Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[GoodGrief741]

I still don't quite understand why so many people seem to want a Smash movie/show/whatever. The vast majority of the characters don't even speak...it feels hard to imagine such a thing existing and not being completely cheesy.

Barring Link most characters in Smash can canonically speak though. They'd just have to give them fitting dialogue.

People complained when clone characters that few people cared about got removed from Melee / Brawl.

See I think this is revisionism because I don't remember people caring about the Melee cuts barring Mewtwo. Even Roy I only saw support once Smash 4 came along and gave a lot of love to Fire Emblem (plus Ike came back). But my perception of it is that at that point cuts were expected and some series rotating out characters was seen as natural as Mario getting a newcomer every game.

I mean, it's always going to be in Ultimate's shadow even with a reboot, only after they build off said reboot will it not.


Like, I don't think it's a bold claim to make that the next game will be very "Melee vs Brawl" in terms of feeling, or worse, "Classic Paper Mario vs Modern Paper Mario."

As someone whose favorite Smash is Brawl, I say bring it.

Does this mean I have to hand in my Smash fan license

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Barring Link most characters in Smash can canonically speak though. They'd just have to give them fitting dialogue.

See I think this is revisionism because I don't remember people caring about the Melee cuts barring Mewtwo. Even Roy I only saw support once Smash 4 came along and gave a lot of love to Fire Emblem (plus Ike came back). But my perception of it is that at that point cuts were expected and some series rotating out characters was seen as natural as Mario getting a newcomer every game.

As someone whose favorite Smash is Brawl, I say bring it.

Does this mean I have to hand in my Smash fan license

Yes. Yes it does.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/HSNscEQVyM

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 31, 2021

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Barring Link most characters in Smash can canonically speak though. They'd just have to give them fitting dialogue.

What are you talking about? Link can speak just fine.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Man I feel like the rumor mill hasn't been churning too hard this pre e3 season. Sure a fair share of text "leaks" but I haven't seen one blurry, poorly cropped photo yet. Cmon internet, I know you're better than this

 

[Pillow]

See I think this is revisionism because I don't remember people caring about the Melee cuts barring Mewtwo. Even Roy I only saw support once Smash 4 came along and gave a lot of love to Fire Emblem (plus Ike came back). But my perception of it is that at that point cuts were expected and some series rotating out characters was seen as natural as Mario getting a newcomer every game.

Yeah, but even the large complaints about Mewtwo being missing (who was largely recognized as a fairly trash character in Melee) is kind of a good indicator of community response. Of course, like anything people will get over it, and it does depend on which characters are cut, but generally speaking I think Nintendo will try to replicate Ultimate's success as much as they can, and an "easy" first step to do so is trying to make sure everyone comes back.

Of course, it's not entirely up to them for 3rd party characters, but I think they'll probably at least make the effort to try.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Man I feel like the rumor mill hasn't been churning too hard this pre e3 season. Sure a fair share of text "leaks" but I haven't seen one blurry, poorly cropped photo yet. Cmon internet, I know you're better than this

Maybe once we get a little closer...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yeah, but even the large complaints about Mewtwo being missing (who was largely recognized as a fairly trash character in Melee) is kind of a good indicator of community response. Of course, like anything people will get over it, and it does depend on which characters are cut, but generally speaking I think Nintendo will try to replicate Ultimate's success as much as they can, and an "easy" first step to do so is trying to make sure everyone comes back.

Of course, it's not entirely up to them for 3rd party characters, but I think they'll probably at least make the effort to try.

Square is the biggest hurdle in this regard. Given just how long it takes to get Square to do anything.

 

[Idon]

This game will only either be equally matched, superior, or inferior to a hypothetical "Ultimate Deluxe"

Isn't that... every possibility?

"Y can only be =, >, or < X" includes everything.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Yeah, but even the large complaints about Mewtwo being missing (who was largely recognized as a fairly trash character in Melee) is kind of a good indicator of community response. Of course, like anything people will get over it, and it does depend on which characters are cut, but generally speaking I think Nintendo will try to replicate Ultimate's success as much as they can, and an "easy" first step to do so is trying to make sure everyone comes back.

Of course, it's not entirely up to them for 3rd party characters, but I think they'll probably at least make the effort to try.

