Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Spatman]

The Martin's color scheme theory was born in this forum/thread?
Can someone link the original post for me?

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Just thought of something...

What characters would get Japan to act in a salty way?

We always discuss salt in regards to the western demographic, after all. oh I don't want this mcjrpg dude this scramble mcbimbo guy is stupid etc

I think Rayman would probably ruffle some feathers due to his unpopularity in Japan

 

[3BitSaurus]

Just thought of something...

What characters would get Japan to act in a salty way?

We always discuss salt in regards to the western demographic, after all. oh I don't want this mcjrpg dude this scramble mcbimbo guy is stupid etc

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but wasn't Japan pretty salty about Little Mac and Ridley? Punch-Out and Metroid are heavily focused on the Western market, after all.

I'd imagine maybe some western MMO reps lik WoW could? I don't remember the demographics for those, but they seem less way popular in the east than, say, FFXIV and PSO.

Also, I'd argue most FPS reps would make people salty, since it's a historically bad genre in Japan, as far as I remember. Chief and Doom Slayer could circumvent that, because they still have a few supporters and even a few VTubers have been playing Doom, but TF, Portal and Half-Life would probably raise some eyebrows.

Finally, I'd argue MK could draw some salt because it's not as popular in Japan compared to other fighters, like Tekken or Guilty Gear. But it also seems to have a small community, so... who knows?

EDIT:

I think Rayman would probably ruffle some feathers due to his unpopularity in Japan

Oooh, yeah, forgot Rayman. Definitely.

 

[Eldrake]

Just thought of something...

What characters would get Japan to act in a salty way?

We always discuss salt in regards to the western demographic, after all. oh I don't want this mcjrpg dude this scramble mcbimbo guy is stupid etc

Spyro, most certainly.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but wasn't Japan pretty salty about Little Mac and Ridley? Punch-Out and Metroid are heavily focused on the Western market, after all.

I'd imagine maybe some western MMO reps lik WoW could? I don't remember the demographics for those, but they seem less way popular in the east than, say, FFXIV and PSO.

Also, I'd argue most FPS reps would make people salty, since it's a historically bad genre in Japan, as far as I remember. Chief and Doom Slayer could circumvent that, because they still have a few supporters and even a few VTubers have been playing Doom, but TF, Portal and Half-Life would probably raise some eyebrows.

Finally, I'd argue MK could draw some salt because it's not as popular in Japan compared to other fighters, like Tekken or Guilty Gear. But it also seems to have a small community, so... who knows?

EDIT:



Oooh, yeah, forgot Rayman. Definitely.

Good points!

I want to respectfully object to the FPS argument, however:

Apex Legends and Overwatch.
These two games have a huge Japanese following.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Good points!

I want to respectfully object to the FPS argument, however:

Apex Legends and Overwatch.
These two games have a huge Japanese following.

Huge or just decent?

That's a legitimate question. I know OW had a Japanese team in the pro circuit at one point, but not much else.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Good points!

I want to respectfully object to the FPS argument, however:

Apex Legends and Overwatch.
These two games have a huge Japanese following.

Apex Legends is an FPS?

Also, I don't want to be THAT person, but I wouldn't be surprised if those were the exceptions to the norm...

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Huge or just decent?

That's a legitimate question. I know OW had a Japanese team in the pro circuit at one point, but not much else.

You're right, I should make sure I don't end up exaggerating my statement lol
I can prove Apex with this picture and article:

Vtubers take over of Japanese esports with Apex Legends

Using Japan's most popular vtubers, Apex Legends esports events have drawn League of Legends World Championship viewership numbers.

www.upcomer.com

As for Overwatch:
Yeah, glad you sort of warned me. It only has a decent following, it's been declining a bit since February 2020.

https://overwatchleague.com/en-us/news/23317717

 

[rychu_supadude]

It's not like every single character in Smash needs to have a figure in order to be included; Little Mac, for example, didn't have any merchandise prior to his amiibo that I know of, and Greninja and Byleth wouldn't have had any kind of merchandise when they were developed, since they were based on concept art or pre-release versions of the game.

