Discussion Points on Latest Set

[The Cape]

My opinions as follows:

Bowser U tilt shift?
- This does not even exist, we need to either rework it or remove it completely.

Yoshi side B hitbox?
- Curious as to why the hitbox was not added in with the speed up?

Link damage changes? (dash attack, fair, etc)
- dash attack and fair were both nerfed in damage, but I havent seen a reason or anything on the change list

Mario Fair speed up (needs reworked)
- Fixing now with PSA. Will also fix ALR problem (see below)

Sonic U smash:
- Too much cool down

Pit spike gone?
- add back in?


Few possible ideas:

Zelda and PT transform changes (Ryoko)
Ivysaur = "regular grab, not tether"
Link bombs, ZSS suit parts?
Peach float cancels and landing lag on shffls?
Ness changes direction of choice when he hits a wall?
Lucas zair hitbox in?
Ike less KBG on D throw?
Snake F tilt range change (second hit)?
Revert Kirby F smash KB change, give it a bit more cooldown and less KBG on bair?
DK upB go backwards on ground
Bowser have DK upB momentum in the air
Fix for CSS that allows ZSS to stay selected
Bowser grab release needs put back in
DDD F smash sourspot
Multi use Pit upB
Remove Lucario soft landing speed up:
- You can aim up a bit and auto cancel a nair almost as fast and it requires more skill

Mario fair:
Remove these lines:
Mario fair: All hitboxes are now 3 frames instead of 1,3,2
00368063 40000000
00128063 3F800000
000F8063 3F2AAA3A
000C8063 3F800000
000B8063 3EAAAA3A
00028063 3F800000
00008063 40000000

Mario uair change:
Mario uair
hb1: (frame 1)
45 angle, 31 base, 80 growth
hb2: (frame 2)
68 angle, 29 base, 70 growth
hb3: (frame 3)
90 angle, 35 base, 80 growth
hb4: (frame 4)
112 angle, 29 base, 60 growth, -1 damage
hb5: (frames 5-6)
135 angle, 27 base, 60 growth, -1 damage

- Move has a six frame duration, this will give him five seperate hitboxes that will operate independantly. This allows Mario to have more control over his uair juggles and edgeguards and brings more depth to the table (idea taken from Melee)

Why not?
DDD:
F smash sour hit: Trips; 10x size
20051E64 0005002C
051E6408 00500000
FFFFFFFF 41200000

 

[Team Giza]

I would much rather have Dedede's secondary minion throw be changed as a buff for him. It would really fit his offensive momentum game and make minion positioning more important which would make matches more interesting and fun to match.

This only has effect when he throws minions that are already on the field;
Tosses on frame 8 instead of 16.
20000129 3FCCCCCD

I forgot the frame data on this, but I believe it went on for at least 30 more frames after the throw so it cuts it down to somewhere around 9-12 frames.
20100129 40400000

Minions are fairly easy for opponents to get rid of so its not a huge buff. It just allows him to get rewards from having minions already on the field and punish opponents who didn't take advantage of oppurtunities to get rid of them.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Revert Kirby F smash KB change, give it a bit more cooldown and less KBG on bair?

I don't think Kirby needs nerfs on either of these moves, and especially not more cooldown on fsmash. It'd be a huge difference to make that punishable and let him get combo'd.

I'll be reworking the Usmash speed-up along with the spike, but the less winddown is needed for follow-ups. I could give it more start-up time though.

 

[Revven]

DK upB go backwards on ground

This I am not dead set on yet, it's more or less a change only I am going to try and do and experiment with. If it proves to be way too good for DK, I'm not going to advocate putting it in. In fact, I'm not going to advocate it at all yet until I see DK start to fall down the charts. DK is a very solid character right now and as far as I am concerned, he won't need this unless he starts falling back a bit due to other character's meta games getting more development or overall are just better than DK.

In other words, it's a future buff to finish DK if and when he needs it. It's mostly just to get it to work right now and save it for a later date.

