Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[chocolatejr9]

No echo or clone should be from a different franchise than the one they're copying.

Ganondorf is currently the only one in Smash and that desperately needs to change.

Exactly.

Implying there's any way to make headway in Smash speculation...

You can tap your sign all day. Iconicness isn't any less valid than any of the other parameters people discuss, and we're not going to stop talking about it just cause you don't like it.

You may be right, but we CAN also talk about characters getting in for reasons other than iconicness...

 

[N3ON]

Yeah... but 400k (Banjo) isn't that much higher than 110k (Halo 3). I doubt Nintendo takes calculation that far. Banjo Tooie sold even less at 200k so even smaller gap, let alone Nuts and Bolts.

Well, it's almost four times higher. And especially in Japan, yeah, a 300k divide is prevalent. 400k in Japan is hardly selling poorly. I mean, this isn't the North American market here. That puts it above every Xenoblade game and most FE games in terms of Japanese sales.

Also, tangentially, 110k is pretty good in Japan for a FPS on the Xbox.

 

[Lionfranky]

Well, it's almost four times higher. And especially in Japan, yeah, a 300k divide is prevalent. 400k in Japan is hardly selling poorly. I mean, this isn't the North American market here. That puts it above every Xenoblade game and most FE games in terms of Japanese sales.

Also, tangentially, 110k is pretty good in Japan for a FPS on the Xbox.

I understand what you've said with Halo being exception. But, my point is that people still bring up Japan factor. It sounds like U.S electoral college system or gerrymandering.

 

[Idon]

Sakurai obviously cares about not spoiling RPGs

Looks at Xenoblade Chronicles, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Final Fantasy 7, Dragon Quest XI and Fire Emblem Three Houses.

Are we sure he does?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Looks at Xenoblade Chronicles, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Final Fantasy 7, Dragon Quest XI and Fire Emblem Three Houses.

Are we sure he does?

C'mon, don't you know Mecha-Fiora and Pneuma are just OCs Monolith Soft allowed Sakurai to add?

 

[MrMcNuts]

I have no idea. I'm not familiar with Granblue, nor am I that interested in the series either. She has Water and Ice abilities though, and apparently she got a stand in Granblue Fantasy

I also wasn't being specific towards one character. I left it open to Granblue, Dragalia Lost, any other Cygames I.P in general



I wouldn't be surprised if Touhou was being overrated in popularity. Being popular in Japan I can see, but it may not be the phenomenon that people make it out to be

On the other end though, Touhou doesn't have to be a phenomenon to get in though. I don't think Nintendo Exclusively picks characters from Franchises that can be recognized on the street from Many people. Perhaps Touhou is just known by the gamers in Japan, and that's really all it needs.

On the other token though, Rayman is known by gamers at large also, at least in Regions besides in the East, so yeah

Exactly. He's no mario and sonic for sure but pretending Reimu is more known than him is kinda laughable even if she is decently known in japan

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

1984年のきょう『ダックハント』(Duck Hunt)発売!!
元々はカモやクレーをプロジェクターで投映し､光線銃で撃つ電子玩具｡
ファミコンのダックハントは､海外ではNES本体同梱版､スーパーマリオ同梱版などがあったため､かなりの普及本数を誇ります｡推定2800万本以上というハナシも｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/21mJsGWEiL

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 21, 2021

Duck Hunt turns 37 today!

 

[Gnateb]

Ok yeah haha, but I'm not sure if he'd add a character who is literally just a living spoiler. He'll sure spoil characters on spirit boards though

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm not sure if he'd add a character who is literally just a living spoiler

This is the same man who made turning into Sheik one of Zelda's moves.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Shovel Knight's assist trophy is awesome imo, but I was still sad to see him become one.

When it comes to Undertale reps, Sans and Frisk are definitely not my first choices. My most wanted Undertale character falls into the "spoiler category", and since Sakurai obviously cares about not spoiling RPGs, this character is double-not-happening. I don't know how to hide spoiler text, but most of you can probably surmise the guy I'm describing. He's one of my favorite final boss characters ever, hands down, especially since my first playthrough was blind

I guess I'll spoiler mark this just in case but whenever I see an Undertale fighter suggested for SSBU I always think how are they gonna handle the Chara/Frisk situation? Like would the fighter's name on the character selection screen be Chara or Frisk? I feel like Frisk makes more sense cuz I feel like they're more of the protagonist, but also you kinda don't even play as Frisk and aaaaa it's confusing and would be a spoiler either way. They of course could name the fighter Child or Fallen Child but that also sounds kinda off in its own way...

 

[Gnateb]

I guess I'll spoiler mark this just in case but whenever I see an Undertale fighter suggested for SSBU I always think how are they gonna handle the Chara/Frisk situation? Like would the fighter's name on the character selection screen be Chara or Frisk? I feel like Frisk makes more sense cuz I feel like they're more of the protagonist, but also you kinda don't even play as Frisk and aaaaa it's confusing and would be a spoiler either way. They of course could name the fighter Child or Fallen Child but that also sounds kinda off in its own way...

Spoiler: I agree. There are spoilers for Undertale beneath.

The character I was talking about is Asriel, I also think Frisk/Chara would be eh moveset wise.

 

[Louie G.]

That said, when I said there were some extreme exceptions towards lopsided popularity probably being prohibitive, I consider Halo one of those exceptions. I think it was monumental enough outside Japan that it being pretty niche over there won't stunt its chances to the point of implausibility. I've posited it as the inverse of Dragon Quest and I still see it that way, more or less.

I'm glad to hear someone else echo my thoughts verbatim - it's always a bit of a shaky ground to create parallels between series like that (hence why I've generally kept from saying it myself lmao), but I always thought it made sense to consider Halo to be our DQ equivalent. Halo releases have been absolutely monumental over here and Chief remains an exalted western icon of gaming to this day. And it pretty much revolutionized the single most prevalent genre in western gaming today.