If a figure exists, he'll use it for reference, but it doesn't seem to be necessary. (he got some kind of robot figure as a placeholder for some unknown character - maybe Inkling? It's unclear)

There were a few Punch-Out figures released back in the 80s, but it's a bit of a moot point since they weren't nearly high quality enough for Sakurai to use as a character reference like with Pyra & Mythra. But yeah, just because he likes to use figures doesn't mean that he HAS to. That said, Richter is the only third-party who didn't have a figure at the time they got into Smash, and he's an Echo... at least for third-parties, you can absolutely bet that any character without merch isn't popular enough to get discussed anyway.

 

[chocolatejr9]

You're right, I should make sure I don't end up exaggerating my statement lol
I can prove Apex with this picture and article:

Vtubers take over of Japanese esports with Apex Legends

Using Japan's most popular vtubers, Apex Legends esports events have drawn League of Legends World Championship viewership numbers.

www.upcomer.com

As for Overwatch:
Yeah, glad you sort of warned me. It only has a decent following, it's been declining a bit since February 2020.

https://overwatchleague.com/en-us/news/23317717

So basically, Apex would be our EA rep, and Overwatch has been rightfully forgotten?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I remember some Japanese fans being really upset about Cloud and Incineroar for being Western bias picks which shows that the weirdly xenophobic arguments aren't just a Western thing at least, but I'm pretty sure people saying Japan doesn't have salt are judging through reaction videos on youtube and I don't think I've seen anything too bad in those, it's always posts on a forum or bad tweets, so I think people are looking in the wrong place for salt

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

As for Overwatch:
Yeah, glad you sort of warned me. It only has a decent following, it's been declining a bit since February 2020.

https://overwatchleague.com/en-us/news/23317717

Overwatch as a whole has been on the decline for the past 3 years lol

 

[GilTheGreat19]

So basically, Apex would be our EA rep, and Overwatch has been rightfully forgotten?

Probably. Unless Plants Vs Zombies prevails (plz god let Crazy Dave in somehow)

I remember some Japanese fans being really upset about Cloud and Incineroar for being Western bias picks which shows that the weirdly xenophobic arguments aren't just a Western thing at least, but I'm pretty sure people saying Japan doesn't have salt are judging through reaction videos on youtube and I don't think I've seen anything too bad in those, it's always posts on a forum or bad tweets, so I think people are looking in the wrong place for salt

Fair point. Speaking of Xenophobia, you can kinda like that back to Nintendo themselves, it's POSSIBLE the reason our roster is what it is (considering DLC, too) is because they prefer their conservative methods of working with companies they ALREADY have good relationships with and stick with genres they can work with. Who knows.

 

[Mamboo07]

Remind me again why we arguing over platformer and JRPG characters for Smash?

 

[osby]

Fair point. Speaking of Xenophobia, you can kinda like that back to Nintendo themselves, it's POSSIBLE the reason our roster is what it is (considering DLC, too) is because they prefer their conservative methods of working with companies they ALREADY have good relationships with and stick with genres they can work with. Who knows.

I wouldn't call it xenophobia.

There is a difference between going for stuff that doesn't have a language barrier issue and just going "I don't want that icky foreign stuff in my game!"

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Probably. Unless Plants Vs Zombies prevails (plz god let Crazy Dave in somehow)




Fair point. Speaking of Xenophobia, you can kinda like that back to Nintendo themselves, it's POSSIBLE the reason our roster is what it is (considering DLC, too) is because they prefer their conservative methods of working with companies they ALREADY have good relationships with and stick with genres they can work with. Who knows.

