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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Adrianette Bromide

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Being fair on Roy.
  1. He was a late addition alongside the other clones, not part of the original plan. So he wasn't really treated in the same way.
  2. Roy's game got delayed while Melee was rushed and crunched, leading to the latter coming out four months before the former. And given that this was the early 2000s, there probably weren't easy ways four two studios to properly communicate on a constant basis like we do today.
And we never saw a situation like this ever again with the exception of Lucas being from a Japan-exclusive game when Sakurai assumed he'd have an international release.

But these aren't arguments in favor of EMMI or Nahobino. Rather instances of Sakurai messing up, which likely led to him being more careful with his choices.
Fair argument, well written and I get it. Corrin at least came out in Japan at the time although Corrin still came out earlier than the localization of Fates. Who really knows and besides, I think they'd pick Demi-fiend over Nahobino for legacy purposes.
 

Theguy123

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The Kingdom Hearts series as it is known is with characters from Square Enix and Disney. I read somewhere that Sora besides the fact that the Kingdom Hearts series has Disney characters, another reason that he does not come in Super Smash Bros. because Disney itself does not allow it.
Negotiating with Disney is probably a kill joy. They ruined club penguin out of greed and then when the original maker of CP tried to buy it back off them they refused to sell up. Would take a miracle to get sora In smash
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Fair argument, well written and I get it. Corrin at least came out in Japan at the time although Corrin still came out earlier than the localization of Fates. Who really knows and besides, I think they'd pick Demi-fiend over Nahobino for legacy purposes.
Yeah, despite Splatoon and Xenoblade X coming out a month before Fates in Japan, Corrin was chosen.

And Elma could've still served a promotional purpose like Corrin since Xenoblade X had only come out two weeks before the Final Smash Direct while Inkling could've absolutely been the new fresh character representing a new IP.

Fire Emblem just happened to be bigger than Xenoblade and a safer pick than a brand new IP that, at the time of choosing the character, was only weeks old if even that.

This is a sign of Sakurai taking less risks when it comes to upcoming stuff.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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Yeah, Crono would be awesome if they designed his moveset around dual techs. I would actually prefer Magus to Crono but that’s really unlikely to ever happen.
Magus' ability to change his element in his boss fights could've actually led to some really awesome shenanigans if translated into a Smash moveset.
 
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Gengar84

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Magus' ability to change his element in his boss fights could've actually led to some really awesome shenanigans if translated into a Smash moveset.
I actually made a complete moveset for him that utilized that for his neutral special. Basically it rotates between Lightning, Ice, and Fire on a cycle and each attack has different uses.

Here it is for anyone interested:

Gimmicks and other Traits

Magus floats for his running animation similar to Sephiroth and teleports for his dodge roll. Magus has a similar tipper mechanic to Marth where most of the damage from his scythe attacks is caused by the tip rather than the handle. Magus also has a float jump similar to Princess Peach, but he gradually descends rather than floats at the same altitude. Most of Magus’ attributes are very similar to Sephiroth.

Weak attacks

Jab: Magus holds his hand forward and zaps the opponent with two small shocks followed by a final more powerful blast.

Forward Tilt: Magus swings his scythe horizontally and catches any opponent it connects with. He then scrapes his scythe across the ground, dragging the opponent before sending them flying in the opposite direction.

Up Tilt: Magus pokes his scythe upward and hits the opponent with the spike on the top

Down Tilt: Magus performs a low sweep across the ground with his scythe.

Smash Attacks

Up Smash – Geyser – Magus summons a pillar of light at roughly the height of Palutena’s up smash and unleashes several spirits that fly upwards and damage enemies. This attack doesn’t have much knockback but it has very good range.

Down Smash: Magus slams the handle of his scythe into the ground.

Forward Smash: Magus throws his scythe forwards, causing it to spin around and return to him, similar to Pyra’s forward special.