It's no secret that Halo lacks the same broad appeal and significance overseas that it possesses here, but by virtue of just being SO BIG here and at least having some degree of brand recognition over there it's hard to count it out in the same way you may be skeptical of say, Rayman or maybe like... Scorpion? I guess that's a weird one since MK is extremely popular but just lacks any and all presence in Japan whatsoever. I dunno, bottom line I agree with you big time.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You may be right, but we CAN also talk about characters getting in for reasons other than iconicness...

...was anyone telling you not to? Because people ARE telling us not to talk about iconicness.

 

[N3ON]

I understand what you've said with Halo being exception. But, my point is that people still bring up Japan factor. It sounds like U.S electoral college system or gerrymandering.

I think it's an important part of the equation. There is highly important region that Chief doesn't greatly appeal to, which is typically pretty crucial for Smash inclusions, especially for third-parties. I think he'd be able to overcome it thanks to his overwhelming prominence elsewhere. But that's no guarantee.

The parallel to the electoral college goes as far as wanting to appeal to as many regions as possible... and that's where it ends. Unlike that electoral system, there are only two real districts in play here - Japan and not Japan (with not Japan probably just being NA and Europe, given they are the biggest markets) - and Nintendo tries to make choices which appeal to both. If you don't appeal to one, there aren't forty-nine others. You don't get to gerrymander because there's only two real regions with clearly defined, unchanging boundaries.

If the US only had two states, you can bet the majority of the candidates would be chosen on their basis of appealing to both. That's why the majority of presidents are, by American political standards, moderates; either center-right or center-left.

So you don't want to alienate one of your key demographics unless the alternative demographic under focus is so large it will compensate for shying away from the other. And there are only a limited number of characters I believe Nintendo will see as those who can achieve that and are worthwhile additions. I think Hero was one. I think Chief would be another, but I'm just speculating here.

 

[SKX31]

This was pointing out hypocrisy of dogging on one character for the iconic arguement but using it against another character, not a gotcha moment.

And no he's not equally obscure as Reimu lmfao. Being well known in several countries is better than being well known in one country, so not really an inverse. But like I said I'm not here to continue discussing reimu I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of this thread

For what it's worth, I haven't been talking about Rayman much at all, and I don't know how many of the people here have either. The thread would seem hypocritical if it were a person, but it's not. It's multiple people, with different opinions and standards. You can't really point fingers at "the thread" when the thread itself doesn't make one singular decision.

It should also be noted that in the context of Smash, it's more or less an inverse. The major markets are boiled down to the West and Japan, with the West being grouped together because of shared interests and statuses. Nintendo viewed the West as multiple markets like you made it out to be, then Japan basically wouldn't matter and we might've never gotten the likes of Marth and Hero. When you factor in how Western countries tend to share more interests with each other than Japan at least game-wise, they can be grouped together, and it gets simplified to just Japan and overseas.

Admittedly, I'm not the best with foreign markets and stuff like that, so there's a decent chance I got something wrong. Tagging SKX31 for clarification, since they're the resident expert on markets and how they're grouped and all that.

They used to have a link, but then IT DIED like all things that get involved with Dark Souls

...I should've cross-referenced one of my older posts when I wrote that Rayman could be counted as a "literal who" in Russia - because it's (at least somewhat) inaccurate by mistake. I'll admit, that was a mistake on my end. Nevertheless, I'll get back to this point when I talk about Russia - one of the regions where Nintendo have historically struggled.

When it comes to markets, I've seen all kinds of groupings (even EMEAA - Europe Middle East Africa Australasia, basically the whole Old World + Oceania thrown in. Needless to say, this grouping is insane). Also, mobile gaming is worldwide, so I won't discuss that area in depth. Nevertheless, the video game world can be roughly divided as follows (this might have some inaccuracies, but I'm trying to ensure that it's fact-checked):

WARNING, THIS POST IS ****ING LONG AS ****. MULTIPLE SPOILERS DEPLOYED. I'M COVERING EVERY SINGLE INCH OF THE GLOBE, BAYBEE!

Spoiler: Historically major regions

* NA ( / ): The "prototypical" Western region in the daily parlance. Partly because arcade gaming and then console gaming first took root here. And partly because Microsoft - a massive force within both the PC and console space - is native to the US. Has a significant consumer base following all three console families, and a significant computer playerbase. Nintendo considers this a major region due to their long and successful presence, and have based some Smash picks off of games successful in America (Metroid being the primary example, but also DKC and Punch-Out).

* Japan : Home to both Nintendo and Sony, and as such their consoles are the primary gaming platforms. Infamously the country where the Xbox really struggles, due to a host of socio-cultural and marketing reasons. Computers are also present, but not in as significant numbers due to a number of factors (and even then, the popularity of computer games vary from NA / EU). Japan's gaming roots is about as old as America's, with arcade games taking root around the same time. Since Japan is Nintendo's home, they consider this a major - if not the primary region, and well, Smash Bros. development team is all-Japanese. Japan's not the be-all-end-all, but a lot of people have argued it's the center of gravity when it comes to Smash, and with good reason.

* Europe (incl. ): The home of PAL. Gaming took root here a bit later than NA / JP, during the 80s, due to a relatively less noticeable arcade scene. Computers got off the ground first, and as such there's a much stronger computer games tradition than NA or JP does (Rareware and Ubisoft started off as computer game corps before shifting to consoles, and the computer game environment lead to Minecraft amongst other games). Consoles took a little longer to truly get going here, but by now all three console manufacturers have a strong foothold here. Eastern Europe leans even more towards computers than the West due to having generally less money to spend - this is going to be a trend. Like NA Nintendo considers Europe (mostly Western EU) a major region and has based some of the Smash picks partly off of what's popular here. Most console characters which are popular in Western EU are also popular in NA due to a mostly shared console / computer history.

