Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Inferno7]

Kinda wish more bosses appeared at the end of characters classic mode routes instead of the Master Hand/Crazy Hand.

If Dante ever gets in I'd like Mundus to be another boss

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's slightly inaccurate to who appears at the end but...

Yeah over half the cast fights Master Hand and or Crazy Hand in their route.

EDIT: Also, nobody fights Galeem and/or Dharkon, which is strange.

Bruh she goes "I'm not even angry" at 1:00 LMAOO

Gil, meet the embodiment of sarcasm.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 sold around 2M units as of September 2020. This is 5 months before their Smash reveal in February 2021. When they were revealed for Smash, the game sold out FAST in Japan.

Also, Sony doesn't own the Persona series; Sega/Atlus does.

Point being, whether your game is a juggernaut like Minecraft or a smaller but still significant game such as Xenoblade Chronicles 2, said games' characters getting into Smash are a gateway for people to buy the fighters' homage games.

Just try to look up some information before you make an argument. Subjective evidence is never true evidence.

Xenoblade 2 got in because it was a big Nintendo game on the Switch, it could have sold 500,000 copies and it still would have gotten in because Sakurai wanted that for the base roster before it even came out. Once the 2nd pass was decided to be a thing Xenoblade 2 and Arms characters were literally guaranteed to get in.

When the game isn’t even on Nintendo consoles, however, it is much harder to break through into Smash. Sega and Atlus may own Persona but main Persona games have never been on other consoles besides Sony(that will probably change pretty soon but up until now it has been that way since the beginning during the PS1 era). Nintendo and Smash fans had largely no clue what Persona was before Joker came to Smash and mostly still have no clue what it is(that is especially obvious when they still call SMT a “Persona clone” because even the most casual Persona fan at least knows how stupid it is to say something like that).

As for Smash getting people to buy games represented by the fighters in it, that much is obvious. Persona 5 went from 2 million copies over a year after it came out in Japan to over 5 million copies because Smash gave it a second wind just before Atlus came up with the enhanced version, Persona 5 Royal and the sequel, Strikers.

 

[Ivander]

EDIT: Also, nobody fights Galeem and/or Dharkon, which is strange.

Well, that one is obvious because they wanted you to fight those bosses in World of Light first, especially to keep Dharkon a surprise, since he wasn't known until people played through World of Light. I don't see why they couldn't make Galeem and Dharkon bosses for Classic Mode after getting World of Light's True Ending first, but I can understand why they weren't in Classic in the first place.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Sales and popularity aren't the end-all-be-all when it comes to why characters get in. They definitely help, but sometimes characters are chosen for other reasons. Just look at Terry, he's not that big in those departments but Sakurai added him because he loves the character. I think the reasons why a character is chosen should be looked at on an individual basis, as they differ with each character.

Joker got in mainly for similar reasons to Terry, I feel. Persona 5's success helped, but I think it was mainly Sakurai's love for the game that got Joker in. Additionally, both games had big influences on Smash. Beating people soundly at Fatal Fury is what made Sakurai want to create a more beginner-friendly fighting game in the first place, and Persona 5's excellent UI heavily inspired Ultimate's UI.

And let's not forget the big thing:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Let's see, what if each DLC character came with a boss:

• 
  Spoiler: Dunno if a secret boss counts as a spoiler or not...

  Caroline & Justine.
  • This would be a boss that would tag team you, and could finish you off in style.
• I dunno. Probably a dragon or something.
• Gruntilda.
• Geese Howard or Omega Rugal. Probably the former.
  • Wuh-oh, SNK boss time.
• One of the Beasts.
  • Could have a mechanic where you could stun it by hitting it in the same spot over and over.
• Headlok (controlling Max Brass or Dr. Coyle).
  • You like fighting Min Min? No? Well here's 8 armed Min Min. Cower in fear.
• The Ender Dragon
  • A platforming based boss where you have to destroy the End Crystals (that explode by the way so R.I.P. melee characters) while getting harassed by Endermen before you fight the boss itself.
• Um...himself? J.E.N.O.V.A.?
• /Malos (& possibly also Jin)
  • Depending on how early or late in the game they pull the characters from, they could be a pain to fight.
• Um...I wanna say Jinpachi. I think that's the devil form type boss that Heihachi fights.

I'm actually not entirely thrilled with some of these. I think Headlok would be better as an item, and I think a generic looking boss (referring to the one for Byleth) would be fairly underwhelming, even if they picked one of the named ones (there are other options, but they're probably either spoilery, or don't entirely make sense as a boss).

 

[Guynamednelson]

If we get a Guilty Gear Rep, I would die if we get this song in the game

Personally I'd rather have the majority of songs be from XX, but with staples from Strive still thrown in like VANISH INTO DAAAAAAAAAAAARK and SOCIETY and SWALLOW, SO THAT'S ME, NON STOP LOVE SONG

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So what would you guys think of a "True Arena" for Super Smash Bros.?

