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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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MattX20

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Doom 2016 did receive a physical version for the Switch, so that argument is bad.
Comparing this to Doom Eternal misses the point entirely, I'd list why it's such a false comparison but I literally don't know where to even begin
What I meant is that a lack of a physical release for a system in one or parts of the world or lack of one for a specific console should not be used as an argument against a character's inclusion.
 
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Jocario Zero

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The last one could fit Splatoon 2 as well; most of the Splatoon content in base is of the first game. 2 has a few music and spirits (no Hero mode or Salmon Run for instance) and Octo Expansion literally has only two spirits. I can make an easy challenger pack for Octoling or Off the Hook that focuses on 2/OE content

also, meme for tomorrow:

Kazuya’s presentation be like
Less then 24 hours until the presentation and i really hope Lloyd makes it out alive just for the chaos this would create for speculation.

Lloyd right now:
Lloyds Endgame.jpg

:4pacman:
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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...Wasn't Rex on the screen like Pokemon Trainer with only Pyra or Mythra active? So basically still 2 in 1 and he couldn't get it to work very well. I have a feeling it's not as simple as too many polygons alone. Especially as Pokemon Trainer, the same concept, from what I remember, works. There was probably more complications in how it worked with the moveset, not just having an extra "guy" there. I think it was more that Rex had to do a massive amount of animations to cheer them on, etc, and it wasn't as simple as Pokemon Trainer's, meaning Sakurai couldn't make him work how he wanted him to.
 

Gengar84

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Ice Climbers are a 2 in 1 character. Chorus Kids are 3 and what Sakurai tried to do with Rex was a 3 in 1 character with Pyra and Mythra. Not a good comparison.

Sakurai exactly stated this why Rex with Pyra & Mythra couldn't have worked.
The one thing that might help Chorus Kid’s odds is that their models would probably be far less detailed than Rex or Pyra’s. They are probably even simpler than the Ice Climbers as well. I believe that was a big part of the reason why Ice Climbers worked but Rex couldn’t. Maybe they could even be sprite based instead of using models since they are basically just line art. Not that I particularly want them or anything.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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What I meant is that a lack of a physical release for a system in one or parts of the world or lack of one for a specific console should not be used as an argument against a character's inclusion.
Then you missed the point of the argument itself, which is that it's a sign of a publisher lacking confidence in success as it saves production costs. For Doom Eternal, this is only the case for the Switch version which is massively late to the point that the DLC is behind on that specific version. FDC however has no real confidence from Nintendo due to the bare minimal marketing, no physical copies outside Japan, no English dub as that'd be too costly for their estimated sales and in Europe you can't even buy the games seperately.
 

Michael the Spikester

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...Wasn't Rex on the screen like Pokemon Trainer with only Pyra or Mythra active? So basically still 2 in 1 and he couldn't get it to work very well. I have a feeling it's not as simple as too many polygons alone. Especially as Pokemon Trainer, the same concept, from what I remember, works. There was probably more complications in how it worked with the moveset, not just having an extra "guy" there. I think it was more that Rex had to do a massive amount of animations to cheer them on, etc, and it wasn't as simple as Pokemon Trainer's, meaning Sakurai couldn't make him work how he wanted him to.
Yes but he's not fully there only appearing in Pyrya's/Mythra's intros, taunts, and final smashes. Sakurai tried to have them be a 3 in 1 trio character.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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On the whole 2-in-1 character discussion, how exactly does Arsene's model work with that? Because Arsene is more detailed than that of Ice Climbers and especially Luma and he's out the same time as Joker is.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yes but he's not fully there only appearing in Pyrya's/Mythra's intros, taunts, and final smashes. Sakurai tried to have them be a 3 in 1 trio character.
Rex never fought himself? Or am I misremembering. Was he more like how Toad is, appearing in multiple attacks?

That'd still be more like Ice Climbers in practice, two attacking at once. Switching a character isn't the same thing in comparison. It's just both. Transformation characters always have 1 fighter on the screen, and sometimes a less active background-like character. If Rex was more involved than I remembered, then his issues is more similar to Ice Climbers. It could be Two At A Time plus having Transformations as a combination is much harder to pull off.
 

SneakyLink

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On the whole 2-in-1 character discussion, how exactly does Arsene's model work with that? Because Arsene is more detailed than that of Ice Climbers and especially Luma and he's out the same time as Joker is.
With Arsene you have to fill up the Rebellion Gauge in order to summon him. In addition, I think Arsene vanishes when performing certain actions such as grabs and the Final Smash.
 