* Oceania ( / etc.): This region has its own interesting history with video games, partly due to it sharing the same PAL setting as EU. partly due to its relatively remote location and some extremely odd internet regulations (to say the least). Nevertheless, the region started to get a solid video game playerbase not long after the other major regions, and the console manufacturers soon started selling here as well. While it previously was considered by Nintendo to be combined with EU, the region's counted as a "stand-alone", but still a region Nintendo's made sure to cover. Also the home to Untitled Goose Game, the true CP11.

Spoiler: Recent major regions / borderline cases and primary expansion targets for Nintendo

* LatAm ( , Central America, South America): Arcades survived for much longer here - KOF's fandom here grew thanks to a long-lasting arcade scene - and consoles were regularily imported from NA but in somewhat small numbers. While consoles have had some presence, LatAm is more defined by computers and internet cafés (IIRC), and it took quite a while for Nintendo to truly get a foothold here. But they did manage. Recently Nintendo's started to combine LatAm with NA in their sales numbers as well as increase their presence, and as such Nintendo considers LatAm a major region. One country of note is Brazil, which Nintendo has kinda-sorta struggled with at times (having exited it between 2015 and 2020 IIRC).

* South Korea : The "home" of StarCraft, LoL, Tekken, Overwatch, e-Sports and high speed Internet. Also the actual home to games like MapleStory and Dungeon Fighter Online. Saw its first gaming boom when the South Korean government decided to implement its high speed plan in the 90s, and thus the "PC Bang" - PC Room aka. Internet Café exploded in popularity. Massive Blizzard fandom here, and it ain't a coincidence. There is a console fanbase here, but Nintendo has occassionally struggled - Nintendo of Korea was close to shutting its doors during the Wii U era. Nintendo's certainly interested with this country, but has yet to get the strongest of footholds.

* China (plus etc.): Hoo boy. The history of video games here is indeed defined by a permanent fissure of sorts - the stuff that's officially released, and the stuff that gets through the grey market. The government's stance towards video games has generally been one of suspicion and Moral Guardian-ism; as such the government set up a truly byzantine approval system that they tighten with each Moral Panic: they'll go through every inch of code, and anything that conflicts the official line will be rejected on sight and denied official release. Plus games that can be used as anti-government mobilization tools: one of the reasons New Horizons was blacklisted. Most people lean on what's officially released, and as such games like LoL have a massive following here. But that's where the grey market undercuts official efforts - it's incredibly easy to import consoles and not officially approved games - including New Horizons - via Shanghai, Hong Kong and Steam. Due to that China's the biggest non-major region Nintendo has (at an estimated 4 million Switches), and Nintendo's marked this region as their primary target of expansion by partnering with megacorp Tencent. Still, it'll be difficult for Nintendo to truly expand here, due to the significant hurdles and it historically being a piracy haven. KOF's popularity here came as a result of piracy, for example (same with LatAm above). Traditionally China's been where WoW and other PC games of its vein gained its arguably strongest hold, and nowadays mobile games are integrated with social media to a degree Zuckerberg could only dream of.


* Southeast Asia ( etc.): Several SmashBoards members come from this region, which hint at a surprisingly rich gaming history. The region's historically been much more computer-leaning than India, and kinda alike China with a lot of internet cafés and mobile gaming. This has made games like LoL / Dota 2 etc. very popular in the region. The region is also pretty splintered, with different countries leaning towards different games. Nintendo (as well as Sony / Microsoft) has a somewhat wonky history here, with infrequent console releases and a lack of standarization until the Switch. The consoles are sold via a partnership with Maxsoft (same partner as with Middle East) and currently is kinda niché. Still, there's a small but noticeable Nintendo / Smash fanbase here, as the members can attest to. And I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo's thinking of targetting this region for the medium-to-long term. Not major yet, but still.

Spoiler: Where Nintendo's historically struggled / only recently started to pick up

* Russia (and CIS nations - the former Soviet Union): This region skews even more towards PC / mobile, with PlayStation dominating the console space. When I made the mistake re: Rayman, I was thinking about the fact that the console games like his and others of his gen were not even feasible to buy at the time (I find it decently likely that Rayman saw a surge of popularity here because he became available on the more-accessible phones). "Home" to games like Dota 2, CS GO and actual home to World of Tanks (with its developer being based in Minsk, Belarus), and its console gaming population leans hardcore. This region has been particularily difficult for Nintendo to get into - it was only with the Switch that Nintendo started offering Russian translations of important games. There's a small but noticeable Nintendo fanbase here, but Nintendo of Russia's been through some internal turmoil recently.

* Middle East / North Africa: This region's gone unnoticed by most, with the first time most people here heard about a gaming fandom was when a certain Saudi Crown Prince seriously entered talks to buy SNK. But that belies a deeper history with video games. In particular video games have long been mostly computers, arcades, the occassional console and later mobile - although the harsher governments / regimes have tried to stop that completely (not to mention, conflicts, which has caused Nintendo to double take). Most of the popular games here look surprisingly like EU's, with God of War PS4 having done well around the time it released. Still, consoles were a complete late-comer here, with the first time Sony and Nintendo gained much of anything here being the recent PS4 / Switch era. While Nintendo sells consoles here through its partnership with Maxsoft and there's a small but noticeable Nintendo fanbase here, it'll still remain relatively minor in the forseeable future. Pakistan is worth mentioning here, not only due to some truely bizzare Sonic Heroes McDonalds ads, but also since Pakistan's home to a surprisingly big Tekken community - to the point where its best have fought with Korea's and Japan's best. And even bested them.

