Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Michael the Spikester]

What are the chances this Fix/Second Chance Theory will be broken? Because if Ayumi and a Rhythm Heaven rep ain't eligible to be the last fighter, I don't know what is.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't see Ayumi or a Rhythm Heaven character getting the same treatment as Minmin or Pyra/Mythra. Those two have more going for them than just "oops they missed out" - they push big first party titles as well. Meanwhile Rhythm Heaven is currently dead, and remakes don't get marketed that aggressively.

Yeah, you're right on that one. It's also possible that CP11 breaks the "second chance theory" like how Byleth broke the trend of FP1 being all third-parties from new, previously unrepresented series.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

The gore argument is not one I care much for.

Scorpion has already been put in games like Injustice with no blood and people are fine with it.

Doom 1 and 2 aren’t the most gory games either IIRC. The only things I remember being gross were how characters fell apart after being shot. Which I don’t think is really that important to the game.

Is the argument that the characters are so violent Nintendo doesn’t want to associate with them? Cause if so they probably shouldn’t have been promoting MK11 and Doom as much as they did.

I guess Smash could be seen as a different story with Nintendo characters being at the forefront, but I honestly don’t think Nintendo cares after they included the strange and somewhat unsettling version of Bayonettas Angels and RE as spirits.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Wasn't there an obscure claim of Dante having been planned for Ultimate? Don't know exactly where the source was but that's what I heard. Wonder if anyone knows anything about that.

From Xenother

Generally, this hits on most of the names that I heard around that time, with a bunch that never reached my ears.

There are a few missing, for example:
Dante, Melmetal, and Katalina were all prototyped but scrapped.
Geno was on the Square Enix list.
Edelgaard did get some consideration.
Bandana Waddle Dee, Sylux, Slime, Dovakhiin, and the protagonist character of Little Town Hero were all names I heard at some point, but I have doubts about their legitimacy.

Dante is an interesting case because there was some confusion around whether he was only scrapped for the base game and if there was a chance for work to pick back up on him for DLC.

This was back during when the list leak came out, but Xenother generally believed it was a lucky guess, which ended up being true.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I don't see Ayumi or a Rhythm Heaven character getting the same treatment as Minmin or Pyra/Mythra. Those two have more going for them than just "oops they missed out" - they push big first party titles as well. Meanwhile Rhythm Heaven is currently dead, and remakes don't get marketed that aggressively.

I agree with this, especially for Ayumi. Remember that when Famicom detective club remake was announced, it was announced as a Japan exclusive. It was later changed for a international release. If this change was made later into development, I don't see Ayumi being seriously consider.

On Rhythm heaven cases, I feel like there's a bit more hope than Ayumi. If Sakurai really want a RH character, he might have try to convince Nintendo that it would be a cool character. But if Nintendo decided 100% the next fighter, there's no way they would have ask Sakurai to make a Rhythm heaven character. It really depends about how much power Sakurai actually have on character choice.

This is a copy paste of a post I've written in the general Rhythm heaven support thread:
"Something that I realised with pass 2 is that character were more complex for Sakurai and the team. Min min was hard to balance because of her range. The team had to program every stage for Steve. Pyra and Mythra were supposed to have Rex, but it was too hard for 8 player smash so Sakurai cut him. And Heihachi was considered for Smash 4, but Sakurai thought he would be too complex, but now we have Kazuya.

If Chorus kids was Cut from Smash 4 because some rhythm mechanics was too hard, now would be the time for Sakurai to try again. And it makes sense than he can do more complex fighters because with the DLC he can put the whole team on a single character.

I feel that Sakurai would still want Rhythm heaven in Smash. The question is: does Nintendo want it? (and unfortunately I doubt it, but who knows)."

