Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[JOJONumber691]

Something I've been thinking about: I miss the fact that SSB4 had a handful of standalone DLC stages. Only one was new, Super Mario Maker, but there were also returning stages brought back. We got Small Battlefield, which in my mind is analogous to getting the Miiverse stage on Wii U as a free bonus, but I would happily throw a few bucks at the Smash team to get Woolly World or Pac-Maze back. Hell, I'd even pay for Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2.

Yeah. Like that'll ever happen!

 

[Dinoman96]

Who honestly cares what Geno's narrative role in the story is. We've had plenty of Mario characters that have had "side" roles in Smash like Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Daisy, and Piranha Plant. More if you don't count spinoff titles like Luigi, Peach, and Dr. Mario.

All of those characters are in more than one game, though.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think we’ll be getting stand-alone stages in free updates if small battlefield is an indicator

Small Battlefield was cheap enough to make that I don't see it being a sign of bigger things to come.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Small Battlefield was cheap enough to make that I don't see it being a sign of bigger things to come.

The WoL boss stages perhaps? They’re TECHNICALLY already in the game, just set “selectable outside WoL = yes” or something

 

[Dinoman96]

Small Battlefield was probably something the devs threw together to keep us occupied because they knew how long Steve was gonna take to make (had to wait a full three months after Min Min's release).

 

[SpecterFlower]

Who honestly cares what Geno's narrative role in the story is. We've had plenty of Mario characters that have had "side" roles in Smash like Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Daisy, and Piranha Plant. More if you don't count spinoff titles like Luigi, Peach, and Dr. Mario.

Clearly what's preventing Geno from making a Smash appearance isn't related to how close he is to Mario in game importance, because in a franchise called "Super Mario" I doubt anyone else would come remotely close.

None of those character are one offs though, all of them make regular appearances in the spin offs and main games, Geno has only been in one spin off 2 decades, Rosalina and Bowser Jr are not comparable to Geno at all.

 

[Dinoman96]

Daisy will also never be a good example for these kinds of things because she's literally just a set of alternate skins of Peach with a few different animations in her own character slot, not a completely new character that would take actual effort and development time like Geno would.

Maybe they could just make Geno an echo of Mii Gunner and call it a day lol

 

[Idon]

All of those characters are in more than one game, though.

None of those character are one offs though, all of them make regular appearances in the spin offs and main games, Geno has only been in one spin off 2 decades, Rosalina and Bowser Jr are not comparable to Geno at all.

Well that's true enough, but that's not especially my point. If SMRPG was a Duology or Trilogy of games 2 decades ago then I still don't think his chances would be that much better.

My point was that it's his age, lack of marketability, and proximity to much more valuable IPs that makes him almost impossible to consider for a Smash inclusion, not on where Geno falls on "Main" or "Side" character line in the sand.

 

[Perkilator]

SEX
DRUGS
VIOLENCE
Men in tights!

lol

Someone ring up in Hood

 

[TheCJBrine]

Daisy will also never be a good example for these kinds of things because she's literally just a set of alternate skins of Peach with a few different animations in her own character slot, not a completely new character that would take actual effort and development time like Geno would.

Maybe they could just make Geno an echo of Mii Gunner and call it a day lol

Daisy was a stand in for Peach and doesn't do much different from her in spin offs aside from flower power stuff, which they put into her animations; I don't see how that can tie into Geno being a mii gunner echo when he's shown to be more unique than that.

Although Daisy could've at least been a semi-clone without Peach's SMB2 floating, I think.

 

[SharkLord]

And here's another big writeup. Grab a snack, this might actually surpass the Adolpost.

Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei
Reimu hails from the Touhou Project, usually just shortened to Touhou and officially titled Project Shrine Maiden in the West (Though nobody actually calls it that). Touhou is classified as a "doujin soft" game, a Japanese term for video games made by hobbyists for fun rather than profit. The term is basically the Japanese equivalent of an indie, and has a fair amount of overlap; As such, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call Touhou an indie as well.

Touhou started in 1996, with the release of Highly Responsive to Prayers for the PC-98. There, Reimu was portrayed as an inexperienced shrine maiden who had to guide around a bouncing Yin-Yang Orb in what was essentially an Arkanoid clone. The following games began to solidify the standard Touhou formula; A top-down shoot-em-up with intricate and difficult patterns, spread out across six increasingly difficult levels and an extra stage.

Starting with the sixth game, Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, the series moved away from the PC-98 and moved to Windows instead. This also brought about a soft reboot for the series; Only Reimu and her friend Marisa carried over, with radically different designs, the setting was established and developed a much tighter continuity, and various gameplay elements were implemented that would become series mainstays. The following game, Perfect Cherry Blossom, weeded out the more of the PC-98 era's elements and solidified the series in completely.

As of current, the Touhou Project has 17 mainline games, including the PC-98 releases. However, it has a sizable number of spin-off titles as well; These games are indicated by a decimal point in their numbering, based on the mainline titles they were released between-For example, Immaterial and Missing Power is numbered 7.5, and Fairy Wars is the 12.8th. These spin-offs include six fighting games, five unorthodox shooters, and an upcoming side-scrolling action game. In addition, Touhou has a sizeable amount of print works and music albums, expanding it's universe even further. These supplementary materials have good synergy with the games, with just about every game character getting a mention, and a couple characters from the books making appearances in the games.

Touhou takes place in a haunted region known as Gensokyo, sealed off from the Outside World, and housing humans and youkai alike. In Touhou, youkai are sustained by human fear. This becomes problematic when humans stop believing in superstitions and folklore. Gensokyo is a land where forgotten things go, like extinct animals or lost tools, making it a safe haven for weakened youkai. Gensokyo is separated from the Outside World by the Great Hakurei Barrier, which is maintained by the Hakurei Shrine, managed by Reimu herself. Since Gensokyo is depended on the existence of the barrier, Reimu has a very important job on her hands.

In order to perpetuate Genoskyo's existence, the spell card system was put in place. The spell card system acts as an equalizer, so that humans may defend themselves and youkai may sustain themselves, without bloodshed from either party. In gameplay, this serves to justify the existence of the danmaku patterns, right down to the names. The ease of battle, coupled with the lack of injury, has also led to the inhabitants of Gensokyo fighting at the drop of a hat for varying reasons, often times just because.