We know for a fact that there were language barrier concerns but those have seemingly died down after multiple deals with multiple Western companies throughout Ultimate. Xenophobia in the industry is more like how Japanese games get lambasted while Western games glamorized like "Ewww Mega Man Legends is too colourful and babylike", "Mr. Suda your project is too Japanese now make it like what we want to guarantee sales. It flopped? I told you Suda, it's too Japanese", "All Japanese games suck call me the most punk game developer in the industry", etc

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I wouldn't call it xenophobia.

There is a difference between going for stuff that doesn't have a language barrier issue and just going "I don't want that icky foreign stuff in my game!"

That's why I said "kinda"
Ofc Nintendo has worked with other companies in the western realm. The language barrier issue is certainly part of it, too.

 

[PSIGuy]

we're never getting a character that only released in the west (compared to getting several that only released in japan) and any western characters would similarly be reasonably popular in japan. so the closest thing is probably... a character representing a long-running series, but from an entry that's more idolized in the west than the east? like if instead of getting marth fire emblem we got eliwood. not lyn or hector, but eliwood.

Spoiler: spoiled for big reply

Open up your game.
Do a move with arsène behind.
No actually, do so with ALL of joker's move, even in slowmotion in training mode

Please do so,

Ignorance shouldn't be an excuses for trashing stuff.

I know Arsene attacks along with Joker, the point I was making is that Arsene as the only Persona being used is about as far as you can get from a Persona game as possible. For christ's sake the very -idea- of a Persona is that it's one of many faces you wear, and that you're a different person in different scenarios. A person with just one Persona is... a one-dimensional person. It's just the eponymous Jungian concept that the franchise is named after being ignored, is all.

This is just in, , and are only inspired characters in Smash, everyone else can go home.

The point I was making is that there are characters who have actually take stuff from their home game in moves other than their specials, not that those are the only characters to do so. Banjo, Terry, Belmonts, Ryu/Ken, Villager, Min-Min, Kirby etc. In Ultimate alone they did things like give Wario his shoulder bash while characters like Link always had the up and down thrust from Zelda 2. These aren't characters like Falcon or Fox who out of necessity get things made up.

It's almost like they don't actually care about their fake complaint and just creating nonexistent issues to unfairly downplay the characters they dislike with a bad faith argument.

How tf can a complaint be fake lmao. I legitimately feel that the DLC JRPG characters are contrived or unfitting. Whether it's forcing a gimmick in there that shouldn't be like comeback mechanics or missing the point of their home franchise.

 

[SKX31]

Because Football Manager is too realistic?

Didn't stop SEGA from using that IP in All-Stars Racing Transformed with a ridicolous car.

That said, Football Manager better be able to go Super Saiyan:

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but wasn't Japan pretty salty about Little Mac and Ridley? Punch-Out and Metroid are heavily focused on the Western market, after all.

I'd imagine maybe some western MMO reps lik WoW could? I don't remember the demographics for those, but they seem less way popular in the east than, say, FFXIV and PSO.

Also, I'd argue most FPS reps would make people salty, since it's a historically bad genre in Japan, as far as I remember. Chief and Doom Slayer could circumvent that, because they still have a few supporters and even a few VTubers have been playing Doom, but TF, Portal and Half-Life would probably raise some eyebrows.

Finally, I'd argue MK could draw some salt because it's not as popular in Japan compared to other fighters, like Tekken or Guilty Gear. But it also seems to have a small community, so... who knows?

I think that was the case with Mac, yes. This site compiled those reactions.

As for WoW - I don't believe that has dedicated Japanese servers, so yeah I do believe that could face the same kind of reaction.

Overwatch as a whole has been on the decline for the past 3 years lol

It's still rather big, but yes, it has experienced a slow drain (the commonly cited figure is 10 million active players now vs. 35 million at its peak). There are a lot of reasons why:

• Lack of content while Blizzard's working on Overwatch 2. Jeff's exit did not really help since the OW team lost a figurehead.
• Competitors like Riot's Valorant siphoned away a lot of the playerbase.
• Severe instability in the Overwatch League. While the OWL continues to do rather well, quite a few teams have experienced total wholesale roster changes and the previously tough schedule lead to quite a few retirements.

