Dispute Ended: New Sakurai intervew - Wavedashing was intentional

[Hax]

i knew it =P

 

[Firus]

For Brawl, however, to me this is like a killing blow for its competitive value. I'm not talking about the removal of the WD alone, but everything about Brawl is almost anti-competitive (Go to Gimpy and Scar's theads for intelligent info). A veteran in the game should be able to **** when fighting one who has only been playing for a short time.

Smash shouldn't be treated like Mario Party, but Brawl makes it seem like thats the way Nintendo wants it. //

I agree, I find it sickening that Sakurai is so focused on raising everyone's self-esteem. If what he says about everyone winning and losing, and both being the same as long as they both put in the same effort, is true, then doesn't that mean he should stop focusing on making it easy for noobs to win? He's trying to turn it into a game of luck and only luck. If you want to play those sort of things, there are card games. For those that want an all-out brawl, which takes skill and strategy, we should have Smash Bros.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

the flame war is now over, let it go guys

 

[Rhubarbo]

Old'd. Either way, wavedashing was kind of...********. Either way, this proves that Sakurai wants Smash dumbed down. I hope he doesn't make the next one...I really don't want him to...If Nintendo made it though the winning player would trip 1/3 when they walk.

 

[Rhubarbo]

What Sakurai said was that they were aware of it. He was probably just talking about the ability to airdodge into the ground, not actually use that for combat. More importantly, he did not say that it was intentional. In other words, it's a glitch they just didn't think was important enough to fix. Happens all the time.

Wavedashing is not a glitch, it's an exploit. It took me FOREVER to realize that, but it's the cold hard truth! A glitch is somehting that defies the physics of a game that was not intended by the creator (i.e. accessing glitch world in Super Mario Bros). Wavedashing is exploiting Melee's physics engine.

 

[The Executive]

I agree, I find it sickening that Sakurai is so focused on raising everyone's self-esteem. If what he says about everyone winning and losing, and both being the same as long as they both put in the same effort, is true, then doesn't that mean he should stop focusing on making it easy for noobs to win? He's trying to turn it into a game of luck and only luck. If you want to play that sort of things, there are card games. For those that want an all-out brawl, which takes skill and strategy, we should have Smash Bros.

Yeah.

I'm not too impressed about his revelations about a technique that's been in existence for seven years. I'm waiting for the interview where he puts his nauseating collectivist spin on "I erased the fundamental game mechanics from the game series that sold the GameCube and now sells the Wii and as it is my creation I have complete control over how the game should be played. Line my pockets with your tears of gold."

Note: I have nothing against collectivism itself, I have issues when that ideology is applied in force to a game that used to be completely non-focused on group 'fun' and more about beating the holy crap out of everyone else.

Destroy other series, Masahiro Sakurai. Leave mine to me.

 

[PK-ow!]

I would just like to remark that I played Melee constantly and competitively from the time it was released until about a year ago. I did everything I could to become better at the game.

However, I had never thought to seek vids of matches on the interwebs. When I first encountered a pair of friendly but hardcore gamers a year ago, I took up a controller and had a game.
To put it frankly, wavedashing rocked my socks.

But here's the thing I could never get over: I got OWNED. I got REAMED. I had my *** handed to me like I had just picked up the game. Nothing I knew or had learned in all the time I had been playing it seemed to matter. Wave dashing was this new dimension of play that just eclipsed the whole of my ability.
I played more games against the same guys, trying to compensate. Nothing - I was completely, utterly, owned.

That sucked. Knowing I couldn't possibly learn to do it in time for that to be meaningful, I just gave up. Wanting to play Melee only to be good, I just didn't have the heart to play it anymore - I'd know I'd always suck.

And the thing is, I thought, I should have lost by something proportional to the difference in effort between us, me and these guys. But like I said, I lost like I wasn't even playing.
Maybe that's the 'gap' Sakurai meant.

 

[The Executive]

I would just like to remark that I played Melee constantly and competitively from the time it was released until about a year ago. I did everything I could to become better at the game.

However, I had never thought to seek vids of matches on the interwebs. When I first encountered a pair of friendly but hardcore gamers a year ago, I took up a controller and had a game.
To put it frankly, wavedashing rocked my socks.

But here's the thing I could never get over: I got OWNED. I got REAMED. I had my *** handed to me like I had just picked up the game. Nothing I knew or had learned in all the time I had been playing it seemed to matter. Wave dashing was this new dimension of play that just eclipsed the whole of my ability.
I played more games against the same guys, trying to compensate. Nothing - I was completely, utterly, owned.

