were extreme inspirations for Smash Ultimate. What I will call 'Rules of PR' more than reasonably state why Sakurai would not take responsibility for choosing characters (stated death threats coming to mind, especially since Sakurai said Nintendo chose characters in the exact Tweet series where he condemned English Speakers and their aggressive requests).

So, at minimum- Nintendo 'chose' the characters is not a hard fact.
At maximum- it is, in some cases, a direct lie- like the next Switch upgrade not existing, then getting the OLED a month later.

Uh.... isn't he? If given the prompt, "choose another FF character," who else comes to mind?

You are aware that Sakurai is the core person talking to the IP holders quite often because he's the Director of Smash? That isn't evidence of a thing. Nintendo tells Sakurai Joker is a character he can add. Sakurai finds it plausible. Sakurai talks to the Director of Joker requesting the IP be used. Of course the person who has a massive amount of clout will often do the requests in person. It's been that way for tons of Directors of Fighting Games. It's how talks happen. Sakurai constantly does the request himself, with Nintendo there with him to help figure out the Licensing details, since, well, obviously he doesn't own Smash Bros. in itself and thus cannot pay for the licensing in the same way. It's not like he's just given a budget. It's been noted Nintendo is constantly part of the negotiations for obvious reasons.

Not exactly some weird events that remotely contradict it.

There's no "rules of PR" crap. It's not PR at this point. Yes, it's a hard fact that completely fits the situation.

It's a stretch to say that Sakurai magically told Nintendo to add Joker. When it's been stated as still the other way around. He's not taking responsibility for choosing a character because he didn't choose a character. You're trying to create a false narrative despite data saying constantly otherwise.

The only new data is that we finally have some remote evidence that Sakurai could've been given a list of options. That's it. Nothing else has changed. Sakurai is still told who to add by Nintendo, whether it's via a small list for a franchise or just a straight character, which they go over each character individually anyway. It's been this way for every single Pass character. Only Bonus Characters at best(besides just Piranha Plant) would've gone a bit differently, and only Steve even has some evidence he might've been attempted unrelated to the pass at first(5 years of negotiations).

 

[pupNapoleon]

You are aware that Sakurai is the core person talking to the IP holders quite often because he's the Director of Smash? That isn't evidence of a thing. Nintendo tells Sakurai Joker is a character he can add. Sakurai finds it plausible. Sakurai talks to the Director of Joker requesting the IP be used. Of course the person who has a massive amount of clout will often do the requests in person. It's been that way for tons of Directors of Fighting Games. It's how talks happen. Sakurai constantly does the request himself, with Nintendo there with him to help figure out the Licensing details, since, well, obviously he doesn't own Smash Bros. in itself and thus cannot pay for the licensing in the same way. It's not like he's just given a budget. It's been noted Nintendo is constantly part of the negotiations for obvious reasons.

Not exactly some weird events that remotely contradict it.

There's no "rules of PR" crap. It's not PR at this point. Yes, it's a hard fact that completely fits the situation.

It's a stretch to say that Sakurai magically told Nintendo to add Joker. When it's been stated as still the other way around. He's not taking responsibility for choosing a character because he didn't choose a character. You're trying to create a false narrative despite data saying constantly otherwise.

The only new data is that we finally have some remote evidence that Sakurai could've been given a list of options. That's it. Nothing else has changed. Sakurai is still told who to add by Nintendo, whether it's via a small list for a franchise or just a straight character, which they go over each character individually anyway. It's been this way for every single Pass character. Only Bonus Characters at best(besides just Piranha Plant) would've gone a bit differently, and only Steve even has some evidence he might've been attempted unrelated to the pass at first(5 years of negotiations).

I'm sorry, but if the direct statement of a head rep for Atlus isn't considered a fact (which, you could choose not to weigh at all, but to instead say it isn't contrary to what Sakurai said, or that it didn't happen, is to defy that reality in entirety), then we aren't going to find middle ground. At this point, you are choosing to believe what you call a hard narrative, as if the world exists in black and white. There is a LOT of evidence that Sakurai had a lot of say in who was chosen. It's fine to make your own conclusions with all of the evidence, but if you choose to just ignore the reality that other factors exist, then that's all on you, and does not paint a representative picture.