While the figure most likely includes China and South Korea (where Overwatch have a sizeable presence), it still is respectable all things considered.

 

[Perkilator]

Remind me again why we arguing over platformer and JRPG characters for Smash?

Because Smash Twitter started all of this.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

compared to getting several that only released in japan

I don't think this is a very fair comparison because the first two were almost cut from the worldwide release and the third one was a complete accident

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Did someone say

Football Manager?

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

I know Arsene attacks along with Joker, the point I was making is that Arsene as the only Persona being used is about as far as you can get from a Persona game as possible. For christ's sake the very -idea- of a Persona is that it's one of many faces you wear, and that you're a different person in different scenarios. A person with just one Persona is... a one-dimensional person. It's just the eponymous Jungian concept that the franchise is named after being ignored, is all.

How to prove you've never played Persona and just read a wikipedia article in one easy paragraph

You do know that in the Persona series, only main characters get access to multiple Personas, specifically because they're gifted with having the Wild Card, while literally anybody who doesn't have the Wild Card (i.e. every other supporting character, save for one or two exceptions) only has one Persona? Arsene is Joker's own Persona, any others are just demons he snags up and calls upon their powers.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Because Smash Twitter started all of this.

Mamboo already knew that, he likes stirring the pot and asking questions he already knows the answer to, especially after whatever argument had already long ended

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

How to prove you've never played Persona and just read a wikipedia article in one easy paragraph

You do know that in the Persona series, only main characters get access to multiple Personas, specifically because they're gifted with having the Wild Card, while literally anybody who doesn't have the Wild Card (i.e. every other supporting character, save for one or two exceptions) only has one Persona? Arsene is Joker's own Persona, any others are just demons he snags up and calls upon their powers.

I mean to be faaaair, it wasn't until Persona 3 when only the main character would wield more than one Persona but also P1 and the P2 duology don't exist so I don't blame you. But that's semantics lol.

I imagine they probably opted for something simpler because swapping between three different Personas might have been too much work and basically equate to making three characters for the price of one.

Maybe it's because they wanted to solely focus on using Persona related stuff because crack theory, they'll add SMT content later. But if that was the case, I think Joker having access to Izanagi and Orpheus would have been fine. Mementos already takes creative liberties by giving itself P3 ad P4 variants and albeit not canon, Joker can wield both of those Personas as DLC in 5.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

https://twitter.com/HoboKingNiklz/status/1401421866913386497?s=20

https://twitter.com/HoboKingNiklz/status/1401640179341959172?s=20

Another "leak" in the house, ofc it could be fake. People are good at whipping up fake but good looking "real" trailers.
I think it's probably fake, but what do y'all think?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I specifically remember people being upset with Little Mac in Japan. Or just outright confused by him more like. Banjo and Ridley were both welcomed tho, one for having a decent following and the other being that even Japan was aware of how much people wanted Ridley, and aside from Mac those are the most western sides picks I can think of.

 

[xzx]

It's not like every single character in Smash needs to have a figure in order to be included; Little Mac, for example, didn't have any merchandise prior to his amiibo that I know of, and Greninja and Byleth wouldn't have had any kind of merchandise when they were developed, since they were based on concept art or pre-release versions of the game.

If a figure exists, he'll use it for reference, but it doesn't seem to be necessary. (he got some kind of robot figure as a placeholder for some unknown character - maybe Inkling? It's unclear)

I never said that? Read my post again, especially the bolded part. This is DLC speculation and my post was only meant for the two fighters left in the pass and about something Sakurai has said.

