Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[CommanderZaktan]

So, any glitches and datamine from the sounds>voices to see how many blanks are there?

 

[mynameisBlade]

I mean I get your point, but I don't know. These classic Nintendo characters aren't being passed over. If Sakurai and his team pick Isabelle the most likely option is that they never considered another character in her place, and if they did, it probably was a different Animal Crossing character. And so on.

In other words: the likes of Incineroar, Isabelle, Min Min or Byleth aren't blocking the way to Isaac, Waluigi, Dixie and the rest. And if they're a problem for these classic characters, then you should include K. Rool and Ridley as well, because they're also "stealing slots" if we go by that.

I'm not gonna say you or others have to enjoy modern or recent first party characters as much as others do, but I think seeing the whole matter like these characters are a "problem" for the older ones isn't the best perspective, not only because I feel it's wrong but also because in the end that leads to different fans being mad at each other and discussing why their characters are more "valid" or "deserving" of being in Smash.

King K. Rool and Ridley would/should never be considered as replaceable/slot stealers, because they each have HUGE decades of legacy spawning from DK and Metroid respectively, where as ARMS really doesn't... That is kind of my whole point is that nobody can convince me that stuff like ARMS has legacy and/or is deserving to be in Smash. As in if the entire Smash Bros Ultimate Roster gets revealed and Min Min isn't there; is the 1st thought on everyone's mind "OMG!! Where is MIN MIN?!" More than likely not. Older and hell even newer players wouldn't wonder where she was lol.

Older fans of Smash as a franchise usually just agree to disagree with newer fans in terms of what characters should and shouldn't be represented. That's always how it is at the end of the day either way.

 

[PLATINUM7]

So thinking about if every third party had three characters.

How would you finish Microsoft and Bandai Namco?

How would you do SNK?

What three would come from other Publishers? (Like Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, NIS, EA, Valve, et cetera.)

Microsoft: Dragonborn or Master Chief
Bandai Namco: Nightmare or Agumon
SNK: Marco and Nakoruru

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So thinking about if every third party had three characters.

How would you finish Microsoft and Bandai Namco?

How would you do SNK?

What three would come from other Publishers? (Like Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, NIS, EA, Valve, et cetera.)

Bandai Namco: Pac-Man, Kazuya, Chosen Undead
Microsoft: Banjo and Kazooie, Steve, Master Chief
SNK: Terry, Marco, Nakoruru

 

[Inferno7]

So thinking about if every third party had three characters.

How would you finish Microsoft and Bandai Namco?

How would you do SNK?

What three would come from other Publishers? (Like Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, NIS, EA, Valve, et cetera.)

Microsoft: Chief no questions asked
Bandai Namco: Lloyd
SNK: my personal picks would be Geese and Haohmaru, but if I was at charge of the game I'd probably choose a random Metal Slug rep instead of Geese for variety's sake

As for the others,,, I have no goddamn idea. But I'd 100% pick Diablo, Ezio and Rayman, that's for sure.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/z44SRmDSRj

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 2, 2021

The Mishima way.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/z44SRmDSRj

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 2, 2021

The Mishima way.

He just had to throw them off a cliff the second time, didn't he?

 

[GoodGrief741]

That is kind of my whole point is that nobody can convince me that stuff like ARMS has legacy and/or is deserving to be in Smash.

ARMS deserves to be in Smash because it's a Nintendo franchise and Smash is a Nintendo crossover. See? It's that simple.

As in if the entire Smash Bros Ultimate Roster gets revealed and Min Min isn't there; is the 1st thought on everyone's mind "OMG!! Where is MIN MIN?!" More than likely not. Older and hell even newer players wouldn't wonder where she was lol.

Did you miss the entire year in which Spring Man was a lock for Ultimate, to the point where Sakurai acknowledged his exclusion?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/z44SRmDSRj

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 2, 2021

The Mishima way.

They could've done this joke with half the roster, and I'd STILL find it funny.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

King K. Rool and Ridley would/should never be considered as replaceable/slot stealers, because they each have HUGE decades of legacy spawning from DK and Metroid respectively, where as ARMS really doesn't... That is kind of my whole point is that nobody can convince me that stuff like ARMS has legacy and/or is deserving to be in Smash. As in if the entire Smash Bros Ultimate Roster gets revealed and Min Min isn't there; is the 1st thought on everyone's mind "OMG!! Where is MIN MIN?!" More than likely not. Older and hell even newer players wouldn't wonder where she was lol.