For the record, I never said Sakurai "magically told Nintendo to add Joker." I said Sakurai chose Joker- as in, Sakurai is the reason Joker was added, that if there were another director of Smash, it is unlikely Joker would be in.
This could be as simple as Sakurai being adamant about wanting the character, then going to "the board" and highly encouraging the character. It could just be Nintendo asking Sakurai to choose a character he really wants, and to come back to see if they could make it happen. It could be a lot of things. The whole story is rarely a simple fact.

 

[zumaddy]

I have a wild prediction to throw into this thread: the next DLC character will have a good matchup against DK

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm sorry, but if the direct statement of a head rep for Atlus isn't considered a fact (which, you could choose not to weigh at all, but to instead say it isn't contrary to what Sakurai said, or that it didn't happen, is to defy that reality in entirety), then we aren't going to find middle ground. At this point, you are choosing to believe what you call a hard narrative, as if the world exists in black and white. There is a LOT of evidence that Sakurai had a lot of say in who was chosen. It's fine to make your own conclusions with all of the evidence, but if you choose to just ignore the reality that other factors exist, then that's all on you, and does not paint a representative picture.

For the record, I never said Sakurai "magically told Nintendo to add Joker." I said Sakurai chose Joker- as in, Sakurai is the reason Joker was added, that if there were another director of Smash, it is unlikely Joker would be in.
This could be as simple as Sakurai being adamant about wanting the character, then going to "the board" and highly encouraging the character. It could just be Nintendo asking Sakurai to choose a character he really wants, and to come back to see if they could make it happen. It could be a lot of things. The whole story is rarely a simple fact.

It's considered a fact he asked the Director. It doesn't mean Sakurai chose Joker before Nintendo did. That would be a contradiction to the facts also given.

Sakurai didn't choose Joker in the way you keep saying he did. Sakurai chose Joker because Nintendo suggested it. No more. No less. If Nintendo didn't give him the name, Joker would not be in.

Those are the facts we know of. Because that's what the information links up to.

I'm choosing to ignore a bad interpretation of the events because they hard contradict all the official statements.

No, he didn't "encourage the character". Nintendo chose Joker in the first place. Sakurai liked the idea. He went to the director of Atlus to figure out negotiations. That's really every story in general for 3rd parties and wouldn't change to begin with. That's Sakurai's job as Director. He's there to talk to the IP holders with Nintendo there by his side because they are required for licensing too.

You are literally saying that Sakurai tried to get Nintendo to add Joker as a possible scenario. Describing it as a "magical" moment in that sentence is pretty much no different from the scenario you keep trying to create which is impossible within the actual realm of possibility. It'd be a great thing in another reality, but it's most definitely not the one we live in. Unfortunately Sakurai did not get a say in figuring out the characters in the Pass before Nintendo did. Every character he has added, that wasn't at best a possible Bonus character(as Sakurai did mention 1 or 2 at most were intended besides PP), were still chosen by Nintendo. This only makes sense if they, you know, chose it first? Sakurai being a huge fan of Persona 5 at best means Nintendo looked at the game by knowing it might be worth considering with simply the knowledge Sakurai has good taste. That's a reasonable influence for the company. The fact it won awards and is a very big hit, putting Persona as a series on the map is yet another reason. Then there's the fact they were also working with Atlus to get more games out. Hmm. There's business and reasons beyond Sakurai suggesting a character(when he's always stated Nintendo suggested the character first). Yeah, not seeing any realm of possibility Joker could've suggested the character first in any way. The evidence nor facts match up with what you're portraying.

They're also not PR statements and never were. They're him stating a fact to make it clear it is what it is. You can bet that Sakurai would've loved to choose lots of characters himself. He already said no one in Pass 1 was his personal choice. How could he have suggested Joker in this scenario? Despite not wanting him? That doesn't add up at this point. So no, I don't find your scenario plausible here. You're ignoring even more information we have and basically taking one small statement as far more separated than it ever was. I can't ignore the actual context behind a lot of this and label it as "PR" when that doesn't fit what's going on.