1. Rayquaza
2. Rathalos
3. Dracula
4. Galleom
5. Ganon
6. Giga Bowser
7. Marx
8. Ridley
9. Duon
10. Meta Ridley
11. Porky
12. Tabuu
13. Galeem & Dharkon (phase 3 only, or at least, phase 1 and 3 only)
14. Master Hand & Crazy Hand
15. Master Core (Master Giant, Master Beast, Master Edges, Master Shadow, Master Fortress, & Master Core)

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I'm JUST saying

Imagine her as a boss

Spoiler: 0_0

A puzzle focused boss fight that you need to beat fast, or else GladOS will flood the battleground with Nerve Gas. All whilst insulting the player.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I must now go find a song so I can find out what it's called because it's great.

"SWALLOW, so that's me! Non-stop-LOVE-song!"

 

[CannonStreak]

A puzzle focused boss fight that you need to beat fast, or else GladOS will flood the battleground with Nerve Gas. All whilst insulting the player.

That makes me think: If they had a Portal stage in Smash and GladOS had her Palutena's Guidance where she insults the players, I wonder what she would say for each one?

 

[subterrestrial]

So what would you guys think of a "True Arena" for Super Smash Bros.?

1. Rayquaza
2. Rathalos
3. Dracula
4. Galleom
5. Ganon
6. Giga Bowser
7. Marx
8. Ridley
9. Duon
10. Meta Ridley
11. Porky
12. Tabuu
13. Galeem & Dharkon (phase 3 only, or at least, phase 1 and 3 only)
14. Master Hand & Crazy Hand
15. Master Core (Master Giant, Master Beast, Master Edges, Master Shadow, Master Fortress, & Master Core)

we need a boss rush mode

 

[Perkilator]

So what would you guys think of a "True Arena" for Super Smash Bros.?

1. Rayquaza
2. Rathalos
3. Dracula
4. Galleom
5. Ganon
6. Giga Bowser
7. Marx
8. Ridley
9. Duon
10. Meta Ridley
11. Porky
12. Tabuu
13. Galeem & Dharkon (phase 3 only, or at least, phase 1 and 3 only)
14. Master Hand & Crazy Hand
15. Master Core (Master Giant, Master Beast, Master Edges, Master Shadow, Master Fortress, & Master Core)

Definitely would've loved to see Boss Battles back, but...I'd prefer it like this:

1. Galleom
2. Rathalos
3. Giga Bowser
4. Master Hand
5. Marx
6. Dracula
7. Ganon
8. Crazy Hand
9. Galeem
10. Dharkon
11. Master Hand & Crazy Hand
12. Galeem & Dharkon

 

[DarthEnderX]

So what would you guys think of a "True Arena" for Super Smash Bros.?

1. Rayquaza
2. Rathalos
3. Dracula
4. Galleom
5. Ganon
6. Giga Bowser
7. Marx
8. Ridley
9. Duon
10. Meta Ridley
11. Porky
12. Tabuu
13. Galeem & Dharkon (phase 3 only, or at least, phase 1 and 3 only)
14. Master Hand & Crazy Hand
15. Master Core (Master Giant, Master Beast, Master Edges, Master Shadow, Master Fortress, & Master Core)

I think:
A. **** dem OCs. Gimmie more real bosses.
B. Master Fortress REALLY doesn't need to there. It's not even really a boss. It's just a weird dungeon that takes place in the middle of a boss.

You do realize that 5 million is not a bad sales number for a JRPG that isn't Pokemon or Final Fantasy, right?

So what you're saying is...Pokemon and Final Fantasy are the only JRPGs that deserve to be in Smash!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

"SWALLOW, so that's me! Non-stop-LOVE-song!"

Actually I already knew Disaster of Passion well so it was actually "Stay with...stay with me UNTIL THE END OF TIME! SO CARRY ON! LOVE THE SUBHUMAN SELF!"

Disaster of Passion will always be a bop though.

 

[N3ON]

It's interesting how "Sakurai loves x, which is why we got them" and "Nintendo chooses the DLC" are invoked whenever they best suit whatever point is trying to be proven, given how opposing the argument is.

Sakurai is going to speak positively about basically every game he talks about. He's spoken positively about Sonic 06 and Cyberpunk right after it launched. He's spoken positively about games we know he didn't decide to include, like Minecraft, and ones that have no content whatsoever in Smash, like Chrono Trigger, Nier Automata and Among Us.