 

[The Cape]

Pit D tilt fix, really nice (thanks Andarel):

http://www.mediafire.com/?mw5w5dmnegk

Mario fixes (thanks Naucitos): Fair speed fix and uair hitboxes
http://naucitos.colinjf.com/capefitmario+.pac

I have the stats on it all if you want it. plz test and update the set.

 

[goodoldganon]

I HATE doing the red but there is just too much to comment on, so ya. It's all in red.

My opinions as follows:

Bowser U tilt shift?
- This does not even exist, we need to either rework it or remove it completely.

I'm unsure what I wrong, but I'm not seeing it either

Yoshi side B hitbox?
- Curious as to why the hitbox was not added in with the speed up?

Cause he doesn't need it...

Link damage changes? (dash attack, fair, etc)
- dash attack and fair were both nerfed in damage, but I havent seen a reason or anything on the change list

Agreed

Mario Fair speed up (needs reworked)
- Fixing now with PSA. Will also fix ALR problem (see below)

Sonic U smash:
- Too much cool down

Not really, at least not until u-smash makes a return, if it does.

Pit spike gone?
- add back in?

I don't get this either. I thought we were tweaking it.

Few possible ideas:

Zelda and PT transform changes (Ryoko)
No no no no, there is a slew of balance reasons first of as well as other reasons. You should not get control of two/three different characters with all their strengths and weaknesses without some sort of downside. The first is a timer on transform and PKMN Trainer gets the extra 'handicap' of death switching cause he has a third character.

Ivysaur = "regular grab, not tether"
You mean so she can grab out of hitstun? If that is how we fixed the problem then sure, but we can't open Ivy in PSA...

Link bombs, ZSS suit parts?
Do we still think Link needs help? I think he's solid and set KB bombs seem a little 'E-Z mode' for a decently spammable projectile (when combined with arrows and boomerang). I've always been down for removing the suit parts since it changes the entire first stock. Then again I wouldn't be against adjusting their KB instead.

Peach float cancels and landing lag on shffls?
That has always been a strength of Peach's game. It wasn't gamebreaking in Melee, it won't be here.

Ness changes direction of choice when he hits a wall?
I'm all for seeing if it's fixable. I haven't used Ness recently but from what I have heard he sounds really solid. Does he need a recovery fix? Diddy mains manage. It seems like a change to hold people's hands.

Lucas zair hitbox in?
I don't see why we would want this or how it would really effect Lucas. Last I played Lucas still seemed decent but above all else it just doesn't seem needed. The range on the Snake is abysmal. I really don't understand what good the z-air would do for him. I think it's a 'grass is always greener' thing and Lucas mains think that because it's so great for Link and Samus it would have to be great for Lucas.

Ike less KBG on D throw?
No, no, no, no NO! Dark Sonic gave reasoning why in the Ike thread. We don't need to hold Ike's hand on getting a KO.

Snake F tilt range change (second hit)?
I'm willing to work with something. I'll try and cook something up late tonight or tomorrow.

Revert Kirby F smash KB change, give it a bit more cooldown and less KBG on bair?
Kirby is fine as he is. The KB nerf more than balanced him and he feels great as he is now.

DK upB go backwards on ground
I guess I don't see why not... But that's not really a good reason. I leave it up to SMK. Seem unnecessary though.

Bowser have DK upB momentum in the air
Yes please. I was sad the Falcon/Dorf fix couldn't be applied to Bowser.

Fix for CSS that allows ZSS to stay selected
A small thing, but it's the little things that keep it professional.

Bowser grab release needs put back in
He has frame advantage right now doesn't he? I know he doesn't need the vBrawl release combos, but I thought we agreed that keeping Bowser as the only release character was a decent plan.

DDD F smash sourspot
What about it? Don't hit with the sour spot

Multi use Pit upB
Why was it ever removed?