Cutie Gwen

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On the whole 2-in-1 character discussion, how exactly does Arsene's model work with that? Because Arsene is more detailed than that of Ice Climbers and especially Luma and he's out the same time as Joker is.
Arsene works more cosmetically than anything as he can't be hit, he's more of a visual indicator that Joker hits harder now
 

Michael the Spikester

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Rex never fought himself? Or am I misremembering. Was he more like how Toad is, appearing in multiple attacks?

That'd still be more like Ice Climbers in practice, two attacking at once. Switching a character isn't the same thing in comparison. It's just both. Transformation characters always have 1 fighter on the screen, and sometimes a less active background-like character. If Rex was more involved than I remembered, then his issues is more similar to Ice Climbers. It could be Two At A Time plus having Transformations as a combination is much harder to pull off.
Again Sakurai tried doing a 3 in one trio character. Technical limitations prevented this as he mentioned in his presentation for Pyra & Mythra as eight player with them would had lead to 24 fighters which the Switch couldn't support.
 

Guynamednelson

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what Sakurai tried to do with Rex was a 3 in 1 character with Pyra and Mythra
First of all, you say that like Sakurai wanted Rex, Pyra, and Mythra all on the screen at the same time. Second, a single Ice Climber has half the polygons of Pyra, and I'd imagine a single Chorus Kid having even less because, well, they're even less detailed than the climbers.
 

Michael the Spikester

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First of all, you say that like Sakurai wanted Rex, Pyra, and Mythra all on the screen at the same time. Second, a single Ice Climber has half the polygons of Pyra, and I'd imagine a single Chorus Kid having even less because, well, they're even less detailed than the climbers.
That's how I took. Was it not that he tried making them a trio character? Given he mentions the whole eight-player which would have 24 fighters which the Switch couldn't support.
 
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MattX20

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Then you missed the point of the argument itself, which is that it's a sign of a publisher lacking confidence in success as it saves production costs. For Doom Eternal, this is only the case for the Switch version which is massively late to the point that the DLC is behind on that specific version. FDC however has no real confidence from Nintendo due to the bare minimal marketing, no physical copies outside Japan, no English dub as that'd be too costly for their estimated sales and in Europe you can't even buy the games seperately.
While there might be a lack of confidence in sales regarding the lack of physical copies, the fact the games got localized at all is still kinda hard to push to the side alongside the fact this is the first time they ever got released outside of Japan. That, and the lack of English dubs is common for a lot of visual novel games/adventure games. But fair enough, it may be a potential downside for her inclusion chances
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Again Sakurai tried doing a 3 in one trio character. Technical limitations prevented this as he mentioned in his presentation for Pyra & Mythra as eight player with them would had lead to 24 fighters which the Switch couldn't support.
Oh, so it wasn't originally a transformation character. All three were onscreen at once. Gotcha. Yeah, that was never plausible, heh.

I wouldn't apply it entirely to Chorus Kids, though. As Guynamesnelson, they're simple designs. Remember, 8-Player Smash got around characters by simplifying their models where possible in Smash 4. At most it was theorized that Ice Climbers were too complicated(for the Wii U itself) for 8-Player Smash as is, but it's not evident either. So they can still simplify the models too.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Honestly FDC just feels like its Nintendo testing the market the see the response. I think there's definitely a future for it, and the gaming scene in the West is far more open to the kind of title now than its ever been, but appearing in Smash (especially in the much riskier position of DLC than that of a base game inclusion) just feels like quite a jump for a franchise just once again getting its feet wet.

Ayumi feels bit like Euden in that respect; there's a potential future for them certainly but still somewhat dependent on more momentum and prominence before getting major spots in something like Smash.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Oh, so it wasn't originally a transformation character. All three were onscreen at once. Gotcha. Yeah, that was never plausible, heh.
I think Michael's misinterpreting the plans to have Rex alongside Pyra and Mythra as having all three characters on the screen at the same time, when that's not how it works in XC2.
 
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Michael the Spikester

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I think Michael's misinterpreting the plans to have Rex alongside Pyra and Mythra as having all three characters on the screen at the same time, when that's not how it works in XC2 combat.
Seems even then the whole transformation switch still would had been too much to support regardless given Sakurai mentioned 24 fighters in 8-player Smash otherwise you'd think he would have gone for Rex & Pyra/Mythra (Zelda/Sheik transformation).
 