Attributing inclusions to Sakurai's favour seems more a catch-all when there's no better reasoning to be had. Like, if you look at FP1, it's easier to explain why Hero, Banjo and Byleth were included than the two who get ascribed Sakurai favouritism. But if we didn't have those reasons, people would chalk those inclusions up to Sakurai's affinity as well, considering he's spoken positively about Dragon Quest and Fire Emblem, and reasoning such as "he even told people to go play Banjo on Xbox!" would be used to construct the angle of his Banjo fondness. Sakurai's personal preference seems to be the backup when there's no more obvious reasoning, but it's given a lot more credence than evidence implies.

Keep in mind, we often don't hear him speak on a series until that series gets attention in Smash. That creates the false impression that it's in rare company among series Sakurai prefers. But again, the truth is, when he brings up a series, he typically speaks positively about it. He just doesn't take the opportunity to broach series apropos of nothing very often, which is why it's usually in the relevant Smash context.

All I'm saying is the reasoning that being defaulted to for slightly less obvious inclusions is the opposite of the special consideration people think it was given, considering Sakurai is effusive about countless series, and actively restrains himself from speaking on more of them because people always tie it to Smash. We don't have a definitive list of "series Sakurai likes" and even if we did, it would stretch on for ages, and thus rob those listed of appearing special.

Sakurai being emphatic and complimentary about series is how he treats basically every series (as one would expect from a person in a rare and unique position that collaborates with almost every company in the industry, if only for diplomacy's sake), so it shouldn't be seen as especially germane evidence of anything. Especially because it completely disregards how much if any involvement Nintendo had in choosing these characters, which was probably more than being wholly deferential.

 

[Lyncario]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

With my most wanted being Reimu, I have some choices. Some obvious ones would be Remilia, Flandre, Yukari, or dare I say her name, Mima. While Remilia and Flandre are certainly up there for iconic Touhou bosses, having the Touhou boss being a vampire while we already have Dracula would be a bit redundant even if their boss fights wouldn't be alike, wouldn't it?

So it would leave to have Yukari as a Touhou boss as the most obvious choice, and she could be a very fun boss to fight, with her using her power over boundaries, notably her gaps to screw with the screen, teleport, rthrow trains at you, this kind of things a reality warping boss would do. She would be really tricky and fun, so navigating around what she does would be a fun challenge.

Mima is one of the few Touhou characters that would work as a boss who's the personnal nemesis of Reimu, even though she's not relevant to Touhou anymore, and since a very long time. But she could still be a good boss, especialy if she looks like she does in Touhou 2 with giant bat wings. Her attacks wouldn't be like Yukari's and more basic, but still pretty spectacular, since her magic considers of throwing star-shaped projectiles a lot, while she could also swing her scepter for an attack that gets you away from her, so the challenge would be to not only get in, but also stay in.

A more unorthodox Touhou boss for Smash would be Utsuho, or simply Okuu. Basically, she has the power of the sun god and can throw mini-suns at you. And they're not just star-shaped, they're actual suns. So she would do massive damages with every attacks, and they would all be very big, so managing to dodge said attacks and attacking her when she's cooling down or chaging up could make for a very fun boss fight, especialy if we get a remix of her theme that goes very hard, like this metal cover for example

 

[Laniv]

we need a boss rush mode

I mean, technically we do.

It just costs $5.99 and can only be done with one character.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

I guess Pyramid Head could be a Ganon and Bowser duo fighter and Boss. Or the Boss could be a fight with God from SH1 & 3.

Likely summoning other monsters from the series like Valtiel.

Pyramid Head would likely be a tank requiring good spacing to avoid getting hit and being able to retaliate. Whilst God would fly high and be tricker to hit compared to other bosses.

 

[SKX31]

Let's see, what if each DLC character came with a boss:

• 
  Spoiler: Dunno if a secret boss counts as a spoiler or not...

  Caroline & Justine.
  • This would be a boss that would tag team you, and could finish you off in style.
• I dunno. Probably a dragon or something.
• Gruntilda.
• Geese Howard or Omega Rugal. Probably the former.
  • Wuh-oh, SNK boss time.
• One of the Beasts.
  • Could have a mechanic where you could stun it by hitting it in the same spot over and over.
• Headlok (controlling Max Brass or Dr. Coyle).
  • You like fighting Min Min? No? Well here's 8 armed Min Min. Cower in fear.
• The Ender Dragon
  • A platforming based boss where you have to destroy the End Crystals (that explode by the way so R.I.P. melee characters) while getting harassed by Endermen before you fight the boss itself.
• Um...himself? J.E.N.O.V.A.?
• /Malos (& possibly also Jin)
  • Depending on how early or late in the game they pull the characters from, they could be a pain to fight.
• Um...I wanna say Jinpachi. I think that's the devil form type boss that Heihachi fights.

I'm actually not entirely thrilled with some of these. I think Headlok would be better as an item, and I think a generic looking boss (referring to the one for Byleth) would be fairly underwhelming, even if they picked one of the named ones (there are other options, but they're probably either spoilery, or don't entirely make sense as a boss).