Older fans of Smash as a franchise usually just agree to disagree with newer fans in terms of what characters should and shouldn't be represented. That's always how it is at the end of the day either way.

ARMS deserves to be in Smash because it's a Nintendo franchise and Smash is a Nintendo crossover. See? It's that simple.

Did you miss the entire year in which Spring Man was a lock for Ultimate, to the point where Sakurai acknowledged his exclusion?

I'm pretty sure I remember watching the reactions for the November Direct, when Spring Man was revealed as an Assist Trophy, the groans were as loud as they were for Isaac and Shadow.

People really did think that some character from ARMS was a lock for the base game of Ultimate. Especially since Inkling was the first newcomer revealed even before "Everyone is here!",as it was the big new Nintendo franchise for the Switch the same way Splatoon was for the Wii U at the time.

 

[Polan]

we're absolutely getting ring fit trainer as a character in whatever the next smash winds up being. lock that one in.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I share the sentiment with most of these, but I have my doubts about some:
-Konami pretty much shut down their best option (Bomberman), so I don't think we'll see anything from them in this pass. I'd love to see Raiden though but he isn't relevant anymore.

Bill & Lance are literally right there, man.

And I don’t think that interview disconfirms Kiryu because he was talking in reference to Tekken but to reach their own.

Harada’s Tweet is a troll it’s just how he is. If it holds true to the end then it will be just complete happenstance.

That’s all I really got

 

[ZelDan]

ARMS deserves to be in Smash because it's a Nintendo franchise and Smash is a Nintendo crossover. See? It's that simple.

Did you miss the entire year in which Spring Man was a lock for Ultimate, to the point where Sakurai acknowledged his exclusion?

I feel like one of the very first fake leaks we had for ultimate had Springman in it. You know, the one that also had Decidueye in it.

It's the earliest fake leak I can remember.

 

[Mamboo07]

I'm pretty sure I remember watching the reactions for the November Direct, when Spring Man was revealed as an Assist Trophy, the groans were as loud as they were for Isaac and Shadow.

People really did think that some character from ARMS was a lock for the base game of Ultimate especially since Inkling was the first newcomer revealed even before "Everyone is here!", since it was the big new Nintendo franchise for the Switch the same way Splatoon was for the Wii U at the time.

I remember Isaac and Shadow due to something involving a Smash leak and the Grinch.

Not only ARMS, but Xenoblade 2 as well who fans expected Rex with Pyra as a duo fighter.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I think that smash team with ultimate always tried find some kind of balance with the newcomers

Base game
Old: Ridley (1986), King K Rool (1994), Simon (1986)
New: Inkling (2015), Isabelle (2012), Incineroar (2016)

FP1
Old: Banjo-Kazooie (1998), Terry (1991)
New: Byleth (2019), Joker (2017)
Mix: Hero (1988, 1990, 2004, 2017)

FP2
Old: Kazuya (1994), Sephiroth (1997)
New: Min Min (2017), Pyra/Mythra (2017), Steve (2011).

You have to consider that there a very broad demographic that plays smash game, ranging from teenagers (~15, so born 2005/06) that felt identified with characters like inklings or steve to adults (+30,1990<) that probably has spent their childhood/adolescence playings SNES, Genesis, N64 or PS1 and have fond memories with characters like Ridley, King K Rool, Banjo, Kazuya or Sephiroth. (among other of course).

 

[PeridotGX]

I think that smash team with ultimate always tried find some kind of balance with the newcomers

Base game
Old: Ridley (1986), King K Rool (1994), Simon (1986)
New: Inkling (2015), Isabelle (2012), Incineroar (2016)

FP1
Old: Banjo-Kazooie (1998), Terry (1991)
New: Byleth (2019), Joker (2017)
Mix: Hero (1988, 1990, 2004, 2017)

FP2
Old: Kazuya (1994), Sephiroth (1997)
New: Min Min (2017), Pyra/Mythra (2017), Steve (2011).

You have to consider that there a very broad demographic that plays smash game, ranging from teenagers (~15, so born 2005/06) that felt identified with characters like inklings or steve to adults (+30,1990<) that probably has spent their childhood/adolescence playings SNES, Genesis, N64 or PS1 and have fond memories with characters like Ridley, King K Rool, Banjo, Kazuya or Sephiroth. (among other of course).

can we get a ds/3ds/wii era character.

please... just one. please, i'm starving.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

can we get a ds/3ds/wii era character.

please... just one. please, i'm starving.