The main crux of the game's plots revolve around Incidents; Various abnormal events. These Incidents vary in severity, from something as life-threatening as an eternal winter to SUDDENLY, FLYING BOAT. Reimu, Marisa, and whoever else they may have brought along then set out to resolve these Incidents by beating up everyone in their path until they get to the culprit. Due to the aforementioned spell card system, the culprit usually caused the Incident just because they were bored, and are let off the hook just as easily. There are some exceptions, but the amount of instigators who weren't forgiven can be counted on one hand.

An interesting thing to note is Touhou's staggeringly-large cast of characters, with the majority having a minor role and a very vague personality. This leads to many different interpretations, as well as minor characters suddenly becoming extremely popular. It should also be noted that at least 95% of the entire cast is female, with the only recurring males being a non-combatant and a cloud person who needs a female character to act as his hitbox. ZUN has admitted that Touhou has a reputation of using girls in fancy outfits over spaceships and military vehicles like most bullet hells, so he can't add a male character even if he wanted to.

There are many, many characters; So many that I can't even make a list of them. I will, however, point out that Touhou powers are jacked. Reimu's ability to float means that she can float away from reality itself and become invincible, Yuyuko can induce death and kill you instantly, Yukari can manipulate borders, which pretty much means she can manipulate reality, Keine can EAT HISTORY, so on and so forth. I still don't understand how some of these things work.

The Touhou Project's real claim to fame is it's absolutely massive fanbase. Despite it's status as a simple shoot-em-up, the colorful cast of characters, coupled with ZUN's incredibly lax and encouraging attitude towards fanworks, has lead to Touhou becoming a major pillar of the doujin scene, though in the Touhou fandom this term is usually used to refer to Touhou fanworks. The Touhou Project dominates fan conventions, enough that it got a yearly convention all to itself in the form of Reitaisai. While the fandom isn't at the same level as it's peak thanks to the advent of more recent doujin games, the Touhou fandom is still going strong to this day.

The sheer amount of Touhou fanworks is so large that some fans aren't even aware that the fanchise is based around the games. Many fan-made anime adaptdations exist of the series, though ZUN is adamantly against an official adaptation, and multiple fangames have been produced as well, from Touhou versions of other games like Castlevania and Mega Man to original creations; Some are serious, while others are offbeat and based around fandom in-jokes and memes.

And, of course, the music. The soundtrack of Touhou games is held in very high regard, and the amount of remixes the fandom puts out is absolutely ludicrous. To put it into perspective, the average Touhou song has between 60 and 200 remixes, with some songs outright overshadowing the original and getting remixes of their own; For example, Bad Apple!! feat. nomico, or Night of Nights (Which is one of the songs listed in today's mood-setters).

Oh yeah, and this... Whatever the %$#@ this is supposed to be.

Spoiler: Official Songs

Spoiler: Fan Covers

I would have listed even more, but SmashBoards won't let me enter more than 25 pieces of media. As such, I've decided to leave a link to this massive playlist right here for further reading.

Touhou is one of, if not the biggest indie not yet represented in Smash, and arguably the biggest indie game period. Nintendo has been very friendly with indies as of late, and Smash has gradually been adding indie content to Smash: A Commander Video trophy in Smash 4, a Shovel Knight AT in Ultimate, Miis for Sans and Cuphead, and Steve, a former indie, as a fighter. However, we haven't had a full indie fighter yet; Even if Minecraft used to be an indie, it's Microsoft's IP now.

There are three things brought up against Reimu's chances: Lack of Nintendo connection, being Japan exclusive, and heavy usage of fangames. That being said, I feel that it's not quite as one-sided as some may suggest.

First off, Nintendo connections. For one, there's a decent amount of Touhou fangames on the Switch already, so you can type Touhou into the eShop search bar and get some results back already. For another, Nintendo (And Sega too) sold Touhou arrange CDs at Reitaisai, the dedicated Touhou convention. Lastly, ZUN has stated that he's considering porting the fighting game Antimony of Common Flowers to the Switch. At the very least, both parties are seem to be aware that cooperation is a profitable avenue, and are considering the possibility. Perhaps Reimu in Smash could be the final push they need?

On a semi-related note, recently Touhou had a crossover with Hello Kitty, the second-biggest franchise PERIOD. That's huge. In addition, Sanrio stated the reason for the crossover was Touhou's increasing popularity with younger children. If Nintendo needs someone who appeals more to younger audiences, Reimu could work fairly well (Granted, that's probably not a very picky demographic). Regardless, this proves that Touhou is at least big enough to catch the eye of larger companies. Besides, we've already gotten some more distant third-parties with Snake, Cloud, and Joker. Perhaps Reimu will be FP2's "distant" character.

Reimu also got a cameo in Taiko no Tatsujin RPG, which is on the 3DS and the Switch. This is notable because it also contains characters from Ace Attorney, Monster Hunter, Yo-kai Watch, and Nintendo's very own Kirby. Aside from the fact that Reimu is on the same screen as Kirby and Phoenix Wright, it's Reimu, Kirby, and Phoenix Wright on the same screen WHAT ARE THE BAMCO GUYS SMOKING.

Second problem, perceived Japanese exclusivity. That's a bit of a misconception, actually. Aside from the numerous Touhou fangames already on the Switch, some of which are localized, there's also twelve Touhou games on Steam. Granted, only one of them is translated, but that's not out of lack of care; Rather, it's because the fanbase will just create their own translation in a couple days, defeating the need for ZUN to translate the text himself and allowing him to focus his effort elsewhere. I could honestly see Sakurai walking us through a setup of the Touhou Community Reliant Automatic Patcher (THCRAP) in Reimu's presentation. It may seem a bit odd, but hey, we would've said the same about Sakurai plugging the Xbox in a Nintendo livestream.

That being said, Touhou is still very Japan-centric, and the more roundabout ways to get into it may pose a bit of an issue. If Reimu gets in, there would more than likely be a lot of "bruh literally who" moments from the Western fanbase, and she would most definitely be a Japan-appeal rep. If we get a Japan-centric character who isn't Reimu, my optimism would drop significantly.