 

[volbound1700]

As Papagenos noted in his recent video, all of the DLC fighters that made it into the second fighter pass are characters that didn't get in initially or character concepts from older games fully realized. Min Min and Pyra and Mythra were both considered for Ultimate, but it was too late in the base game to be added at all. It took 5 years for Steve and Minecraft content in Smash to be realized. Sephiroth was added to address the content disparity for Final Fantasy. And lastly, Kazuya was a character concept from Smash 4 where Sakurai wanted to implement a Tekken rep (namely Heihachi) into Smash 4, but was too complex at the time to work correctly. When looking at this, our final potential character could fall in line with this pattern: Ayumi Tachibana for example was considered for Melee, but was cut because her games weren't outside of Japan at the time. There's also the Rhythm Heaven content that was in Smash 4 as well as substantial evidence in the game code that a Rhythm Heaven rep was intended for the game but was cut.

I think you are very correct and this trend is very believable. Although, I think he is a longer shot than the ones you cited, Rayman would also fit this description. With all of the trophies, etc., we know Rayman was considered in the past.

However, for the last DLC fighter, I have a feeling it will be a 1st-Party.

I had a feeling Namco would be one of the last two but I was leaning towards Lloyd. I kind of feel blind because Tekken is such a bigger series than Tales of and probably made more sense. I think most people wrote off Tekken due to the Mii Costume.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I think you are very correct and this trend is very believable. Although, I think he is a longer shot than the ones you cited, Rayman would also fit this description. With all of the trophies, etc., we know Rayman was considered in the past.

However, for the last DLC fighter, I have a feeling it will be a 1st-Party.

I had a feeling Namco would be one of the last two but I was leaning towards Lloyd. I kind of feel blind because Tekken is such a bigger series than Tales of and probably made more sense. I think most people wrote off Tekken due to the Mii Costume.

Wait, when was it revealed Rayman was considered?

 

[MattX20]

I agree with this, especially for Ayumi. Remember that when Famicom detective club remake was announced, it was announced as a Japan exclusive. It was later changed for a international release. If this change was made later into development, I don't see Ayumi being seriously consider.

On Rhythm heaven cases, I feel like there's a bit more hope than Ayumi. If Sakurai really want a RH character, he might have try to convince Nintendo that it would be a cool character. But if Nintendo decided 100% the next fighter, there's no way they would have ask Sakurai to make a Rhythm heaven character. It really depends about how much power Sakurai actually have on character choice.

This is a copy paste of a post I've written in the general Rhythm heaven support thread:
"Something that I realised with pass 2 is that character were more complex for Sakurai and the team. Min min was hard to balance because of her range. The team had to program every stage for Steve. Pyra and Mythra were supposed to have Rex, but it was too hard for 8 player smash so Sakurai cut him. And Heihachi was considered for Smash 4, but Sakurai thought he would be too complex, but now we have Kazuya.

If Chorus kids was Cut from Smash 4 because some rhythm mechanics was too hard, now would be the time for Sakurai to try again. And it makes sense than he can do more complex fighters because with the DLC he can put the whole team on a single character.

I feel that Sakurai would still want Rhythm heaven in Smash. The question is: does Nintendo want it? (and unfortunately I doubt it, but who knows)."

You're also forgetting that the Chorus Kids aren't the only characters that could represent Rhythm Heaven. There are others like Karate Joe or Marshal for example.

 

[volbound1700]

Wait, when was it revealed Rayman was considered?

The trophies in Smash 4 are the only real evidence. It is not as significant as the ones that are mentioned by the post. That is why I say he is likely a longshot.

 

[osby]

I have a hard time buying the Second Chances Theory even if just because of how much stretching you need to fit Sephiroth into it.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Rayman were considered and planned don't you think datamining like with a Rhythm Heaven rep would have been decoded?

 

[MarioRaccoon]

There are probably a good chunk of characters that were considered in the past and we don’t know.

Like Minecraft, imagine that Min Min, Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya were the first FP2 DLC fighters revealed and we start speculating about “Second Chance Theory”, who could have guessed minecraft ???

Or even sephiroth, when a mayority of the forum were thinking about geno (mentioned by Sakurai) or Sora (mentioned by Imran Khan).

 

[volbound1700]

I have a hard time buying the Second Chances Theory even if just because of how much stretching you need to fit Sephiroth into it.

I really don't see any of the theories as 100% accurate but it is the best that we have to go off of.

