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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Dinoman96

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I keep getting hung up on “would Sony be ok with that?” With Banjo and Steve, those characters can appear on Nintendo consoles anyways, but it’s not the same with characters like Kratos or Ratchet and Clank. Plus Sony doesn’t seem to like playing nice with other companies anyways
Well, they had no problem with letting Kratos appear in Fortnite, which technically means he can now be seen on Xbox and Switch. Same thing with Master Chief, who does appear on other consoles in the form of a skin in Minecraft and Fortnite.
 

osby

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What if the last fighter was a representative of PlayStation? I know it obviously won't be, but I can't think of a more fitting conclusion to the broadest crossover in gaming.

Smash Ultimate's DLC has had a lot of mind-blowing moments. For the final character to be the peak of Smash hype, it has to surpass the likes of Joker, Banjo-Kazooie, Sephiroth, Kazuya, even Minecraft Steve. The only way I can conceive of that happening is a collaboration with the only pillar of gaming more iconic than Nintendo.

I'm not saying there won't be people upset to see Kratos or Ratchet & Clank in the final slot, but even those people would agree that the biggest reveal was saved for last.
The thing is, the final character doesn't have to be the peak of Smash hype and the precedent suggests that it's actually more likely that it won't. Personally, I don't see Nintendo holding a Western-oriented pick like Kratos until fall when E3 would make much more sense in terms of audience engagement.

Maybe that's just me but I think people are so focused on mindblowing reveals that they're negatively surprised when a reveal isn't bigger than everyone before. I'm 99% sure the final character won't be someone that the fanbase considers as a "saving the best of the last".

Not saying stop expecting a character, just be mindful that Nintendo probably doesn't care about forming a meaningful narrative with a climactic ending when planning announcement orders.
 

Twilord

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I can't see that happening unless Legends Arceus introduces completely brand new Pokemon. Otherwise a Spirit Board for them would be indistinguishable from a Spirit Board for DP in general.
Not to be an asshole but:

Pokémon games have unique human characters who could easily justify sending 'their teams' of Smash fighters at you. Could lead to a very funny dynamic where playing Legend Arceus leads to 'oh now I get it' moments. Spirit Boards seem like they would be very easy to program, and the type of information they would need for it are exactly the type of thing new Pokémon games have to inform the rest of its brand of.




Swap and Pokemon Change are functionally identical.

I mean if you want to ignore the fact that swapping between two sword-fighters and swapping between three totally different characters inherently has a huge difference in both feel and design, then shall we also ignore the differences between Limit Break, Aura, Arsene, One-Winged-Angel, or Tekken-Rage since different combinations of them can also be absurdly simplified to similar base concepts?
 
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D

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Pokemon is deconfirmed through Spirit Events, while I don't expect any new DK or Kirby reps until we get a new game for those franchises.
I don't think Spirit Events themselves deconfirm a certain character; only if that character shows up in the event itself. I mean, I get the reasoning behind it; why release an event with new spirits if you're going to release a new character down the road that could use the spirits in the special DLC Spirits section, but I'm not 100% convinced a new Spirit Event is a death sentence for a character.

In the end, Gengar84 is exactly right; it's likely to be someone nobody really speculated on, yet again.

Every time someone here has posted a 'Predictions' list, it's completely indistinguishable from a 'Wishlist'. Nobody has really separated the two. That's why we keep getting 'surprised' showing up as a rep. every time we think we nail a theory down, it's disproven and a new, even more shaky one, comes forth.

I'm not saying we should stop predicting altogether, but maybe approach things a different way? Like, consider another angle? Like what would Nintendo and Sakurai want in that is also recognizable? You can't look at the love that Sakurai put in to the development of Terry & Kazuya and not see that the man loves true fighting games; he obviously grew up with them. Sakurai said awhile back that Nintendo approached him with a list of characters and he kinda chooses from that pool and says what's doable. Pretty sure, to make this the most marketable game of all time, said pool is going to include highly recognizable characters (Sephiroth, Hero, Steve), 1st party characters not already in (Min Min, Pythra), and characters from series not yet represented that Sakurai truly loves (Joker, Terry, Kazuya). In a way, I think that means Iconography does matter (contrary to what some think) as well as Sakurai's personal taste.