Something to note is that the worries about region-centric characters comes from the Sakurai interview about Takamaru, and to a lesser extent Ayumi Tachibana being dropped from Melee. While that's true, Touhou is a wee bit bigger than either of those games. Unless, of course, Mysterious Murasame Castle is actually a long-running series with 17 main installments and a convention all to itself. I think Touhou's overwhelming popularity in Japan is enough for it to break through, while Takamaru has just one game, a couple ports where it's just one of the many games included and a handful of references throughout various Nintendo games. Also I sacrificed Takamaru's soul to ensure Reimu's inclusion so he is now super dead sorry guys

Lastly, the fangame issue. Honestly, I think this one's pretty overblown. Sure, Nintendo is super stingy with their IPs and despise fangames... But that's only because it's fangames of their IPs. If it's for any other game, Nintendo won't give a %$#@. Sonic Mania? Minecraft mods? Nintendo doesn't care at all. IF it's not using their IP, they won't come after you. Touhou isn't their IP, so they wouldn't care. That's all that needs to be said, really.

Personal story, I found Touhou through this remixer named RichaadEB, who did an entire album of Touhou metal covers. I just went down the rabbit hole from there.

I even made a Touhou Challenger Pack concept, which you can see here:
https://fantendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate_X_Touhou_Project
Admittedly, it's a bit exaggerated. I might want to go back and touch up some things there, namely Reimu's moveset, but I feel that it's overall a pretty good introduction to the franchise.

I also kinda sorta copied a large portion of the intro for this essay. It's not plagiarism if you own the thing though, right?

Eheheheh...

 

[Goombaic]

This is a confusion of the term casual, because words mean more than one thing.

You have casual gamers who play more chill games that are generally more simple and tend to appeal to people who either play games very little or younger gamers, though this isn't always the case or result of course.

Then you have casual vs Smash fandom, which means that I'm referring to people who don't eat, sleep and breathe Smash since Melee or earlier. There are people who just play Smash occasionally and really don't have character wishes for Smash or have ones that are completely different from what the Smash fandom is asking for. This is why I say Steve and Sephiroth are more casual, or maybe a better term as public audience, picks. Steve didn't have near as much serious traction as a Smash fandom pick up until mid-2019 and even then it's hard to tell how much was serious and how much was trolling considering the nature of the the internet and how crazy people get when it comes to Smash characters.

However, I acknowledge that he had real fan demand, but when you compare that to the likes of characters like Banjo, Geno, Isaac, Sora, Bandanna Dee, Dixie and so many more (a good chunk of which got in the base roster, what with Ridley and K. Rool) have been requested in various volumes of intensity and constantly talked about by the Smash community for over a decade...Steve really doesn't match up with that. Add in that it was clearly put in because it would appeal to the audience of the 'best-selling-game-ever TM' and it's clear the inclusion was part of a negotiation to get Banjo and Microsoft wanted Steve's inclusion because money and public appeal, to which Nintendo would agree.

Sephiroth was something that was talked about a fair share during the Brawl days, what with mods and stuff, but Geno was the only character really drummed up about during that time because not only was he loved but a lot of people swore he was the only possible Square character because he was technically a Mario character. Fast forward eight years or so and Cloud is a thing, but you didn't really see the hype for Sephiroth take off. It was all about Waluigi, K. Rool, Ridley, wanting returning veterans, some Geno and some Isaac and some Ashley in there with a whole bunch of Shovel Knight. Just like no one was talking about Travis Touchdown then, no one was talking about Sephiroth.

Suddenly, here we are, another very popular character to a more public gaming audience and the Smash fandom is left scratching their heads and wondering where the other characters who likely placed high on the Smash Ballot are at. This is what I mean by casual picks, though I suppose I will transition to the phrase 'public picks' because it gets the point across a but better. Joker, Byleth and Terry (to some extent) are also good example of this, and Min Min would be if ARMS had been a little more successful and maintained it's popularity. Other examples of public picks, which are just characters that appeal to people who are religious Smash cultists like us who come onto a forum frequently to discuss who we think is coming and who we want, would be:

• Jonesy from Fortnite
• Impostor from Among Us
• Chosen Undead from Dark Souls, or any main character from a recent Souls-esq game like Sekiro
• Any champion from League of Legends
• Someone from Gears of War who is popular
• A Fall Guy from Fall Guys
• Main character from Ghost of Tsushima
• Ellie from The Last Of Us, as polarizing as that would be
• V from Cyberpunk 2077
• Any named-character from any Call of Duty, the more recent the release the more of a public pick it becomes
• Whoever the main character in Shin Megami Tensei 5 will be
• Arthur Morgan from Red Dead Redemption 2
• Kratos from the new God of War, especially if he gets a design unique to Ragnorok
• Tracer or D.va from Overwatch
• Any character from World of Warcraft
• Any main character from Grand Theft Auto V
• Dovah-Kiin from Skyrim
• Aloy from Horizon
• A character from Hearthstone, if that's even possible
• Heavy, or any other character for that matter, from Team Fortress 2
• Geralt from Witcher
• Any main character from any Assassin's Creed
• A character from Warframe
• A character from Valorant
• A character from Genshin Impact, heaven forbid
• A character from Dragalia Lost
• Any main character from Bravely Default 2

Honestly I could go on but I'm sick of thinking about characters like this getting into Smash. TL;DR: If the Smash fandom isn't seriously talking and considering it, that characters gets in and 95% of the gaming community collectively loses their **** at the announcement but Smash fans are left going 'Literally who asked for this, this isn't anywhere near the top of the list of Smash picks!' then generally speaking it can be considered a public appeal pick. The more the Smash fandom genuinely wants a character, like Crash, Geno, Sora, Rayman, Waluigi or Shantae to where you see the Smash fandom talking about it and them ranking high in polls and there is genuine demand from the Smash community for that character, the farther they move from a public appeal pick and the more they become a Smash fandom pick. This shines even more if they only reason they really 'have a chance' or are talked about is because of the Smash community, like Geno or Waluigi.

