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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

cashregister9

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Byleth was the perfect combination of things designed to specifically piss off the vocal smash fanbase, Fire Emblem, Not a Third Party, Sword Wielder. Tracer is the only one even close to potentially reaching that because Activision hate is popular, Jonesy wouldn't because vocal Fortnite hate has become sort of silent recently.

This topic is just kinda circlejerky and negative, I dislike it. (That is just the cycle of smash speculation though, so.)
 
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Rie Sonomura

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And yet most people, even those who actually play League of Legends, probably don't want Tencent anywhere near Smash Bros. Fortnite is "annoying" but largely inoffensive from a business perspective. People treat Tencent like the scum of the gaming industry and there's no way a crossover involving them would blow over so easily. This hatred is driven more by morality than petty boomer-ism. I mean, people dislike Epic Games too but the worst of that has always felt a little more driven by loyalty to Valve / Steam.

I mean hell, I think people would have assumed Steve to be more controversial than he actually was for similar reasons to what you've described. And I do think Minecraft and Fortnite are super different situations but the point is more that this hating of modern trends / what the kids like is driven by a less serious and often not-as-big-as-you-think group of people. Not to say Jonesy wouldn't be controversial, especially as one of the last characters in Ultimate ever, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say here.
But uh

technically speaking

doesnt Tencent own Epic too?
 

N3ON

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Real talk, in an alternate scenario where Robin was the latest FE newcomer by Ultimate and Lyn was the last FP1 character, she would absolutely get a lot of hype instead of tons of hate because she’d be the 5th FE character in this case.
Totally agreed. There's the narrative that people have always hated FE, but anyone who was around back before the events of Smash 4 knows that's not even a little true. If the series was seen as punching under its weight like Metroid and DK were, and Kirby and Zelda are, people would be just as happy to get a popular newcomer for it than they are/would be for any of those series.

Lyn would also have more popularity if her series wasn't so abundantly represented.
 

Louie G.

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But uh

technically speaking

doesnt Tencent own Epic too?
LOL well you learn something new everyday, I feel silly now.

Granted Tencent doesn't own Epic but that 40% stock in Epic is pretty significant - meanwhile though Tencent owns Riot 100% so it's a bit more notorious. But good catch, Tencent is at least substantially involved with Epic Games. Not that I personally have any stake in picking and choosing which corporations I find moral and which I do not, because most of them are pretty bad.
 
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SharkLord

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I'd also add that even with those reactions being largely semi dedicated/dedicated Smash fans (the ones who are more likely to be against more FE characters), Byleth managed to get 120+ likes, more than most other DLC characters.

like, yeah, 80k is alot of dislikes comapred to other characters, but it's pretty BS how people seem to just sweep those likes under the rug...
Yup, that too. I think it's safe to say there are some people who will just be satisfied because it's Smash, regardless of who it is. Even with someone like Jonesy or Tracer or... Whoever would be added from LoL... There would still be people who are happy regardless, just because it's a new character and they'll enjoy just about anyone. I don't think we'll every get someone where the detractors are the majority; At worst, the farthest they can go is just being divisive.
 

jadetheseer

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Is it because he has never been in a mainline Mario game, something like that?
Nah I don’t even care about that. I just hate how much of a meme character he is. It’d be the same as if they did something like putting Shrek and Among Us in Smash but it’s actually possible. All the people who Would play him online would only be trolling and it’d just be a huge circlejerk. It’s impossible me for me to associate him as his own entity apart from memes. It would nearly ruin the game for me. This may sound dramatic but y’all know the online Smash community and the “meme community”...it’d be terrible. He’s not a funny character or anything, he’s just annoying and I hate him and I hate the huge circlejerk around him and people wanting for him to be in Smash when they don’t even care about him, he’s just the funny meme character. But he hasn’t even been funny as a meme for years and he has nothing else going for him when there’s literally hundreds of better choices than him.

who knows though maybe I’d change my mind if he‘a playable in a future game but please god don’t be a DLC character. probably won’t happen though
 

Rie Sonomura

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LOL well you learn something new everyday, I feel silly now.

