Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Michael the Spikester]

I don't expect that unless either the final character is the most complex one ever, or they are saving the final reveal for the anniversary of Ultimate's release which is in December.

This is where Amaterasu wins!

 

[Shroob]

I can see both sides of the argument.

Getting a Mii Costume over nothing is a win every time.

However, it would have been more helpful if Smash team could have focused a little more on getting the fan requests in the game over some of the obscure characters in DLC pact.

I think both sides have solid arguments. Also, if you are NOT happy with the quality of something, you should complain to companies about their decision. If I don't like how the new Nissan Altima handles in rain, I should complain to Nissan about it for example.

I mean, I'm sure they would if they could

If Nintendo wasn't the ones choosing the DLC characters, not them.

 

[volbound1700]

I mean, I'm sure they would if they could

If Nintendo wasn't the ones choosing the DLC characters, not them.

Yeah, there is complexity that fans are not considering. Nintendo could have gone after Dante and got a hard no and was asked to put in Ken instead, for example. We have no idea how things transpired.

I will say though that fans of Ryu Hayabusa or Rayman have right to complain. Both Komei-Tecmo and Ubisoft would love to have these IP in Smash based on past content giving to Smash and comments. It sounds like Nintendo said no to them. Perhaps there are technical limitations that makes these characters hard to add, who knows?

 

[Metal Shop X]

As anyone in Fighter Pass 2 been really "Obscure"?

Also, for those enjoying Max's reaction, he just uploaded this.

 

[SNEKeater]

I'm so tired of people still treating the Mii costumes like a murder or something, when in reality with only one character remaining I feel like it should be pretty easy to grasp that had they not gotten a costume these characters would likely not get anything at all. Lots of things about general Smash hype culture draining me lately and making me want to talk about it less.

There are still hundreds of viable characters who probably won't have any presence in Smash that would kill for a sliver of acknowledgment. In this regard I don't get the culture behind poking fun at disconfirmed costumes either, it's still some form of a victory and at least from my perspective it's easy to be happy with something vs nothing when there's only one more opportunity for content after this.

Fortunately though, I've seen a lot of grateful Shantae fans today. I think the music definitely helps seal the deal.

Yeah I never got being mad at your character being Mii'd. Like, it is either that or nothing, and people don't realize that.

Feeling disappointed is okay, though, and I get that. But it's not that bad. I wanted Dante, he got Mii'd and for me that's a "oh, well there it is. Glad he got something!".

I also personally love the memes that come out everytime a fan favorite gets a costume tbh, so I'm enjoying my time with all sort of Dante memes today
Which in a way I feel it's kinda fitting for his character. Anyway, DMC fans are usually pretty chill and funny, and so far I've seen most of them accepting the costume and making fun of it with memes and other jokes.

It would be nice if even after CP11 we still got some new spirits or costumes for unrepped series.

 

[3BitSaurus]

So, about that rumor a few pages ago, just to see if I got it right:

• The "leaker" says that CP11 is a Capcom character that doesn't fight (implying Phoenix Wright).
• Waluigi is some kind of bonus fighter akin to Piranha Plant.
• In the final presentation, Sakurai tells us that Volume 2 is the last programmed DLC, but to not be surprised if something shadowdrops a few months afterward.
• The first of these "shadowdrops" is a Zelda character.
• They list a bunch of other companies who might get Spirit events, Mii Costumes or new characters as standalone DLC after Volume 2.

...Yeah, I'm pressing F to doubt. Not even X. It seems insane that someone would know all of this in advance, and I'm especially suspicious of the fact that everything they got "right" was incredibly vague with no character names, even.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Ugh, people on some of the Discord server I frequent are being really salty and still claiming Phoenix has no chance after Dante's Mii showed up and saying that Onimusha's sales are enough to disqualify Ace Attorney. Sales aren't everything to determine a character's viability!

Yeah hahaha I... don't hang out in too many Discord places. THIS place is really rough and disrespectful on a GOOD day, even WORSE just after presentations (certain groups of people just hang around post-presentations expressly to fight with people and be rude). I'm personally not too upset to leave after speculation is over if not sooner. The level of camping around to disrespect people and start fights with them that's allowed, honestly makes me not wanna hang around here much. Discords are worse in my experience, it's random nonsense on a GOOD day.