It's funny though, I just had an inkling someone would misinterpret my post in just this exact way. No biggie though, it's okay. =)

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Lmk if the Twitter links work for y'all 0_0

 

[Technomage]

Here's a question based off the POTD for tonight:

水が苦手なこの人(?)たちは、水に入ると少しずつダメージを受けるようになっています。 pic.twitter.com/TcoFVYca1y

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) June 7, 2021

These characters (and ) take damage while swimming, who do you think could be added to have the same condition?

R.O.B. could have been a good choice, since unlike Mega Man and Samus by comparison, I don't think he's built with any waterproof stuff in mind.

Other candidates (excluding fire elementals) include Darunia/Daruk/Darmani (since Gorons sink instantly, as seen in Majora's Mask), Ba'Gamnan from Final Fantasy 12 (since his species, the Bangaa, are often weak against water), and Alucard/Dracula (since according to real world mythology, vampires can't cross running water).

 

[RednekGamurz]

https://twitter.com/HoboKingNiklz/status/1401421866913386497?s=20

https://twitter.com/HoboKingNiklz/status/1401640179341959172?s=20

Another "leak" in the house, ofc it could be fake. People are good at whipping up fake but good looking "real" trailers.
I think it's probably fake, but what do y'all think?

It's fake.

https://twitter.com/paraspikey/status/1401238641469362176

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Lmk if the Twitter links work for y'all 0_0

Possible Reveal Trailer Leak

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

m.imgur.com

It seems like it’s hinting at Chief. The thing that makes me think it’s game is how bland the backgrounds are and how there’s no discernible location at all. The close up of the Mario model does look good but Master Chief’s looks… off. I dunno why.

Edit: yeah it was fake I figured

 

[GilTheGreat19]

It's fake.

https://twitter.com/paraspikey/status/1401238641469362176

Mans did his research.
Well that's nice.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I tend to judge characters by “Do they do something only that character can do?” and I gotta say that Hero, Terry, Min Min and Steve pass that test more than the others. Does that mean the others are bad choices? No, Sepiroth is one of my favorite DLC characters specifically for being a character rather than a Home Game Simulator. Still, it is a metric that’s a lot more appealing to me personally than this sterile business speculation of name recognition and importance. What makes a character stick with people in the end is personal connection or fun factor and people are allowed to not have that click regardless of how many subgenres a character personally grandfathered.

 

[Speed Weed]

Ayo, you guys were talking about Phantasy Star?

Aight, so it's like a big old influential JRPG series from back in the Master System/Mega Drive days, then it turned into Phantasy Star Online, an MMO series that's also really big and gives SEGA lots of the monies. That's essentially its abridged history. With that said, this might just be me knowing, like, nothing about PSO2, but I ain't really feeling Matoi tbh. Personally, I think it'd be Alis from the first PS game. A lot of the posts I'm seeing kinda give off the impression of thinking of PSO and only PSO when it comes to this, while yeah, these are the more successful parts of the franchise, but I feel like Alis is a more iconic overall character than anyone from the MMOs.

As for if it could be our next SEGA rep? I could totally see it! People will talk about a second Sonic rep, people will talk about Puyo, people will talk about Yakuza, and these are all choices that make perfect sense, but y'all better pay some attention to Phantasy Star or else I'll smack ya. As I said, it's like a really big classic JRPG series, and on the Online side of things, SEGA do be getting the big monies from it. As for other potential SEGA candidates, I'm surprised Sakura Wars didn't come up in this recent conversation, it's also really big and it does get semi-frequent discussion. Shenmue is another pretty influential series that often gets the shaft in these conversations. I'd have totally been behind Virtua Fighter as a possibility had it not been for the fact that the Miis already came back. Streets of Rage is an incredibly beloved series from an unrepresented genre - although I personally think it's got enough merit to get in, I'm just not sure if it's on their radar. There's also SMT of course, we've been talking about it all the time as of late. And while it's not this super likely candidate that everyone is sleeping HARD on or anything, I'm personally really partial to the idea of Opa-Opa or Space Harrier as a sort of Pac-Man for retro SEGA.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Super Monkey Ball or bust