Granted Tencent doesn't own Epic but that 40% stock in Epic is pretty significant - meanwhile though Tencent owns Riot 100% so it's a bit more notorious. But good catch, Tencent is at least substantially involved with Epic Games.
Epic Games themselves has a lot of criticism too - like their launcher and shop feature not having a cart and temp banning people if they make too many purchases in a row
 

SonicSmasher1

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Nah I don’t even care about that. I just hate how much of a meme character he is. It’d be the same as if they did something like putting Shrek and Among Us in Smash but it’s actually possible. All the people who Would play him online would only be trolling and it’d just be a huge circlejerk. It’s impossible me for me to associate him as his own entity apart from memes. It would nearly ruin the game for me. This may sound dramatic but y’all know the online Smash community and the “meme community”...it’d be terrible. He’s not a funny character or anything, he’s just annoying and I hate him and I hate the huge circlejerk around him and people wanting for him to be in Smash when they don’t even care about him, he’s just the funny meme character. But he hasn’t even been funny as a meme for years and he has nothing else going for him when there’s literally hundreds of better choices than him.

who knows though maybe I’d change my mind if he‘a playable in a future game but please god don’t be a DLC character. probably won’t happen though
Understandable. I wouldn't mind Waluigi, but he is just becoming too popular by memes. Overrated too. I think the fans do give him too much credit as a possible future Smash character. If anything, he should not get in just because he is a popular meme character. And many more people used to hate him back in the Brawl days, too.
 

True Blue Warrior

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Byleth was the perfect combination of things designed to specifically piss off the smash fanbase, Fire Emblem, Not a Third Party, Sword Wielder.
Would people let go of the ridiculous idea that people who find first-party DLC to be underwhelming are anything more than a tiny, tiny, tiny vocal minority? This whole narrative that “Smash fans don’t care for first-party characters” is the dumbest one currently paraded around without being questioned. Almost nobody cared about Byleth not being a third-party character.
 

N3ON

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Nah I don’t even care about that. I just hate how much of a meme character he is. It’d be the same as if they did something like putting Shrek and Among Us in Smash but it’s actually possible. All the people who Would play him online would only be trolling and it’d just be a huge circlejerk. It’s impossible me for me to associate him as his own entity apart from memes. It would nearly ruin the game for me. This may sound dramatic but y’all know the online Smash community and the “meme community”...it’d be terrible. He’s not a funny character or anything, he’s just annoying and I hate him and I hate the huge circlejerk around him and people wanting for him to be in Smash when they don’t even care about him, he’s just the funny meme character. But he hasn’t even been funny as a meme for years and he has nothing else going for him when there’s literally hundreds of better choices than him.

who knows though maybe I’d change my mind if he‘a playable in a future game but please god don’t be a DLC character. probably won’t happen though
This is a surprisingly 2013 take
 

3BitSaurus

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And yet most people, even those who actually play League of Legends, probably don't want Tencent anywhere near Smash Bros. Fortnite is "annoying" but largely inoffensive from a business perspective. People treat Tencent like the scum of the gaming industry and there's no way a crossover involving them would blow over so easily. This hatred is driven more by morality than petty boomer-ism. I mean, people dislike Epic Games too but the worst of that has always felt a little more driven by loyalty to Valve / Steam.

I mean hell, I think people would have assumed Steve to be more controversial than he actually was for similar reasons to what you've described. And I do think Minecraft and Fortnite are super different situations but the point is more that this hating of modern trends / what the kids like is driven by a less serious and often not-as-big-as-you-think group of people. Not to say Jonesy wouldn't be controversial, especially as one of the last characters in Ultimate ever, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say here.
But uh

technically speaking

doesnt Tencent own Epic too?
As Ivander and others said, it's around 40%.

Regardless, there's two things to consider: first, if we start taking out companies based on how they behave... there's no one left, lol.