PERSONALLY... I would love Phoenix Wrong, just the idea that he's there at the Defense stand, he KNOWS King K Rool is a bad dude... eventually he just goes "Ah screw it" and punches K Rool

And heck... throw Miles Edgelord in as an alt for Phoenix Wrong as well, Steve/Alex style! Both Attorneys just sorta get up from their stands and punch each other hahaha the judge reacting to the battle as he usually does haha.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Like, I get the disappointment for people who were holding out for Dante to be that character. But I think everyone ought to be a little humbled by the fact that it's really anyone's game and it's unlikely that any individual character has a significant leg up over the rest.

Why? A high likelihood of getting shot doesn't make getting shot not hurt.

Kind of a dramatic analogy but my brain was caught up in "wild west" as a term so that's what it came up with.

I think it's telling that the most well received costumes were often the ones that legitimately had 0 hope to begin with (i.e. indies).

 

[osby]

I can see both sides of the argument.

Getting a Mii Costume over nothing is a win every time.

However, it would have been more helpful if Smash team could have focused a little more on getting the fan requests in the game over some of the obscure characters in DLC pact.

I think both sides have solid arguments. Also, if you are NOT happy with the quality of something, you should complain to companies about their decision. If I don't like how the new Nissan Altima handles in rain, I should complain to Nissan about it for example.

"Fan favorite" and "obscure" aren't mutually exclusive terms. I'd argue that Geno is infinitely more obscure than Sephiroth, yet most fans would only consider the former a fan favorite. Branching out of the hardcore fans' request allows Smash to have a wider appeal and not just tick the boxes of a vocal minority's wishlists.

Even if the Smash team was choosing the characters (hint: they don't, Nintendo does), it's not like they can get full rights to any character like Master Chief just because fans are asking for them.

 

[volbound1700]

"Fan favorite" and "obscure" aren't mutually exclusive terms. I'd argue that Geno is infinitely more obscure than Sephiroth, yet most fans would only consider the former a fan favorite. Branching out of the hardcore fans' request allows Smash to have a wider appeal and not just tick the boxes of a vocal minority's wishlists.

Even if the Smash team was choosing the characters (hint: they don't, Nintendo does), it's not like they can get full rights to any character like Master Chief just because fans are asking for them.

True on the comment of complexity but you do know as well as I do that Nintendo had huge fan demands like Ryu Hayabusa or Rayman that the companies would have given to them and they would have been better additions than some of the obscure or less popular additions like Byleth.

Also the fact that Nintendo is able to get Mii Costumes for a popular pick like Dante shows that they might have been able to get the character if pushed.

 

[2006ToyotaTacoma]

Well, we don't have the worry about the next wave of Mii Fighters disconfirming our most wanted characters.

Spoiler

The last fighter will do so him/her/itself!

 

[SNEKeater]

Ugh, people on some of the Discord server I frequent are being really salty and still claiming Phoenix has no chance after Dante's Mii showed up and saying that Onimusha's sales are enough to disqualify Ace Attorney. Sales aren't everything to determine a character's viability!

That doesn't make a lot of sense tbh. Onimusha and Ace Attorney are in completely different situations when it comes not only to Smash: fan demand, Nintendo history... So it doesn't really matter if Onimusha's sales are similar to Ace Attorney's.
Even with that, Capcom usually keeps AA more alive, be it through crossovers, re-releases, special events (even if those are usually japanese only), at least in recent times.

Nothing against Onimusha of course, but that doesn't mean anything against Phoenix Wright and his series.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also the fact that Nintendo is able to get Mii Costumes for a popular pick like Dante shows that they might have been able to get the character if pushed.

It's worth noting that Dante's Mii Costume was selected before he blew up. It was not a response to the community.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Well, we don't have the worry about the next wave of Mii Fighters disconfirming our most wanted characters.

Spoiler

The last fighter will do so him/her/itself!