Remove Lucario soft landing speed up:
- You can aim up a bit and auto cancel a nair almost as fast and it requires more skill
Agreed

Mario fair:
Remove these lines:
Mario fair: All hitboxes are now 3 frames instead of 1,3,2
00368063 40000000
00128063 3F800000
000F8063 3F2AAA3A
000C8063 3F800000
000B8063 3EAAAA3A
00028063 3F800000
00008063 40000000

Mario uair change:
Mario uair
hb1: (frame 1)
45 angle, 31 base, 80 growth
hb2: (frame 2)
68 angle, 29 base, 70 growth
hb3: (frame 3)
90 angle, 35 base, 80 growth
hb4: (frame 4)
112 angle, 29 base, 60 growth, -1 damage
hb5: (frames 5-6)
135 angle, 27 base, 60 growth, -1 damage

- Move has a six frame duration, this will give him five seperate hitboxes that will operate independantly. This allows Mario to have more control over his uair juggles and edgeguards and brings more depth to the table (idea taken from Melee)

Why not?
DDD:
F smash sour hit: Trips; 10x size
20051E64 0005002C
051E6408 00500000
FFFFFFFF 41200000

'Why not' is the worst reasoning ever. Don't hit with the sour spot and you won't have this problem. It's a fluff and annoying change.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda and Sheik's initial transform animation at 0.45x speed, appearance of the other character instant
0D000115 3EE66666
0D00011B 42480000
0E000115 3EE66666
0E00011E 42480000

What this does is prevent random load times from becoming a factor in how you can punish the move, which is silly. The obvious downside is requiring a large opening to use it, any other downtime available to the opponent during the loading phase, and denying yourself an opportunity to chase them if you knocked them away prior to switching. There are no guarantees to whether or not things will go your way when you switch characters, and both have bad matchups that you don't want to force. Instead of requiring a small opening to switch but likely taking a hit for it thanks to lol-loadtimes, you now require a large opening to switch, otherwise you just get hit and won't be able to switch.

PKMT's switch mechanic is entirely different though, and I don't know how to satisfactorily address the random load time with that.

 

[Deleted member]

ok, before I will reaad all these walls, can someone tell me who's "smart" idea it was to release the NTSC version with .pacs instead of codes, while PAL .pacs are different?
now I either gotta cross check every single SFX ID (which is what is different), while I might not even be able to test it (file replacement never worked for me for some stupid reason), or I gotta do everything in codes, which I suppose isn't a .txt of for the NTSC version.

 

[shanus]

If you remove the lucario soft landing speed up, he has huge lag after exitting upB in the air. This makes using the upB as any form of offense is now entirely null.


Pit's upB currently offers no special fall. but as everyone knows, the multiuse upB code was severely buggy and made pit feel he had constant wifi lag even in offline.

 

[The Cape]

Ah ok, double use, I see it now Shanus.

GoG:
- The transformation changes were the speed changes that Ryoko posted
- Bowser grab release is an issue because he still has the vBrawl release combos. I posted the line to taking him back on the same level as others, but we didnt put it in.
- Peach was to make it so that she has no lag on floatcancels but has regular landing lag on shuffls if possible to do. It gives her that "unique" approach and makes her more challenging to play.
- Kirby F smash and bair change makes F smash the better KO move as bair out does it all over the place now. It would be the better overall choice since we can take F smash back to its former glory and then just reduce bair KO power a wee bit.
- Link bombs and ZSS parts were KB changes. Less KBG on the bombs and less base on the suit parts IMO.
- As for the DDD sourspot, the reasoning behind it is the fact that the hammer hits the entirity of FD, but only on the ground. This gives DDD a possible option to approach and on tech chases. It also forces your opponent into the air where they may not have an advantage against DDD. Its something new and interesting that allows a new dimension to DDD;s game.

 

[Magus420]

Bowser U tilt shift?
- This does not even exist, we need to either rework it or remove it completely.

It's shifted under "X" by 0.01666667. This does pretty much nothing. However, any kind of shift that is made needs to be tested and confirmed because even though 20 units is like the size of a custom stage block, the X/Y/Z directions are often scrambled (I believe it depends on the bone id in question). With CF's knee as an example, iirc increasingly negative numbers into the "Y" offset moves it horizontally to the right while facing right, instead of the logical direction of vertically downwards. ~6 units would probably be good for this change. No clue whether the offset that should be used is X/Y/Z or +/- however.