I am leaning towards a first-party final reveal. Unless it is one of the highly demanded and unrealistic picks (Sora, Masterchief, Crash, etc.), I expect a lot of complaining from the Smash fan base. I don't see any of these big names happening.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Rayman was never considered, Ubisoft gave the model to Nintendo so they add him as a trophy in Smash 4.

 

[Schnee117]

Is the argument that the characters are so violent Nintendo doesn’t want to associate with them? Cause if so they probably shouldn’t have been promoting MK11 and Doom as much as they did.

If Nintendo didn't want to associate with violence then they wouldn't have funded Bayonetta 2 and 3 or put her in Smash either.
And Bayonetta exists in Smash just fine without her using actual torture devices to KO Kirby or Mario. So Scorpion can exist just fine without using a burning spear to rip someone in half and Doom Slayer can exist just fine without turning everyone into a puddle of gore.

The most violent they'd get is Scorpion's Toasty fatality which just entails breathing fire and you can just have the foe explode which is already the case for other final smashes.

Wait, when was it revealed Rayman was considered?

He never was.
Ubisoft just provided some assets.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Min Min - ARMS content for Base game
Steve - 5 years of negotiations and rumors for Base game
Pyra & Mythra - Xenoblade 2 content for Base game
Kazuya - Heihachi having been considered for Sm4sh but moveset couldn't be implemented

How and where does Sephiroth fit into second chance/fix theory again? All I know is giving Final Fantasy more representation which is why some takes another Sonic character into account.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

You're also forgetting that the Chorus Kids aren't the only characters that could represent Rhythm Heaven. There are others like Karate Joe or Marshal for example.

Honestly I don't really see Marshal as very likely. Even in Fever he was not that important, and he only make a very small cameo in Megamix. I agree that Karate joe could be chosen, but I kind of hope he's not because he looks very boring to me.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I really don't see any of the theories as 100% accurate but it is the best that we have to go off of.

I am leaning towards a first-party final reveal. Unless it is one of the highly demanded and unrealistic picks (Sora, Masterchief, Crash, etc.), I expect a lot of complaining from the Smash fan base. I don't see any of these big names happening.

Salt is always inevitable. The only thing I can say is it is extremely unlikely they would be nearly as controversial as by virtue of not being the 8th Fire Emblem character. was comparably much better received than him despite also being the last character.

 

[volbound1700]

Rayman was never considered, Ubisoft gave the model to Nintendo so they add him as a trophy in Smash 4.

If you gave a model, that is a clear indication that he was at least considered (even if in passing). We also got a spirit and other content. Granted, this isn't near the evidence that Rhythm Heaven or some of these other IP have gotten so it is a LONG SHOT. I would be very surprised if it was Rayman. I think we will end on a first-party. If you want more feedback, read the last 3-4 pages of the Rayman Discussion thread.

No matter who it is, expect a very disappointed fanbase unless it is some crazy pick that is very popular which I really do NOT see happening.

Salt is always inevitable. The only thing I can say is it is extremely unlikely they would be nearly as controversial as by virtue of not being the 8th Fire Emblem character. was comparably much better received than him despite also being the last character.

True. I am surprised that Sakurai didn't do a double-reveal at E3 because of that because if the last character is Ayumi or anyone from Rhythm Heaven, expect a lot of salt. However, combined with Kayuza, it would have been better handled. Even Waluigi would have been a divisive pick.

Bayonetta wasn't a terrible pick with the exception of the initial broken move set which was fixed in upsets. Still, most people felt "cheated" because they thought she didn't win the vote.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Min Min - ARMS content for Base game
Steve - 5 years of negotiations and rumors for Base game
Pyra & Mythra - Xenoblade 2 content for Base game
Kazuya - Heihachi having been considered for Sm4sh but moveset couldn't be implemented

How and where does Sephiroth fit into second chance/fix theory again? All I know is giving Final Fantasy more representation which is why some takes another Sonic character into account.