See but if the standard of what characters people will miss is Mewtwo, one of the most iconic characters in the biggest franchise ever, that leaves a lot of leeway to cut someone without it being a huge deal. I think that still applies after Ultimate if the fanbase is open-minded about it. And to be fair, the fanbase is usually quite savvy about the inner workings, hence why Snake's absence in 4 was received with a "makes sense" and Cloud was expected to get cut.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Square is the biggest hurdle in this regard. Given just how long it takes to get Square to do anything.

I’m more worried about Konami. After all Snake didn’t return at all in 4 and I have a feeling Konami’s douchebag phase with the pachislots and other underhanded **** had something to do with it

 

[Pillow]

Square is the biggest hurdle in this regard. Given just how long it takes to get Square to do anything.

Well, there's likely going to be a lot of time until the next game anyway, so who knows what'll happen. Maybe Konami will have completely imploded by then.

 

[Shroob]

See but if the standard of what characters people will miss is Mewtwo, one of the most iconic characters in the biggest franchise ever, that leaves a lot of leeway to cut someone without it being a huge deal. I think that still applies after Ultimate if the fanbase is open-minded about it. And to be fair, the fanbase is usually quite savvy about the inner workings, hence why Snake's absence in 4 was received with a "makes sense" and Cloud was expected to get cut.

I mean, it wasn't like Snake's absence was taken lying down.


There were still a lot of people who were hopeful up to the end that he'd return, and from everything we've heard, just off fan polls and Sakurai's own comments, Snake did VERY well in the ballot, meaning people didn't want him to be cut.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There was a very small amount of people who wanted the returning clones too, but even then, that minority is clearly important to Sakurai, as that's what got Dr. Mario his own slot again in 4. That doesn't mean it'll work for everyone. It didn't for Pichu, who is a rather iconic Pokemon, either. It didn't work for Young Link either. Everyone is Here of course has the ballot to thank, but as noted, Smash's biggest selling point is the characters. That's literally why Sakurai made it a Nintendo All-Star game for the first two entries, to sell better. It was a more generic fighter beforehand when it came to character choices.

But yeah, they are definitely not that complained about as cuts. It's generally the character moreso than the fact they're clones. Ganondorf is hugely popular, and Pichu is varied due to being the mascot of Baby Pokemon as is. Roy was more favorable in Smash than his own game, so that makes sense too. Young Link was kind of shrugged at due to being effectively replaced by Toon Link(who did use YL's data to be created).

Of course, some don't like cuts in general, and that's understandable too. Every character is interesting in their own right. Ice Climbers got a huge amount of backlash, despite being from a fairly poor-selling game. If you're the only character from a franchise, that's a far bigger cut than just a clone. Likewise, just cause you're unique doesn't mean you have a massive following either(Corrin and Byleth are noted as characters many are fine with cutting). Etc.

I still expect cuts if a port isn't doable, but licensing will be difficult anyway.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I’m more worried about Konami. After all Snake didn’t return at all in 4 and I have a feeling Konami’s douchebag phase with the pachislots and other underhanded **** had something to do with it

Metal Gear also feels like an afterthought in Ultimate, but given how healthy Castlevania's content was i'm not THAT worried.

It seems like a Metal Gear problem to me lol

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean, it wasn't like Snake's absence was taken lying down.


There were still a lot of people who were hopeful up to the end that he'd return, and from everything we've heard, just off fan polls and Sakurai's own comments, Snake did VERY well in the ballot, meaning people didn't want him to be cut.

That's still a fanbase who's able to separate what they want from what they think is possible. Mind you, I voted for Snake on the ballot. I wanted the guy back more than anything. But that didn't keep me from understanding why he was out and appreciating what Smash 4 did have to offer (some of which might not have been there had Snake returned), and I don't think I'm an outlier in that regard.

 

[subterrestrial]

It's not the only thing

But the roster is why we're spending soo much time on this site debating who the DLC is, and to that, the roster is a big, BIG part of Smash, big enough to be used as a marketing gimmick for Ultimate via "EVERYONE IS HERE".