Link damage changes? (dash attack, fair, etc)

Specifics would be helpful.

- dash attack nerfed in damage

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6056/linkdashattack.gif

False.

fair nerfed in damage, but I havent seen a reason or anything on the change list

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/NearGold/5-13-2009%20public/ComprehensiveChangelist.txt

It's been in the changelist since May 13th, lol. It's the 1st slash that's changed. I know nothing about Link in this game, but maybe it now combos really well with the new 40 BKB and only 5 KBG into good stuff and is pretty safe to use so it was reduced in dmg along with it? I have no idea, but it's definitely not a new change.

Pit spike gone?
- add back in?

Looking at the move in PSA now, the 2 inner HBs are the meteor and 2 outer the 80° angle.

The priority of the HBs goes from highest at the tip to the lowest on the inside, and they are also larger on the outside. I would like to reverse this HB priority so hitting the opponent with both sets of HBs would yield the sourspot KB, and it needs to be spaced to hit with the outer half in order to connect the meteor.

http://www.mediafire.com/?0ydnhf2nzmn

D-Tilt (Non-Meteor Hit): Inner 2 hitboxes. Takes priority over the meteor hitboxes if both types connect.
D-Tilt (Meteor Hit): Outer 2 hitboxes. Space it so the outer half of the attack is what hits them to get the meteor hit. [50->40 KBG; 80->64 BKB]

Pit D tilt fix, really nice (thanks Andarel):

http://www.mediafire.com/?mw5w5dmnegk

I do not like this approach. It gives the outer HB the top priority among them, so the sourspot might as well not even exist against most characters since they'd need to be directly ontop of you for it to actually happen. I would suggest using my version instead.

Mario uair change:
Mario uair
hb1: (frame 1)
45 angle, 31 base, 80 growth
hb2: (frame 2)
68 angle, 29 base, 70 growth
hb3: (frame 3)
90 angle, 35 base, 80 growth
hb4: (frame 4)
112 angle, 29 base, 60 growth, -1 damage
hb5: (frames 5-6)
135 angle, 27 base, 60 growth, -1 damage

- Move has a six frame duration, this will give him five seperate hitboxes that will operate independantly. This allows Mario to have more control over his uair juggles and edgeguards and brings more depth to the table (idea taken from Melee)

I don't know what strange version of Melee you've been playing, but his u-air has the same angle throughout the entire move duration (about 50°-55°).

Why not?
DDD:
F smash sour hit: Trips; 10x size
20051E64 0005002C
051E6408 00500000
FFFFFFFF 41200000

Could be interesting.

 

[Team Giza]

Lucas zair hitbox in?

I don't see why we would want this or how it would really effect Lucas. Last I played Lucas still seemed decent but above all else it just doesn't seem needed. The range on the Snake is abysmal. I really don't understand what good the z-air would do for him. I think it's a 'grass is always greener' thing and Lucas mains think that because it's so great for Link and Samus it would have to be great for Lucas.

I actually think this could be very interesting. Does it matter if it has a big effect? I think it would just be something that we could use to make Lucas just a little more unique. Maybe we should fool around with the poison/flower effect and see if we can get a somewhat strong variety of it to appear on the opponent without there being any knockback. Perhaps just a bit of stun, but that might be going to far. I think it would be nice to at least make his zair do something.

 

[shanus]

i think his zair is kind of pointless but i dont actually care. It will always be dwarfed by his fair and nair.

 

[GHNeko]

I seriously think we should work with the moves Lucas has. I'm really against adding in new attacks because we need to set limits. The things that zair would do could easily be done with his other moves. :V

What needs to be accomplished with Lucas doesn't require a new attack to be added.

Also. Snake's tilts are fine. Can we please leave them alone as every character can work around them and deal with Snake fine.

 

[goodoldganon]

i think his zair is kind of pointless but i dont actually care. It will always be dwarfed by his fair and nair.

Exactly, which is why I ask, what is the point? Just seems unneccessary. If it's something they want then I guess so, but it just isn't gonna be really useful.