Sephiroth was mentioned in the Seven Squares leak which happened 2 years ago. So presumably, same as Steve in negotiations.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

This whole second chance/fix theory is why I think it would be worth keeping an eye on 1st parties like Dixie, a Rhythm Heaven rep, Mach Rider, and Ayumi Tachibana or even a Legends Pokemon Trainer coming with the starters in 1st, 2nd, and final evolutions (One of which would be Decidueye or one of his earlier evolutions).

Or even a BotW rep or second Sonic character for the same reason as Sephiroth as a means of more representation.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

If you gave a model, that is a clear indication that he was at least considered (even if in passing). We also got a spirit and other content. Granted, this isn't near the evidence that Rhythm Heaven or some of these other IP have gotten so it is a LONG SHOT. I would be very surprised if it was Rayman. I think we will end on a first-party. If you want more feedback, read the last 3-4 pages of the Rayman Discussion thread.

No that's not an evidence that he was considered, that's just an evidence that Ubisoft wanted him. Another evidence that Ubisoft wanted him is when they ask to vote for him at the time of the Smash 4 ballot. Nintendo and Sakurai never wanted him (for what we know).

 

[volbound1700]

No that's not an evidence that he was considered, that's just an evidence that Ubisoft wanted him. Another evidence that Ubisoft wanted him is when they ask to vote for him at the time of the Smash 4 ballot. Nintendo and Sakurai never wanted him (for what we know).

Link to that comment?

 

[MarioRaccoon]

No that's not an evidence that he was considered, that's just an evidence that Ubisoft wanted him. Another evidence that Ubisoft wanted him is when they ask to vote for him at the time of the Smash 4 ballot. Nintendo and Sakurai never wanted him (for what we know).

Even if a third party character is added into ultimate, I think some kind of negotiations must have happened before.

Yes, I agree that Ubisoft likely wanted Rayman at Smash 4 but Sakurai simple was not interested. But talks happening means that if they wanted it, it may be more easier than a completely new company.

We also know that they talked with Bethesda and likely Koei-Tecmo. These things takes some time to happen.

 

[volbound1700]

Even if a third party character is added into ultimate, I think some kind of negotiations must have happened before.

Yes, I agree that Ubisoft likely wanted Rayman at Smash 4 but Sakurai simple was not interested. But talks happening means that if they wanted it, it may be more easier than a completely new company.

We also know that they talked with Bethesda and likely Koei-Tecmo. These things takes some time to happen.

I agree with this. I DO NOT think Rayman is coming but he was at least discussed and considered. We don't know though. Most of the Smash character info and planning leaks years after the reveals.

I am not counting on Rayman. I would be ecstatic if he just got a Mii Costume at this point.

 

[MattX20]

And regarding the localization thing for Famicom Detective Club: localization is a very time consuming process, especially when it's done for the first time ever outside of Japan and worldwide. Localization is not something that is decided on late in development, it's something that has to be done very early on so they can release on or around the same time frame if that's the intention for it. And while it's true the games weren't given a physical release in the West, they did however get a royal treatment with not just ordinary physical releases, but also a massive Collector's Edition. Doom Eternal not being given a physical port for the Switch never stopped speculation for Doomslayer's inclusion either.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And regarding the localization thing for Famicom Detective Club: localization is a very time consuming process, especially when it's done for the first time ever outside of Japan and worldwide. Localization is not something that is decided on late in development, it's something that has to be done very early on so they can release on or around the same time frame if that's the intention for it. And while it's true the games weren't given a physical release in the West, they did however get a royal treatment with not just ordinary physical releases, but also a massive Collector's Edition. Doom Eternal not being given a physical port for the Switch never stopped speculation for Doomslayer's inclusion either. View attachment 320762

Comparing this to Doom Eternal misses the point entirely, I'd list why it's such a false comparison but I literally don't know where to even begin

 

[Rie Sonomura]

This whole second chance/fix theory is why I think it would be worth keeping an eye on 1st parties like Dixie, a Rhythm Heaven rep, Mach Rider, and Ayumi Tachibana or even a Legends Pokemon Trainer coming with the starters in 1st, 2nd, and final evolutions (One of which would be Decidueye or one of his earlier evolutions).

Or even a BotW rep or second Sonic character for the same reason as Sephiroth as a means of more representation.