Hero's Classic final boss does reference the Dragonlord (DQ I's final boss), so there's that. Although if there might be a case for DQ3's / 11's Final Boss.

Also, I'm petitioning to make Hedlok 's final boss. Why? Not only due to him being a mechanical being but also because Monado Arts can counteract ARMs attacks a lot (for example switching to Shield while being hit or Speed / Jump for gap close) making it a little bit of a minigame within the boss battle.

That makes me think: If they had a Portal stage in Smash and GladOS had her Palutena's Guidance where she insults the players, I wonder what she would say for each one?

Ай-ай-ай-ай-ай, что сейчас произошло!*

Time to bring up Dota 2.

That game has a Portal caster pack, where GLaDOS taunts... everything. Mostly the player. And that might provide some pointers as to what to expect:

: " That outfit you're wearing looks stupid. That's not me talking. It's right here in your file. "
: " If this backward, illiterate fantasy forest had a newspaper, you'd be on the front page."
/ : " Wait until your loved ones hear about this. This should make them proud. Or bored. One of those."
/ / : " Just because we can bring you back from the dead doesn't mean you can't dodge occasionally."
: " I hope you bought the fire gauntlets of strength goblet boots. I don't understand any of this."
/ (or FFAs with items) : " I spy with my robot eye something that makes no sense. Did you guess everything that's going on here? Because this is all nonsense."
/ / : "Well, really there should be an entirely new word for whatever it was you just stumbled and pinwheeled your arms through. But I guess for now let's call it winning."
: " All your little goblins destroyed a magic whatever-it-was in the middle of a forest. That's quite a skill you have. If I were you I'd wait by the mailbox for my big check."
(Team): "You're winning. More accurately, you're on the same team as winners who happen to be near you while they win. Anyway, congratulations. "

*(Ay-ay-ay-ay-ay, what just happened?)

 

[TheCJBrine]

yeah I don't get why it's said that Sakurai chose some characters like Terry and Joker when he's gone on record to say Nintendo is choosing the DLC more than once. Sakurai really likes those games and have taken inspiration from them for stuff in Smash, but he also really likes a lot of other games including more of the DLC characters than just Joker and Terry, and Nintendo could've very well chosen them due to relationships with Atlus and SNK and thinking they'd be good, fun picks for attracting more fans.

edit: woops mistakenly said Arc System Works instead of Atlus, fixed. I just remembered the company’s name starting with the letter A ._.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Definitely would've loved to see Boss Battles back, but...I'd prefer it like this:

1. Galleom
2. Rathalos
3. Giga Bowser
4. Master Hand
5. Marx
6. Dracula
7. Ganon
8. Crazy Hand
9. Galeem
10. Dharkon
11. Master Hand & Crazy Hand
12. Galeem & Dharkon

The full boss roster a bit much for you eh? Understandable. The last fight especially is a marathon.

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

Oh that's easy. My most wanted character is...

oh...

oh no...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

With my most wanted being Reimu, I have some choices. Some obvious ones would be Remilia, Flandre, Yukari, or dare I say her name, Mima. While Remilia and Flandre are certainly up there for iconic Touhou bosses, having the Touhou boss being a vampire while we already have Dracula would be a bit redundant even if their boss fights wouldn't be alike, wouldn't it?

So it would leave to have Yukari as a Touhou boss as the most obvious choice, and she could be a very fun boss to fight, with her using her power over boundaries, notably her gaps to screw with the screen, teleport, rthrow trains at you, this kind of things a reality warping boss would do. She would be really tricky and fun, so navigating around what she does would be a fun challenge.

Mima is one of the few Touhou characters that would work as a boss who's the personnal nemesis of Reimu, even though she's not relevant to Touhou anymore, and since a very long time. But she could still be a good boss, especialy if she looks like she does in Touhou 2 with giant bat wings. Her attacks wouldn't be like Yukari's and more basic, but still pretty spectacular, since her magic considers of throwing star-shaped projectiles a lot, while she could also swing her scepter for an attack that gets you away from her, so the challenge would be to not only get in, but also stay in.

A more unorthodox Touhou boss for Smash would be Utsuho, or simply Okuu. Basically, she has the power of the sun god and can throw mini-suns at you. And they're not just star-shaped, they're actual suns. So she would do massive damages with every attacks, and they would all be very big, so managing to dodge said attacks and attacking her when she's cooling down or chaging up could make for a very fun boss fight, especialy if we get a remix of her theme that goes very hard, like this metal cover for example

Well my most wanted was Dante, so there’s a pretty obvious one I had

Now one of my most wanted is Raiden, so Senator Armstrong.