 

[GHNeko]

It might be something they want.

but again.

LIMITS. WE NEED SOME MORE.

LIMITS > WANTS.

 

[goodoldganon]

Good point. I caved on my morals. Z-air is useless to lucas. It won't add anything. Don't do it.

 

[The Cape]

For the Mario uair, I am almost positive that the move has multiple hitboxes as you can hit them straight up with a certain portion of the move, and the back hit has a decent overall semi spike. The standard uair is nothing like that in Brawl as per my experience with it and this changes helps to accent that before and also bring more depth to the character as the timing and placement of the move becomes a more important part of its use.

 

[Yeroc]

Neko, speaking from a personal standpoint, I'm not against Snake having good tilts. I'm really not. I think they should be awesome moves for damaging, KOing, baiting, or just about whatever else you want to throw at them. And people should be afraid of approaching Snake because of them. But the hitbox locations need to be fixed. It's absurd. Have you looked at the data on them at all? the biggest hitboxes on those moves have an offset of 12. 12. That's entirely not within the confines of Snake's body. It's just stupid. They need to be moved inward. Lots. Hell, give them a bit of a buff too for all I care, but hitboxes that just hang out there where Snake has no fear of retaliation from directly in front is just flawed design through and through.

 

[GHNeko]

Personally, I've gotten used to and accepted Snake's tilts. I deal with them. I find ways around then and I manage to win my fair share against snakes, as most of my losses are last hit matches.

But eh. If majority of WBR sees it's for better, than I really can't do much, though I'd still oppose it through and through.

 

[goodoldganon]

Personally, I've gotten used to and accepted Snake's tilts. I deal with them. I find ways around then and I manage to win my fair share against snakes, as most of my losses are last hit matches.

But eh. If majority of WBR sees it's for better, than I really can't do much, though I'd still oppose it through and through.

Same, but it seems most of the rest (or at least the real vocal ones) want to change his tilts.

 

[Team Giza]

Many people I play with think Snake's tilts need changing. But what is the plans to balance Snake out after this nerf?

 

[Almas]

Snake is lame. That doesn't mean he needs changing. Lame things are part of a good game, even if people fail to accept them as such. The burden of knowing that we can change it if we want makes not changing it harder.

 

[Deleted member]

>_>

so much for PAL love in here.

 

[The Cape]

Ok. Got a few more points I ran into while testing the fixes that Magus is putting out.

Ganon U throw: remove KB changes, give it an IASA
Marth: Remove throw speed changes, give U throw an IASA
Ike U throw IASA frame?

Giving these three an IASA frame gives them the use of a speed up, but in a different way. We can make them all have an IASA for jump only as that would create a new use for them and give them some more possibilities.

Ganon U tilt IASA should only be B moves and jump
- Jab or Sheild = WTF good.

Bowser U tilt
- Still no work (More a reminder for me)

Bowser grab release back to 40 frames
- I made this line, but it should go back in. Bowser still has his advantage of ten frames.

DDD minions have one way KB only (no reverse)
- When we get the chance, I would like to see his minions have special collision properties

Luigi's Mansion pillars take damage together
- Reminder again

Shadow Moses walls have less HP
- Same as above. (Make more stages good?)

Lucas as per discussion with Shell:
Uair: (remove about 5 frames winddown)
Bair: 3 hitboxes: Hexagon overhead that hits out, 12 damage; hexagon back that spikes, 11 damage; legs hit that hits 30 degrees and is very weak (takes precidence): 8 damage
Down B: 175% size of hitbox

Kirby as per discussion in main thread (as posted here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8131853&postcount=8349)

Remove F smash KB nerfs and remove some of its sheildstun
Reduce KBG on bair so that it KOs about 25% later on Mario in the center of FD than the unnerfed F smash


- Yoshi:
Remove speed up to enter sideB (not the exit)
D throw does 6 damage from 4


Started work on a Snake change up:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b494e51974face79425621d66e282a0ee8

This includes smaller F and U tilts and less smash DI on his jabs, then having third jab have the stats of the gentleman that Magus posted.