Presuming that the presentation will take place several days after the initial fighter reveal, the last Mii Fighter wave will be the first and only wave people will actively hoping for their character to be shown.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That doesn't make a lot of sense tbh. Onimusha and Ace Attorney are in completely different situations when it comes not only to Smash: fan demand, Nintendo history... So it doesn't really matter if Onimusha's sales are similar to Ace Attorney's.
Even with that, Capcom usually keeps AA more alive, be it through crossovers, re-releases, special events (even if those are usually japanese only), at least in recent times.

Nothing against Onimusha of course, but that doesn't mean anything against Phoenix Wright and his series.

The heck is Onimusha?

 

[volbound1700]

It's worth noting that Dante's Mii Costume was selected before he blew up. It was not a response to the community.

I would say that he has been popular since Smash 4, at least, if not even the Brawl era. Heck he is in Sony's Playstation All-Star Battle Royale (even if it is his alt look).

 

[osby]

Yeah, there is complexity that fans are not considering. Nintendo could have gone after Dante and got a hard no and was asked to put in Ken instead, for example. We have no idea how things transpired.

I will say though that fans of Ryu Hayabusa or Rayman have right to complain. Both Komei-Tecmo and Ubisoft would love to have these IP in Smash based on past content giving to Smash and comments. It sounds like Nintendo said no to them. Perhaps there are technical limitations that makes these characters hard to add, who knows?

I feel like there are some problems with your reasoning.

Ken is a clone character, no matter how different from Ryu he is. Meaning, it's highly unlikely that he replaced a unique character like Dante.

People in Koei-Techmo and Ubisoft made it clear that they'd love their characters in Smash, true. But so did at least a dozen other developers. Most producers would jump at the chance to get their IPs in Smash but that doesn't mean it's realizable to add all of their characters. I don't think technical limitations played a role in this, it's just you can't always get everything you want.

Also, everyone has the right to complain about Smash, it's not like you need a permit for it.

 

[SpectreJordan]

Since Sakurai specifically mentioned fan demand for them, I wonder if Lloyd, Dovahkiin, Dante & Shantae will be at the top of Nintendo’s list for the next game’s third party characters?

Has Sakurai commented on fan demand like this before?

 

[Schnee117]

Seeing a character get hit with a Mii Costume sucks in the moment
But then you get over it quickly and you're just grateful that they at least got some form of acknowledgement instead of the sweet nothings that thousands of others get.

And this wave in particular got further acknowledgement with Sakurai mentioning that these characters had a fair bit of demand behind them.
So that's cool. The only real issue I have with Miis is that only a few come with music and/or colour swaps but the former is a cost thing that varies per character and the latter isn't always feasible so it's all understandable in the end.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ugh, people on some of the Discord server I frequent are being really salty and still claiming Phoenix has no chance after Dante's Mii showed up and saying that Onimusha's sales are enough to disqualify Ace Attorney. Sales aren't everything to determine a character's viability!

This is the second time in like 3 days you complained about this very thing. Just ignore it


Sidenote I watched M2K's reaction to the presentation and he did not recognize Skyrim. Suddenly I'm reminded of MissClick being the only person to recognize that Fallout was getting a Mii Costume despite a bunch of people here dismissing her as an egirl streamer thot who doesn't play games lmao

 

[Louie G.]

Has Sakurai commented on fan demand like this before?

With Sans, I believe.

Well, and Geno last game. Which clearly didn't work out too well this time around, but still acknowledging a character's popularity is nothing but positive.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Since Sakurai specifically mentioned fan demand for them, I wonder if Lloyd, Dovahkiin, Dante & Shantae will be at the top of Nintendo’s list for the next game’s third party characters?

Has Sakurai commented on fan demand like this before?

Geno, and he's never getting in, so it's probably not an indicator of anything, though it could be argued that Geno is anything but a normal case.

 

[KillerCage]

It's a mood...

View attachment 320952

I'M GONNA KILL ME!

 

[N3ON]

Yeah, there is complexity that fans are not considering. Nintendo could have gone after Dante and got a hard no and was asked to put in Ken instead, for example. We have no idea how things transpired.

Of course there are many workings behind the scenes that would alter our perspective if we knew about them. However, unique characters and clones aren't interchangeable; the former is a lot more work - so that scenario is a bit unrealistic.