At one point Master Chief or Doom guy would have been public picks, but their demand in the Smash fandom has risen to much they are no longer considered as such. The only reason that Steve really fits a public pick when he had so much demand is that Minecraft's public appeal really overshadows the amount of demand he had. EVERYONE (obviously not everyone, but essentially everyone) plays Minecraft, so the portion of the Smash fandom that legitimately wanted him becomes deathly white in comparison.

While I think I get what you mean by casual/public picks, I don't think "public" character and demanded character are mutually exclusive as you say. A number of the characters you listed can be considered both. TF2 characters often have good rankings in fan polls, and Waluigi is not just a meme in the Smash community. Master Chief and Doomguy definitely count as public picks as well. Sometimes, a character's sheer popularity will be why they're popular requests.

 

[SNEKeater]

Geno is more of a Red XIII than those characters. And yes, I would say both Red XIII and Geno are side characters. If you have a different opinion, that's fine.

But a side rose by any other name smells just as sweet. Whether you consider Geno ancillary or a main character is pretty irrelevant compared to the fact that he's from a dead IP that both Nintendo and Square seem to have no interest in reviving. That part is far more important to his lack of fighter status in Smash than any nomenclature about what his role is.

My boy Nanaki can't be just a side character when he's the best character in FFVII. That's it, I said it.

He's able to do **** like this

But he's also able to be part of dumb strategies like this (really, REALLY interested in seeing how they will adapt this in the Remake lol)

 

[cothero]

I know this is kinda random, but that's how powerful as a franchise Resident Evil is:

Best-selling Capcom games

Capcom is a Japanese publisher that is most known for its several world famous best-selling game franchises. They own the highest-grossing fighting series Street Fighter, the best-selling horror series Resident Evil, the hit action RPG franchise Monster Hunter, the popular hack & slash action...

vgsales.fandom.com

It's even above Monster Hunter and Street Fighter.

That spirit event crashed significatively a possibility of a RE rep coming to smash, but hey, it's Sakurai, so who knows?

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I see what appears to be a talk on "Casual" gamer requests and whatnot. Not sure where it came from but I honestly do feel like given how Smash caters to all sorts of gamers, it's very easy to notice a "Casual" and a "Hardcore" character choice for lack of a better term here here and whatnot and why there's usually such division in some character choices.

Characters like Doom Guy, Crash, and Master Chief could possibly count as "Casual" choices. Not to say it's bad and I personally wouldn't object to them in Smash but they're basically household names so when someone who isn't too into gaming will ask who they want in Smash, those will be picked.

And then there's like a few more "Hardcore" choices: Sol Badguy, Monokuma, Reimu, KOS-MOS, etc etc. Characters that the other side may not know their importance or never touched their games beyond a vague understanding but have a very solid fanbase to those who did play their games and have solid history themselves.


It may be poorly worded but I hope some people get some ideas what I am saying here. It basically shows a bit of division and why some people argue over whether some characters are likely or not. It's more or less based off deep exposure into the medium. And one thing I like about Smash so far is that it seems to be trying to keep a nice balance here.

And I honestly hope this balance stays a bit so both sides can have characters they want.

 

[TheCJBrine]

"just a meme pick" is a dumb argument imo, there's a reason why characters get so many memes, and many people genuinely love both the character and the memes or at least would like the character and don't hate them. Like how I and other Undertale fans genuinely love Sans and the others and enjoy the memes people make of them. All popular characters get memes, really them having so many memes just proves they're popular since the unpopular characters hardly get any memes in comparison.

Assuming everyone is a troll who actually hates the character is nonsensical and appears to just be a way for someone to enforce their negative view as somehow being the only good one the majority would surely agree with, flat-out ignoring the character's popularity, the popularity of their game, and the amount of people requesting the character while being very genuine. They also seem to ignore how some of the characters they like also get a load of memes; Mario, for example, but they don't assume people are being ingenuine about him because they like him, despite there still being jokes (but people like to make jokes with characters they like, but let's pretend that's bad I guess). Some characters have trolls too, yeah, but you can find those trolls harassing even that same character's genuine fans. You can also find good positive stuff and your average funny jokes and memes from that character's fanbase instead of just the toxic kind.

Like if you don't get why people like a character you could at least ask a fan why first before assuming "memes = bad/not genuine" or something. Honestly that connection of bad to memes doesn't make any sense imo and I can't take this argument seriously, yet somehow others did when it came to Steve but not with other popular characters for some reason besides Waluigi which the argument was also dumb for. If you just don't like a character then of course that's perfectly fine and normal, but good gosh this argument never made any sense and was so annoying, and there were actual better arguments they could use.

And for Steve, while he and Alex may be generic, they at least show personality in trailers and do have a little bit about them, and people love them anyway due to liking their design, them being the mascots of their favorite game, and also maybe loving whatever interpretation they have of them. Like an old toy of a fantasy person or animal or whatever, of no particular character, that you may have had and loved, as you saw it having its own personality and stuff, making it a cool and good character to you. Maybe you don't care about them and dislike them due to all this, but others are more lax about all the strict "must have" stuff for their favorite characters, so no need to be negative to others and assume "meme = bad" like some did on twitter and in the past on here.

Also, Steve is single according to Mojang in one of their more-recent Ask Mojang videos, so now's your chance to ask my man out, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I know this is kinda random, but that's how powerful as a franchise Resident Evil is:

Best-selling Capcom games

Capcom is a Japanese publisher that is most known for its several world famous best-selling game franchises. They own the highest-grossing fighting series Street Fighter, the best-selling horror series Resident Evil, the hit action RPG franchise Monster Hunter, the popular hack & slash action...

vgsales.fandom.com

It's even above Monster Hunter and Street Fighter.

That spirit event crashed significatively a possibility of a RE rep coming to smash, but hey, it's Sakurai, so who knows?

Look at the number of titles and divide the sales by that.

actually I already did that.