To add to this:
Slight speed up to the jabs overall
Nikita coming out faster and snake recovering from its drop faster
More KBG on D smash

 

[goodoldganon]

So let's see here...

Despite that fact that many of us agree that Snake's tilts are pretty 'gay' as far as I know many of us agreed that he was still balanced. So you take the liberty to nerf two of his bread and butter moves and nerf the jab knockback just because? And your compensation is hardly worth the nerfs.

D-smash KBG increase? Really? A situational setup? Hell, I'd be less inclined to use it with the supposed buff cause I don't want to get combo'd into it. (Yes, that does happen to Snake. He's a ragdoll for combos) The jab speed up is useless if you lowered the ability to SDI them. The nikita buff is the only nice one and all you are going to do with that buff is make Snake's job edgeguarding the characters that Nikita works on, even easier. I'm not suddenly going to be able to gimp new characters with it.

Jab is the quickest to tackle and here the deal. It's fine as it is. You can SDI before the last hit which I see you tried to remove but not only is that removing depth you also removed what made Snake's jab unique. Besides maybe Gandondorf and Ike no one else really has a jab that kills. Leave the jab alone.

Now I really don't see why we have to nerf these tilts and regardless of whatever suggestions I end up giving you for Snake, know that I hate the fact you guys want to change them and think you are huge babies. It sucked losing murder choke guarantees, but I lived with it and went on. You guys should do the same.

Before I tell you why Snake's tilts are ok let's take a look at Snake. Snake is a defensive character stuck in Brawl+'s offensive world. His options to start an offense are severely limited. So Snake baits and punishes accordingly. Use his grenades, mortar, and C4 to provide control over where his opponent goes and basically waits for them to make the commitment. Use the tilts, his setups, or even a few of his throws as punishment.

It sounds pretty lame at first but you have to remember Snake is probably the game's heaviest character now thanks to the physics changes. Combine that with Snake's high gravity and he screams combo bait. Snake gets punished at about the same level the good old Captain does. If he gets sent off horizontally it's good bye Snake since the cypher was hurt by the gravity and he SCREAMS spike bait if he recovers low.

That's why Snake needs these tilts. His character was designed at playing keep away. Would he be garbage without them? Probably not. His moves hit hard and his stage control is pretty solid. But does he need a nerf because we think he's 'gay'? Hardly. As Almas basically said, 'If it ain't broken, don't fix it,' and frankly I find a hard time believing Snake's tilts are broken. I'm sick and tired of arbitrarily redesigning characters because people think they are a little gay.

Also, don't give me that whole 'that move is too good' bull****. Spot dodged tilts are punishable for any character faster than Ganondorf. For christ sake look at Snake's U-tilt:

Hits on Frame: 6-13
Duration: 37

That's plenty of time for even Gandondorf to get in there and do some damage. Stop attacking Snake head on like fool and start playing smarter against him. Snake isn't like any other character in Smash and you have to fight him differently. I fail to see why that means we have to adjust him.

I changed my mind, I refuse to help try and 'balance' Snake's tilts because they are fine as is. If a change ever goes in I will fight it all the way.


EDIT: It's been a ****ty day. I'm not mad at you so don't hate please. Also, I'm sorry if I kinda jump around, I'm really tired.

 

[JCaesar]

No comment on the tilts/jab right now, but maybe we should consider making Snake not fall quite so fast. It would let him use nades more often to break combos, like he could in vBrawl, and maybe improve his air game and make him slightly harder to gimp.

Also, is there any way to make his cypher work better (ie pull him up faster)?

 

[VietGeek]

VietWall. Warning. VietWall.

While I understand the point of GoG's post, and I agree that Snake himself is relatively balanced, I'd like to bring up something here.

Brawl+ has a relatively small fanbase. I remember that we admitted a lot of bigger name players into the WBR because...well they're the big names. If they were WBR members, that would be saying to the public: "(insert name) supports Brawl+."

IDK about you guys, but the game's fanbase is still small. It will continue to be small simply because it IS A hacked game, and BECAUSE most people are content with Brawl the way it is.