As far as Fan requests go, I think the heavy fan requests (Ridley, Banjo, K. Rool) are all done. Since Banjo was really the last of them in a sense, he was clearly decided on back in actual development towards the end. And Pass 2 characters were completely decided halfway through pass 1's release. So people asking for Zagreus? Maybe hope for him next game, because Zegreus is so new that he wasn't really on peoples' radars until the pass was well underway, so he's impossible. They've already shown surprise twice now that highly requested background characters like Geno and Waluigi got so much request. Sure, Waluigi (and Toad) are the last of the main Mario characters not yet in, so its weird that Waluigi isn't in, but his popularity was never that high. The explosion of interest for him almost seemed like a meme (like Shrek or Ultra Instinct Shaggy). And just like with Geno, Nintendo execs had no idea whether it was truly legit or not. If he had a lot of popularity before all of this, he may have been in the initial roster or added as DLC, but because his stardom is so memey, I don't think there's a chance of him being upgraded. Including him on 'prediction' lists at this point is just stupid; we know he's not happening; stop pushing him like he has a chance and discuss a character who actually has a chance. Same can be said with several other characters I've seen throughout the several speculation threads, but I'll leave them nameless. They know who they are lol.

This went on longer than I expected lol, so here's a TL;DR:
If we want an accurate prediction of who's got a chance, take developers at face value when they said their characters isn't in, Take release dates of games & when Pass 2 was likely finalized into consideration, and maybe start dropping 'support' for characters who don't have a snowball's chance in hell so that we can actually have a meaningful prediction thread with actual possibilities for once.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think the issue with skins is that they're quick things and at worst, don't represent the character that well. But in a different way. It's a fun promotional thing to say "check out the game this guy is from" at best.

Smash is a full set of movesets, animations, voices(usually), etc. So a whole different ballgame. Sony being okay with a skin doesn't mean they're okay with a full playable unique character, especially in a game that is core a Nintendo Crossover. It's now a full gaming crossover, sure, but it doesn't change its origins. Fortnite not being a console exclusive does matter too.

That said, that's why I'm wary of it. They still totally could do so if they wanted. But that also requires Nintendo to be willing to suggest it to Sakurai first, and for Sakurai to think it's even plausible. Sony has been known for being legit hard to get to do crossovers(they've slowly changed through the years).
 

RileyXY1

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Not to be an asshole but:

Pokémon games have unique human characters who could easily justify sending 'their teams' of Smash fighters at you. Could lead to a very funny dynamic where playing Legend Arceus leads to 'oh now I get it' moments. Spirit Boards seem like they would be very easy to program, and the type of information they would need are for it are exactly the type of thing new Pokémon games have to inform the rest of its brand of.
We currently have no human character Spirits in terms of the Pokemon series outside of the Fighter Spirits for the playable Pokemon Trainers.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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The issue I have with a some Sega games is that some of them play in such different and creative ways that it's kinda hard to make a moveset for the characters without botching what makes them so interesting in the first place.

Like, how do you make a moveset representing Monkey Ball? Sure, the whole "you're actually tilting the stage instead of moving AiAi" thing can be dealt with, but then do we just pull from the Banana Blitz minigames for normals or something?

How do you make NiGHTS ground-bound like other characters when what makes the games so good are the flight mechanics? Do you just slap on a buffed Glide and call it a day?

What about B. D. Joe? Would he need a moveset made from scratch, like Falcon and the Star Fox crew?