Resident has average sales of 730,496 per game.
Monster Hunter has average sales of 1,306,122 per game

What's important to factor in is that MH has only gone big WW 2 years ago whereas RE had a good 26 years to establish itself WW
Resident evil used to be bigger but now it's MH no questions asked

best selling MH: 16.1 million
best selling RE: 7.7 million counting ports it would be 13.4 million

one day MH will catch up to and surpass Resident Evil in terms of total sales.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Also don't ever bring up lifetime sales if you are trying to prove a series validity

As an Example Game & Watch (43.40 million) is bigger than Kirby (42.09 million), Fire Emblem (16.40 million), Splatoon (16.22 million) and Metroid (18.17 million)

now I'll ask you which is a more powerful franchise, total sales never tell the full story, if you want to use sales as an argument for your character look for the past decade rather than the total.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

It's almost like raw sales numbers aren't the most important factor in deciding who gets into Smash or something.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It's almost like raw sales numbers aren't the most important factor in deciding who gets into Smash or something.

Wow, what a concept!

 

[Will]

It's almost like raw sales numbers aren't the most important factor in deciding who gets into Smash or something.

thanks miles, very cool

its so weird how certain conversations always bring out the big lurkers

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly I think Geno's issue isn't his role exactly or even his obscurity to the general public, but the relative obscurity he has within his franchise.

Let's play a bit of a game here to illustrate my point.

Name your top five favorite Mario characters ever. Not in the context of Smash, but in general. Think in your head for your own answer. Then think about which characters the average casual gamer would choose. Then think about what a more hardcore Mario fan would choose.

Now, let's talk about what those results.

are going to be exceptionally common at all levels. Everyone seems to at least like or know them. (will be counted as Mario as they are the same person outside the context of Smash).

may appear a little less often, but would still be very common choices. Heck, I'd argue that they maybe more common among more hardcore groups.

are a bit of an odd case as a couple of the more popular ones like Roy and Ludwig would probably be common, but they really are a group, so if you have one, you kinda need them all.

and other common mooks probably appear more than expected. Mario spin offs have earned mooks like Koopa and Goomba a lot of fans and have exposed the world to the true greatness of Shy Guy.

For characters who aren't in Smash, characters like Waluigi, Toad and Toadette are most likely very common. Heck the babies are probably common picks. They keep getting chosen and made for a reason.

Now where is Geno in these picks? Honestly... he's probably not in the casual picks, and most likely not in the hardcore Mario fan picks. It's really mostly the Smash community that would rate him among their favorites.

That's not a bad thing in itself, but I think that information can start to put his situation into perspective.

To drive the point home a little more, let's look at a couple of other franchises that have characters who are often compared to Geno.

Let's think about Donkey Kong! are probably among the most common characters picked.

Let's think about Metroid! are probably among the most common characters picked ( and Samus are counted as the same characters outside the context of Smash).


Heck, you can probably make this work for every franchise included in Smash. Within their own franchise, the characters picked, echo or not, are all well known and popular within their franchise. The only franchises where this gets kinda iffy are Pokemon and Fire Emblem but that's less about the characters themselves and more that there are literally hundreds of characters in those franchises. Even still, the characters in Smash would be pretty darn popular and even more divisive choices like Corrin, Byleth and Incineroar do pretty well on polls.

Among Mario characters, is Geno even in the top 10? 20? 50? I genuinely can't answer that, but I'm more inclined to say no. That isn't to say characters can't get into Smash despite that but... Geno's popularity is the one thing that makes him a blip on the radar. So if Geno isn't too popular among Mario characters... just how popular is he really?

Among Smash fans, he's certainly popular, but that popularity doesn't translate to the Mario community as a whole. I think that is what hurts him the most.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

And here's another big writeup. Grab a snack, this might actually surpass the Adolpost.

View attachment 297666
Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei
Reimu hails from the Touhou Project, usually just shortened to Touhou and officially titled Project Shrine Maiden in the West (Though nobody actually calls it that). Touhou is classified as a "doujin soft" game, a Japanese term for video games made by hobbyists for fun rather than profit. The term is basically the Japanese equivalent of an indie, and has a fair amount of overlap; As such, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call Touhou an indie as well.

Touhou started in 1996, with the release of Highly Responsive to Prayers for the PC-98. There, Reimu was portrayed as an inexperienced shrine maiden who had to guide around a bouncing Yin-Yang Orb in what was essentially an Arkanoid clone. The following games began to solidify the standard Touhou formula; A top-down shoot-em-up with intricate and difficult patterns, spread out across six increasingly difficult levels and an extra stage.

Starting with the sixth game, Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, the series moved away from the PC-98 and moved to Windows instead. This also brought about a soft reboot for the series; Only Reimu and her friend Marisa carried over, with radically different designs, the setting was established and developed a much tighter continuity, and various gameplay elements were implemented that would become series mainstays. The following game, Perfect Cherry Blossom, weeded out the more of the PC-98 era's elements and solidified the series in completely.

As of current, the Touhou Project has 17 mainline games, including the PC-98 releases. However, it has a sizable number of spin-off titles as well; These games are indicated by a decimal point in their numbering, based on the mainline titles they were released between-For example, Immaterial and Missing Power is numbered 7.5, and Fairy Wars is the 12.8th. These spin-offs include six fighting games, five unorthodox shooters, and an upcoming side-scrolling action game. In addition, Touhou has a sizeable amount of print works and music albums, expanding it's universe even further. These supplementary materials have good synergy with the games, with just about every game character getting a mention, and a couple characters from the books making appearances in the games.

Touhou takes place in a haunted region known as Gensokyo, sealed off from the Outside World, and housing humans and youkai alike. In Touhou, youkai are sustained by human fear. This becomes problematic when humans stop believing in superstitions and folklore. Gensokyo is a land where forgotten things go, like extinct animals or lost tools, making it a safe haven for weakened youkai. Gensokyo is separated from the Outside World by the Great Hakurei Barrier, which is maintained by the Hakurei Shrine, managed by Reimu herself. Since Gensokyo is depended on the existence of the barrier, Reimu has a very important job on her hands.

In order to perpetuate Genoskyo's existence, the spell card system was put in place. The spell card system acts as an equalizer, so that humans may defend themselves and youkai may sustain themselves, without bloodshed from either party. In gameplay, this serves to justify the existence of the danmaku patterns, right down to the names. The ease of battle, coupled with the lack of injury, has also led to the inhabitants of Gensokyo fighting at the drop of a hat for varying reasons, often times just because.