That sucked. Knowing I couldn't possibly learn to do it in time for that to be meaningful, I just gave up. Wanting to play Melee only to be good, I just didn't have the heart to play it anymore - I'd know I'd always suck.

And the thing is, I thought, I should have lost by something proportional to the difference in effort between us, me and these guys. But like I said, I lost like I wasn't even playing.
Maybe that's the 'gap' Sakurai meant.

I do not miss wavedashing in the slightest.

L-canceling, crouch canceling, relevant short-hopping, and HITSTUN? Those I want back.

 

[Firus]

Destroy other series, Masahiro Sakurai. Leave mine to me.

Agreed, I can't believe that a couple of months ago, I was upset about Sakurai possibly not working on another Smash Bros. Mostly because it might mean there wouldn't be another one, but in any case, I can't believe I thought that.

Now that I realize that Sakurai is going to burn Smash Bros to the ground, I'm praying to God that he goes away.

 

[arrowhead]

That sucked. Knowing I couldn't possibly learn to do it in time for that to be meaningful, I just gave up. Wanting to play Melee only to be good, I just didn't have the heart to play it anymore - I'd know I'd always suck.

And the thing is, I thought, I should have lost by something proportional to the difference in effort between us, me and these guys. But like I said, I lost like I wasn't even playing.
Maybe that's the 'gap' Sakurai meant.

and this is exactly what differentiates the competitive players from the casual players. competitive players don't care how much they lose. we play to win, but we also play to improve. and if you don't have the drive to practice and gain experience, you SHOULD lose.

casual gamers who care about losing shouldn't be playing against competitive gamers anyways

I'm praying to God that he goes away.

lololol

 

[REDFIELD246]

Would anyone mind posting the entire interview? It seems interesting, and has seemed to fuel bitterness towards Sakurai. Just curious.

 

[Nasanieru]

Would anyone mind posting the entire interview? It seems interesting, and has seemed to fuel bitterness towards Sakurai. Just curious.

I second this! Would someone please post the whole interview please?

 

[The Executive]

competitive players...play to win, but we also play to improve...if you don't have the drive to practice and gain experience, you SHOULD lose.
casual gamers who care about losing shouldn't be playing against competitive gamers anyways

What if you have the drive to practice and gain experience, but the actual ceiling for your potential is less than someone else's? What if this person accomplishes more by doing less due to innate talent? If you get schooled by someone who has put less time into the game but was better off to start with whereas you worked more than he did but are at a lower level, and to people who watched it looked like you 'sucked' in comparison, did you deserve to lose?

Note: I know this deviates from what you originally responded to, but I'm curious as to how you'll respond.

 

[Shaman]

legally speaking they technically shouldn't post a magazine article on teh interwebs it are Piratezy!!!!11

with that said, the article hasn't spawned ill will towards sakurai, his being a dumb *** Scrub has, and its been in existence allot longer than this thread.

lol 100th post

 

[SmashChu]

Well, the thing is, wavedashing didn't make Melee an unfair game.

But it gave "higher level" players an advantage. Especially with online (which was developed for ease and fun).

 

[EternalCrusade]

Why is this in the brawl discussion?

Anyways, of course they knew about wavedashing in melee, it was in the game's code, but where did you get your effed up definition of a glitch? A glitch is any error, malfunction, or problem within a machine or plan. The only reason they didnt take wavedashing out is because it would have messed up the rest of the game's code too much and it would have been too difficult to fix within their deadline, and they didn't think players could or would abuse it very much. Trust me when I say, they didnt purposly program in a way to manipulate the game's physics just for us lucky competitive players, they did not sit around and think "you know what...lets make it so that when you short hop, and then air dodges diognally into the ground right away, you'll slide for some reason...yea thats a good one, write that down..." stop thinking that, its just stupid...

and seriously why is this in the brawl discussion? does no one read the melee discussion anymore? how sad

 

[RyjinX]

Wow, sakurai trying to cover his tracks. If wavedashing was intended, why isn't it in brawl?

 

[Ulevo]

I would just like to remark that I played Melee constantly and competitively from the time it was released until about a year ago. I did everything I could to become better at the game.

However, I had never thought to seek vids of matches on the interwebs. When I first encountered a pair of friendly but hardcore gamers a year ago, I took up a controller and had a game.
To put it frankly, wavedashing rocked my socks.

But here's the thing I could never get over: I got OWNED. I got REAMED. I had my *** handed to me like I had just picked up the game. Nothing I knew or had learned in all the time I had been playing it seemed to matter. Wave dashing was this new dimension of play that just eclipsed the whole of my ability.
I played more games against the same guys, trying to compensate. Nothing - I was completely, utterly, owned.