I will say though that fans of Ryu Hayabusa or Rayman have right to complain. Both Komei-Tecmo and Ubisoft would love to have these IP in Smash based on past content giving to Smash and comments. It sounds like Nintendo said no to them. Perhaps there are technical limitations that makes these characters hard to add, who knows?

There are an innumerable amount of devs that would like to be included and an innumerable amount of characters that won't be included. It's not like every other dev got their wishes for addition and it was only Ryu Hayabusa and Rayman that were left out in the cold. More characters are in their situation than those that actually find themselves on the roster.

There are many more working parts than just a willingness from the license holder. That in and of itself is a poor basis to malign Smash.

 

[osby]

True on the comment of complexity but you do know as well as I do that Nintendo had huge fan demands like Ryu Hayabusa or Rayman that the companies would have given to them and they would have been better additions than some of the obscure or less popular additions like Byleth.

"Better addition" is subjective, tbh. I like Byleth a lot more than both characters you listed.

That aside, Smash is a Nintendo crossover at heart. It just makes sense to add first-party characters from their newest and hugely popular console rather than just going for third-party characters all the time.

 

[SNEKeater]

The heck is Onimusha?

A Capcom adventure/action series that started on PS2
The first game got a remaster recently. It's on Switch

 

[Perkilator]

As anyone in Fighter Pass 2 been really "Obscure"?

I think the closest was with Min Min and the Aegis girls, and even then they're from series that were commonly speculated during the base game days. god I'm ****in' old

Anyways, here's a music wishlist I whipped up for Sora:

Spoiler: Spoiler tagged because length

1. Simple and Clean ~Orchestra~
2. Dearly Beloved
3. Dive Into the Heart / Destati
4. Bustin’ Up on the Beach
5. Destiny’s Force
6. Shrouding Dark Cloud ~Gigas Blast~
7. Squirming Evil
8. Hand in Hand
9. Blast Away! ~Gummi Ship Medley~
10. The Deep End
11. Scherzo di Notte / Black Garden
12. Forze del Male
13. Disappeared
14. Another Side
15. The 13th Struggle
16. Sinister Sundown / Working Together
17. Revenge of Chaos
18. Sanctuary ~Orchestra~
19. Tension Rising ~Reaper’s Revenge~
20. Desire for All That is Lost
21. Vim and Vigor
22. The Encounter
23. The 13th Dilemma
24. Sinister Shadows
25. A Fight to the Death
26. Darkness of the Unknown
27. The 13th Reflection
28. The Other Promise
29. Rage Awakened
30. Fate of the Unknown
31. Lord of the Castle
32. Fight and Away
33. Critical Drive
34. Vector to the Heavens
35. The Tumbling
36. Enter the Darkness
37. Unforgettable
38. Black Powder
39. Unbreakable Chains
40. Dismiss
41. Master, Tell Me the Truth
42. Forze dell’Oscurita
43. No More Bugs!!
44. UNTAMABLE
45. Twister ~Kingdom Mix~
46. Majestic Wings
47. Ice-hot Lobster
48. Gigabyte Mantis
49. Dread of Night
50. L’Eminenza Oscura
51. Wave of Darkness / L’Impeto Oscuro
52. Dearly Beloved ~Unchained χ Version~
53. Wake Up, World!
54. Face My Fears / Don't Think Twice ~Instrumental~
55. Titanic Clash
56. Anger Unchained
57. Eye of the Storm
58. Rise of the Union
59. Forza Finale
60. Edge of Existence
61. Nachtflügel

Here's another list I crafted by picking the most likely songs form this one:

Spoiler: Most likely song choices

1. Dearly Beloved
2. Dive Into the Heart / Destati
3. Destiny’s Force
4. Shrouding Dark Cloud ~Gigas Blast~
5. Hand in Hand
6. Forze del Male
7. Another Side
8. The 13th Struggle
9. Sinister Sundown / Working Together
10. Tension Rising ~Reaper’s Revenge~
11. Vim and Vigor
12. The Encounter
13. Darkness of the Unknown
14. The Other Promise
15. Rage Awakened
16. Fate of the Unknown
17. Lord of the Castle
18. Critical Drive
19. Vector to the Heavens
20. Enter the Darkness
21. Unforgettable
22. Black Powder
23. Dismiss
24. No More Bugs!!
25. Majestic Wings
26. Wave of Darkness / L’Impeto Oscuro
27. Wake Up, World!
28. Anger Unchained
29. Rise of the Union
30. Nachtflügel

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So remind me again why some folks thinks Resident Evil still has a chance despite having gotten a Spirit Board? Because if I recall it happened during this pass.