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

It's still rather big, but yes, it has experienced a slow drain (the commonly cited figure is 10 million active players now vs. 35 million at its peak). There are a lot of reasons why:

• Lack of content while Blizzard's working on Overwatch 2. Jeff's exit did not really help since the OW team lost a figurehead.
• Competitors like Riot's Valorant siphoned away a lot of the playerbase.
• Severe instability in the Overwatch League. While the OWL continues to do rather well, quite a few teams have experienced total wholesale roster changes and the previously tough schedule lead to quite a few retirements.

While the figure most likely includes China and South Korea (where Overwatch have a sizeable presence), it still is respectable all things considered.

As someone literally between rounds in OW right now, I don't take one single "active player" stat for OW as the truth. They have NEVER cracked down on the rampant smurfing problem. Many, many people have accounts for each role. Many people have lower SR smurfs to carry friends. 95% of low levels I run into are sub 500 gamerscore. Give me the "average unique IPs/month" stat and then I'll bite. I bet that number plummets. Console player or not, I shouldnt see games force-end due to too many leavers that can't be replaced quickly enough, on a weekend night if the playerbase is so strong.

What I believe the problem boils down to, from what I've gathered from many current/old players, is that Blizzard refuses to moderate their game. Anyone who's halfway decent at FPS games isn't going to stick around for loss after loss due to throwers, cheaters, and smurfs.

It also doesn't help that they clearly had a hard time properly balancing the game post launch.

"let's design a game around team play, combined effort for all the roles, and mega moves that help pace out the game."

"now let's make over half the cast DPS, completely neglect to punish those that actively sabotage games, allow our SR system to be completely undermined, and make sure almost every single hero we release after launch has an ult-stopping button that has low cool down."

I enjoy OW's brilliant cast of characters, maybe its because it kind of functions like smash but with guns and an objective. But I can't STAND the way they've handled the game post launch. Super, super hostile community/gameplay. I don't believe OW2 will see even half of the long term success of the first.

 

[Curious Villager]

Just thought of something...

What characters would get Japan to act in a salty way?

We always discuss salt in regards to the western demographic, after all. oh I don't want this mcjrpg dude this scramble mcbimbo guy is stupid etc

iirc they weren't too fond of Little Mac, Doomguy or Master Chief (forgot which one it was..) and Ike's Smash 4 redesign, what with the Green Samus and Gorilla memes and all...
At least from some translated message board posts people shared from Japan sometime ago.

 

[Technomage]

Just thought of something...

What characters would get Japan to act in a salty way?

We always discuss salt in regards to the western demographic, after all. oh I don't want this mcjrpg dude this scramble mcbimbo guy is stupid etc

I'm thinking Scorpion might, since he comes from a game with lots of gore (complete with blood, decapitations, amputations, internal organs, skinning, and more), which Japan really does not like.

 

[volbound1700]

On the flipside though, Lloyd would be the 3rd "Anime swordsman" in a row.



To us hardcore Smash speculators, it'd be like "Wow, we've talked about this guy since Brawl. Neat."

To the 99% rest of the online fanbase, "REEEEEEEEEE ANIME SWOOOOOOORDSSSSSSSS."

I will say this and I notice a trend (even with myself). It seems like JRPG/Anime characters seem to be less popular if they are more recent characters and have not been a part of a long running franchise (i.e. Byleth, Mythra/Pyra, Joker). If the Franchise has been around since at least N64/PS1 era and is still running, it seems to get a lot more support.

I think it is more of an old vs. new fanbase than a JRPG vs. Other. Some of the newer IP doesn't relate to full fanbase because they just haven't played the IP or have emotional connection to it.

I will say this, I am more of a fan of adding long-running franchises than characters that have only appeared in recent games.