The last one could fit Splatoon 2 as well; most of the Splatoon content in base is of the first game. 2 has a few music and spirits (no Hero mode or Salmon Run for instance) and Octo Expansion literally has only two spirits. I can make an easy challenger pack for Octoling or Off the Hook that focuses on 2/OE content

also, meme for tomorrow:

Kazuya’s presentation be like

 

[Guynamednelson]

Comparing this to Doom Eternal misses the point entirely, I'd list why it's such a false comparison but I literally don't know where to even begin

Also, when exactly did they decide FDC would get localized? This is why things are a bit more complicated than "X can be a shill pick, they're in!"

 

[Evil Trapezium]

What if the last fighter doesn't follow the rules of "second chance" theory?

That's all I got. Anyway I hope a Jin Kazama echo does happen even though I don't like echo fighters but Jin could have some Ken like differences to make him stand out better?

 

[RileyXY1]

And regarding the localization thing for Famicom Detective Club: localization is a very time consuming process, especially when it's done for the first time ever outside of Japan and worldwide. Localization is not something that is decided on late in development, it's something that has to be done very early on so they can release on or around the same time frame if that's the intention for it. And while it's true the games weren't given a physical release in the West, they did however get a royal treatment with not just ordinary physical releases, but also a massive Collector's Edition. Doom Eternal not being given a physical port for the Switch never stopped speculation for Doomslayer's inclusion either. View attachment 320762

Doom 2016 did receive a physical version for the Switch, so that argument is bad.

 

[Paraster]

The last one could fit Splatoon 2 as well; most of the Splatoon content in base is of the first game. 2 has a few music and spirits (no Hero mode or Salmon Run for instance) and Octo Expansion literally has only two spirits. I can make an easy challenger pack for Octoling or Off the Hook that focuses on 2/OE content

also, meme for tomorrow:

Kazuya’s presentation be like

What's the font this game uses for text? I want to change "Kratos" to "Kazuya" and make this perfect.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What if the last fighter doesn't follow the rules of "second chance" theory?

Won't deny as with many patterns and fan rules there is potentially a good chance of second chance/fix theory being broken with the last fighter.

Until then this is just speculation so we're not bored out of our minds and have something to talk about.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

What Rhythm heaven character would they want to push?
The Chorus Kids? A 3-in-1?

Karate Joe?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What Rhythm heaven character would they want to push?
The Chorus Kids? A 3-in-1?

Karate Joe?

If Sakurai couldn't make Rex work with Pyra & Mythra due to technical limitations, I don't think the Chorus Kids could either. It would probably be Karate Joe or even that reporter lady.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If Sakurai couldn't make Rex work with Pyra & Mythra due to technical limitations, I don't think the Chorus Kids could either. It would probably be Karate Joe or even that reporter lady.

Except he COULD get the Ice Climbers to work because of their simple appearance. Something the Chorus Kids also have.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

So how many of these cute theories do we have besides second chance theory and purple background theory?

 

[RileyXY1]

Except he COULD get the Ice Climbers to work because of their simple appearance. Something the Chorus Kids also have.

Except the Chorus Kids are a 3-in-1 fighter. He already had difficulty getting the Ice Climbers to work, it would be even worse if he threw in a 3rd fighter. An 8 player Smash where everyone plays as the Chorus Kids would basically be a 24-player Smash.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Done watching Papa's video

Would love if we got a full set of 6 Mii Costumes tomorrow!

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Except he COULD get the Ice Climbers to work because of their simple appearance. Something the Chorus Kids also have.

Ice Climbers are a 2 in 1 character. Chorus Kids are 3 and what Sakurai tried to do with Rex was a 3 in 1 character with Pyra and Mythra. Not a good comparison.

Except the Chorus Kids are a 3-in-1 fighter. He already had difficulty getting the Ice Climbers to work, it would be even worse if he threw in a 3rd fighter. An 8 player Smash where everyone plays as the Chorus Kids would basically be a 24-player Smash.

Sakurai exactly stated this why Rex with Pyra & Mythra couldn't have worked.