* India (and South Asia): This country's relationship with video games has long been rather strange. Nintendo apparently did sell some consoles here through a partner, but evidently couldn't get that to last. PC gaming did take off, but it did not become 100 % mainstream. However, Ubisoft have two development studios here, one of which working at the Prince of Persia remake. But then, mobile gaming is king here. To the point where it's become a flashpoint for the Indian government - following the China-India border skirmish India blacklisted a number of Chinese apps (incl. the then- #1 game in India PUBG Mobile). As for Nintendo, they've kinda struggled to even enter the country officially, owing to a complex set of regulations. And prices spiked harshly for Switch imports following the pandemic and supply chain being cut. There's a small Nintendo fanbase here, but it's relatively tiny compared to the country / region in total. Potentially tempting target because India like China has a ****ing huge population, but the barriers are still major.

* Africa: The stereotypical image of Africa is not really accurate, although as a very vague rule of thumb (it's nigh impossible to generalize, but still) video games in Africa have historically been on rather shaky grounds. Aggressive power cuts are the norm in some countries (akin to some countries in the Middle East), the Internet availability can be really wonky, and so on. Hasn't stopped people from getting stuff like mobiles, computers or even arraging console game competitions. Mobile / multiplayer games are particularily favored as another very vague rule of thumb. South Africa's somewhat an exception here due to a more built up infrastructure - it's the only African country Nintendo has an official presence in. As I said in that linked post, do not expect Africa to become a major player for Nintendo in the forseeable future - Nintendo's historically been very cautious about entering countries to begin with.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Interesting theory, I do kinda like the idea of Katalina entering the roster. ^^

With that said, since every CP has some form of uniqueness in their mechanics, what would Katalina's be?

I have no idea. I'm not familiar with Granblue, nor am I that interested in the series either. She has Water and Ice abilities though, and apparently she got a stand in Granblue Fantasy

I also wasn't being specific towards one character. I left it open to Granblue, Dragalia Lost, any other Cygames I.P in general

As a Granblue player myself I'd say in confidence that she doesn't really have anything special to her other than having water ability, she only uses that to infused her sword attack (a fancy word for special effect) and that's it, her so called ""stand"" just give you buffs, pretty lackluster considering there's a ton of water/ice user in the game like Lancelot who uses his Ice power to the fullest, don't blame her really considering she's the first character you obtained.




Though I will say I don't really put much hope for Katalina, I blame Hitagi for this and now she's the face of Granblue in speculation.. kinda sad.

 

[Lionfranky]

I think it's an important part of the equation. There is highly important region that Chief doesn't greatly appeal to, which is typically pretty crucial for Smash inclusions, especially for third-parties. I think he'd be able to overcome it thanks to his overwhelming prominence elsewhere. But that's no guarantee.

The parallel to the electoral college goes as far as wanting to appeal to as many regions as possible... and that's where it ends. Unlike that electoral system, there are only two real districts in play here - Japan and not Japan (with not Japan probably just being NA and Europe, given they are the biggest markets) - and Nintendo tries to make choices which appeal to both. If you don't appeal to one, there aren't forty-nine others. You don't get to gerrymander because there's only two real regions with clearly defined, unchanging boundaries.

If the US only had two states, you can bet the majority of the candidates would be chosen on their basis of appealing to both. That's why the majority of presidents are, by American political standards, moderates; either center-right or center-left.

So you don't want to alienate one of your key demographics unless the alternative demographic under focus is so large it will compensate for shying away from the other. And there are only a limited number of characters I believe Nintendo will see as those who can achieve that and are worthwhile additions. I think Hero was one. I think Chief would be another, but I'm just speculating here.

I agree with you. It's important not to leave out important demographic. But, Japan is like 1/4 of Ultimate sales. Yeah, that's still big chunk, but I'm not sure that's enough to be concerned all the time. It's not like all those Japanese players were familiar with Banjo.

Anyway, sorry about dragging on this. It's just that gatekeepers kept giving me headache.

 

[Idon]

her so called ""stand"" just give you buffs

Well in Persona, your Persona is really just a ball of stats that casts your skills for you in the original game, but here it supplements Joker's overall moveset.

Anyway, Zooey for Smash

 

[Commander_Alph]

Well in Persona, your Persona is really just a ball of stats that casts your skills for you in the original game, but here it supplements Joker's overall moveset.

Anyway, Zooey for Smash

well, Granblue and Persona is really different because most of the flashy things you do is fueled by a meter which filled throughout the duration of turns that you spent, at least a Persona could cast an attack like Eiha or Vorpal Blade which you can't say the same with her, if the character is solely about summoning that's a different story and Katalina in no way shape or form is a summoner, you could say her """"stand"""" is just a fighting spirit.


Anyway, frick Katalina stan Gran/Djeeta she doesn't deserve all this attention

 

[7NATOR]

As a Granblue player myself I'd say in confidence that she doesn't really have anything special to her other than having water ability, she only uses that to infused her sword attack (a fancy word for special effect) and that's it, her so called ""stand"" just give you buffs, pretty lackluster considering there's a ton of water/ice user in the game like Lancelot who uses his Ice power to the fullest, don't blame her really considering she's the first character you obtained.




Though I will say I don't really put much hope for Katalina, I blame Hitagi for this and now she's the face of Granblue in speculation.. kinda sad.

If she really isn't that special, maybe that's why she apparently failed the "Prototype" testing for FP1 along with Dante and Melmetal apparently, because she was too "Lame" or something (If this rumor was true, I think Dante had the opposite problem of being too Awesome for his own good)

Doesn't the Granblue Fantasy Fighting game and the unreleased Granblue Action game give her cooler moves though?