To be clear here: I would buy the **** out of a stage or music pack with content from all these games... but I'm not so sure about characters. Maybe someone out there has some good ideas, but so far I'm not sure it would work.
For NiGHTS I can see them having some crazy free flying mechanic tbh, like, it replaces up B and there's a meter that shows how long you can still fly, with the meter only filling up on the ground and/or when doing ground attacks. After all, NiGHTS was on a time limit in the games too
 

Evil Trapezium

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I mean if you want to ignore the fact that swapping between two characters two sword-fighters and swapping between three totally different characters inherently has a huge difference in both feel and design, then shall we also ignorance the differences between Limit Break, Aura, Arsene, One-Winged-Angel, or Tekken-Rage since different combinations of them can also be absurdly simplified to similar base concepts?
Swap and Pokemon Change switch you to a different character, that's all they do. It doesn't matter what type of characters are included with them because that's not part of the function.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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The thing is, the final character doesn't have to be the peak of Smash hype and the precedent suggests that it's actually more likely that it won't. Personally, I don't see Nintendo holding a Western-oriented pick like Kratos until fall when E3 would make much more sense in terms of audience engagement.

Maybe that's just me but I think people are so focused on mindblowing reveals that they're negatively surprised when a reveal isn't bigger than everyone before. I'm 99% sure the final character won't be someone that the fanbase considers as a "saving the best of the last".

Not saying stop expecting a character, just be mindful that Nintendo probably doesn't care about forming a meaningful narrative with a climactic ending when planning announcement orders.

Yeah, I don’t think the last character has to exceed Steve, Sepiroth or Banjo or whatever considering that’s…very hard to do. Even Crash wouldn’t be an objective “best end” to the pass. However, I do think it will be a different end than the universally acclaimed anti-climatic ending of Corrin, considering Sakurai says its the end of a decade-long Smash development. Corrin wasn’t truly the end with Ultimate on its heels, so I can imagine this DLC ending with someone…hyper than Corrin.

Which to be fair is a limbo bar in hell but hey.

I don't think Spirit Events themselves deconfirm a certain character; only if that character shows up in the event itself. I mean, I get the reasoning behind it; why release an event with new spirits if you're going to release a new character down the road that could use the spirits in the special DLC Spirits section, but I'm not 100% convinced a new Spirit Event is a death sentence for a character.

In the end, Gengar84 is exactly right; it's likely to be someone nobody really speculated on, yet again.

Every time someone here has posted a 'Predictions' list, it's completely indistinguishable from a 'Wishlist'. Nobody has really separated the two. That's why we keep getting 'surprised' showing up as a rep. every time we think we nail a theory down, it's disproven and a new, even more shaky one, comes forth.

I'm not saying we should stop predicting altogether, but maybe approach things a different way? Like, consider another angle? Like what would Nintendo and Sakurai want in that is also recognizable? You can't look at the love that Sakurai put in to the development of Terry & Kazuya and not see that the man loves true fighting games; he obviously grew up with them. Sakurai said awhile back that Nintendo approached him with a list of characters and he kinda chooses from that pool and says what's doable. Pretty sure, to make this the most marketable game of all time, said pool is going to include highly recognizable characters (Sephiroth, Hero, Steve), 1st party characters not already in (Min Min, Pythra), and characters from series not yet represented that Sakurai truly loves (Joker, Terry, Kazuya). In a way, I think that means Iconography does matter (contrary to what some think) as well as Sakurai's personal taste.

As far as Fan requests go, I think the heavy fan requests (Ridley, Banjo, K. Rool) are all done. Since Banjo was really the last of them in a sense, he was clearly decided on back in actual development towards the end. And Pass 2 characters were completely decided halfway through pass 1's release. So people asking for Zagreus? Maybe hope for him next game, because Zegreus is so new that he wasn't really on peoples' radars until the pass was well underway, so he's impossible. They've already shown surprise twice now that highly requested background characters like Geno and Waluigi got so much request. Sure, Waluigi (and Toad) are the last of the main Mario characters not yet in, so its weird that Waluigi isn't in, but his popularity was never that high. The explosion of interest for him almost seemed like a meme (like Shrek or Ultra Instinct Shaggy). And just like with Geno, Nintendo execs had no idea whether it was truly legit or not. If he had a lot of popularity before all of this, he may have been in the initial roster or added as DLC, but because his stardom is so memey, I don't think there's a chance of him being upgraded. Including him on 'prediction' lists at this point is just stupid; we know he's not happening; stop pushing him like he has a chance and discuss a character who actually has a chance. Same can be said with several other characters I've seen throughout the several speculation threads, but I'll leave them nameless. They know who they are lol.