Sakurai himself said everyone is here is probably never happening again

hopefully they change the core gameplay in the next smash game

 

[Shroob]

That's still a fanbase who's able to separate what they want from what they think is possible. Mind you, I voted for Snake on the ballot. I wanted the guy back more than anything. But that didn't keep me from understanding why he was out and appreciating what Smash 4 did have to offer (some of which might not have been there had Snake returned), and I don't think I'm an outlier in that regard.

Would you ever go back to Smash 4 though?


Every Smash game has something to offer, except for Smash 4 really.


64 has the nostaglia(And up and coming mod scene)

Melee is Melee

Brawl has Subspace

Ultimate is basically Smash 4, but better, in that regard, Smash 4 is the one game in the series that really doesn't have anything to make it stand out anymore. Portability? Ultimate does it. Singleplayer? Ultimate's arguably better. Roster? Ultimate. Only thing that really wins out is 3DS having Smash Run.

 

[Louie G.]

In retrospect it's honestly insane to me that Mewtwo of all characters ever got cut. I hope we at least never have to worry about that again, with how loud the outcry was for his return and the fact that he's proven himself as one of the most consistently marketable and iconic Pokemon over the course of the series' 20+ year history. If I had to cut down to only two Pokemon, Mewtwo would stay.

I suppose at the time of Brawl things were a little bit more malleable than they are now, although I'm pretty sure Mewtwo was still massively popular. But Mewtwo genuinely feels like the one time a genuine must-have essential part of the roster was cut loose, and it's scary to imagine that sort of thing repeating itself in the... very, very distant future, but still. I feel like 5 games in these things are pretty different than they used to be, though.

 

[KillerCage]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/HSNscEQVyM

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 31, 2021

HEY! IT'S CAPCOM VS. SNK: MARK OF THE MILLENNIUM!

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Sakurai himself said everyone is here is probably never happening again

hopefully they change the core gameplay in the next smash game

Wouldnt it be funny if all that meant was Pichu getting the axe again? lol

 

[Shroob]

Sakurai himself said everyone is here is probably never happening again

hopefully they change the core gameplay in the next smash game

Yes, we know.


That's why people theorize the next installment in the series could be a straight up reboot.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Would you ever go back to Smash 4 though?


Every Smash game has something to offer, except for Smash 4 really.


64 has the nostaglia(And up and coming mod scene)

Melee is Melee

Brawl has Subspace

Ultimate is basically Smash 4, but better, in that regard, Smash 4 is the one game in the series that really doesn't have anything to make it stand out anymore. Portability? Ultimate does it. Singleplayer? Ultimate's arguably better. Roster? Ultimate. Only thing that really wins out is 3DS having Smash Run.

Smash 4 is absolutely the last Smash I'd return to. That has nothing to do with its roster though. If Ultimate had cut characters from it I'd still see little reason to return to it.

 

[PeridotGX]

in smash 6, they will cut rosalina.

luma will still be in, just not rosalina.

 

[MooMew64]

I've been told my viewpoint on the future Smash games is pessimistic, and no one likes to hear nor really wants to talk about cuts.

And truth be told, while I respect the opinions of those who disagree with my stances on the matter...I really, really doubt "Everyone is Here!" is happening ever again. People always cite "Sakurai can do anything!", "He's always one-upping himself! He'll make an even bigger roster next time", or "They could just port it!"

And yeah, they could.

But they still need to renegotiate rights. Porting a game doesn't mean they can just indefinitely use characters and content for however long they like, and a lot can change with company relationships and even Nintendo's own position in the industry in the easily 5+ years it'll take to get the next Smash. Heck, the next game might not even be made by Sakurai depending oat where he's at in life and how he feels about the series when the time to select a Director comes.

IMO: Cuts are inevitable. No one likes the idea, I certainly don't, but I don't think it's realistic to expect them never happening again. Someway, somehow, we're gonna lose someone at some point. Nothing lasts forever, so appreciate "Everyone is Here!" while ya got it.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

In retrospect it's honestly insane to me that Mewtwo of all characters ever got cut. I hope we at least never have to worry about that again, with how loud the outcry was for his return and the fact that he's proven himself as one of the most consistently marketable and iconic Pokemon over the course of the series' 20+ year history. If I had to cut down to only two Pokemon, Mewtwo would stay.