Secondly, is there anything that Tencent doesn't have a hand on these days? In fact, Nintendo has directly partnered with them to bring the Switch to China, and is even making games with them, like Pokémon Unite. I don't think people would be that mad about the fact that it's Tencent in Smash anymore than people did about these other deals.
 

SharkLord

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As Ivander and others said, it's around 40%.

Regardless, there's two things to consider: first, if we start taking out companies based on how they behave... there's no one left, lol.

Secondly, is there anything that Tencent doesn't have a hand on these days? In fact, Nintendo has directly partnered with them to bring the Switch to China, and is even making games with them, like Pokémon Unite. I don't think people would be that mad about the fact that it's Tencent in Smash anymore than people did about these other deals.
To be fair, I'm not sure how may people know that Tencent has a hand in the Chinese Switch distribution.

On the other hand, there's also probably a large portion of people who don't know Tencent owns Riot, or about Tencent in general, so...
 

cashregister9

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Would people let go of the ridiculous idea that people who find first-party DLC to be underwhelming are anything more than a tiny, tiny, tiny vocal minority? This whole narrative that “Smash fans don’t care for first-party characters” is the dumbest one currently paraded around without being questioned. Almost nobody cared about Byleth not being a third-party character.
I like Byleth for the record.

I was never referring to everyone, I was referring to the vocal majority, and especially around the time of Byleth's reveal where he came after 4 Third Parties and Dante was hyped up for a dumb reason.
 

Louie G.

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As far as Byleth goes I think there's nuance on both ends. Yes, those 80k dislikes are not necessarily reflective of the wider audience that may not be quite as directly involved, but even my friends who are casual fans have acknowledged and are quite critical toward the handling of Fire Emblem on the roster.

Also I mean, it's 80k dislikes. Even taking into account the 100k+ likes (which were likely provided in part by people who felt the need to counteract that negativity, and may not have left a reaction otherwise), this is significantly more backlash than any other character we've ever seen.

It's funny, the people within the community are usually typecast as the picky ones but our sphere of knowledge is much greater than a lot of casual fans - like, one of my friends has been pretty unhappy with the DLC picks at large (although he finds most of them fun to use) while most people within the core communities only take issue with one or two.

I think for as many people who are happy to have any character join the roster there's another casual fan who's going to be like "who the **** is this" and be disappointed that it's yet another character from a series they don't care about rather than like, a Sonic character or something. So I feel it's a bit wrong to generalize the greater playerbase as so sweet and accepting.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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Oh, yeah, I shared these like a week or so ago on the main social thread, thought it'd be better to share here.

View attachment 312995
View attachment 312996
Cool.

I'd also add that even with those reactions being largely semi dedicated/dedicated Smash fans (the ones who are more likely to be against more FE characters), Byleth managed to get 120+ likes, more than most other DLC characters.

like, yeah, 80k is alot of dislikes comapred to other characters, but it's pretty BS how people seem to just sweep those likes under the rug...
Probably because the dislike/like ratio is far worse than those found in other presentations, which typically tend to be around 95% likes and around 3-8k dislikes at most, IIRC.
 
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Gorgonzales

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Would people let go of the ridiculous idea that people who find first-party DLC to be underwhelming are anything more than a tiny, tiny, tiny vocal minority? This whole narrative that “Smash fans don’t care for first-party characters” is the dumbest one currently paraded around without being questioned. Almost nobody cared about Byleth not being a third-party character.
but Byleth came after four other 3rd party characters. Why wouldn't they end the pass on a 3rd party?

EDIT: I get that there are many reasons actually but you get what i mean lol
 
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Rie Sonomura

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I think Byleth’s dislike ratio woulda been worse were it not for the announcement of more characters to soften the blow

and unless that happens for CP10 or 11 (which isn’t looking good at this point) then I pity whomevers last

how many dislikes did 4’s final presentation have?
 