This went on longer than I expected lol, so here's a TL;DR:
If we want an accurate prediction of who's got a chance, take developers at face value when they said their characters isn't in, Take release dates of games & when Pass 2 was likely finalized into consideration, and maybe start dropping 'support' for characters who don't have a snowball's chance in hell so that we can actually have a meaningful prediction thread with actual possibilities for once.
Yes, let’s consider things from a different angle and….reads post take into account the exact same factors we have been since the beginning. Alright.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Swap and Pokemon Change switch you to a different character, that's all they do. It doesn't matter what type of characters are included with them because that's not part of the function.
It does, actually. Quite a lot.

Going among three characters in a particular order means you have to adapt very differently among them compared to simply two characters.

Never mind only one can swap on death as well as use a Down B. And that Down B is usable in the Air for Pyra and Mythra, not for Pokemon Trainer. They're functionally different moves overall with solely having a similar concept.

They brought back Zelda/Sheik's Transformation gimmick. They did not repeat PT's. They're absolutely different gimmicks in practice. Being similar does not mean they're the same. And ignoring some major differences in how they work doesn't make your point good either. It just means you're trying to make them sound the same when they clearly are not.
 

Twilord

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Swap and Pokemon Change switch you to a different character, that's all they do. It doesn't matter what type of characters are included with them because that's not part of the function.
I literally think your argument is equivalent to arguing all the mechanics I described are just "ouchie-boons"; therefore I propose we drop the topic because evidently our views are not reconcilible.
 
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Yokta

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The thing is, the final character doesn't have to be the peak of Smash hype and the precedent suggests that it's actually more likely that it won't. Personally, I don't see Nintendo holding a Western-oriented pick like Kratos until fall when E3 would make much more sense in terms of audience engagement.

Maybe that's just me but I think people are so focused on mindblowing reveals that they're negatively surprised when a reveal isn't bigger than everyone before. I'm 99% sure the final character won't be someone that the fanbase considers as a "saving the best of the last".

Not saying stop expecting a character, just be mindful that Nintendo probably doesn't care about forming a meaningful narrative with a climactic ending when planning announcement orders.
You may think that, but this final slot is unique from the others in one regard: it's the final slot. Ever. Even if there's another Smash game, it couldn't possibly have all the characters from Ultimate. Someone will be the finishing touch to the largest and broadest character roster we may ever see in console gaming, and I think it may as well be someone who redefines what we consider to be a Smash character.

Look at Smash 4's final DLC character. Bayonetta was such an exciting and unexpected reveal that it influenced the nature of Smash Bros speculation for the entirety of Ultimate's lifespan. Would there have been as many supporters for Doomguy or Master Chief if Bayonetta didn't prove that mature games could have a place in the Smash roster?

And Byleth may have been an anticlimax for the first pass, but we already knew they wouldn't be the last. They weren't even the halfway mark. If you were disappointed with their inclusion, there was still hope that the next pass could deliver the ones you wanted. After the next fighter, no such hopes will remain. They will be the end of Smash Ultimate, and that is not an honour to be given out lightly.

It is possible that this significance will be ignored, though, and we may stare at FP11 in bewilderment, wondering why they didn't swap places with Sephiroth. (You can't deny that a major third-party villain bringing despair by taking the last slot, thereby locking all other game characters out of the biggest crossover of all time, would have been a galaxy-brain conclusion to the DLC run.) But it's also not unreasonable to expect the last fighter to be someone who actually belongs in the last slot.
 

GilTheGreat19

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Ending off on a "safe" character makes too much sense.

Additionally, the FP2 content was decided on around E3 2019. The requests that we've been begging for now, e.g. Crash, Dante, Sora; unless Nintendo wanted the too, and earlier than when we starting asking for them, then I don't think they can be considered as likely.
 

Evil Trapezium

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It does, actually. Quite a lot.

Going among three characters in a particular order means you have to adapt very differently among them compared to simply two characters.

Never mind only one can swap on death as well as use a Down B. And that Down B is usable in the Air for Pyra and Mythra, not for Pokemon Trainer. They're functionally different moves overall with solely having a similar concept.