The main crux of the game's plots revolve around Incidents; Various abnormal events. These Incidents vary in severity, from something as life-threatening as an eternal winter to SUDDENLY, FLYING BOAT. Reimu, Marisa, and whoever else they may have brought along then set out to resolve these Incidents by beating up everyone in their path until they get to the culprit. Due to the aforementioned spell card system, the culprit usually caused the Incident just because they were bored, and are let off the hook just as easily. There are some exceptions, but the amount of instigators who weren't forgiven can be counted on one hand.

An interesting thing to note is Touhou's staggeringly-large cast of characters, with the majority having a minor role and a very vague personality. This leads to many different interpretations, as well as minor characters suddenly becoming extremely popular. It should also be noted that at least 95% of the entire cast is female, with the only recurring males being a non-combatant and a cloud person who needs a female character to act as his hitbox. ZUN has admitted that Touhou has a reputation of using girls in fancy outfits over spaceships and military vehicles like most bullet hells, so he can't add a male character even if he wanted to.

There are many, many characters; So many that I can't even make a list of them. I will, however, point out that Touhou powers are jacked. Reimu's ability to float means that she can float away from reality itself and become invincible, Yuyuko can induce death and kill you instantly, Yukari can manipulate borders, which pretty much means she can manipulate reality, Keine can EAT HISTORY, so on and so forth. I still don't understand how some of these things work.

The Touhou Project's real claim to fame is it's absolutely massive fanbase. Despite it's status as a simple shoot-em-up, the colorful cast of characters, coupled with ZUN's incredibly lax and encouraging attitude towards fanworks, has lead to Touhou becoming a major pillar of the doujin scene, though in the Touhou fandom this term is usually used to refer to Touhou fanworks. The Touhou Project dominates fan conventions, enough that it got a yearly convention all to itself in the form of Reitaisai. While the fandom isn't at the same level as it's peak thanks to the advent of more recent doujin games, the Touhou fandom is still going strong to this day.

The sheer amount of Touhou fanworks is so large that some fans aren't even aware that the fanchise is based around the games. Many fan-made anime adaptdations exist of the series, though ZUN is adamantly against an official adaptation, and multiple fangames have been produced as well, from Touhou versions of other games like Castlevania and Mega Man to original creations; Some are serious, while others are offbeat and based around fandom in-jokes and memes.

And, of course, the music. The soundtrack of Touhou games is held in very high regard, and the amount of remixes the fandom puts out is absolutely ludicrous. To put it into perspective, the average Touhou song has between 60 and 200 remixes, with some songs outright overshadowing the original and getting remixes of their own; For example, Bad Apple!! feat. nomico, or Night of Nights (Which is one of the songs listed in today's mood-setters).

Oh yeah, and this... Whatever the %$#@ this is supposed to be.

Spoiler: Official Songs

Spoiler: Fan Covers

I would have listed even more, but SmashBoards won't let me enter more than 25 pieces of media. As such, I've decided to leave a link to this massive playlist right here for further reading.

Touhou is one of, if not the biggest indie not yet represented in Smash, and arguably the biggest indie game period. Nintendo has been very friendly with indies as of late, and Smash has gradually been adding indie content to Smash: A Commander Video trophy in Smash 4, a Shovel Knight AT in Ultimate, Miis for Sans and Cuphead, and Steve, a former indie, as a fighter. However, we haven't had a full indie fighter yet; Even if Minecraft used to be an indie, it's Microsoft's IP now.

There are three things brought up against Reimu's chances: Lack of Nintendo connection, being Japan exclusive, and heavy usage of fangames. That being said, I feel that it's not quite as one-sided as some may suggest.

First off, Nintendo connections. For one, there's a decent amount of Touhou fangames on the Switch already, so you can type Touhou into the eShop search bar and get some results back already. For another, Nintendo (And Sega too) sold Touhou arrange CDs at Reitaisai, the dedicated Touhou convention. Lastly, ZUN has stated that he's considering porting the fighting game Antimony of Common Flowers to the Switch. At the very least, both parties are seem to be aware that cooperation is a profitable avenue, and are considering the possibility. Perhaps Reimu in Smash could be the final push they need?

On a semi-related note, recently Touhou had a crossover with Hello Kitty, the second-biggest franchise PERIOD. That's huge. In addition, Sanrio stated the reason for the crossover was Touhou's increasing popularity with younger children. If Nintendo needs someone who appeals more to younger audiences, Reimu could work fairly well (Granted, that's probably not a very picky demographic). Regardless, this proves that Touhou is at least big enough to catch the eye of larger companies. Besides, we've already gotten some more distant third-parties with Snake, Cloud, and Joker. Perhaps Reimu will be FP2's "distant" character.

Reimu also got a cameo in Taiko no Tatsujin RPG, which is on the 3DS and the Switch. This is notable because it also contains characters from Ace Attorney, Monster Hunter, Yo-kai Watch, and Nintendo's very own Kirby. Aside from the fact that Reimu is on the same screen as Kirby and Phoenix Wright, it's Reimu, Kirby, and Phoenix Wright on the same screen WHAT ARE THE BAMCO GUYS SMOKING.

Second problem, perceived Japanese exclusivity. That's a bit of a misconception, actually. Aside from the numerous Touhou fangames already on the Switch, some of which are localized, there's also twelve Touhou games on Steam. Granted, only one of them is translated, but that's not out of lack of care; Rather, it's because the fanbase will just create their own translation in a couple days, defeating the need for ZUN to translate the text himself and allowing him to focus his effort elsewhere. I could honestly see Sakurai walking us through a setup of the Touhou Community Reliant Automatic Patcher (THCRAP) in Reimu's presentation. It may seem a bit odd, but hey, we would've said the same about Sakurai plugging the Xbox in a Nintendo livestream.

That being said, Touhou is still very Japan-centric, and the more roundabout ways to get into it may pose a bit of an issue. If Reimu gets in, there would more than likely be a lot of "bruh literally who" moments from the Western fanbase, and she would most definitely be a Japan-appeal rep. If we get a Japan-centric character who isn't Reimu, my optimism would drop significantly.