 

[Theguy123]

Sales and popularity aren't the end-all-be-all when it comes to why characters get in. They definitely help, but sometimes characters are chosen for other reasons. Just look at Terry, he's not that big in those departments but Sakurai added him because he loves the character. I think the reasons why a character is chosen should be looked at on an individual basis, as they differ with each character.

Joker got in mainly for similar reasons to Terry, I feel. Persona 5's success helped, but I think it was mainly Sakurai's love for the game that got Joker in. Additionally, both games had big influences on Smash. Beating people soundly at Fatal Fury is what made Sakurai want to create a more beginner-friendly fighting game in the first place, and Persona 5's excellent UI heavily inspired Ultimate's UI.

And let's not forget the big thing:

Still hilarious to this day knowing he said this because byleth was next and he probably knew what the reaction was gonna be like.

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

With my most wanted being Reimu, I have some choices. Some obvious ones would be Remilia, Flandre, Yukari, or dare I say her name, Mima. While Remilia and Flandre are certainly up there for iconic Touhou bosses, having the Touhou boss being a vampire while we already have Dracula would be a bit redundant even if their boss fights wouldn't be alike, wouldn't it?

So it would leave to have Yukari as a Touhou boss as the most obvious choice, and she could be a very fun boss to fight, with her using her power over boundaries, notably her gaps to screw with the screen, teleport, rthrow trains at you, this kind of things a reality warping boss would do. She would be really tricky and fun, so navigating around what she does would be a fun challenge.

Mima is one of the few Touhou characters that would work as a boss who's the personnal nemesis of Reimu, even though she's not relevant to Touhou anymore, and since a very long time. But she could still be a good boss, especialy if she looks like she does in Touhou 2 with giant bat wings. Her attacks wouldn't be like Yukari's and more basic, but still pretty spectacular, since her magic considers of throwing star-shaped projectiles a lot, while she could also swing her scepter for an attack that gets you away from her, so the challenge would be to not only get in, but also stay in.

A more unorthodox Touhou boss for Smash would be Utsuho, or simply Okuu. Basically, she has the power of the sun god and can throw mini-suns at you. And they're not just star-shaped, they're actual suns. So she would do massive damages with every attacks, and they would all be very big, so managing to dodge said attacks and attacking her when she's cooling down or chaging up could make for a very fun boss fight, especialy if we get a remix of her theme that goes very hard, like this metal cover for example

I’m assuming we’re talking about potential bosses that could come with our favourite character and be in the classic mode

In that case I’d choose descole to come along with Layton.

Descole is the brother of Layton who spends the 3 games (and the movie) he’s in trying to 1 up Layton to the mystery and trying to end him. Layton doesn’t know he’s his brother till the final game where they have a heart to heart about their family and Layton realises descole is his brother.

I can’t decide though if descole should fight him 1 on 1 like he does in the movie and last game or whether he should use his mech that he uses in the 1st game of the prequel trilogy.

Hmmmm maybe both. Starts off in the mech and then once you defeat the mech he fights you 1 on 1.


Edit: I accidentally double posted. I apologise. It won’t happen again

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Still hilarious to this day knowing he said this because byleth was next and he probably knew what the reaction was gonna be like.

People complained Terry was a literal who so the monkey paw curled its finger and Sakurai gave the masses what they wanted. A character everybody would know... for all the opposite reasons!!! Mwahahahaha!

 

[Megadoomer]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

At this point, my most wanted (since Banjo's playable and my other two most-wanted are Mii costumes) is Doomguy, so the Icon of Sin could be included as a boss.

The Doom Eternal version of the character (I don't think I have to spoiler-tag it? It was clearly visible in the Switch version's release date trailer) seems like the best fit, since its boss fight area is already set up kind of similarly to a Smash stage, and it's easily the biggest Doom boss that I'm aware of. (biggest in terms of size - I feel like the Cyberdemon is more well-known)

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

I don't have a definitive most wanted but someone that I would LOVE to see is good ol Tracer

As for a boss? I got an idea
Mini Boss Gauntlet of the Talon members, who get Smash movesets of their own but are basically non-playable fighters. Perhaps a mini heal up between each fight would be something I would want incorporated in such a thing.

Sigma, Moira, Sombra, Widowmaker, Reaper, and Doomfist (I like this order personally, least to most ominous)

 

[Arctiq]

That makes me think: If they had a Portal stage in Smash and GladOS had her Palutena's Guidance where she insults the players, I wonder what she would say for each one?

All this Portal talk got me thinking how cool a Portal stage would be in general. GladOS in the background standing(?) menacingly, changing the stage around with elements from Portal 2. There could be light bridges, turrets, gels, jump pads. It has a lot of potential to be a fun mario-maker-esque stage

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Sales and popularity aren't the end-all-be-all when it comes to why characters get in. They definitely help, but sometimes characters are chosen for other reasons. Just look at Terry, he's not that big in those departments but Sakurai added him because he loves the character. I think the reasons why a character is chosen should be looked at on an individual basis, as they differ with each character.