They brought back Zelda/Sheik's Transformation gimmick. They did not repeat PT's. They're absolutely different gimmicks in practice. Being similar does not mean they're the same. And ignoring some major differences in how they work doesn't make your point good either. It just means you're trying to make them sound the same when they clearly are not.
You can use Pokemon Change in the air. That's literally one of the changes they show off during the Everyone is here presentation. Also switching pokemon after being ko'd is an automatic mechanic, you don't use Down Special to do this.

Anyway my argument was that Swap is not a unique function since Pokemon Trainer can switch Pokemon. What strategy you use with them is irrelevant.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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I keep getting hung up on “would Sony be ok with that?” With Banjo and Steve, those characters can appear on Nintendo consoles anyways, but it’s not the same with characters like Kratos or Ratchet and Clank. Plus Sony doesn’t seem to like playing nice with other companies anyways
inb4 Sony decides that they want to expand their audience, and go with it.

Then again, I'm pretty sure they recognize that they have way more of a mature than a younger audience.
 

Quick Gaming (QG)

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I think they’re basing it on the fact that after Hero and Banjo, the next time we got a Smash reveal, they confirmed we were getting another wave of fighters. They probably assumed the reception to Hero and Banjo led to the continuation of the dlc and thus the characters were decided then. I don’t personally agree with it but eh
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You can use Pokemon Change in the air. That's literally one of the changes they show off during the Everyone is here presentation. Also switching pokemon after being ko'd is an automatic mechanic, you don't use Down Special to do this which is my point.

Anyway my argument was that Swap is not a unique function since Pokemon Trainer can switch Pokemon. What strategy you use with them is irrelevant.
If they work differently, they're unique. And they work differently. The strategy used is because they work differently.

Being KO'd to Pokemon Change automatically is literally part of the overall Gimmick. It's even designed to be that way as you are forced to change out a Pokemon when KO'd in the Pokemon games. That's why it was added. It's a much larger gimmick from the start than a quick swap between two characters. It has different rules to it.

Never mind Pokemon Change's gimmick also was that the Pokemon lose stamina if they're out too long. And the only thing that isn't directly a part of Pokemon Change in itself is the elemental weaknesses, but do exist related to it. Pokemon Change is a multi-layered gimmick. ...Swap is only identical in function to Zelda and Sheik. Since it's the same function, with no core differences that makes you do things differently.

FYI, the only other one different from Swap/Transform(Pyra/Mythra and Zelda/Shiek respectively) is Samus and Zero Suit Samus' gimmick, since they work way too differently. They both normally require a Final Smash to activate(making it highly unique from others), but Samus can change into ZSS by using the taunt buttons in a very special input command. You can also use input commands on the CSS to get ZSS from the start, the only thing that PT and Z/S have in common otherwise.

In the end, having a similar concept only matters if there are no real differences in practice. Otherwise, they function different by design. Which... is the case here. Objectively speaking, they're functionally different gimmicks.
 

WeirdChillFever

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I’m not sure how exactly the timeline is for the reveal of Fighters Pass 2. Iirc, they said with Byleth’s presentation that the DLC will consist of 6 fightters, but I’m not sure where and when they confirmed that there would be more fighters post-Pass 1
 

RileyXY1

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I’m not sure how exactly the timeline is for the reveal of Fighters Pass 2. Iirc, they said with Byleth’s presentation that the DLC will consist of 6 fightters, but I’m not sure where and when they confirmed that there would be more fighters post-Pass 1
I think that it was after either Banjo's presentation or Terry's.
 

SNEKeater

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I admittedly wasn’t aware Puyo Puyo was by Sega and feel kind of dumb. I was aware of Streets of Rage, but I recall they hired other people to make that revival game right?
Yeah. Dotemu made Streets of Rage 4.

But it doesn't make it less valid or anything. I mean, Nintendo does that all the time (Metroid Dread, for example).
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I’m not sure how exactly the timeline is for the reveal of Fighters Pass 2. Iirc, they said with Byleth’s presentation that the DLC will consist of 6 fightters, but I’m not sure where and when they confirmed that there would be more fighters post-Pass 1
I think that was either Terry or Banjo?
 