Regardless. you haven't convinced me of a thing is different beyond "well, Sakurai actually could've gotten a list", which is a big deal in itself. Doesn't really change the narrative that's a fact either way, but it does shed more light on the process a bit. But only a bit. It'll have to be a "agree to disagree" scenario, but all the evidence only slightly changed the information we have anyway. We already knew most of the process. The only thing people suggested at any point was that Sakurai was shown a list of characters. The Tekken thing at least confirms how that can be possible. The tidbits of information have come together a lot more, while not really changing the core statements one bit. Sakurai never spoke of whether a list was shown to him or not at any point, but now we know he has been given choices for a franchise(Tekken), unless that was the other potential bonus character(Steve being almost guaranteed the original bonus plan after Pass 1), anyway. But multiple characters could've been a bonus among Pass 2, so it isn't like figuring out the other one has any real evidence to it. Sephiroth could've been a bonus at one point, but changed to a Pass character so Nintendo and Sakurai can gain more Final Fantasy 7 content. Kazuya was chosen over Heihachi(by Sakurai, as he wasn't a Pass character, though the fact Nintendo suggest Tekken(with obviously a list of candidates as well, anyway), means it was unlikely to be a bonus character as is. Pyra/Mythra might've made sense, assuming the Rex costume was never related to the character process at the time. Meaning that Rex having a costume had zero bearing on Pyra/Mythra being chosen. Rex was going to be part of the overall character similar to Pokemon Trainer from the start. Min Min could've been requested by Yabuki a while back, around when DLC was discussed. This is the only way Sakurai could've actually been requested by Yabuki alone, without Nintendo, to add her.

And that's even if a second bonus character was actually far beyond "I think this would be cool". At the very least, one was intended, otherwise Sakurai couldn't even say it, since that's a huge character information. He's not privy to dropping secrets like that due to Nintendo limiting what he can say. It doesn't mean what he says is PR statements either. It just means he can't give away tons of developer information or plans anymore. He's far more limited, and being Nintendo is choosing all the Pass characters(without Sakurai suggesting them first. And beyond hard confirmed that no bonus character/idea was reused for Pass 1 too) anyway, it's even harder for him to talk about the processes. He can't step on any toes/create bad blood. He used to be extremely open about considered characters. He barely talked about Ultimate's other choices. Decidueye was heavily considered. That's the only one that even falls into that category among the rest of Ultimate.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

And we're back

 

[SNEKeater]

Mortal Kombat 11 has sold 12 million of copies

Also:

For reference:

Mortal Kombat - 73 million units
Smash Bros. - 65.1 million units (March 31, 2021)
Tekken - 51 million units (April 2021)
Street Fighter - 46 million units (March 31, 2021) https://t.co/f0mhQLMzeM

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) July 26, 2021

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Mortal Kombat 11 has sold 12 million of copies

Also:

For reference:

Mortal Kombat - 73 million units
Smash Bros. - 65.1 million units (March 31, 2021)
Tekken - 51 million units (April 2021)
Street Fighter - 46 million units (March 31, 2021) https://t.co/f0mhQLMzeM

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) July 26, 2021

MK is the best selling Fighting game series?
Hes in.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Scorpion mii costume, plz?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Crashboards.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

The results of the latest poll by INSIDE (gaming news site) just came out.

https://www.inside-games.jp/article/2021/07/26/133601.html

Q. What is the character you want for the very last DLC of Smash Ultimate?

1. Sora - 377 votes
2. Bandana Waddle Dee - 174 votes
3. 2B - 157 votes
4. Reimu Hakurei - 141 votes
5. Arle Nadja - 90 votes
6. Crash Bandicoot - 78 votes
7. Hunter - 72 votes
8. Cinderace - 57 votes
9. Imposter - 50 votes
10. Masahiro Sakurai - 48 votes

Spoiler: The result of the last time (Februaty 2020 / after Byleth)

1. Sora - 290 votes
2. Dante - 91 votes
3. Hunter - 80 votes
4. Rex - 74 votes
5. 2B - 70 votes
6. Crash Bandicoot - 65 votes
7. Bandana Waddle Dee - 64 votes
8. Sephiroth - 59 votes
9. Arle Nadja - 56 votes
10. Steve - 55 votes
11. Artoria Pendragon - 52 votes
12. Kirito - 50 votes
13. Reimu Hakurei - 42 votes
14. Son Goku - 32 votes
15. Geno - 26 votes

https://www.inside-games.jp/article/2020/02/26/127623.html

And here are the honorable mentions who didn't quite get many votes but still interested the editor.

Saber (Artoria Pendragon)
Scorpion
Amaterasu
Reisalin Stout
Kazuma Kiryu
Arthur
Doom Slayer
Dante
Ryu Hayabusa
Itsuki Aoi & Mirage Chrom
Ratchet & Clank
Fall Guys
Agent Jones (Jonesy)
Master Chief
ICEY
Iori Yagami
KOS-MOS
Sol Badguy
Taboo
Palico
Demi-fiend
Agumon
Adol Christin
Yoiko (Japanese comedian)
INSIDE-chan