We boast balance in this project. However, this is a vague statement if we just casually use it to describe Brawl+ if someone asks the inevitable "What is Brawl+?" question.

Is it character balance? Is it game mechanic balance? Is it balanced from a game designing perspective?

We boast character balance, or at least, the B+ community takes the time to boast this the most...perhaps even more than the engine tweaks...which character balance centers around.

We boast *relatively* balanced game mechanics. Shieldstun however is something I feel is a big issue right now. Over that is a damage-only knockback system, which it seems for all intents and purposes is not feasible.

But do we boast good design? Do we take that into consideration when it comes to balance? Wiztruck being able to link into itself if you don't mash SDI down may be considered bad design. Ganon's fair and bair having hitboxes that extend from his animation may be considered bad design.

The vBrawl SDI-ability of some moves (Ness fair for example) or vBrawl's bad design on moves that are suppose to link, like Sheik's and TL's fsmash, are also under scrutiny of bad design.

Then we have Snake's tilts. A lot of people aren't exactly turned off by the fact that the game moves at a snail's pace and that it's a borderline pure-spacing game with *some* characters being able to "combo."

It's not just bad game mechanics like jab locks or infinites or grab releases that make it unbearable for some.

It's all of that, alongside many other pecuilar things like odd hitboxes, both in duration and in size, that add onto the bad, possibly unbearable vBrawl experience.

When you see Balanced Brawl, or Brawl+, boasting a "better Brawl," many people are already wary of whether or not that claim is even remotely true. Many get turned-off by the idea that it's hacked, others get turned-off because it's been drastically changed, other get turned-off because of the lack of technical "depth."

Yet people who withstand all of that, and yet see that shieldstun can border Smash 64 dumbness, or odd buffs to characters like Ganon that make them seem un-Smash-like, or things that they "assumed" to be fixed like Snake's tilts...either willingly implemented in, or left there...

it turns people off. One can argue for Ganon, and almost everyone will always agree. But when you have Snake...whose punishment game is based on a ridiculously disjointed move with:

1. kill potential
2. great damage-racking ability
3. most reliable horizontal killer
4. best GTFO move
5. virtually safe on shield (**** is better than Dancing Blade pre-nerf)
6. allows for tech chase or free pseudo lock.
7. safe on clank with most moves due to its speed-range-power ratio.

that's dumb. I'm not saying for the sake of character balance. I mean from a designing perspective on a competitive game, a character that is THAT dependent on a move that is ridiculous like that from a analytical standpoint...is just dumb.

Then we have utilt, which is the lesser of the two evils. But still.

1. Most reliable combo move into aerials.
2. also amazing disjointed
3. powerful enough to kill most people *with good DI* around 120-130 area, only dumb because of everything else

4. is basically safe if clanks with anything.
5. yet another good GTFO move that overshadows jab in high-pressure situations where both you and your opponent are at near-death %'s.

We add this with ridiculous aerials with obscene power, AND linger (or at least uair and bair have true linger hitboxes), dair isn't commonly used but its there. Nair is indeed *VERY* dumb in design, but its potency is questionable considering Snake's tilts are really what his game centralizes on.

In general, Snake has a very dumb design. And I would say there's no way on Earth we would change his design, nor be allowed to get away with doing so as the existing community's backlash may be very great depending on how we set out to do that.

BUT

We must ask ourselves:

who are we catering to? What fanbase do we want? "Disgruntled Brawlers" is too vague to describe the group. Are we catering to Brawlers who hate the game but love the characters? Are we catering to everybody who wants a better Brawl?

Now that you've asked yourselves that, know that in MY community, the B+ community has not grown one bit. A good number of people go to try it out. However, we have a Snake player, ZOMB~, he plays the game simply to make fun of the fact that he can get away with playing Snake near identical to vBrawl...

but get away with:

- whiff'd aerials (due to 50% ALR), which is considered obscene if we consider the ridiculous knockback and properties of each of those aerials (except for fair but that's a showmanship move) <_<

- shielded filts since it's safe on block

- combo off utilt or ftilt which have obscene range

- uthrow into utilt, goes off about twice with good DI at most, then into uair or bair. Does a lot of damage.