That sucked. Knowing I couldn't possibly learn to do it in time for that to be meaningful, I just gave up. Wanting to play Melee only to be good, I just didn't have the heart to play it anymore - I'd know I'd always suck.

And the thing is, I thought, I should have lost by something proportional to the difference in effort between us, me and these guys. But like I said, I lost like I wasn't even playing.
Maybe that's the 'gap' Sakurai meant.

My apologies for reigning down on your personal historical insight on how Wavedashing ruined your experience, but Wavedashing is a tool. Wavedashing is not a Smash Ball, or an instant win button. The ability to use a tool within Smash Bros and the mental strategy on how to apply it are a totally different concept. Your socks weren't rocked because those players could Wavedash, and you couldn't. Even if you knew how to do it in theory AND practice, you may not have been able to apply it in a similar way, or rather, an effective way while playing. They were simply better than you.

We can take a less complicated example (not that pressing two buttons plus DI is difficult) into account. Shield Grabbing is a rather simple, yet exceptionally useful tool or technique, when applied appropriately. It is not hard to hold the R trigger and press A when an opponent is within grabbing distance, and yet the uses may be the difference between a win and a loss. However, it is up to the players mental influence to use Shield Grabbing to his or her advantage. If it is just spammed, it will not better you in any fashion. That is the truth of any function within Melee, or even Brawl. If you do any move carelessly, your results will be minimal, as well as consequential, regardless of how simplistic or complex the technique or move at hand is. The reverse is just as true.

In this circumstance, it may be possible that they were also L-Canceling, Shield Grabbing, and using other advanced techniques you were not aware of during play. But to assume you were unaware of how to do them yourself or that they used them against you to win is arbitrary anyway.

 

[The Executive]

Wow, sakurai trying to cover his tracks. If wavedashing was intended, why isn't it in brawl?

FUN IS NOT INTENDED FOR BRAWL.

NO ADVANCED PLAY!

NO REWARDING COMPETITIVENESS!

NO NON-GIMPED FINAL DESTINATION!

FINAL MILKING OF YOUR WALLETS...ATION!

 

[EternalCrusade]

FUN IS NOT INTENDED FOR BRAWL.

NO ADVANCED PLAY!

NO REWARDING COMPETITIVENESS!

NO NON-GIMPED FINAL DESTINATION!

FINAL MILKING OF YOUR WALLETS...ATION!

you are so dumb it hurts

and if you cant at least have fun with brawl then there is something wrong with you, most people who like melee better is only because they like melee's competitiveness better, but they still have fun with brawl

 

[The Executive]

you are so dumb it hurts

Internet anonymity =/= License to indiscriminately insult people. Be considerate to others or I will bite your torso and give you a disease. (bonus pts. for what movie that line's from)

if you cant at least have fun with brawl then there is something wrong with you

I forgot to add the <black fire of hell>flaming</black fire of hell> sarcasm tag. When it comes standard you forget not everyone sees it.

most people who like melee better is only because they like melee's competitiveness better, but they still have fun with brawl

I dunno. M2K seems pretty down on it.

My only problem with Brawl would be the purposeful removal of higher-level play attributes by the creator. I still play daily. I still convene with people at every possible opportunity to play. It's still the only console game I've played since March 9th, not counting the 15 mins. I failed at Melee and it's horrific Jupiter-esque gravity. I just miss my L-canceling and hitstun. Those are the only missing attributes that would make it a perfect successor to SSB64. Then again, it's not SSB64, nor is it meant to be. It is what it is, and I accept that.

 

[EternalCrusade]

Internet anonymity =/= License to indiscriminately insult people. Be considerate to others or I will bite your torso and give you a disease. (bonus pts. for what movie that line's from)

Indeed you are absolutely right sir, and I do apoligize, but unfortunantly I dont know what movie its from >_>

My only problem with Brawl would be the purposeful removal of higher-level play attributes by the creator. I still play daily. I still convene with people at every possible opportunity to play. It's still the only console game I've played since March 9th, not counting the 15 mins. I failed at Melee and it's horrific Jupiter-esque gravity. I just miss my L-canceling and hitstun. Those are the only missing attributes that would make it a perfect successor to SSB64. Then again, it's not SSB64, nor is it meant to be. It is what it is, and I accept that.

