Dispute Ended: New Sakurai intervew - Wavedashing was intentional

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LLDL

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#1
Go to page 62 of your new May issue of Nintendo Power and read the second paragraph, which says...

Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ablility to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.


Well guys, there you have it. The reason I posted this is because of one reason. It's not the fact that they took out wavedashing for the purpose of making it fair. We all knew that from the begining and I accepted it a week or two after playing Brawl. No, it's because I can now say "I told you so" to all of you who didn't have faith in Sakurai, and thought that it was a "CHEAP MOVE, GLITCH, EXPLOT, HAX0R" HAHAHAHHAHAHA :laugh:

A glitch is considered: Anything in a game or programs code that was unintentional after the release of that product. So, since they knew about it in the development of Melee, they INTENTIONALLY put that feature in the game. Give him some credit for once people. Good night, it's over, you can all now get on with your lives.:p
 

LLDL

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#4
Well, the thing is, wavedashing didn't make Melee an unfair game.
Of course it didn't. I know people, who can wavedash, and they suck.
Wavedashing is easy, if you can't do it, you can't fathom the concept of pressing 2 buttons consecutively, with some directional input. The point i was getting at, was the fact that they actually DID intend for it to be in Melee.
 
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#5
Well, the thing is, wavedashing didn't make Melee an unfair game.
If you just got your friend into Melee, and you're a pro, he will never win. And he won't get better, because he'll never really have a chance to try.

It was unfair to beginners is what Sakurai means.

I don't agree myself, there should be a gap. A big gap. But I'm not the dev here.
 
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#7
We've all known for a long time that it was an exploit. Glitch and exploits are two very different things. They knew it was in there and possible, but they didn't intend for it to be used how it was.

I'd say it's more important that this proves that they did purposely remove it. People have argued that it was only gone as a side effect of taking out Direction Dodging. This shows that it was a conscious decision to remove it...
 

Best101

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#9
If you just got your friend into Melee, and you're a pro, he will never win. And he won't get better, because he'll never really have a chance to try.

It was unfair to beginners is what Sakurai means.

I don't agree myself, there should be a gap. A big gap. But I'm not the dev here.
What do you expect to happen when you are new to something and then play/challenge someone who has been doing the thing for years. 99.99% of the time the beginner will lose.

Now it would be pretty messed up if you have been playing Brawl for a few years, and then some random friend of yours play it for 3 days and is able to beat you consecutively. And after a while you two are on an even playing field.

And I get better when I lose a lot to a bunch of good players. You can't get better if you win all the time or if you are the best. That's just how I improve in anything, but you may get better by just winning everything
 

LLDL

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#10
We've all known for a long time that it was an exploit. Glitch and exploits are two very different things. They knew it was in there and possible, but they didn't intend for it to be used how it was.

I'd say it's more important that this proves that they did purposely remove it. People have argued that it was only gone as a side effect of taking out Direction Dodging. This shows that it was a conscious decision to remove it...
agreed, I was thinking about that earlier, but my main thoughts were "Was wavedashing... a fluke? An incredible technique like that was implemented by accident and the creators didn't even know it?!!?" But now i feel better about that.
 

Jack Kieser

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#11
Um... just for the record... they knew about it / were aware of it =/= intentional. Intentional would be if they had purposefully programmed SH'ing and Air Dodges they way they did in order to create the exploit we would later call wavedashing. According to that interview, this wasn't the case; they had found it in playtesting and went 'Hmm, that's interesting.' Apparently, Sak didn't anticipate what we would do with WD'ing, or else (as evidenced by what he did with Brawl) he would have taken it out of Melee.

So, yeah. It still wasn't intentional. For the record.
 

R i p

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#12
I don't know, sounds like he's trying to cover up his mistake... while pushing his "Get your mom to play Brawl" advertisement campaign.
 

billywill

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#13
I was very disappointed in the whole interview with Sakurai in NP, some of the things Sakurai said made me very sad
 
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#14
And the noobs lose another arguement.

This, along with the whole "wavedash was discovered withing th first few weeks" thing is one of the best revelations about Melee I've had.
 