Specials

Neutral Special – Fire/Lighting/Ice – Magus’ neutral special rotates on a cycle between three different attacks.

  • For his fire special, Magus creates a pillar of flame a short distance in front of him at about one and a half times his height that can trap opponents and causes steady residual damage similar to Ness’ PK Fire.
  • Magus’ Lightning special summons a bolt of electricity horizontally from his hand that travels a long distance across the stage. This causes light damage but is capable of stunning opponents at high percentages.
  • Finally Magus’ Ice special summons a giant chunk of ice that travels diagonally downwards and crashes into the ground at a medium distance from him. This attack causes a lot of damage and can freeze opponents at high percentages.
Up Special - Black Hole – Magus creates a small black hole, and teleports away at a similar distance to Zelda’s teleport, creating an exit point where he emerges. This would then function like the Stage Builder warp points. The black hole would remain on the battlefield for a short time or until Magus uses another up special.

Down Special – Dark Mist – Magus unleashes a wave of dark mist that covers a wide horizontal area across the ground. This would function a lot like Palutena’s Heavenly Light custom special in that it does not cause any flinching or knockback but damages anyone caught in the mist.

Side Special – Dark Bomb – Magus sends out a glowing ball of energy that he can slightly control the trajectory of similar to Zelda’s Din’s Fire move which then detonates into an sphere of negative energy that deals heavy damage and knockback.

Running Attack

Magus swings his scythe upwards

Aerials

Neutral Air: Magus holds his arms outstretched and surrounds himself in dark energy similar to Mewtwo’s neutral air.

Up Air: Magus swings his scythe in an arc above him similar to Sephiroth.

Forward Air: Magus swings his scythe diagonally downwards and catches opponents whom he flings backwards.

Back Air: Magus stabs backward with the handle of his scythe.

Down Air: Magus jabs downards with the spike at the end of his scythe which can spike opponents.

Throws

Grab and Pummel: Magus traps his opponents in a sphere of dark energy and electrifies it as a pummel.

Up Throw: Magus throws the orb upwards causing it to explode and the opponent to go flying outward.

Down Throw: Magus slams the orb into the ground which causes it to explode.

Forward Throw: Magus propels the orb forward and tosses his scythe through it like a javelin, causing it to explode.

Back Throw: Magus teleports the orb behind him, causing it to explode.

Final Smash

Final Smash – Dark Matter – This is based on Magus’ most powerful skill in Chrono Trigger. Magus envelops the opponent in darkness with his cape. This starts out a lot like Meta Knight’s final Smash. It then transports anyone caught to a cutscene that causes massive damage to each of these opponents with a massive spinning triangle of dark energy.

Taunts

Taunt 1 – Magus crosses his arms and floats upwards as he says “The black wind howls.”

Taunt 2 – Magus tightens his glove as his says “Do you hear that? It’s the sound of the reaper.”

Taunt 3 – Magus’ scythe circles around him, floating in the air.

Victory Quotes

“Nothing can live forever.”

“The weak always strive to be weaker.”

“You got whacked ‘cuz you’re weak.”
 
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Ivander

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Off-topic, but to those of you not watching the opening to the Olympic games, please do.

The Parade of Nations is literally just video game music and I'm loving it.

So far:
  • Dragon Quest
  • Final Fantasy
  • Phantasy Star
  • Sonic
  • Kingdom Hearts
  • Monster Hunter
  • Nier
  • Soul Calibur
  • Chrono Trigger
And a few others I couldn't identify.
I'm going to need a video at some point.