Well then I can surely respect that, you seem to be a much more reasonable person than I had originally thought, but trust me when I say, just give Brawl some time learn new tactics and whatnot and sure enough you'll see that there IS still a big difference between the higher level players and the lower level players/casuals. I gaurantee it

 

[The Executive]

Indeed you are absolutely right sir, and I do apoligize, but unfortunantly I dont know what movie its from >_>

It's a line from a Mastodon track on the Aqua Teen Hunger Force movie. Best non sequitur film of this decade.

Well then I can surely respect that, you seem to be a much more reasonable person than I had originally thought, but trust me when I say, just give Brawl some time learn new tactics and whatnot and sure enough you'll see that there IS still a big difference between the higher level players and the lower level players/casuals. I gaurantee it

**** well better be. I'm not investing all this time into a game for the metagame to devolve into petty shield camping like some people fear.

 

[EternalCrusade]

**** well better be. I'm not investing all this time into a game for the metagame to devolve into petty shield camping like some people fear

Dont worry, that'll never happen

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Wow he is full of ****.. it took us til 2003 to implement WaveDashing into competative play.. and he's trying to tell us they "found" it during testing...

*Pulls Out BS Detector*

BEEP BEEP

*BS Detected*

 

[WolfCypher]

Wave Dashing in Melee was not intentional. Intentional means it was something they purposely put in Melee. Instead, it was something they eventually came across, and decided "let's keep it in (Melee)". It was an accident that Sakurai felt would not turn into a huge thing (silly him).

WD was not put in Melee intentionally, it was KEPT in Melee intentionally.

 

[RyjinX]

FUN IS NOT INTENDED FOR BRAWL.

NO ADVANCED PLAY!

NO REWARDING COMPETITIVENESS!

NO NON-GIMPED FINAL DESTINATION!

FINAL MILKING OF YOUR WALLETS...ATION!

If you weren't completely slow, you'd notice what I said was a joke. Sakurai is just trying to make it seem like he's a genius(He still kind of is, we all love smash) and secretly put in Wavedashing and knew all about it, yet people who were studying the game like crazy even since 2001 didn't discover it until 2003? If it was such an important feature would it not have been in the instruction manual?

 

[BlackPanther]

Lol funny a lot of you guys are still sayin that it's a glitch or unintentional. For one thing if you have plenty of opportunities to take it out of the game and you don't, How is that not intentional? They could have easily just said, "Ok let's not make it so they can slide on the ground from an airdodge." But they didn't so that doesn't make it a glitch then them knowing about it how to do it means they could have figured out it's uses and said ok let's just take it out but they didn't so it's intentional, not directly intentional but it's still intentional because they had the opportunity to take it out but they didn't there's no denying it and if you're still denying it you are absolutely ******** I don't care who you are.

 

[House M.D.]

sakurai said that the wavedashing 'in or out?' decision wasn't a big deal. he has no grasp on high level melee play.

 

[House M.D.]

Wow he is full of ****.. it took us til 2003 to implement WaveDashing into competative play.. and he's trying to tell us they "found" it during testing...

*Pulls Out BS Detector*

BEEP BEEP

*BS Detected*

you're right. it took until 2003 to implement it. but to discover it is not very hard. a priori, it isn't clear that it would be that useful, and any good professional game tester should be expected to have tested what happens when you air dodge into the ground. realizing that it is useful should (and did) take longer.

sorry for double post.

 

[cwjalex]

and this is exactly what differentiates the competitive players from the casual players. competitive players don't care how much they lose. we play to win, but we also play to improve. and if you don't have the drive to practice and gain experience, you SHOULD lose.
l

People say it is unfair that the casual gamer "had no chance" against a competitive gamer that knew these techniques. This is simply an excuse for those incapable or unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually get better at the game. Life is full of imbalance, get over it. Some are born smarter, more capable, and succeed more than others, do you complain that they studied more or worked harder than you?

Before I played someone who knew advanced techs I thought I was amazing because I would beat my circle of friends. When I finally did play a falco who knew wavedashing and l-cancelling he 4 stocked me every single game and you know what?...I loved it. I loved having someone who could challenge me and actually push me to improve. I eventually practiced enough until it was me that was 4 stocking him.

Wavedashing does not give you a considerable advantage over someone that does not. The people who decide to use wavedashing are just coincidentally more dedicated to the game and that is the reason they are much better. I can beat all my friends just as bad without any advanced techniques and they wavedash and l-cancel fine.

 

[BlackPanther]

People say it is unfair that the casual gamer "had no chance" against a competitive gamer that knew these techniques. This is simply an excuse for those incapable or unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually get better at the game. Life is full of imbalance, get over it. Some are born smarter, more capable, and succeed more than others, do you complain that they studied more or worked harder than you?