Joker got in mainly for similar reasons to Terry, I feel. Persona 5's success helped, but I think it was mainly Sakurai's love for the game that got Joker in. Additionally, both games had big influences on Smash. Beating people soundly at Fatal Fury is what made Sakurai want to create a more beginner-friendly fighting game in the first place, and Persona 5's excellent UI heavily inspired Ultimate's UI.

And let's not forget the big thing:

I honestly think this is just an excuse Sakurai gave for personally wanting Joker when Nintendo had different reasons and they are the ones deciding the fighters. The menu thing likely came from Sakurai’s personal experience with Persona 5 and he thought that would be a good idea for Smash even before Joker was decided.

Terry was likely a gift to Sakurai for doing such great work and a very very very big exception considering Fatal Fury basically is responsible for creating Smash.

The fact remains that Joker isn’t even name dropped in his own gameplay trailer title, it’s literally just titled “New Content Approaching”(they could have easily updated that title by now to be more in line with the Sakurai Presents videos if Nintendo actually cared about Joker), like Joker wasn’t even supposed to be there originally. Sakurai doesn’t even say anything about Joker not getting a Sakurai Presents during the Hero presentation, again like Joker was not supposed to be here.

My theory is that Joker was added very last minute and was not supposed to be in the original fighter’s pass(the only one originally). No other character in either pass took 2 months just to have a character model, they all had a character model and a demo of their move set in their reveal trailer and yet Joker steals someone else’s invitation in anime form and does nothing else in his “trailer”, that just screams last minute addition to me, especially when they tacked that “trailer” on to his gameplay video too. Joker’s actual release into Smash was literally just shadow dropped in April with no fanfare from Nintendo also.

Why would Joker be added last minute you may ask? The answer is to stall for delayed Switch game releases that they want fighters from of course. Three Houses for instance was delayed multiple times after it was already decided that Byleth would be in pass 1, so Byleth was not going to be the last fighter originally(a 2020 character reveal would be way too late for a game was supposed to come out in 2018). But if it wasn’t Byleth that was supposed to be the last fighter then who was it? Every character in the 1st fighter’s pass either was supposed to have their game come out in 2018(including Dragon Quest XI S)or they are legacy picks that could come at any time. What other big Switch game was around when Nintendo decided the 1st fighter’s pass and was also heavily delayed that could have been the original final fighter for pass 1? Answer: ONLY SMT V.

While many people now suspect that Nahobino is the final fighter, I think I am the only one who actually has an extensive case for why he has to be the final fighter based on using every single method I could think of for disqualifying him or putting his inclusion in doubt in my own mind. Everything from the missing Nocturne HD spirits(keep in mind Nocturne HD was the feature attraction along with SMT V in a Nintendo mini partner showcase direct and the game came out almost a year ago in Japan, it was guaranteed spirits in Smash and it would definitely have them by now), the tons of weird stuff surrounding Joker’s inclusion, the now proven “M” theory, the fact that challenger pack 11 was originally separate from pass 2 and could have been in pass 1 instead, the fact that Sakurai said the final character would take “a while” and will be done “before the year is over” when SMT V is coming out “before the year is over” and is the only game Nintendo would gain something from marketing in Smash, the fact that Nintendo and Atlus put SMT V up against Pokémon as a holiday title on the same system expecting it do well etc etc.

I could go on and on and on destroying any possible argument against Nahobino being the final character because either I or someone else have already come up with such arguments, and in the end they were all reversed as an argument in favor of Nahobino.

 

[Paraster]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

With my most wanted being Reimu, I have some choices. Some obvious ones would be Remilia, Flandre, Yukari, or dare I say her name, Mima. While Remilia and Flandre are certainly up there for iconic Touhou bosses, having the Touhou boss being a vampire while we already have Dracula would be a bit redundant even if their boss fights wouldn't be alike, wouldn't it?

So it would leave to have Yukari as a Touhou boss as the most obvious choice, and she could be a very fun boss to fight, with her using her power over boundaries, notably her gaps to screw with the screen, teleport, rthrow trains at you, this kind of things a reality warping boss would do. She would be really tricky and fun, so navigating around what she does would be a fun challenge.

Mima is one of the few Touhou characters that would work as a boss who's the personnal nemesis of Reimu, even though she's not relevant to Touhou anymore, and since a very long time. But she could still be a good boss, especialy if she looks like she does in Touhou 2 with giant bat wings. Her attacks wouldn't be like Yukari's and more basic, but still pretty spectacular, since her magic considers of throwing star-shaped projectiles a lot, while she could also swing her scepter for an attack that gets you away from her, so the challenge would be to not only get in, but also stay in.