That said, apparently, the song used for Phantasy Star was this one. And it was easy to find because when you try to search it on Youtube, it pops up quickly, showing that I'm not the only one who's searched for it.
A track originally from Phantasy Star Universe, but it's also used in Phantasy Star Online 2.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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The Kingdom Hearts series as it is known is with characters from Square Enix and Disney. I read somewhere that Sora besides the fact that the Kingdom Hearts series has Disney characters, another reason that he does not come in Super Smash Bros. because Disney itself does not allow it.
We have seen people say this over and over, its old
 

Perkilator

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The Kingdom Hearts series as it is known is with characters from Square Enix and Disney. I read somewhere that Sora besides the fact that the Kingdom Hearts series has Disney characters, another reason that he does not come in Super Smash Bros. because Disney itself does not allow it.
Can you stop shooting down Sora with baseless speculation...
FOR 5 MINUTES.jpg

FOR 5 MINUTES?!
 

Ivander

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Had a RANDOM though just now where Sakurai would "announce" 5 free to download echo fighters out of nowhere, whether you had the DLC or not

Dixie Kong for :ultdiddy:
Rock Howard for :ult_terry:
Violet for :ultjoker:
Black Shadow for :ultfalcon:
Ms. Pacman for :ultpacman:
  • Paula - :ultlucas:
  • Impa - :ultsheik:
  • Roll - :ultmegaman:
  • Octoling - :ultinkling:
  • Shadow - :ultsonic:
 

PeridotGX

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TheLamerGamer

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No, Persona and SMT don't share the same characters designers. Just clarifying this because this is basically wrong info and I wanted to clear that out to avoid other people actually believing you. Unless you're talking specifically about Persona 1 and 2, which I really doubt. Kazuma Kaneko designed the characters for those 2 games (specifically the PS1 versions, not the remakes). From that point forward it was Soejima.

For SMT, Kaneko was in charge until SMT IV, if I remember correctly. After that it was mostly Doi's work, which is the character and monster designer for SMTV.
Just a minor correction, but Kaneko designed most of the classic demons from SMT, which prominently appear in both SMT and Persona, so there is definitely crossover in their art. Some people thought the first SMT V trailer in the Switch presentation might be Persona since they only showed the demons and Japanese text, and if you've only played Persona that would be what you'd associate it with.

In the more recent trailers nobody thinks that unironically though, since the style's so different it's hard to get them mixed up.
 

PeridotGX

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Probably because so he could have Ganondorf's old moveset?
if he's closer to ganondorf, then why wouldn't he be a ganondorf echo?

Because it makes sense?

Plus, Blood Falcon isn't nearly as popular...
the proportions don't line up though. Black Shadow is bulky and wouldn't work well on captain falcon's skeleton. it would be weird if he was as fast as him. if BS has to be anything, make him a ganondorf echo. if falcon has to get an echo, do Blaziken or i guess Blood Falcon (but i don't think Falcon needs an echo)
 

Willbuysmash4mw

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1. We were never given that as a reason, you're just making stuff up to fit your weird theory. We've been told Nintendo Picks the dlc, Sakurai liking Persona 5 wasn't mentioned as a reason.

2. Yup, Sakurai never said that, because it literally didn't exist. For Hero's presentation he said they initially planned for more Fighters to have the same style of presentation as Joker, but they cost more money, and doing a Sakurai Presents is more cost effective. Once again, there isn't a weird conspiracy. And of course Joker and Persona are more well known thanks to stuff like Smash, but Persona is also infinitely more marketable than SMT, thanks to its style and gameplay.

3. That doesn't change the fact that Sephiroth's presentation is the only one to be age restricted. And the only games in that presentation were Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VII Remake and Super Mario RPG.

4. You're right, I don't know if you're right or not. But I still think it's unlikely Joker was added in late, because that just seems disorganised and incompetent of Nintendo.

5. You're saying that like I don't know what I'm talking about, even though I have actual evidence for what I'm saying. Also, this is all just for fun really, just because I haven't dedicated my life to proving my crackpot theory doesn't make me any less "qualified" to talk about stuff on here. I never said I was better than you, but complaining about my evidence being wrong (and giving an example of something that I said was nothing more than an educated guess) is really hypocritical considering some of what you've talked about is flat out wrong. Speaking of which:



This is all just made up as far as I can tell. Nobody said the final pack wasn't originally meant to be there, they said they initially only planned to do 1 or 2 extra characters, which is completely different. Pass 2 wasn't initially planned, but them making another pack was probably just because it made sense. The base game and first pass sold really well, so it made perfect sense to make more dlc no matter what characters are included.