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Dinoman96

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Honestly FDC just feels like its Nintendo testing the market the see the response. I think there's definitely a future for it, and the gaming scene in the West is far more open to the kind of title now than its ever been, but appearing in Smash (especially in the much riskier position of DLC than that of a base game inclusion) just feels like quite a jump for a franchise just once again getting its feet wet.

Ayumi feels bit like Euden in that respect; there's a potential future for them certainly but still somewhat dependent on more momentum and prominence before getting major spots in something like Smash.
Yeah sure, if the remakes do well enough for Nintendo to greenlight an all new game that also does well enough and has a proper physical worldwide release, I could see Ayumi being considered for the next Smash. But as for this game...eh.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Seems even then the whole transformation switch still would had been too much to support regardless given Sakurai mentioned 24 fighters in 8-player Smash otherwise you'd think he would have gone for Rex & Pyra/Mythra (Zelda/Sheik transformation).
I mean, the fact he said 24 characters onscreen is pretty clear proof all three were onscreen at once, yeah. That's pretty hard to misinterpret.

That said, I wonder if this was how Diddy and Dixie Kong were, onscreen both at once, and then switch positions for who is in charge.
 

Michael the Spikester

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Starts at 6:50

As mentioned even with Rex & Pyra/Mythra (With Zelda/Sheik transformation) would had seemed too much for the Switch to support and so that's what he probably meant by 24 fighters in 8-Player Smash.
 
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Dr. Jojo Phantasma

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I do feel that the pass will end with a first party character, but I am not so hot on Ayumi as much since Splatoon 2 and a new Zelda character are back on the table. Octoling or Off the Hook would be a nice way to end the pass in my eyes.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I mean, the fact he said 24 characters onscreen is pretty clear proof all three were onscreen at once, yeah. That's pretty hard to misinterpret.
Straight from the horse's mouth, he wanted two characters on screen, not three.
 
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Michael the Spikester

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Straight from the horse's mouth, he wanted two characters on screen, not three.
Ah seems I misinterpreted what Sakurai meant then.

A duo of Rex & Pyra but their different designs were too complex to have them be a duo and Mythra was left out. So went with Pyra & Mythra because of similar cloth designs and body structures. I get it now.
 
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MarioRaccoon

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From Rhythm Heaven, always liked this concept for Barista:


Basically, it would be similar to duck hunt where it summons other RH characters for their attacks. The gimmick is that if you attack with certain rhythm patterns, you can make more damage

RH is in a strange place, yes it really fits well for last dlc character (nintendo ip, more niche, different aesthetically than other FP2 fighters, can be unique, considered for smash 4….) but well, there is no game announced for them (and likely will not for some time, expressed by their creator) and idk if nintendo is interested to put them in smash.

Of course, it can happen that this last FP2 fighter is by Sakurai’s choice.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Gengar84

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Straight from the horse's mouth, he wanted two characters on screen, not three.
Unless Pyra and Mythra were still transform characters in addition to being paired with Rex. Only one Blade was active at a time in Xenoblade 2 and switching blades was a big part of the gameplay. I always imagined that’s how it would have worked if there were no technical limitations. Kind of like how Akira Howard works in Astral Chain.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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I do feel that the pass will end with a first party character, but I am not so hot on Ayumi as much since Splatoon 2 and a new Zelda character are back on the table. Octoling or Off the Hook would be a nice way to end the pass in my eyes.
Off-topic, but iff we are going to take the whole “Smash ends on a low note” argument seriously, then by definition the likes of Waluigi, Dixie, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid and Isaac would not be viable as they are popularly requested characters and would fit the status of “too good to be true” for a lot if people.

What I am saying is that we are getting a 9th Fire Emblem character as the last fighter. :troll:
 

Guynamednelson

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Off-topic, but iff we are going to take the whole “Smash ends on a low note” argument seriously, then by definition the likes of Waluigi, Dixie, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid and Isaac would not be viable as they are popularly requested characters and would fit the status of “too good to be true” for a lot if people.
I'm kind of considering them "low notes" in the "this is the pass that has Steve and Sephiroth" sense, not the "this is the base game that added Ridley and K. Rool" sense.
 
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