I suppose at the time of Brawl things were a little bit more malleable than they are now, although I'm pretty sure Mewtwo was still massively popular. But Mewtwo genuinely feels like the one time a genuine must-have essential part of the roster was cut loose, and it's scary to imagine that sort of thing repeating itself in the... very, very distant future, but still. I feel like 5 games in these things are pretty different than they used to be, though.

I believe out of the Forbidden 7, it had the most leftover data found in Brawl's files, so it was probably one of the last characters to be victim to time constraints.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

In my opinion, everyone will be sad that characters will be cut... and then Geno, Crash, Sora, Dante, Doomguy and Master Chief get in and the hype trains rolls once more.

Fighting game cuts are inevitable. Here's to the Bridget fans from Guilty Gear (like me).

 

[Arcanir]

Smash is pretty much stuck in a corner because Ultimate set high expectations for the next game due to its roster achieving such a huge feat of having everyone back, but said feat is probably not sustainable in its current form. There's a reason why the majority of Fighting games don't reach the numbers Smash has and that's because eventually the time and resources required to maintain such a roster becomes too demanding for the development team to handle, so they cut down to what's feasible and go from there. Smash also has another potential issue in that having as many different third parties in the mix as it does means an increased amount of work spent on negotiations, working out payments, and licensing for all those parties and making sure they all reach an agreement. It's not nearly out of the realm of possibility that something breaks down and the companies can't reach that agreement, we saw Konami burn every bridge it could back in the Smash 4 days and while that's a more extreme case something like that can happen again and that gates a character from returning.

Ultimate is a special game and I don't think any of us would trade it for anything, but its situation may not be able to repeated again and again and again. Cuts aren't done out of malice or cheapness, but because of necessity, and we may reach a point where keeping the entire roster isn't feasible and they have to move forward in a different way. It will be difficult, but it's something they'll tackle when the time comes.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

In my opinion, everyone will be sad that characters will be cut... and then Geno, Crash, Sora, Dante, Doomguy and Master Chief get in and the hype trains rolls once more.

Fighting game cuts are inevitable. Here's to the Bridget fans from Guilty Gear (like me).

That one boxer dude from the first Street fighter game was cut and has never once came back in the over 30 years of SF.

 

[7NATOR]

The one thing I will say about the Next Smash, is I think Western Content is gonna have a much Bigger Focus than previous games

I also think the good thing about Ultimate, when it comes to negotiations, is that Ultimate gave Smash huge creditability and hype that it can use for future games. Smash games have sold really well in the past, but Ultimate is a different beast in that it became the best selling Fighting game in history, and the Marketing they have done for the characters reveals have been so top notch, that Smash reveals now leads the conversation of whatever gaming event or direct it's shown off at

At the least, I can see more and more companies being down for having their characters in Smash, which is good for negotiations. Of course there's more to this, but I think it's advantage we can thank Ultimate for

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

All Smash 4 had of note otherwise was Customs, and they weren't that great. Grinding for 'em to get extra sellable items? Eh.

I mean, I enjoyed it for some time, and do try to get one of every equipment, but even the custom moves weren't great either.

Fun idea, but that's it. I however did like we still had some kind of Target Test of sorts. Even if it was only good for getting customs/trophies. The only real problem with the customs was that you could easily get repeats of custom moves/mii costumes, which was a problem with the RNG data not being programmed carefully enough. Fix that, and it's wayyyyyy better.

One could argue that it's easier to grind Target Blast to get custom equipment than play through Classic(in Ultimate) to get enough cash. On the other hand, Target Blast isn't that great either. Classic's only real issue in Ultimate is the long and boring credit sequence that if you actually want anything decent out of it, you have to kill your fingers button mashing. You can't hold down the button for multifire. Ouch.

Saying this as a girl who loves to grind items? I haven't even gotten all of Smash 4's costumes either. It just got too tedious. And this is just the 3DS version. Wii U version is less fun too. Smash Run I do like, but when it kept freezing on me right before it recorded the final data, I lost a bit of interest in it. It's neat, but I actually found the SSE a bit more fun(mostly due to having more to properly explore without usually a time limit). Albeit, Brawl's only issue I've found, if I ignore it overusing the main theme a tad remix-wise, is that Trophies are way too difficult to get randomly. Bosses aside. Smash 4 definitely was easier to collect stuff in comparison, even with some annoying tasks(3DS or Wii U version).