And nobody said the final character was supposed to be in pass 1, why do you even think that? You've just made that up to fit your theory.

And saying the EMMI not having a personality is probably not the best argument considering Nahobino is a literal blank slate for you to project your morals onto. Besides, we have Steve, so that doesn't matter much. It being indestructible is a slightly bigger problem, but they don't always perfectly represent a character, especially when it comes to Metroid. Literally none of those characters function how they do in the original games.

ARMS got a character and was released in 2017, BOTW could still easily work, especially with Age of Calamity and BOTW 2.

Finally, you implied that I want all the characters I mentioned, but... I'd much rather have Nahobino than any of them. I actively don't want another Pokemon, but I know that it's more likely. I'm more active on the SMT support thread than here most of the time, but I can see why an SMT rep might not happen.

Acting like you know what Nintendo chose and why, and acting like your theory has no problems and is 100% factual is both stupid and arrogant. You seem annoyed when people argue with you on a discussion thread, when that's the entire point.

I can't tell if this is bait or not, but if it is, it isn't very good, because nobody's annoyed, you just make yourself look ignorant.
1. We weren’t given any reason, that is the point. The fact that we don’t have a reason for Joker being in Smash after years of him being in is pretty substantial evidence to create conspiracies considering we know exactly why characters like Piranha Plant, Terry and Steve are in.
2. He said that previously they have had a different format for character introductions and it is somehow cheaper for him to do the introductions himself(which I quite frankly don’t believe unless the direct announcer is asking for a ton of money because Joker’s video is obviously cheaply made with the reveal trailer being tacked on in the beginning), that doesn’t mean they weren’t planning to do this all along and the fact that he doesn’t mention Joker when he talks about this like he is some kind of elephant in the room is beyond strange. You would think he would literally say “Joker didn’t get this because...”, but instead he is just explaining why they are doing it this way now.
3. Final Fantasy VII and its remake(including Integrade) are rated Teen by the ESRB, the presentation for Sephiroth being age restricted can’t have anything to do with the game itself. Sephiroth’s reveal trailer also isn’t age restricted.
4. That is all I am saying.
5. I am saying this because you think games and characters with spirits, mii costumes and assist trophies specifically designed for Smash Ultimate have a better chance to get a fighter than a franchise with literally nothing in Smash despite that franchise and a particular game from that franchise being heavily advertised by Nintendo. Nahobino has by far the best chance out of any of the characters being discussed just by looking at Nintendo’s lineup for late 2021. And while he might be kind of a blank slight right now, the game will come out before the final character does. We will learn all about the protag, Nahobino and his friends and enemies. EMMI will always be just a robot(one of several) that doesn’t talk and it’s sole mission is to seek out and kill the things it is programmed to. It’s a mechanic for Dread, not a character.

Arms was planned to be in the base roster, you know this and just choose to bring it up as an example anyway to create some doubt in my argument that doesn’t actually exist.

BOTW has spirits and a mii costume etc and Sakurai has said nothing about it being planned for the base roster other than talking about wanting to do BOTW Zelda during the Byleth presentation and deciding against it. Sakurai specifically mentioned Xenoblade 2 and Arms’s release colliding with the development of Ultimate as the reason for why they originally didn’t get in, and BOTW doesn’t have that problem as a early 2017 game that was delayed from much earlier than that, so unlike Arms and Xenoblade 2 those spirits and that mii costume and other content is all they will put into Ultimate for BOTW.