Something to note is that the worries about region-centric characters comes from the Sakurai interview about Takamaru, and to a lesser extent Ayumi Tachibana being dropped from Melee. While that's true, Touhou is a wee bit bigger than either of those games. Unless, of course, Mysterious Murasame Castle is actually a long-running series with 17 main installments and a convention all to itself. I think Touhou's overwhelming popularity in Japan is enough for it to break through, while Takamaru has just one game, a couple ports where it's just one of the many games included and a handful of references throughout various Nintendo games. Also I sacrificed Takamaru's soul to ensure Reimu's inclusion so he is now super dead sorry guys

Lastly, the fangame issue. Honestly, I think this one's pretty overblown. Sure, Nintendo is super stingy with their IPs and despise fangames... But that's only because it's fangames of their IPs. If it's for any other game, Nintendo won't give a %$#@. Sonic Mania? Minecraft mods? Nintendo doesn't care at all. IF it's not using their IP, they won't come after you. Touhou isn't their IP, so they wouldn't care. That's all that needs to be said, really.

Personal story, I found Touhou through this remixer named RichaadEB, who did an entire album of Touhou metal covers. I just went down the rabbit hole from there.

I even made a Touhou Challenger Pack concept, which you can see here:
https://fantendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate_X_Touhou_Project
Admittedly, it's a bit exaggerated. I might want to go back and touch up some things there, namely Reimu's moveset, but I feel that it's overall a pretty good introduction to the franchise.

I also kinda sorta copied a large portion of the intro for this essay. It's not plagiarism if you own the thing though, right?

Eheheheh...

Great writeup. Glad to see there's still love for long-form speculation pieces like this and I absolutely love that you covered an often underrated player in speculation. While I have no attachment to Touhou, I'd love to see Reimu in Smash (or Fraymakers) just to see how she'd play and how her series would crossover with others.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So it seems that the TLDR for Geno is:

• They know we want him.
• They know that only we want him.
• Nintendo themselves likely does not want him.
• He's a 3rd party character from a 1st party franchise.
• He no in.

EDIT: I'm tempted to say that he'll never be in but...I dunno if I'll go that far. Stranger things have probably happened.

 

[7NATOR]

So it seems that the TLDR for Geno is:

• They know we want him.
• They know that only we want him.
• Nintendo themselves likely does not want him.
• He's a 3rd party character from a 1st party franchise.
• He no in.

EDIT: I'm tempted to say that he'll never be in but...I dunno if I'll go that far. Stranger things have probably happened.

This is pretty much the case.

I will say that I still think he's possible for Smash, but he'll probably have to get in the base roster of next game, as I don't see him being a DLC Character because He'll probably just keep getting out-priotized. There's not as risk putting Geno in Base roster as with DLC

I also think it would help if Nintendo/Square re-release SMRPG on the Switch in some form

Great writeup. Glad to see there's still love for long-form speculation pieces like this and I absolutely love that you covered an often underrated player in speculation. While I have no attachment to Touhou, I'd love to see Reimu in Smash (or Fraymakers) just to see how she'd play and how her series would crossover with others.

Sharklord Writes some great pieces, and this Reimu one is no exception

With that being said, I'm not sure if Reimu is underated anymore. Perhaps on Youtube Speculation yes, but Reimu nowadays kind gets mentioned quite a bit. If this was written during Base Roster or Fighter Pass 1, I would agree with that statement.

But She's blown up considerably in Speculation. Like the fact she was Near the top 10 in the Sourcegaming poll should tell you she's gotten much more popular regarding Smash

A underrated Character I would say is Gordon Freeman, which you did a write up for, Someone from a Franchise from Cygames like Granblue or Dragalia Lost (you mentioned Granblue), or Shadow the Hedgehog which I did a Write up for and is in my Sig, but it did get lost in the sea.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I believe Geno has a decent amount of people who like him even if they’re not hardcore Smash fans, but yeah his situation isn’t really the best when including the entirety of the Mario community, as you’re more likely to see stuff with the partners from Paper Mario and characters from M&L, though there is still a good amount of fan art and stuff of the SMRPG gang. Smash and Rawest Forest I’m sure helped spread popularity.

But with the Mario community as a whole, yeah, most Mario fans probably won’t know who he is until Smash, and while I believe a lot would like him, that doesn’t mean they’ll play his game or have him in their top 5 or 10 Smash picks if they care about that.

I think he could still get in, though, just not this game. I understand why Nintendo and co. would look elsewhere, however, but maybe someday they’ll throw us a frog coin.

 

[Eldrake]

So it seems that the TLDR for Geno is:

• They know we want him.
• They know that only we want him.
• Nintendo themselves likely does not want him.
• He's a 3rd party character from a 1st party franchise.
• He no in.

EDIT: I'm tempted to say that he'll never be in but...I dunno if I'll go that far. Stranger things have probably happened.

Even if Nintendo was cool with Geno as a pick, would Nintendo still want him more than other Square-Enix characters? Would they want him more than for example Lara Croft, Crono or a Final Fantasy character? That's one of the things I think hurts his chances more than anything else.

 

[ZelDan]

Honestly I think Geno's issue isn't his role exactly or even his obscurity to the general public, but the relative obscurity he has within his franchise.

Let's play a bit of a game here to illustrate my point.

Name your top five favorite Mario characters ever. Not in the context of Smash, but in general. Think in your head for your own answer. Then think about which characters the average casual gamer would choose. Then think about what a more hardcore Mario fan would choose.

Now, let's talk about what those results.

are going to be exceptionally common at all levels. Everyone seems to at least like or know them. (will be counted as Mario as they are the same person outside the context of Smash).

may appear a little less often, but would still be very common choices. Heck, I'd argue that they maybe more common among more hardcore groups.

are a bit of an odd case as a couple of the more popular ones like Roy and Ludwig would probably be common, but they really are a group, so if you have one, you kinda need them all.

and other common mooks probably appear more than expected. Mario spin offs have earned mooks like Koopa and Goomba a lot of fans and have exposed the world to the true greatness of Shy Guy.

For characters who aren't in Smash, characters like Waluigi, Toad and Toadette are most likely very common. Heck the babies are probably common picks. They keep getting chosen and made for a reason.