A more unorthodox Touhou boss for Smash would be Utsuho, or simply Okuu. Basically, she has the power of the sun god and can throw mini-suns at you. And they're not just star-shaped, they're actual suns. So she would do massive damages with every attacks, and they would all be very big, so managing to dodge said attacks and attacking her when she's cooling down or chaging up could make for a very fun boss fight, especialy if we get a remix of her theme that goes very hard, like this metal cover for example

Quote: The Core (either version).

Neku: Sho Minamimoto / Leo Cantus.

Frisk/Papyrus: Asriel.

 

[SNEKeater]

As for Smash getting people to buy games represented by the fighters in it, that much is obvious. Persona 5 went from 2 million copies over a year after it came out in Japan to over 5 million copies because Smash gave it a second wind just before Atlus came up with the enhanced version, Persona 5 Royal and the sequel, Strikers.

I don't really agree with this.

Obviously Smash helped to increase Persona's popularity, after all it did introduce the series to more people and in a way, it helped consolidate the series. But historically speaking Smash hasn't really boosted significantly the popularity of the series featured in Smash. So I don't think Persona is the exception. Like, 3 of these 5 million of copies coming from Joker's inclusion... I strongly doubt it.

It was more of a mix of different factors, because before Smash Persona 5 was already becoming more and more popular, which kinda became bigger when the game was nominated for Game of the Year at TGA 2017, which was a big surprise for everyone, including Persona fans. Like, I think the game was fantastic and at least one of the best of 2017, but I'd have never expected it to sneak in into the GOTY nominees of most magazines, including of course The Game Awards. I didn't feel the game was mainstream enough for that, because awards in general will usually prioritize quality AND popularity within mainstream circles. Plus nowadays, even if RPGs in general are popular, are usually not super popular, unless your series is called Pokémon or Final Fantasy.
Not to say 2017 was overall a very good year for games, so competition was tough. Like, I remember when the nominees were revealed, and when I saw Persona 5 was there I was just perplexed.

And that of course was long before Joker got announced for Smash. Persona 5 and the overall series were steadily growing in popularity and the internet was quite flooded with P5 memes, for example. Word by mouth was also very strong.

TL:DR Smash obviously helped but it definitely wasn't the responsible, or the sole responsible, for the increase in sales and popularity. That whole process was already happening before Joker got revealed at TGA 2018.

 

[Inferno7]

Well my most wanted was Dante, so there’s a pretty obvious one I had

Now one of my most wanted is Raiden, so Senator Armstrong.

Dante & Raiden

Based
But I must add that if Vergil was in the game, I'd rather have him as playable or nothing (maybe a mii or AT). In fact, I'd prefer it if the actual DMC boss was either Mundus or Argosax as they are bigger and seem to fit the role better.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Not to mention Joker's reveal was able to attract general JRPG players, Persona fans, AND Playstation fans to Smash. Vice versa as well.

 

[Perkilator]

Since we're talking about bosses, which boss could come alongside your most wanted?

Maybe Cortex for Crash, based on the fight in Crash 1?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For some bosses, I'd like to see Dragon Lord with both forms(though I'm not sure how easily the human form translates well to Smash?), and Gruntilda easily. Ender Dragon would be cool too, but I don't know enough about it to think of how it could work.

Of course, I'd like to see bosses for any franchise I'd want to be new to Smash too. Quest 64, Shining Force, Killer Instinct, etc.

 

[Theguy123]

What’s the stance on a M rated character being the final spot. Do we think M rated characters are unlikely, do you think they’re deconfirmed due to the ESRB system etc. What’s everyone’s opinions on an M rated character taking the final spot.

 

[Inferno7]

As for who I'd put as a boss from my N°1 MW's series... I'm afraid this is gonna trigger some people; Eggman
As for the others:
Megaman: Dr. Wily
DMC: Already said who I want
Kirby: We already have Marx, but Magolor if it had to be someone else
MGR: Armstrong no contest
Tales of: Mithos Yggdrasil

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

What’s the stance on a M rated character being the final spot. Do we think M rated characters are unlikely, do you think they’re deconfirmed due to the ESRB system etc. What’s everyone’s opinions on an M rated character taking the final spot.

We got Bayonetta in 4. So I don’t think ending on another M character is out of the question.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

I don't really agree with this.

Obviously Smash helped to increase Persona's popularity, after all it did introduce the series to more people and in a way, it helped consolidate the series. But historically speaking Smash hasn't really boosted significantly the popularity of the series featured in Smash. So I don't think Persona is the exception. Like, 3 of these 5 million of copies coming from Joker's inclusion... I strongly doubt it.