The reason why I am saying that pack 11 wasn’t originally a part of pass 2 is because if you watch the official unveiling of the 2nd pass during the Byleth presentation pass 2 was originally just shown as 5 fighters and then pack 11 was added on to it from a separate category from either pass to make 6. This means that pack 11 could have been added to pass 1 and none of the characters in pass 2 so far have warranted its last minute existence as they are all “second chance” characters, so pack 11 has to be that character that Nintendo has to advertise to warrant doing another pass and taking 2 years almost to release it. This is the reason why I go to SMT V because if it wasn’t delayed it is entirely possible Nahobino could have been pack 5 in pass 1 and SMT V would have simply replaced Three Houses’ release and marketing in 2019 because Three Houses was heavily delayed too. And that is where my theory that Joker is a last minute add on comes in, because with Nahobino in pass 1 instead of pass 2, Joker, as he is in Ultimate becomes completely redundant as a character in a Megaten side series that is on Sony consoles only. Nahobino can literally have his trailer be about hunting Joker’s stolen Smash invitation down and taking it from him to get into Smash and it works on many levels.

Nintendo going to Atlus to get Nahobino for pass 1 only to be told that SMT V won’t be ready for pass 1 or even close to it and then either Atlus giving Joker to Nintendo to buy time or Nintendo just outright asking for him to buy time fits everything else we know so far. Joker was basically just an advertisement for a PS4 at this point, there is no reason to put Joker in and not a SMT character or any SMT content whatsoever when you are trying to advertise SMT V as a big 3rd party exclusive for the Switch.

We know the final character is going to be from a M rated game, we know the character is from a game that was massively delayed, we know Nintendo wants SMT V to succeed despite putting it up against Pokémon, we know SMT has no content in Smash unlikely most franchises with its size and legacy, and finally we know the final character will take a while and will be finished before the end of the year and can literally take until December 31st if Nintendo wants to. How SMT fans everywhere aren’t extremely giddy with the near certainty these facts provide to everyone that Nahobino is the final character is beyond me.

What is even more strange is that some SMT fans are unreasonably doubtful and others just casually talk about Nahobino being the final fighter like it is no big deal and then go on being pessimistic about SMT’s future.

l like how the topic went from talking about if people believe in M theory to people arguing whether it’s real or not and doing there best to prove or debunk it, to then people trying to argue other theories and call other people’s theories awful and then to arguing over wether joker wasn’t planned to be in FP1 to then arguing wether FP11 was planned for the pass (which it was and it’s ridiculous that people think otherwise)

What a strange turn around things have become
Read what I typed about challenger pack 11 to TheLamerGamer. It is not ridiculous at all.
 

Sucumbio

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I don't want another sword. I know that eliminates a lot but I'd rather get a unique weapon(s) fighting style. If Kazuya is to be the button crazy technical God of brawlers then the last character has to be.... Magical! Thus, I pray.

Please, let Nintendo do something amazing and wonderful and super enjoyable to tie together this incredible series of which I have played nothing else for more than a decade. In his name, I ask this Amen.
 

Theguy123

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Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnn pot theory time. The sega negotiations that we know have happened due to bayo and sonic appearing in the Sephiroth trailer is not for a sega character, it’s for mii costumes this will appear with Layton as the next character.

Each mii costumes have come in themes. We’re still missing the red shell mii costume which could’ve been scrapped but if it’s coming back then it could be an indication that the last fighter is hat themed.

Add the sega costumes into the mix. If sonic gets mii costumes then it’ll be someone like shadow, Amy, blaze etc. All known for being animals which is something that is a big part of the professor Layton games

If they chose arle instead as a mii costume, that themes to Layton as well since she’s a puzzle character

If they chose hat kid then that themes to Layton as well due to wearing hats in the game and so on.

If the supposed “no comment” comment from he fortnite makers turns out to be a gunner then that also themes into Layton since Layton uses a gun.

Guys before you get mad…….. I’m just speculating. Gotta have some hope for my guy.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Arms was planned to be in the base roster, you know this and just choose to bring it up as an example anyway to create some doubt in my argument that doesn’t actually exist.
It was never planned.