Before I played someone who knew advanced techs I thought I was amazing because I would beat my circle of friends. When I finally did play a falco who knew wavedashing and l-cancelling he 4 stocked me every single game and you know what?...I loved it. I loved having someone who could challenge me and actually push me to improve. I eventually practiced enough until it was me that was 4 stocking him.

Wavedashing does not give you a considerable advantage over someone that does not. The people who decide to use wavedashing are just coincidentally more dedicated to the game and that is the reason they are much better. I can beat all my friends just as bad without any advanced techniques and they wavedash and l-cancel fine.

It's sad that not all people feel that way. And I think arrowhead is on our side it seems like you were arguing against what he said lol.

 

[joeysmash]

who really cares anymore. we have brawl it has no WD, get over it. Whining about over the internet is not going to bring it back. Debate is over.

 

[Firus]

Would anyone mind posting the entire interview? It seems interesting, and has seemed to fuel bitterness towards Sakurai. Just curious.

As Shaman said, posting the entire article would be illegal.
Plus, the whole article hasn't necessarily fueled bitterness towards Sakurai. But I'll summarize the parts that could do that, in theory.

Hm...Sakurai mentions that Final Smashes are nice because you could be winning the entire match only to lose in a single second. More of his enabling noobs to win.

He explains that when choosing characters, he didn't want to have all of one series, and when looking at Animal Crossing and Nintendogs, they "don't lend themselves to fighting", so they just decided not to include them. Hm...Game & Watch? ROB? Olimar? None of those naturally lend themselves that way, but they made them into that.

Sakurai says that he thinks that, if they tried, they may have been able to fit Ridley in, but "that would probably be pretty impossible." is what he says. This from the guy who fit ROB into a game.

He says Sonic was put in due to high demand from fans, so unlike Snake, he wasn't a given.

And, as happens in any of these kinds of interviews, he avoids questions like which characters he's best with, what match types are fun, etc. etc.

Everything else is pretty much just information, wouldn't really fuel anger towards him. If you want to read the whole article, you can probably go down to Barnes & Noble or Borders and pick up the NP and just read that article.

 

[Rash]

Wavedashing is the least important exploit in the game.

People need to get over this whole "Sakurai dumbed down Brawl" thing already.

 

[Firus]

Lol funny a lot of you guys are still sayin that it's a glitch or unintentional. For one thing if you have plenty of opportunities to take it out of the game and you don't, How is that not intentional? They could have easily just said, "Ok let's not make it so they can slide on the ground from an airdodge." But they didn't so that doesn't make it a glitch then them knowing about it how to do it means they could have figured out it's uses and said ok let's just take it out but they didn't so it's intentional, not directly intentional but it's still intentional because they had the opportunity to take it out but they didn't there's no denying it and if you're still denying it you are absolutely ******** I don't care who you are.

If Sakurai didn't specifically put it into the game, it's not intentional. Just because he noticed it doesn't mean he woke up one day and said "Hey, let's make it so people can slide on the ground using an airdodge!" It means they discovered that you can slide against the ground, which was a complete accident, they didn't specifically put it in, but didn't think much of it, and thus didn't remove it.

By "unintentional" and "glitch" people mean it wasn't supposed to happen, but it was kept in because they thought it was harmless.

They're basically saying exactly what you are, just using different wording, and being a little more technical with their use of wording. They intentionally kept wavedashing in the game, they unintentionally put it there in the first place. Glitch isn't exactly the right word, since it's not like the glitch of falling through Castle Siege or Warioware, it's an exploit.

See? They're not arguing with the OP, they're just saying that the choice of words was poor.

 

[Gill]

They intentionally LEFT it in the game. They noticed it and they didn't take it out. It wasn't done on purpose.

I say we ban anybody who tries to play this semantics game.

 

[Firus]

I say we ban anybody who tries to play this semantics game.

I'm pretty sure they're not trying to play any games or circumvent the reality that wavedashing was kept in on purpose, they're just arguing with the word choice.

At least that's what I got out of it.

 

[ripman3]

It's still an unintentional glitch. Just one that was intentionally left in. The debates will still rage.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Wavedashing is not a glitch, it's an exploit. It took me FOREVER to realize that, but it's the cold hard truth! A glitch is somehting that defies the physics of a game that was not intended by the creator (i.e. accessing glitch world in Super Mario Bros). Wavedashing is exploiting Melee's physics engine.

-1 WORLD IS NOT A GLITCH IT IS AN EXPLOIT YOU STUPID IDIOT.

God.