Steve is a late DS/Wii era. Yeah, its game didn’t released on that consoles but was first ported to Xbox 360.

Dragonborn (for example) would technically be also a late DS/Wii era.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

can we get a ds/3ds/wii era character.

please... just one. please, i'm starving.

-Lucario: DS era
-Mii(kind of): Wii era
-Wii Fit Trainer: Wii era
-Incineroar: 3DS era

If you ignore MIi due to the whole MIi Fighter technicality, you got each for each era. Even if you aren't a fan of them, you got all three at least.

 

[Paraster]

I'm working on my own "prospective Smash game" project, and am trimming down the cast from Ultimate considerably, but I'm unsure of the exact count. I was initially thinking that I'd go down to 50 veterans and add 15 newcomers for a clean 65. However, I'm stuck on the last 3 newcomers to cut (I've already made some pretty notable cuts just to get here, with Ice Climbers and Olimar probably being the biggest), and am wondering if I should increase the cap. Does 55 or 60 veterans (70 or 75 total fighters) sound like too much for a post-Ultimate game that does not replicate "Everyone Is Here"?

 

[PeridotGX]

-Lucario: DS era
-Mii(kind of): Wii era
-Wii Fit Trainer: Wii era
-Incineroar: 3DS era

If you ignore MIi due to the whole MIi Fighter technicality, you got each for each era. Even if you aren't a fan of them, you got all three at least.

Not lately, though. We've only got one since the DLC started. Meanwhile we get 4 reps each for the 90's and late 10's.

 

[zumaddy]

I'm still pulling for Style Savvy Stylist. DS/3DS rep who could be a hilarious 'joke' character and comes with multiple banger soundtracks.

Also isn't Shulk a Wii era character??

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Not lately, though. We've only got one since the DLC started. Meanwhile we get 4 reps each for the 90's and late 10's.

Are there any candidates you have in mind specifically?

 

[ZelDan]

I'm working on my own "prospective Smash game" project, and am trimming down the cast from Ultimate considerably, but I'm unsure of the exact count. I was initially thinking that I'd go down to 50 veterans and add 15 newcomers for a clean 65. However, I'm stuck on the last 3 newcomers to cut (I've already made some pretty notable cuts just to get here, with Ice Climbers and Olimar probably being the biggest), and am wondering if I should increase the cap. Does 55 or 60 veterans (70 or 75 total fighters) sound like too much for a post-Ultimate game that does not replicate "Everyone Is Here"?

55-60 doesn't sound bad. That's about Smash 4 numbers, which is what I would expect an official Smash 6 to have about.

 

[Guynamednelson]

can we get a ds/3ds/wii era character.

please... just one. please, i'm starving.

Both 2000s Nintendo handhelds are starving for reps, the GBA's struggling just as much as the DS, especially if you consider Roy a Gamecube rep due to his debut technically being in Melee.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Incineroar, Isabelle and Chrom would also be 3DS reps introduced in Ultimate.

This is the newest chart I could find (before Byleth or any of FP2 was added, so Switch is empty).

Source

 

[SharkLord]

can we get a ds/3ds/wii era character.

please... just one. please, i'm starving.

This post is actually quite timely, because I've been feeling a bit nostalgic for that 2000's vibe, specifically for computer games. It's hard to explain, but there's just this feel that PC games of that decade have that just clicks with me. I've been feeling a need for games like those as of late.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Incineroar, Isabelle and Chrom would also be 3DS reps introduced in Ultimate.

This is the newest chart I could find (before Byleth or any of FP2 was added, so Switch is empty).

Source

I thought Metal Gear got it's start on NES? or was it on something else before that?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Incineroar, Isabelle and Chrom would also be 3DS reps introduced in Ultimate.

This is the newest chart I could find (before Byleth or any of FP2 was added, so Switch is empty).

Source

And the sad thing is, out of all 4 of those GBA reps, the only one who doesn't have some sort of catch is Lucas.

Roy's game came out AFTER Melee, Leaf is an alt of a character who debuted on the Game Boy, ZSS is an alt form of a character who debuted on the NES (and was also first seen without her armor on said system).