Sakurai himself said that ARMS and Xenoblade 2 were shown too late for a character from either game to be considered for the base roster.

There's a difference between "planned but scrapped" and "too late to even be planned"
 
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Willbuysmash4mw

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I don't want another sword. I know that eliminates a lot but I'd rather get a unique weapon(s) fighting style. If Kazuya is to be the button crazy technical God of brawlers then the last character has to be.... Magical! Thus, I pray.

Please, let Nintendo do something amazing and wonderful and super enjoyable to tie together this incredible series of which I have played nothing else for more than a decade. In his name, I ask this Amen.
Swords are the most common weapon type for a lot of genres of games, especially for the main protagonists. It is unreasonable to think we won’t get a ton of sword users in Smash now and in the indefinite future.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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It was never planned.

Sakurai himself said that ARMS and Xenoblade 2 were shown too late for a character from it to be considered.

There's a difference between "planned but scrapped" and "too late to even be planned"
Guess it’s better to be the latter than the former cause the latter is more likely to get a second chance… we’re probably never gonna see Dixie, Ayumi, Chorus Kids or especially Decidueye

Chrom had the ballot in his favor but unless we get another one after DLC ends…
 

RoboFist

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Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?
Hard to say for Shantae, since Smash is for good boys and girls, buy I could see Giga Mermaid being a lot more fun to fight than Risky and her Tinker ATs.

Giga_Mermaid.png

I think Neku should come with the first "big boss" of the game, both to avoid spoilers and just because it's a sick design. Like, imagine a fight that's part Rathalos and part Marx.

Noise88_-_Vespertilio_Canor.png

Amaterasu would have to come with Yami. The dude has five different forms, but I could see his boss fight starting off with his first form before just jumping to his final form...Look at this thing, he already looks like a Master Hand possessed by Dharkon, he'd fit right in!

863713-yami.jpg

Had a RANDOM though just now where Sakurai would "announce" 5 free to download echo fighters out of nowhere, whether you had the DLC or not

Dixie Kong for :ultdiddy:
Rock Howard for :ult_terry:
Violet for :ultjoker:
Black Shadow for :ultfalcon:
Ms. Pacman for :ultpacman:
Definitely Dixie Kong for :ultdiddy: and Ms. Pacman for :ultpacman:

Everyone wants Shadow for :ultsonic:, but I think Metal Sonic would be a much more appropriate and fun choice.

I think there's a way to work :ulttoonlink:'s basic moveset into a Tetra Echo, which would make me oh-so happy.

Those are the big ones for me, the fifth one could be either Medusa for :ultpalutena: or finally give :ultalph: his just dues.
 
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Ivander

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TDK (The Detachable Kid) has such a lame power it's hilarious. xD
I don't know why, but the first thing I think of with detaching as a "superpower", I think of someone getting their tongue stuck on an very cold ice pole, detaching the part of the tongue that's stuck, go to get warm water while leaving their tongue stuck on the ice, get their tongue unstuck from the ice with the warm water, then re-attach their tongue.

I don't know why that's what I think of in regards to detaching as a "superpower", but I don't think any kid tricked into licking the ice would refuse such a power in that scenario.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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That and he's a costume.
1627059232674.png

Captain Falcon does have a pallet swap based off of him, but it isn't differently named like the other character skins. There are also a few differences in Blood Falcon's garb compared to Captain Falcon's. Namely, the skull emblems instead of falcon emblems, the lack of a gun (that Captain Falcon never used anyway), and...well he wears his scarf differently in F-Zero, but Captain Falcon seems to have appropriated this style choice in Super Smash Bros. The F-Zero GX design of the character also has spikes on his pauldron and an even bigger collar. They are minor differences, but with their attention to detail, they would have made it into the final product if it was meant to be the actual Blood Falcon (save for maybe the F-Zero GX exclusive features, though they could work that design in if they wanted to).
 
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