It was more of a mix of different factors, because before Smash Persona 5 was already becoming more and more popular, which kinda became bigger when the game was nominated for Game of the Year at TGA 2017, which was a big surprise for everyone, including Persona fans. Like, I think the game was fantastic and at least one of the best of 2017, but I'd have never expected it to sneak in into the GOTY nominees of most magazines, including of course The Game Awards. I didn't feel the game was mainstream enough for that, because awards in general will usually prioritize quality AND popularity within mainstream circles. Plus nowadays, even if RPGs in general are popular, are usually not super popular, unless your series is called Pokémon or Final Fantasy.
Not to say 2017 was overall a very good year for games, so competition was tough. Like, I remember when the nominees were revealed, and when I saw Persona 5 was there I was just perplexed.

And that of course was long before Joker got announced for Smash. Persona 5 and the overall series were steadily growing in popularity and the internet was quite flooded with P5 memes, for example. Word by mouth was also very strong.

TL:DR Smash obviously helped but it definitely wasn't the responsible, or the sole responsible, for the increase in sales and popularity. That whole process was already happening before Joker got revealed at TGA 2018.

Joker I feel is a pretty big exception to the normally small boost that games receive from reps in Smash because:
1. how unlikely he was
2. how much his unlikelihood boosted hype for the pass being the first dlc fighter for Ultimate
3. how niche and mature his series is compared to the games the average Smash player or Nintendo casual plays
4. and most importantly, the way he was revealed. It wasn’t just some trailer in the Game Awards like Sephiroth, he literally interrupted the Game Awards just before the game of the year was announced and then Reggie appeared after his reveal trailer.

Persona 5 is literally the most requested Switch port now when Persona Q2 literally bombed. The massive interest in Persona in the Nintendo fanbase was created solely from Joker in Smash.

 

[Merengue]

I honestly think this is just an excuse Sakurai gave for personally wanting Joker when Nintendo had different reasons and they are the ones deciding the fighters. The menu thing likely came from Sakurai’s personal experience with Persona 5 and he thought that would be a good idea for Smash even before Joker was decided.

Terry was likely a gift to Sakurai for doing such great work and a very very very big exception considering Fatal Fury basically is responsible for creating Smash.

The fact remains that Joker isn’t even name dropped in his own gameplay trailer title, it’s literally just titled “New Content Approaching”(they could have easily updated that title by now to be more in line with the Sakurai Presents videos if Nintendo actually cared about Joker), like Joker wasn’t even supposed to be there originally. Sakurai doesn’t even say anything about Joker not getting a Sakurai Presents during the Hero presentation, again like Joker was not supposed to be here.

My theory is that Joker was added very last minute and was not supposed to be in the original fighter’s pass(the only one originally). No other character in either pass took 2 months just to have a character model, they all had a character model and a demo of their move set in their reveal trailer and yet Joker steals someone else’s invitation in anime form and does nothing else in his “trailer”, that just screams last minute addition to me, especially when they tacked that “trailer” on to his gameplay video too. Joker’s actual release into Smash was literally just shadow dropped in April with no fanfare from Nintendo also.

Why would Joker be added last minute you may ask? The answer is to stall for delayed Switch game releases that they want fighters from of course. Three Houses for instance was delayed multiple times after it was already decided that Byleth would be in pass 1, so Byleth was not going to be the last fighter originally(a 2020 character reveal would be way too late for a game was supposed to come out in 2018). But if it wasn’t Byleth that was supposed to be the last fighter then who was it? Every character in the 1st fighter’s pass either was supposed to have their game come out in 2018(including Dragon Quest XI S)or they are legacy picks that could come at any time. What other big Switch game was around when Nintendo decided the 1st fighter’s pass and was also heavily delayed that could have been the original final fighter for pass 1? Answer: ONLY SMT V.

While many people now suspect that Nahobino is the final fighter, I think I am the only one who actually has an extensive case for why he has to be the final fighter based on using every single method I could think of for disqualifying him or putting his inclusion in doubt in my own mind. Everything from the missing Nocturne HD spirits(keep in mind Nocturne HD was the feature attraction along with SMT V in a Nintendo mini partner showcase direct and the game came out almost a year ago in Japan, it was guaranteed spirits in Smash and it would definitely have them by now), the tons of weird stuff surrounding Joker’s inclusion, the now proven “M” theory, the fact that challenger pack 11 was originally separate from pass 2 and could have been in pass 1 instead, the fact that Sakurai said the final character would take “a while” and will be done “before the year is over” when SMT V is coming out “before the year is over” and is the only game Nintendo would gain something from marketing in Smash, the fact that Nintendo and Atlus put SMT V up against Pokémon as a holiday title on the same system expecting it do well etc etc.

I could go on and on and on destroying any possible argument against Nahobino being the final character because either I or someone else have already come up with such arguments, and in the end they were all reversed as an argument in favor of Nahobino.

Damn.... I can't think of an argument for my character. No SMT content with joker especially with nocturne having no spirit event is more sus than Porky's absence.