 

[PSIGuy]

I think it's worth considering that a company might double dip in this Pass, just because so much speculation is based on the assumption that they wouldn't. I'd place my bets on Microsoft - their relationship with Nintendo has never been better. Few companies are braving the language barrier for Smash promotion and even fewer have done it repeatedly. But Microsoft has a history now of collaboration and cooperation with Nintendo. Three Microsoft reps leveraging their different IP who appeal to different audiences - 90's era Nintendo, a worldwide phenomenon and Mr. Xbox Himself - seems very possible to me.

Of course even Bandai and Square have enough big IPs that they could justify another fighter.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yeah, in my opinion I think GBA/GCN is also quite struggling, it's a pity so many series from that era were given the shaft historically in terms of playable representation, from Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Rhythm Heaven, Chibi-Robo, etc.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I thought Metal Gear got it's start on NES? or was it on something else before that?

It started on the MSX2 home computer in Japan. The NES version was a watered down port.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think that smash team with ultimate always tried find some kind of balance with the newcomers

Base game
Old: Ridley (1986), King K Rool (1994), Simon (1986)
New: Inkling (2015), Isabelle (2012), Incineroar (2016)

FP1
Old: Banjo-Kazooie (1998), Terry (1991)
New: Byleth (2019), Joker (2017)
Mix: Hero (1988, 1990, 2004, 2017)

FP2
Old: Kazuya (1994), Sephiroth (1997)
New: Min Min (2017), Pyra/Mythra (2017), Steve (2011).

You have to consider that there a very broad demographic that plays smash game, ranging from teenagers (~15, so born 2005/06) that felt identified with characters like inklings or steve to adults (+30,1990<) that probably has spent their childhood/adolescence playings SNES, Genesis, N64 or PS1 and have fond memories with characters like Ridley, King K Rool, Banjo, Kazuya or Sephiroth. (among other of course).

Is this age Theory? It actually seems to hold up great so far. The implication is that our new fighter is from an older game. Its fit so far for the entirety of Ultimate. Doesn’t seem like a stretch that the last character would fit this.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm working on my own "prospective Smash game" project, and am trimming down the cast from Ultimate considerably, but I'm unsure of the exact count. I was initially thinking that I'd go down to 50 veterans and add 15 newcomers for a clean 65. However, I'm stuck on the last 3 newcomers to cut (I've already made some pretty notable cuts just to get here, with Ice Climbers and Olimar probably being the biggest), and am wondering if I should increase the cap. Does 55 or 60 veterans (70 or 75 total fighters) sound like too much for a post-Ultimate game that does not replicate "Everyone Is Here"?

As far as what's feasible, we know that 69 characters (not counting Echo Fighters) at launch is pretty taxing, and required heavy asset reuse alongside a fairly lackluster single player mode, with the Home Run Contest and Stage Builder coming as DLC. Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U launched with 49 characters (not counting Lucina and Dark Pit), with the large development sync being the separate 3Ds and Wii U versions rather than the characters themselves. Super Smash Bros. Brawl had 39 with the Adventure Mode taking up a huge chunk of developmental resources.

I think it's safe to assume that without a large resource hog feature, the most reasonable roster size to expect is somewhere in the 50's. The low 60's might be possible as well, but that's approaching Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's numbers, and I hesitate to say that they could go that high without sacrificing something.

With a large resource hog feature...my guess would be somewhere around the previous game's number; high 40's to low 50's.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I’m seeing a lot of want for a GBA/DS era character. I love being able to talk about my most wanted seriously again.

With him being one of Capcoms few candidates standing. I’m getting the feeling again. I just hope Ace Attorney gets something by the end of DLC. Whether it be a spirit event, mii fighter, or even the final slot. I just want to see it appear in some capacity.

 

[DarthEnderX]

This whole discussion reeks of “Actually what I like would be the best outcome, unlike the things I don’t like.”

Yes. And?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Yeah, in my opinion I think GBA/GCN is also quite struggling, it's a pity so many series from that era were given the shaft historically in terms of playable representation, from Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Rhythm Heaven, Chibi-Robo, etc.