In any case, Gran/Djetta would have Job switching mechanics right? I know that Sakurai briefly mentioned something about wanting to experiment with a Job System in an article about Cloud I believe. As we see with Rex and Pyra/Mythra, and Chrom and Robin in Smash 4, Sakurai does have moveset implementation and/or Potential in mind when it comes to the rep, Whether it would be interesting, and whether it could actually be coded into the game

 

[N3ON]

I'm glad to hear someone else echo my thoughts verbatim - it's always a bit of a shaky ground to create parallels between series like that (hence why I've generally kept from saying it myself lmao), but I always thought it made sense to consider Halo to be our DQ equivalent. Halo releases have been absolutely monumental over here and Chief remains an exalted western icon of gaming to this day. And it pretty much revolutionized the single most prevalent genre in western gaming today.

It's no secret that Halo lacks the same broad appeal and significance overseas that it possesses here, but by virtue of just being SO BIG here and at least having some degree of brand recognition over there it's hard to count it out in the same way you may be skeptical of say, Rayman or maybe like... Scorpion? I guess that's a weird one since MK is extremely popular but just lacks any and all presence in Japan whatsoever. I dunno, bottom line I agree with you big time.

Thanks! And yeah, no series can work as a 1:1 with others, and I've been challenged on the comparison before, mostly due to differing minutia, but I'll be damned if you're going to get a closer comparison for this parallel.

I agree with you. It's important not to leave out important demographic. But, Japan is like 1/4 of Ultimate sales. Yeah, that's still big chunk, but I'm not sure that's enough to be concerned all the time. It's not like all those Japanese players were familiar with Banjo.

Anyway, sorry about dragging on this. It's just that gatekeepers kept giving me headache.

No worries, I don't really mind talking too much, lol.

I agree, Japan does make up a disproportionately small percent of the total audience to constitute a relatively large percent of the attention, but it's a Japanese game made by a Japanese company with mostly Japanese characters from itself and other Japanese companies. Look at the roster. That's just the way it is. That's just the way Nintendo is.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Doesn't the Granblue Fantasy Fighting game and the unreleased Granblue Action game give her cooler moves though?

No, still pretty much a basic character, you could say that to Gran's own main crew

In any case, Gran/Djetta would have Job switching mechanics right? I know that Sakurai briefly mentioned something about wanting to experiment with a Job System in an article about Cloud I believe. As we see with Rex and Pyra/Mythra, and Chrom and Robin in Smash 4, Sakurai does have moveset implementation and/or Potential in mind when it comes to the rep, Whether it would be interesting, and whether it could actually be coded into the game

The job switching mechanic could be interpreted in various ways: One, be like Byleth where they uses different weapon in their attack. Two, only in their specials where they will switches clothing. Or Three, let the player switch playstyle one the CSS, considering this is the same character who is an alt of each other than their outfit and moves.

 

[7NATOR]

No, still pretty much a basic character, you could say that to Gran's own main crew

The job switching mechanic could be interpreted in various ways: One, be like Byleth where they uses different weapon in their attack. Two, only in their specials where they will switches clothing. Or Three, let the player switch playstyle one the CSS, considering this is the same character who is an alt of each other than their outfit and moves.

I know with the Last idea, that was a similar idea that was proposed for Monster Hunter by Papagenos. I don't know when you mean Playstyle, you mean entire different moveset, or Same moveset with Different properties or so

I think it might work like the 2nd idea since I doubt they just do a repeat of Byleth

Well then I ask what type of abilities do both of these characters have though. They are the Main characters, so they probably get some extreme abilities

 

[Mushroomguy12]

2nd Pic of the Day today.

1989年のきょう､ゲームボーイ(GAMEBOY)発売!!
ということは､『スーパーマリオランド』(Super Mario Land)も発売｡デイジー初登場です｡OH! DAISY!!
何台も持っていたひともいるかもしれませんね｡思い入れの深いタイトルは､何ですか?#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/q4oKMyJbfc

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 21, 2021

HI I'M DAISY!

 

[Commander_Alph]

Well then I ask what type of abilities do both of these characters have though. They are the Main characters, so they probably get some extreme abilities

Well, with the assistance of Lyria they could summon a Primal Beast, if they die you can't actually access it so they're very crucial. They can equipped different weapon with each having their own element, not only you can wield a fire-blazing axe but you can also shoot a gun with ice properties and with different outfit that you can equipped they have different attack animation and charge attack if you use a specific weapon.

 

[ZelDan]

2nd Pic of the Day today.

1989年のきょう､ゲームボーイ(GAMEBOY)発売!!
ということは､『スーパーマリオランド』(Super Mario Land)も発売｡デイジー初登場です｡OH! DAISY!!
何台も持っていたひともいるかもしれませんね｡思い入れの深いタイトルは､何ですか?#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/q4oKMyJbfc

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 21, 2021

HI I'M DAISY!

Ah yes, who could forget the lovable grey brick that allowed us to play some fun games...and take pictures...and be used as a radio...and could be used to type up documents...and be used as a sonar to find fish underwater...and was almost used to sedate children at hospitals...and probably a bunch of other **** I don't know or am forgetting...

(I may have rewatched AVGN's gameboy accessories video recently...)

 

[cashregister9]

Ah yes, who could forget the lovable grey brick that allowed us to play some fun games...and take pictures...and be used as a radio...and could be used to type stuff up documents...and be used as a sonar to find fish underwater...and was almost used to sedate children at hospitals...and probably a bunch of other **** I don't know or am forgetting...

(I may have rewatched AVGN's gameboy accessories video recently...)

I WANT TO BE SEDATED WITH A GAME BOOOOOOY

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Happy 15th Anniversary to Okami!