3BitSaurus

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For NiGHTS I can see them having some crazy free flying mechanic tbh, like, it replaces up B and there's a meter that shows how long you can still fly, with the meter only filling up on the ground and/or when doing ground attacks. After all, NiGHTS was on a time limit in the games too
Maybe, but NiGHTS would still need to be on the ground most of the time, which is not what the games are known for.

I think it's easier for me to see this kind of mechanic fit someone like Kat from Gravity Rush than NiGHTS, because it feels more like gravity manipulation than actual free flight.

...to be clear, my post isn't meant to say "stop wanting these characters, they wouldn't work", just that I have no clue where to even start with them lol.
 

Quick Gaming (QG)

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I’m not sure how exactly the timeline is for the reveal of Fighters Pass 2. Iirc, they said with Byleth’s presentation that the DLC will consist of 6 fightters, but I’m not sure where and when they confirmed that there would be more fighters post-Pass 1
I’m pretty certain it was after Terry was announced but before Banjo’s presentation because I remember hearing about it in that time frame but I didn’t watch Banjo’s presentation
 

WeirdChillFever

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I think that it was after either Banjo's presentation or Terry's.

I think that was either Terry or Banjo?
Just checked, it was Terry presentation in September 2019, then Fighter’s Pass 2 was announced January 2020 in Byleth’s presentation. Of course, this doesn’t take into account when these presentations were actually recorded. Suffice to say, I don’t think the characters had to be decided back in E3 2019, if the pass wasn’t announced until 2020.

EDIT: checked again, it was actually the Nintendo Direct of September 5th 2019 but that was the same day as Banjo presentation
 
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Gengar84

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Maybe, but NiGHTS would still need to be on the ground most of the time, which is not what the games are known for.

I think it's easier for me to see this kind of mechanic fit someone like Kat from Gravity Rush than NiGHTS, because it feels more like gravity manipulation than actual free flight.

...to be clear, my post isn't meant to say "stop wanting these characters, they wouldn't work", just that I have no clue where to even start with them lol.
I would imagine it would be something along the lines of Dark Samus where the character is constantly hovering just above the ground for the grounded attacks and walk cycle. The character would probably end up being the opposite of Little Mac where they excel in the air but are less powerful on the ground.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Also during the Byleth presentation, don't forget that Sakurai said this:

“Even if I receive many requests regarding potential candidates on Twitter, I’m afraid it would be very hard to consider them, but I still hope you’ll look forward to it.”
Well of course, at that point all six were already decided and locked in

if he did consider any it would have to be for next Smash. Which, I think a post-DLC ballot, with better moderation like tying it to a Nintendo account and like 10 votes per account would be best to prevent botting

and as usual, nobody that didn’t originate from a video game like Goku or Gundam
 

RileyXY1

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Hey, at least it's not Japan-exclusive...
But all Smash characters, minus the Earthbound reps and the original 2 FE characters, were in games available in all of the major regions at the time of the Smash game's release. I don't expect them to add Euden when European players would have to be forced to seek illegal methods just to play the game he hails from.
 

Twilord

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Well of course, at that point all six were already decided and locked in

if he did consider any it would have to be for next Smash. Which, I think a post-DLC ballot, with better moderation like tying it to a Nintendo account and like 10 votes per account would be best to prevent botting

and as usual, nobody that didn’t originate from a video game like Goku or Gundam

Tying it to Smash accounts would be great. The last Ballot probably should have been tied to them too. I won some votes for Bayonetta in a tournament and since I am no longer in college it's probably best that I pull up that ladder behind me. :p
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Just checked, it was Banjo’s presentation in September 2019, then Fighter’s Pass 2 was announced January 2020 in Byleth’s presentation. Of course, this doesn’t take into account when these presentations were actually recorded. Suffice to say, I don’t think the characters had to be decided back in E3 2019, if the pass wasn’t announced until 2020.
Well, Hero and Banjo were recorded in the same week. That should help with figuring out the timeline.
 
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