SharkLord

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I think Byleth’s dislike ratio woulda been worse were it not for the announcement of more characters to soften the blow

and unless that happens for CP10 or 11 (which isn’t looking good at this point) then I pity whomevers last

how many dislikes did 4’s final presentation have?
1620162955486.png

Surprisingly little, on both ends of the spectrum. At least, it's a lot less than compared to SSBU's reactions.
 

Technomage

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I think one of the reasons Smash 4's Final DLC Presentation didn't get much hate despite many people (including me at the time) not liking Corrin that much is because Bayo softened the blow (especially since it was before people learned how cheap she is).

Edit: Whoops, I got :ultgreninja:'d.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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but Byleth came after four other 3rd party characters. Why wouldn't they end the pass on a 3rd party?

EDIT: I get that there are many reasons actually but you get what i mean lol
My point is that people would not have cared about being wrong about their predictions if the “curveball” was something a lot of people wanted instead of the 8th Fire Emblem character. If Byleth was something like Isaac or Skull Kid, there would have been mass rejoicing. Sure some would complain about them, but no more so than any other FP1 character.
 

N3ON

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I like Waluigi because he's a total ****head. I used to not care about him so much, but he's grown on me. Plus I have some friends who would be quite happy to see him included. Total ****heads, mostly. Funny how that works.

If he only showed up once or twice it'd be a different story but he's been in more games than basically every other candidate people mention. And yeah, they're spin-offs, but so what? Not like Smash is canon to anything, and we already have all the main Mario cast other than Toad.

I do understand. Waluigi support used to be almost entirely ironic. But it hasn't been that way for a long time. Now the ironic to sincere ratios have basically inverted. And he's an inessential character to his series. But Smash is well past the point of what's "essential".

I can see the parallels in that Sonic has a ton of ****ty friends who largely appear in spin-offs as well, many of whom I wouldn't really want in Smash. But in a Sega Smash game nearing triple digits, sure, put em in. They're notable Sonic characters after all.

One of the things not to underestimate about Waluigi demand is it extends so much further than the normal bounds of our little internet hovels, wherein average Smashers go "they should add Waluigi". He makes much bigger waves within the casual component than most of the alternatives we raise.


^see? Positivity. It is possible. I'm basically a rainbow on ketamine. :teeth:
 

Technomage

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I like Waluigi because he's a total ****head. I used to not care about him so much, but he's grown on me. Plus I have some friends who would be quite happy to see him included. Total ****heads, mostly. Funny how that works.

If he only showed up once or twice it'd be a different story but he's been in more games than basically every other candidate people mention. And yeah, they're spin-offs, but so what? Not like Smash is canon to anything, and we already have all the main Mario cast other than Toad.

I do understand. Waluigi support used to be almost entirely ironic. But it hasn't been that way for a long time. Now the ironic to sincere ratios have basically inverted. And he's an inessential character to his series. But Smash is well past the point of what's "essential".

I can see the parallels in that Sonic has a ton of ****ty friends who largely appear in spin-offs as well, many of whom I wouldn't really want in Smash. But in a Sega Smash game nearing triple digits, sure, put em in. They're notable Sonic characters after all.

One of the things not to underestimate about Waluigi demand is it extends so much further than the normal bounds of our little internet hovels, wherein average Smashers go "they should add Waluigi". He makes much bigger waves within the casual component than most of the alternatives we raise.


^see? Positivity. It is possible. I'm basically a rainbow on ketamine. :teeth:
Yeah, Waluigi has grown on me too, to the point that I made a Waluigi Sim as one of my Mario Bros. Sims in The Sims 4.
 

True Blue Warrior

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If he only showed up once or twice it'd be a different story but he's been in more games than basically every other candidate people mention. And yeah, they're spin-offs, but so what? Not like Smash is canon to anything, and we already have all the main Mario cast other than Toad.
Poor Toad, seemingly destined to never be playable in Smash.
 

Gorgonzales

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I've always liked Waluigi, even as far back as when I was a young lad playing Mario Party 8. He's just a funny purple dude. I don't like him because of memes or anything (I actually find them kind of annoying), I just legitimately like his character and personality.
 
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