On this day, 15 years ago, Okami revitalized the world with its beautiful art style and unforgettable journey! ☀️

As a token of our appreciation for your support all these years, please enjoy this new ukiyo-e art piece! 🐺🖌 pic.twitter.com/oi1Ib2MHM4

— Okami (@OkamiOfficial) April 20, 2021

Nintendo can we get Ammy in Smash?
"We have Amaterasu at home"
The Ammy at home:

 

[Guynamednelson]

and probably a bunch of other **** I don't know or am forgetting

Here's one: The Bible. In its entirety.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I guess I'll spoiler mark this just in case but whenever I see an Undertale fighter suggested for SSBU I always think how are they gonna handle the Chara/Frisk situation? Like would the fighter's name on the character selection screen be Chara or Frisk? I feel like Frisk makes more sense cuz I feel like they're more of the protagonist, but also you kinda don't even play as Frisk and aaaaa it's confusing and would be a spoiler either way. They of course could name the fighter Child or Fallen Child but that also sounds kinda off in its own way...

Spoiler

You do play as Frisk, the only way you “play” as Chara is if you believe your and Frisk’s actions guide them either towards believing in being good or in being a crazed megalomaniac, if Chara is linked to Frisk in someway and is why their name shows up in battle, and/or if you believe they’re partly the player and not just a character in the lore since you name them (this stuff or at least the first two feel implied imo but it’s technically not confirmed).

Personally I think it would just be “Frisk” with Chara as 4 of the alts., official Undertale stuff has already used “Frisk” instead of “The Human” in some stuff iirc and Toby Fox used “Chara” in concept art of them and Asriel which he revealed on Twitter, though they could also go with just “The Human” I guess.

They would definitely use both “Frisk” and “Chara” if not “The Human/Fallen Child” or something if they represent both, using one name wouldn’t make sense as they’re separate characters.

 

[ZelDan]

Here's one: The Bible. In its entirety.
View attachment 312244

Religious Mother: "Now why are you playing video games when you should be reading your bible!"

Child: "About that..."

 

[osby]

If she really isn't that special, maybe that's why she apparently failed the "Prototype" testing for FP1 along with Dante and Melmetal apparently, because she was too "Lame" or something (If this rumor was true, I think Dante had the opposite problem of being too Awesome for his own good)

I refuse to accept that "too lame for Smash" is a thing when we have Banjo. A character having a too complex basic playstyle for Smash might be a thing (happened with Heihachi) but Dante already appeared in 2D fighting games so I don't think it's that hard to give him a faithful moveset.

 

[Lionfranky]

No worries, I don't really mind talking too much, lol.

I agree, Japan does make up a disproportionately small percent of the total audience to constitute a relatively large percent of the attention, but it's a Japanese game made by a Japanese company with mostly Japanese characters from itself and other Japanese companies. Look at the roster. That's just the way it is. That's just the way Nintendo is.

Which I think is slowly changing. I know Nintendo is not Capcom or Bamco, but Nintendo is still a company that aims for global appeal. If Capcom and Bamco could appeal to western markets before Nintendo, I don't see big fuss about Nintendo doing the same. It's true that Nintendo made a game that was specifically tailored to U.S aka Star Tropics which wasn't even released in Japan. But, that's different story. I believe Banjo already broke concept of bias toward Japan somewhat.

"We are offering you Steve and Master Chief."

"I see... I will take Steve, but not Chief because we have to take 1/4 of our base although Chief would bring potential millions of new players, and Smash sell way more in non-Japan market!"

 

[SharkLord]

...I should've cross-referenced one of my older posts when I wrote that Rayman could be counted as a "literal who" in Russia - because it's (at least somewhat) inaccurate by mistake. I'll admit, that was a mistake on my end. Nevertheless, I'll get back to this point when I talk about Russia - one of the regions where Nintendo have historically struggled.

When it comes to markets, I've seen all kinds of groupings (even EMEAA - Europe Middle East Africa Australasia, basically the whole Old World + Oceania thrown in. Needless to say, this grouping is insane). Also, mobile gaming is worldwide, so I won't discuss that area in depth. Nevertheless, the video game world can be roughly divided as follows (this might have some inaccuracies, but I'm trying to ensure that it's fact-checked):

WARNING, THIS POST IS *ING LONG AS *. MULTIPLE SPOILERS DEPLOYED. I'M COVERING EVERY SINGLE INCH OF THE GLOBE, BAYBEE!

Spoiler: Historically major regions

* NA ( / ): The "prototypical" Western region in the daily parlance. Partly because arcade gaming and then console gaming first took root here. And partly because Microsoft - a massive force within both the PC and console space - is native to the US. Has a significant consumer base following all three console families, and a significant computer playerbase. Nintendo considers this a major region due to their long and successful presence, and have based some Smash picks off of games successful in America (Metroid being the primary example, but also DKC and Punch-Out).

* Japan : Home to both Nintendo and Sony, and as such their consoles are the primary gaming platforms. Infamously the country where the Xbox really struggles, due to a host of socio-cultural and marketing reasons. Computers are also present, but not in as significant numbers due to a number of factors (and even then, the popularity of computer games vary from NA / EU). Japan's gaming roots is about as old as America's, with arcade games taking root around the same time. Since Japan is Nintendo's home, they consider this a major - if not the primary region, and well, Smash Bros. development team is all-Japanese. Japan's not the be-all-end-all, but a lot of people have argued it's the center of gravity when it comes to Smash, and with good reason.

* Europe (incl. ): The home of PAL. Gaming took root here a bit later than NA / JP, during the 80s, due to a relatively less noticeable arcade scene. Computers got off the ground first, and as such there's a much stronger computer games tradition than NA or JP does (Rareware and Ubisoft started off as computer game corps before shifting to consoles, and the computer game environment lead to Minecraft amongst other games). Consoles took a little longer to truly get going here, but by now all three console manufacturers have a strong foothold here. Eastern Europe leans even more towards computers than the West due to having generally less money to spend - this is going to be a trend. Like NA Nintendo considers Europe (mostly Western EU) a major region and has based some of the Smash picks partly off of what's popular here. Most console characters which are popular in Western EU are also popular in NA due to a mostly shared console / computer history.