Now where is Geno in these picks? Honestly... he's probably not in the casual picks, and most likely not in the hardcore Mario fan picks. It's really mostly the Smash community that would rate him among their favorites.

That's not a bad thing in itself, but I think that information can start to put his situation into perspective.

To drive the point home a little more, let's look at a couple of other franchises that have characters who are often compared to Geno.

Let's think about Donkey Kong! are probably among the most common characters picked.

Let's think about Metroid! are probably among the most common characters picked ( and Samus are counted as the same characters outside the context of Smash).


Heck, you can probably make this work for every franchise included in Smash. Within their own franchise, the characters picked, echo or not, are all well known and popular within their franchise. The only franchises where this gets kinda iffy are Pokemon and Fire Emblem but that's less about the characters themselves and more that there are literally hundreds of characters in those franchises. Even still, the characters in Smash would be pretty darn popular and even more divisive choices like Corrin, Byleth and Incineroar do pretty well on polls.

Among Mario characters, is Geno even in the top 10? 20? 50? I genuinely can't answer that, but I'm more inclined to say no. That isn't to say characters can't get into Smash despite that but... Geno's popularity is the one thing that makes him a blip on the radar. So if Geno isn't too popular among Mario characters... just how popular is he really?

Among Smash fans, he's certainly popular, but that popularity doesn't translate to the Mario community as a whole. I think that is what hurts him the most.

Yup.

It's important to remember that Geno doesn't just have to worry about the Mario side of things. being owned by SE, He would also have to be compared to other SE properties, which is...yikes...

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Some of ya'll really don't understand what ''side characters" are. You know what? Screw that. Let's just throw that term out right now.

A side character is a poor choice of word anyways. A more APPROPRIATE term would be SUPPORTING character.

A supporting character is anyone who is not the lead of the story but is substantially important enough in the journey that they direct the course of the plot as much as the lead. They often as they are called ''support" the lead on the journey and towards the ultimate goal the story is trying to craft.

A protagonist is NOTHING without his or her supporting characters. A narrative can not move forward without them. A protagonist's direction, goals, and personality and so much more can be shaped by the characters that the author of said story has placed around them.

This is why you see what you would call ''breakout" characters in media. These are often characters that are not the lead of the show but they broke out because they played such an integral or interesting part in the narrative that people love them just as much. ( A certain wooden doll that started this whole convo comes to mind here.)

Tons of characters across all forms of media have probably started out as what would be a supporting character, before becoming a lead in their own narrative, etc, etc.

So uh yeah ya'll should probably stop throwing ''supporting" or ''side" character around like it's a bad thing. They are just as important as the leads and ultimately the leads of your favorite media would be pretty damn boring if they didn't have them around.

 

[Will]

I'm pretty sure Geno will get in eventually, just not this time. But most Geno OGs gonna be in their 40s by that time, which is kinda sad to think about.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Some of ya'll really don't understand what ''side characters" are. You know what? Screw that. Let's just throw that term out right now.

A side character is a poor choice of word anyways. A more APPROPRIATE term would be SUPPORTING character.

A supporting character is anyone who is not the lead of the story but is substantially important enough in the journey that they direct the course of the plot as much as the lead. They often as they are called ''support" the lead on the journey and towards the ultimate goal the story is trying to craft.

A protagonist is NOTHING without his or her supporting characters. A narrative can not move forward without them. A protagonist's direction, goals, and personality and so much more can be shaped by the characters that the author of said story has placed around them.

This is why you see what you would call ''breakout" characters in media. These are often characters that are not the lead of the show but they broke out because they played such an integral or interesting part in the narrative that people love them just as much. ( A certain wooden doll that started this whole convo comes to mind here.)

Tons of characters across all forms of media have probably started out as what would be a supporting character, before becoming a lead in their own narrative, etc, etc.

So uh yeah ya'll should probably stop throwing ''supporting" or ''side" character around like it's a bad thing. They are just as important as the leads and ultimately the leads of your favorite media would be pretty damn boring if they didn't have them around.

Half the roster are supporting characters.

Heck every Pokemon character barring the trainer is a supporting character.

 

[SneakyLink]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Star themed tourney it looks like.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Star themed tourney it looks like.

That picture is really wholesome actually.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Personally I think the plight of Geno is best explained in the negotiations leak. The only significant demand for Geno is for him to get into Smash Bros., with requests for a Super Mario RPG or for Geno to appear in other Mario titles often being in the context of Geno getting into Smash. While Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo also had somewhat similar conditions behind their requests/fanbases, they also had running appearances and wider demand besides just Smash Bros in their favor.

I wouldn't be surprised if Square turned down Geno because of his lack of wider marketability and not wanting him to be Smash-specific character that will languish otherwise.

 

[Idon]

Half the roster are supporting characters.

Heck every Pokemon character barring the trainer is a supporting character.

I would argue Pokemon Trainer are moreso 3 supporting characters in a trench coat.

 

[7NATOR]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Star themed tourney it looks like.

So I got to wonder why that Spirit event was skipped in the website data. I would think we would have had the answer to that question today

Also I think this kills Geno even further than he already was

 

[SKX31]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Star themed tourney it looks like.

Is it time?

It's time.

 

[Will]

So I got to wonder why that Spirit event was skipped in the website data. I would think we would have had the answer to that question today

Also I think this kills Geno even further than he already was

Nah nah nah, man, it's just like the Sephiroth challenge, you beat the tourney to get Geno's costume

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Half the roster are supporting characters.

Heck every Pokemon character barring the trainer is a supporting character.

I'd say a MAJORITY of the roster really. You can argue on some of them being leads in their own right, but a majority of them are there to boost the lead considering the franchise they are repping.

A lot of those leads being avatar characters or ones with mostly mute personalities, etc, etc.

Even the villains are not leads. They are supporting characters. They are the threat that drives their hero towards his or her goal.

 

[GillyGrime]

Out of legit interest why are so many people so anti Fortnite in Smash?

I know it's a trendy game predominantly popular with younger gamers but Pokemon was literally that back in the 90s, "it's just a fad". Fortnite is indeniably big and influential.

I ask this as someone who's played Fortnite a grand total of once for maybe half an hour. Not bothered either way tbh.