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#15
Of course it didn't. I know people, who can wavedash, and they suck.
Wavedashing is easy, if you can't do it, you can't fathom the concept of pressing 2 buttons consecutively, with some directional input. The point i was getting at, was the fact that they actually DID intend for it to be in Melee.
Wavedashing is only easy after you have the timing down for the character you're trying to do it with. Also doing it does not require intelligence at all.
 
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#19
HAHAHAHAHA! This is awesome. Not only is it now absolutely undeniable that Brawl was purposefully dumbed down to have more skill balance but also like the OP said, wavedashing is not a glitch! HAHAHAHA!

Its about ****ing time this was dealt with.
 

LLDL

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#20
HAHAHAHAHA! This is awesome. Not only is it now absolutely undeniable that Brawl was purposefully dumbed down to have more skill balance but also like the OP said, wavedashing is not a glitch! HAHAHAHA!

Its about ****ing time this was dealt with.
my point exactly
 
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#23
Sure reminds me of snaking being removed in the development of MKWii. Sometimes, this concept of "everybody can play" can really be a stupid idea to change for a game/game series that's mostly doing good as it is.
 

Chrono Centaur

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#25
So uhh, just because they found it doesn't mean it wasn't a glitch, it was left in there, yes, but its still a glitch in the game. It's not something the devs actually, intentionally programmed in there.
 
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#26
How did they remove snaking? Can you still mini-turbo? I hope so
You can still do mini-turbo, but from what I heard from a GT preview movie of MKWii, they removed snaking during the development, but will still keep in mini-turbo. However, there are better way to boost now (tricking in the air, being "slick" with the bike, etc).
 

LouisLeGros

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#27
So uhh, just because they found it doesn't mean it wasn't a glitch, it was left in there, yes, but its still a glitch in the game. It's not something the devs actually, intentionally programmed in there.
they programed in air dodge -> ground = slide

It may not have been used like they thought it would be, but it is not a glitch and the developer was very aware of this.



edit:
in regards to snaking. "Snaking" has been in mario kart for a long time... that is just a recent name for it. The thing about snaking is if it is worthwhile to do it. Will the extra distance traveled through the zig zaging be over come by the speed boost that is recieved. If it isn't then there is no poin to snake. In Mario Kart DS it was worthwhile, in Mario Kart Wii it looks like they are not going to make it be worthwhile.
 

Best101

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#28
So uhh, just because they found it doesn't mean it wasn't a glitch, it was left in there, yes, but its still a glitch in the game. It's not something the devs actually, intentionally programmed in there.
The devs had many opportunities to take out Wavedashing with the other 2 versions of Melee (which were made to take out some glitches and maybe some other things I may not know about). I think I have the second version of Melee and I still can wavedash in it.

You can still do mini-turbo, but from what I heard from a GT preview movie of MKWii, they removed snaking during the development, but will still keep in mini-turbo. However, there are better way to boost now (tricking in the air, being "slick" with the bike, etc).
Sounds good, a lot better than what had happened to Brawl.
 

Wyvern

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#29
There's a big difference between a developer saying "Huh, you slide a little when you airdodge into the ground. Whatever, I guess that's okay" and a developer deliberately balancing the entire cast around the assumption that future players would notice such an irregularity and turn it into a major combat technique. The latter is the only thing that was ever really relevant in the "was it intentional" debate, so this doesn't really change anything. The semantics of "glitch/no glitch" were meaningless to begin with.

Also, there were far more important reasons to remove wavedashing besides some general dumbing down of the game. It's way more complicated than that. It would have been impossible to adequately balance the characters with wavedashing in mind, for example...at least with the properties it had in Melee.
 

ROOOOY!

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#31
HOORAY FOR THE MOST OVER RATED AT REMOVAL!
God...what's so great about it, you slide to the side minimally. BEST. THING. EVAR D:
I can wave-dash, but I'm not exactly a pro.
 

Shaman

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#33
lol cool, doesn't change much, anyone with the simplest understanding of programing knew it was an exploit anyways, so who really gives a ****, it was useful, and people used it, newbs ***** cuz they couldn't, and if they didn't feel so entitled to be good, sakurai wouldn't have to dumb down games, and we wouldn't have tedious threads on the boards.