* Oceania ( / etc.): This region has its own interesting history with video games, partly due to it sharing the same PAL setting as EU. partly due to its relatively remote location and some extremely odd internet regulations (to say the least). Nevertheless, the region started to get a solid video game playerbase not long after the other major regions, and the console manufacturers soon started selling here as well. While it previously was considered by Nintendo to be combined with EU, the region's counted as a "stand-alone", but still a region Nintendo's made sure to cover. Also the home to Untitled Goose Game, the true CP11.

Spoiler: Recent major regions / borderline cases and primary expansion targets for Nintendo

* LatAm ( , Central America, South America): Arcades survived for much longer here - KOF's fandom here grew thanks to a long-lasting arcade scene - and consoles were regularily imported from NA but in somewhat small numbers. While consoles have had some presence, LatAm is more defined by computers and internet cafés (IIRC), and it took quite a while for Nintendo to truly get a foothold here. But they did manage. Recently Nintendo's started to combine LatAm with NA in their sales numbers as well as increase their presence, and as such Nintendo considers LatAm a major region. One country of note is Brazil, which Nintendo has kinda-sorta struggled with at times (having exited it between 2015 and 2020 IIRC).

* South Korea : The "home" of StarCraft, LoL, Tekken, Overwatch, e-Sports and high speed Internet. Also the actual home to games like MapleStory and Dungeon Fighter Online. Saw its first gaming boom when the South Korean government decided to implement its high speed plan in the 90s, and thus the "PC Bang" - PC Room aka. Internet Café exploded in popularity. Massive Blizzard fandom here, and it ain't a coincidence. There is a console fanbase here, but Nintendo has occassionally struggled - Nintendo of Korea was close to shutting its doors during the Wii U era. Nintendo's certainly interested with this country, but has yet to get the strongest of footholds.

* China (plus etc.): Hoo boy. The history of video games here is indeed defined by a permanent fissure of sorts - the stuff that's officially released, and the stuff that gets through the grey market. The government's stance towards video games has generally been one of suspicion and Moral Guardian-ism; as such the government set up a truly byzantine approval system that they tighten with each Moral Panic: they'll go through every inch of code, and anything that conflicts the official line will be rejected on sight and denied official release. Plus games that can be used as anti-government mobilization tools: one of the reasons New Horizons was blacklisted. Most people lean on what's officially released, and as such games like LoL have a massive following here. But that's where the grey market undercuts official efforts - it's incredibly easy to import consoles and not officially approved games - including New Horizons - via Shanghai, Hong Kong and Steam. Due to that China's the biggest non-major region Nintendo has (at an estimated 4 million Switches), and Nintendo's marked this region as their primary target of expansion by partnering with megacorp Tencent. Still, it'll be difficult for Nintendo to truly expand here, due to the significant hurdles and it historically being a piracy haven. KOF's popularity here came as a result of piracy, for example (same with LatAm above). Traditionally China's been where WoW and other PC games of its vein gained its arguably strongest hold, and nowadays mobile games are integrated with social media to a degree Zuckerberg could only dream of.


* Southeast Asia ( etc.): Several SmashBoards members come from this region, which hint at a surprisingly rich gaming history. The region's historically been much more computer-leaning than India, and kinda alike China with a lot of internet cafés and mobile gaming. This has made games like LoL / Dota 2 etc. very popular in the region. The region is also pretty splintered, with different countries leaning towards different games. Nintendo (as well as Sony / Microsoft) has a somewhat wonky history here, with infrequent console releases and a lack of standarization until the Switch. The consoles are sold via a partnership with Maxsoft (same partner as with Middle East) and currently is kinda niché. Still, there's a small but noticeable Nintendo / Smash fanbase here, as the members can attest to. And I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo's thinking of targetting this region for the medium-to-long term. Not major yet, but still.

Spoiler: Where Nintendo's historically struggled / only recently started to pick up

* Russia (and CIS nations - the former Soviet Union): This region skews even more towards PC / mobile, with PlayStation dominating the console space. When I made the mistake re: Rayman, I was thinking about the fact that the console games like his and others of his gen were not even feasible to buy at the time (I find it decently likely that Rayman saw a surge of popularity here because he became available on the more-accessible phones). "Home" to games like Dota 2, CS GO and actual home to World of Tanks (with its developer being based in Minsk, Belarus), and its console gaming population leans hardcore. This region has been particularily difficult for Nintendo to get into - it was only with the Switch that Nintendo started offering Russian translations of important games. There's a small but noticeable Nintendo fanbase here, but Nintendo of Russia's been through some internal turmoil recently.

* Middle East / North Africa: This region's gone unnoticed by most, with the first time most people here heard about a gaming fandom was when a certain Saudi Crown Prince seriously entered talks to buy SNK. But that belies a deeper history with video games. In particular video games have long been mostly computers, arcades, the occassional console and later mobile - although the harsher governments / regimes have tried to stop that completely (not to mention, conflicts, which has caused Nintendo to double take). Most of the popular games here look surprisingly like EU's, with God of War PS4 having done well around the time it released. Still, consoles were a complete late-comer here, with the first time Sony and Nintendo gained much of anything here being the recent PS4 / Switch era. While Nintendo sells consoles here through its partnership with Maxsoft and there's a small but noticeable Nintendo fanbase here, it'll still remain relatively minor in the forseeable future. Pakistan is worth mentioning here, not only due to some truely bizzare Sonic Heroes McDonalds ads, but also since Pakistan's home to a surprisingly big Tekken community - to the point where its best have fought with Korea's and Japan's best. And even bested them.