I'd say Ultimate's big weakness was Home Run Contest not being available from the start, but the modes felt complete enough otherwise. Albeit, the lack of a better All-Star doesn't help. A glorified Multi-Man is far less fun in comparison, due to no break between a character rush. That's why it was neat as its own separate mode. I also found it better in Melee and Brawl, but it felt a bit more balanced. Just having the "Fighting" Team made it a little easier to fight overall, and get the various character achievements done. It was still tedious, but didn't have major disadvantages towards you. Like, the worst that happened is stuff like random bob-ombs, your fingers getting too sweaty, or you're just playing Cruel Mode and you expect to not do that well.

 

[perfectchaos83]

That one boxer dude from the first Street fighter game was cut and has never once came back in the over 30 years of SF.

The first Street Fighter game doesn't even really have a "roster". The game was essentially a boss rush. Regardless, Both him and Balrog are based on Mike Tyson, so it's more likely to just be a repurposed character. At least until SFV where Mike makes an appearance in one of Balrog's SFV Arcade endings.

 

[Sage of Ice]

ehh, we've reached critical mass and i fully expect cuts, but i'd like to be able to keep my top six on the same roster just a little while longer.

unpopular opinion but when trimming happens, they could start with 3rd parties and echoes as far as i'm concerned.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Let's have some fun..
Come up with splash screen taglines, either for your MWs or for E3-potentials

I'll start:
Doomslayer Unleashes Hell!
Crash Comes to Smash!
Ahri Joins the Smash League!
Tracer brings the cavalry!

Hayabusa the original best fighter that was always a part of Smash! Yes, from the very beginning!

Another idea, Smash spin-off series. That's another way other fighting game franchises bring back old playable characters or give bigger spotlights to the less important ones of the main series!

Super Smash Karts!

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Tbh I would like to see Smash reach the milestone of 100 before any cuts happen at least

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly I can see Konami's stuff coming back pretty easily given that their own press releases seem to indicate a company quite willing to license out their properties to other studios for a decent potential profit.

Given that stuff like Momotaro Dentetsu's sold 2 million plus copies on Switch in just Japan, I don't think they're inclined to raise much fuss about inclusions in Smash as long the check clears.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Honestly I can see Konami's stuff coming back pretty easily given that their own press releases seem to indicate a company quite willing to license out their properties to other studios for a decent potential profit.

Given that stuff like Momotaro Dentetsu's sold 2 million plus copies on Switch in just Japan, I don't think they're inclined to raise much fuss about inclusions in Smash as long the check clears.

So what you’re saying is when it comes to companies having their stuff in smash;

I’m tired and just want to meme

 

[GoodGrief741]

Tbh I would like to see Smash reach the milestone of 100 before any cuts happen at least

That's a bit of a double-edged sword if you ask me. Ultimate will end with 82 unique characters. Let's say those 82 characters come back and so we see a similar dev cycle to Ultimate's. So, 6 base game newcomers - I'd say that's the best case scenario. It would then take for that hypothetical game to get 12 more newcomers just to get to 100. So, that's the best case scenario, and it'd cost let's say $60 of DLC on top of the price of the base game.

I'd just rather get those 18 newcomers in the base game, where they're actually integrated into the game and don't cost me the price of two.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That one boxer dude from the first Street fighter game was cut and has never once came back in the over 30 years of SF.

I know you mean Mike, but Mike and Balrog are practically the same character.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

So what you’re saying is when it comes to companies having their stuff in smash;

I’m tired and just want to meme

Definitely a meme post but essentially yeah. Money plays a factor with each company, but different third parties will have different priorities about specific franchises. Konami was going through its slow motion PR disaster with Kojima circa Smash 4, and didn't really have a terribly strong relationship with Nintendo at the time either. But now, with the aforementioned Momotaro Dentetsu game, Super Bomberman R being a timed exclusive on Switch, and even (dubious quality aside) titles like a new Contra that get highlighted at E3?

It feels like a company with a lot of incentive to trust Nintendo's presentation of fighters in Smash, especially given the money involved.