We talk about how great the Gamecube is, but it was actually Nintendo's worst performing console before the Wii U. When you remember that, it explains a few things about current Nintendo (i.e. reluctance to get experimental with IPs).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I’m seeing a lot of want for a GBA/DS era character. I love being able to talk about my most wanted seriously again.
View attachment 321401

Me and the rest of Nick gang explaining why our glass eating disaster bi dad has the best shot out of any Capcom character

Sakurai seeing this when he knows we're not getting a Capcom character

For real though I get the feeling that the cards falling in place for Nick is just gonna lead to disappointment. At least I'm a fan of a large amount of games so chances are I'll still like who we get last

 

[PLATINUM7]

At least you're not waiting for a Virtual Boy character.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Me and the rest of Nick gang explaining why our glass eating disaster bi dad has the best shot out of any Capcom character
View attachment 321402

Sakurai seeing this when he knows we're not getting a Capcom character
View attachment 321405


For real though I get the feeling that the cards falling in place for Nick is just gonna lead to disappointment. At least I'm a fan of a large amount of games so chances are I'll still like who we get last

Yeah, pretty sure every so far character thats had the chips falling into place for them has been put out of the running. RE, Dante, A Tales rep, Chun Li (though she isn’t quite out yet), etc.

At least you're not waiting for a Virtual Boy character.

Who would that be? I can’t think of any characters who originated in VB game being considered worthwhile.

Unless of course this is a joke my sleep deprived mind has ran straight past.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Just for fun, I decided to examine the game franchises Wikipedia lists as the highest grossing and see what we can rule out based on what we know. I'll be sticking solely to franchises not represented with a playable character in Smash so no Mario, Pokemon, Minecraft, etc, and of course I'll also be skipping over franchises based on movies/books (should I make an exception to the Witcher? eh why not) as well as sports games and series exclusive to other consoles. I'll also be eliminating options that don't have obvious main characters (such as Call of Duty where you typically play as a nameless soldier)

First off, the list:
Tetris - 495m
Assassin's Creed - 155m
Resident Evil - 110m
Tom Clancy's - 82m (it lists other types of Tom Clancy games but I decided to exclude them)
Tomb Raider - 82m
Worms - 75m
Monster Hunter - 72m
Borderlands - 70m
Red Dead - 60m
The Elder Scrolls - 58.5m
Mortal Kombat - 54m
Crash Bandicoot - 50m
Far Cry - 50m
Diablo - 50m
The Witcher - 50m
Fallout - 38m
BioShock - 37m
Brain Age - 33.89m
Kingdom Hearts - 32m
Souls - 28.7m
Nintendogs - 27.95m
Half-Life - 27.6m
Rayman - 26m
Tales - 23.86m
Power Pros - 23.5m
Mystery Dungeon - 23.18m
Devil May Cry - 23m
Prince of Persia - 20m
Frogger - 20m
J. B. Harold - 20m
Lemmings - 20m
Simple - 20m
Spyro - 20m
Mass Effect - 20m
Raving Rabbids - 20m
Watch Dogs - 20m

From here, I'll eliminate series that are already represented in Smash in some form (not to say they won't get a fighter of course, just to simplify things)
Tom Clancy's - 82m
Tomb Raider - 82m
Worms - 75m
Borderlands - 70m
Red Dead - 60m
Mortal Kombat - 54m
Crash Bandicoot - 50m
Far Cry - 50m
Diablo - 50m
The Witcher - 50m
BioShock - 37m
Kingdom Hearts - 32m
Souls - 28.7m
Half-Life - 27.6m
Power Pros - 23.5m
Mystery Dungeon - 23.18m
Prince of Persia - 20m
Frogger - 20m
J. B. Harold - 20m
Lemmings - 20m
Simple - 20m
Spyro - 20m
Mass Effect - 20m
Watch Dogs - 20m

next we'll rule out franchises that simply are incredibly unlikely to get a character. I know those aren't necessarily failsafe guidelines but do people genuinely think we could get a character from say Mass Effect or Watch Dogs? (Tomb Raider was left due to how successful of a franchise it is making it a sleeper pick, Worms has received several exclusive games through Nintendo, Crash and Sora are heavily requested currently, Namco is pretty close with Nintendo so a Souls rep if Namco got another character would make sense and Nintendo has done special tie ins with Skylanders)
Tomb Raider - 82m
Worms - 75m
Crash Bandicoot - 50m
Kingdom Hearts - 32m
Souls - 28.7m
Spyro - 20m

Nothing to take seriously at all, just thought it'd be fun to narrow down the highest grossing franchises and see who's up there