[EDIT:] not that it will matter to anyone, but i say that as someone who was pretty bad at melee, i lost almost perpetually to my more skilled friends for the better part of a year, and i wouldn't trade that time for all the easy wins in the world, especially since by and large i'm much more skilled than they are at brawl.
 
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#34
There's a big difference between a developer saying "Huh, you slide a little when you airdodge into the ground. Whatever, I guess that's okay" and a developer deliberately balancing the entire cast around the assumption that future players would notice such an irregularity and turn it into a major combat technique. The latter is the only thing that was ever really relevant in the "was it intentional" debate, so this doesn't really change anything. The semantics of "glitch/no glitch" were meaningless to begin with.

Also, there were far more important reasons to remove wavedashing besides some general dumbing down of the game. It's way more complicated than that. It would have been impossible to adequately balance the characters with wavedashing in mind, for example...at least with the properties it had in Melee.
/thread

10 charizards
 

Firus

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#35
wow this makes me sad :(

What kind of twisted logic is "I dont want there to be a huge gap between the people that devote themselves to the game and the people that have never played before"? Thats just ridiculous.
I agree.

How sad is it that he puts in random things like items, stage hazards, and tripping just so the noobs who are completely horrible at the game can win? I love 2/3 of those (tripping being the exception) but to put them in so the noobs can win? If you put effort in, there should be a gap between you and someone who just picked up the game.

This "everyone should be playing the games" attitude Nintendo has now is going to be the death of them, the hardcore gamers are going to get sick of this. They keep trying to make it too easy to get into the game, so they screw with the franchise. I love the Wii, but I got it because it's a Nintendo system, not because it "defies the age barrier" and all that idiocy.

/rant
 

Mikau et al

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#36
Go to page 62 of your new May issue of Nintendo Power and read the second paragraph, which says...

Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ablility to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.


Well guys, there you have it. The reason I posted this is because of one reason. It's not the fact that they took out wavedashing for the purpose of making it fair. We all knew that from the begining and I accepted it a week or two after playing Brawl. No, it's because I can now say "I told you so" to all of you who didn't have faith in Sakurai, and thought that it was a "CHEAP MOVE, GLITCH, EXPLOT, HAX0R" HAHAHAHHAHAHA :laugh:

A glitch is considered: Anything in a game or programs code that was unintentional after the release of that product. So, since they knew about it in the development of Melee, they INTENTIONALLY put that feature in the game. Give him some credit for once people. Good night, it's over, you can all now get on with your lives.:p
Not that I disagree with you, but is that definition valid? I think you're giving Sakurai too much credit. Yes, he did intentionally keep the glitch in the game upon discovering it, but he didn't intentionally put it there in the first place. Glitches would be unintentional mistakes in the game's programming, which this qualifies. The fact that it was kept in makes it an "intentional" glitch, maybe, but a glitch nonetheless.

But I do agree that according to the interview, Sakurai meant for players to use it--sorry n00bs, you are officially (pwned)^3. Go and ***** about something else you're too stupid to do. Sorry, that was mean. Nm, I think it's sort of equal now. I should just shut up now...
 

Nasanieru

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#38
Geez this is great but it sucks at the same time.

Sakurai says that it was supposed to be in. If they didn't want it to be used in-game they would have taken it out, making wavedashing an official (debatable) technique. Now all the players who complain to me about using WD have no arguement, hahahahaha ;)

For Brawl, however, to me this is like a killing blow for its competitive value. I'm not talking about the removal of the WD alone, but everything about Brawl is almost anti-competitive (Go to Gimpy and Scar's theads for intelligent info). A veteran in the game should be able to **** when fighting one who has only been playing for a short time.

Smash shouldn't be treated like Mario Party, but Brawl makes it seem like thats the way Nintendo wants it. //
 

Zek

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#39
What Sakurai said was that they were aware of it. He was probably just talking about the ability to airdodge into the ground, not actually use that for combat. More importantly, he did not say that it was intentional. In other words, it's a glitch they just didn't think was important enough to fix. Happens all the time.
 
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