* India (and South Asia): This country's relationship with video games has long been rather strange. Nintendo apparently did sell some consoles here through a partner, but evidently couldn't get that to last. PC gaming did take off, but it did not become 100 % mainstream. However, Ubisoft have two development studios here, one of which working at the Prince of Persia remake. But then, mobile gaming is king here. To the point where it's become a flashpoint for the Indian government - following the China-India border skirmish India blacklisted a number of Chinese apps (incl. the then- #1 game in India PUBG Mobile). As for Nintendo, they've kinda struggled to even enter the country officially, owing to a complex set of regulations. And prices spiked harshly for Switch imports following the pandemic and supply chain being cut. There's a small Nintendo fanbase here, but it's relatively tiny compared to the country / region in total. Potentially tempting target because India like China has a ****ing huge population, but the barriers are still major.

* Africa: The stereotypical image of Africa is not really accurate, although as a very vague rule of thumb (it's nigh impossible to generalize, but still) video games in Africa have historically been on rather shaky grounds. Aggressive power cuts are the norm in some countries (akin to some countries in the Middle East), the Internet availability can be really wonky, and so on. Hasn't stopped people from getting stuff like mobiles, computers or even arraging console game competitions. Mobile / multiplayer games are particularily favored as another very vague rule of thumb. South Africa's somewhat an exception here due to a more built up infrastructure - it's the only African country Nintendo has an official presence in. As I said in that linked post, do not expect Africa to become a major player for Nintendo in the forseeable future - Nintendo's historically been very cautious about entering countries to begin with.

Ah, thanks, this was pretty informative.

As you stated, North America and Western Europe share similar console histories and console character interests as a result. Plus, Oceania was close enough to Europe to be counted alongside it for a while, and shares PAL setting as well. Based on this, I don't think it would be too inaccurate to group North America, Western Europe, and Oceana together as "The West" when discussing Smash and demographics, thanks to their shared interests.

Also, based on what you've said on the "minor" regions, it seems like Nintendo could at least expand a little if they added a more PC/mobile based character, since those seem to be more focused on those platforms than platforms - Like you said, leaning closer to computers was indeed a trend after Eastern Europe. Of course, Steve does cover those bases pretty well, but I'm sure a more directed character of that umbrella, wouldn't hurt either.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I believe Banjo already broke concept of bias toward Japan somewhat.

Ridley and K. Rool's reveals already dealt major damage towards that viewpoint, and it was cathartic for someone like me who looked at ALL the Sm4sh comment sections in my high school days.

 

[7NATOR]

I refuse to accept that "too lame for Smash" is a thing when we have Banjo. A character having a too complex basic playstyle for Smash might be a thing (happened with Heihachi) but Dante already appeared in 2D fighting games so I don't think it's that hard to give him a faithful moveset.

I wasn't being too serious when I called her lame. That's why I put it in quotations

What I will say Is that it's possible that they may have felt other characters were more interesting however, whether it be from different franchises within the company, different character within the franchise, or they just felt they had to go back to the drawing board altogether

As for Dante, It's really a personal thing for me, but I feel implementing All of his unique abilities, Series mechanics, weapons, etc, not only would take alot of balancing, more than usual, but just alot of workload in terms of modeling and Animating altogether

I mean, you could just give him the Sword and Guns and call it a day, but I don't want him to get Bayonetta'd, and I'm not sure Capcom wants that either. they probably want Dante to be as Crazy as he can be

MVC and Smash are 2 completely different games in terms of control scheme, mechanics, and the like. They only similarity is being on a 2D Plane

 

[Lionfranky]

Ridley and K. Rool's reveals already dealt major damage towards that viewpoint, and it was cathartic for someone like me who looked at ALL the Sm4sh comment sections in my high school days.

"B-but, they are 1st party characters.. a-a-and base contents, so they don't count!"

Talk about shifting the goal.

 

[BlondeLombax]

"B-but, they are 1st party characters.. a-a-and base contents, so they don't count!"

Talk about shifting the goal.

I laugh at the fans who do as such.

Point still stands, Sakurai does care about the west after all.

 

[N3ON]

"I see... I will take Steve, but not Chief because we have to take 1/4 of our base although Chief would bring potential millions of new players, and Smash sell way more in non-Japan market!"

You're really not meeting me halfway here, huh? I've been pretty positive about Chief in all my posts, but what people who get behind characters with lopsided popularity forget are those aren't the only variety out there. Yes, Halo is very big outside Japan, but there are series that are big outside Japan and big inside Japan. It's not one or the other. You don't have to choose one region when there are options that cater to both. And that's what Nintendo usually does.

That in and of itself should cast every character with mostly unilateral popularity into the air. And many won't come back down again. The few who can, like, imo Chief still have to contend with the fact that they're at a huge deficit by coming up short in a category of major importance, being global appeal.

One sticking point in the fanbase is that when one character gets past an obstacle, people take that to mean the obstacle no longer exists. Well no third-party has even gotten past this obstacle of almost exclusively western prominence yet (no, not even Banjo). And if any character could do it, it probably would be Chief (again, I've been pretty bullish on his chances for a western M-rated FPS character that doesn't appeal to Japan whose series has not yet officially been on a Nintendo system from a company that already got two DLC characters). But, it's still a hell of an obstacle. It's Japan ignoring themselves. We don't even get the reverse that often (really only Hero, maybe Terry if you ignore China and LatAm). That inherently should position him as a character that isn't working with the odds, but if lucky, would overcome them. Not someone whose omission would be at all a surprise.

 

[Arcanir]

Ridley and K. Rool's reveals already dealt major damage towards that viewpoint, and it was cathartic for someone like me who looked at ALL the Sm4sh comment sections in my high school days.

K. Rool was actually very popular in Japan, at least within speculative circles. Ridley (and Dark Samus) was really the only one whose popularity heavily leaned on the western fanbase for his appeal.