 

[subterrestrial]

I think theyre just hoping for the best

 

[Perkilator]

So remind me again why some folks thinks Resident Evil still has a chance despite having gotten a Spirit Board? Because if I recall it happened during this pass.

Two reasons:

1. The event actually happened during Vol. 1
2. Kazuya got in depsite Heihachi being a Mii Costume at the start of Vol. 2 (which is more likely Harada being cheeky but it is what it is)

 

[Dinoman96]

Since Sakurai specifically mentioned fan demand for them, I wonder if Lloyd, Dovahkiin, Dante & Shantae will be at the top of Nintendo’s list for the next game’s third party characters?

Has Sakurai commented on fan demand like this before?

Geno.

And look where that went.

So remind me again why some folks thinks Resident Evil still has a chance despite having gotten a Spirit Board? Because if I recall it happened during this pass.

I guess it's because Tekken getting a fighter despite already getting Heihachi as a Mii outfit one year ago threw a wrench into the mindsets of most Smash speculators.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Raging/Complaining about inclusions
Expressing disappointment, then moving on before it ruins the flow of conversation

 

[Metal Shop X]

I think the closest was with Min Min and the Aegis girls, and even then they're from series that were commonly speculated during the base game days. god I'm ****in' old

Anyways, here's a music wishlist I whipped up for Sora:

Spoiler: Spoiler tagged because length

1. Simple and Clean ~Orchestra~
2. Dearly Beloved
3. Dive Into the Heart / Destati
4. Bustin’ Up on the Beach
5. Destiny’s Force
6. Shrouding Dark Cloud ~Gigas Blast~
7. Squirming Evil
8. Hand in Hand
9. Blast Away! ~Gummi Ship Medley~
10. The Deep End
11. Scherzo di Notte / Black Garden
12. Forze del Male
13. Disappeared
14. Another Side
15. The 13th Struggle
16. Sinister Sundown / Working Together
17. Revenge of Chaos
18. Sanctuary ~Orchestra~
19. Tension Rising ~Reaper’s Revenge~
20. Desire for All That is Lost
21. Vim and Vigor
22. The Encounter
23. The 13th Dilemma
24. Sinister Shadows
25. A Fight to the Death
26. Darkness of the Unknown
27. The 13th Reflection
28. The Other Promise
29. Rage Awakened
30. Fate of the Unknown
31. Lord of the Castle
32. Fight and Away
33. Critical Drive
34. Vector to the Heavens
35. The Tumbling
36. Enter the Darkness
37. Unforgettable
38. Black Powder
39. Unbreakable Chains
40. Dismiss
41. Master, Tell Me the Truth
42. Forze dell’Oscurita
43. No More Bugs!!
44. UNTAMABLE
45. Twister ~Kingdom Mix~
46. Majestic Wings
47. Ice-hot Lobster
48. Gigabyte Mantis
49. Dread of Night
50. L’Eminenza Oscura
51. Wave of Darkness / L’Impeto Oscuro
52. Dearly Beloved ~Unchained χ Version~
53. Wake Up, World!
54. Face My Fears / Don't Think Twice ~Instrumental~
55. Titanic Clash
56. Anger Unchained
57. Eye of the Storm
58. Rise of the Union
59. Forza Finale
60. Edge of Existence
61. Nachtflügel

Here's another list I crafted by picking the most likely songs form this one:

Spoiler: Most likely song choices

1. Dearly Beloved
2. Dive Into the Heart / Destati
3. Destiny’s Force
4. Shrouding Dark Cloud ~Gigas Blast~
5. Hand in Hand
6. Forze del Male
7. Another Side
8. The 13th Struggle
9. Sinister Sundown / Working Together
10. Tension Rising ~Reaper’s Revenge~
11. Vim and Vigor
12. The Encounter
13. Darkness of the Unknown
14. The Other Promise
15. Rage Awakened
16. Fate of the Unknown
17. Lord of the Castle
18. Critical Drive
19. Vector to the Heavens
20. Enter the Darkness
21. Unforgettable
22. Black Powder
23. Dismiss
24. No More Bugs!!
25. Majestic Wings
26. Wave of Darkness / L’Impeto Oscuro
27. Wake Up, World!
28. Anger Unchained
29. Rise of the Union
30. Nachtflügel

Wouldn't use obscure for them. Since they're pretty new additions to the world of video games.

What I call obscure is like Geno or Banjo, since they been around for a long while, but they aren't the most well know outside their fan base.

 

[Technomage]

So remind me again why some folks thinks Resident Evil still has a chance despite having gotten a Spirit Board? Because if I recall it happened during this pass.

They think it still has a chance due to it being one of Capcom's biggest franchises. I'm also theorizing they think that the fact that Mii costumes don't deconfirm entire franchises means that post-basegame spirit events don't, either.

 

[walugurl]

If we were gonna get assist promotions it would had been a lot sooner. It's too late in the game for it.

That doesn’t make any sense. What‘s even the reasoning for that?

 

[RileyXY1]

Except said Spirit Event included all the big names in the series, like Leon, Jill, and Chris. The creature designs also have a heavy amount of body horror that will make the ESRB bump up Ultimate's rating to T.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So remind me again why some folks thinks Resident Evil still has a chance despite having gotten a Spirit Board? Because if I recall it happened during this pass.

You don't.

Oust Resident Evil!: November 29, 2019
Byleth: January 16, 2020 (reveal date)

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I’m looking at that leak and what kind of game company is Steel Wool? Literally never heard of them before

And did people expect more Tekken content in the base game?

im referring to this one btw:https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/541909567/#q541909567

also idk why but I really doubt valve content

 

[spicynun]

Ugh, people on some of the Discord server I frequent are being really salty and still claiming Phoenix has no chance after Dante's Mii showed up and saying that Onimusha's sales are enough to disqualify Ace Attorney. Sales aren't everything to determine a character's viability!

Thats annoying. Smash fans always love to pull up the wikipedia page of sales as an attempt to diminish any character

 

[Inferno7]

I'm so tired of people still treating the Mii costumes like a murder or something, when in reality with only one character remaining I feel like it should be pretty easy to grasp that had they not gotten a costume these characters would likely not get anything at all. Lots of things about general Smash hype culture draining me lately and making me want to talk about it less.

There are still hundreds of viable characters who probably won't have any presence in Smash that would kill for a sliver of acknowledgment. In this regard I don't get the culture behind poking fun at disconfirmed costumes either, it's still some form of a victory and at least from my perspective it's easy to be happy with something vs nothing when there's only one more opportunity for content after this.

Fortunately though, I've seen a lot of grateful Shantae fans today. I think the music definitely helps seal the deal.

As a Dante fan, I honestly prefer no costumes at all, because of many reasons:

-Getting acknowledgement in ways I didn't want to just screams cope (doesn't mean I can't deal with it, but I'm equally tired of this ''oh at least is something'' mentality without properly criticizing said ''consolation'' content). Not to mention it kinda kills the hype, since not everyone is really happy about watching their MW get turned into a bad cosplay rather than the real thing.

-If I wanted a playable alt I can just wait till someone mods his texture over another character, way better than a mii

-He looks fugly which makes it seem disrespectful, same goes to the Sonic costumes and many others. Someone like Shantae fits better due to her height. That said, if it doesn't fit I'd rather not see a costume.

-I don't play miis so don't really care about them, not to mention all 3 variants are awfully bad in competitive play and awkward to use.

-No music, which is even more of a bummer considering how many other costumes got 1 track. Heck I'd actually prefer the soundtracks before a mii I won't even use.

-And last but not least you have to pay for them. Granted, it's not much, but you are essentially paying for extra alts.