And this is the type of stuff that people say when they are asked to play Brawl+. They don't want to play a game that claims to try to fix things, then find that "glaringly obvious design flaws" like Snake's tilts were left unchanged. It gives a bad impression.

People don't read up on the game before they play it.

They play it, see if they like it, THEN read up on it.

I have extremely talented Melee players like Full Metal, GA Peach (Marty), Xif play this game, see what Snake can do, and immediately become disgusted by it.

Their opinion is also shared by a lot of the Melee community, which hates Brawl period. Yet when they try to give a "remake" a second-try, what turned them off before is still not fixed. Aren't the remaining Melee-ers also "Disgruntled Brawlers?" Don't we want them to like this game too?

We can't make everyone happy, but we can **** right try.

Nintendo may be broadening its horizons and seem to forget its hardcore fanbase, but it does so out of necessity to grow when competition sets out to appeal to the "hardcore" also.

If we think ourselves as a company, we should NEVER forget the people who helped us become what we are. However, we must also set out to survive and expand so that we won't die out...which is another way of leaving our fanbase so to speak.

 

[Revven]

omg, that post is some times how I feel we should approach certain things. Ganon's Utilt change is one of them, the obvious UGLINESS of that move and its unnatural change... ugh, can we take that IASA **** on it out?

Also, speaking of people who need changing, we need to do some more MK **** too. I have a .PAC here I want people to test where MK has lost two of his jumps, Dthrow has a 65 degree angle, and Fsmash lost its transcendent priority (if I did it right) and see what it clanks with. Honestly, we need to get our **** together on Snake too.

MK .PAC: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?njwjtg4koto

 

[Deleted member]

ok, I think we need to make a desiccion now. are we gonna try to preserve playstyle or are we gonna make every character "as they should have been" ?

We don't have to fully go either way, but I think we need to go more in the secodn direction becasue that was our original focus, not neccesarily with characters/moves, but we did with the game itself, where we chose good design over preserving brawl.

I actually think we could have this as our main subject of our next meeting, and then just go over moves that might need a treatment.

 

[Almas]

If you could create Melee+, would you change Peach' DSmash? It comes out fast, clanks with most moves, has a huge hitbox, comboes into itself, sets up for techchases, kills and damages like crazy.

But it's easily punishable. And playing Peach turns into a game of getting around the DSmash. And we all love her for it.

 

[GHNeko]

I still think we should weaken the dsmash she has now. e__e

I'm all for why they did it but god **** tone it down.

 

[JCaesar]

Thank you x1000 Viet

It always bothers me when someone uses "learn to deal with it" as an excuse not to change something. ****, vBrawl MK can be "dealt" with, but that doesn't mean he wasn't poorly designed within the context of the game and needs to be fixed. I definitely think we should look at some of these other poor Sakurai design choices (Lucas' lack of zair hitbox, Falco's SHDL, Snake's tilts, MK in general, just as a few recent examples) and rethink some of them, even if they change a character's style a bit.

I have another issue but I'm going to go make a topic for it because I think it warrants a discussion of its own. See me in 5 minutes.
Scratch that. Nevermind.

 

[Deleted member]

completely off-topic but this is first time I noticed, JCaesar, how did you make your name bright pink? (without getting pranked)

 

[JCaesar]

I got pranked. It doesn't show "Pranked..." under my name because I have a premie account, so I get to keep my custom title.

 

[GHNeko]

He probably got pranked and used his premium ability to change his title. :V



FFFFF NINJA'D

 

[shanus]

VietWall. Warning. VietWall.

While I understand the point of GoG's post, and I agree that Snake himself is relatively balanced, I'd like to bring up something here.

Brawl+ has a relatively small fanbase. I remember that we admitted a lot of bigger name players into the WBR because...well they're the big names. If they were WBR members, that would be saying to the public: "(insert name) supports Brawl+."

IDK about you guys, but the game's fanbase is still small. It will continue to be small simply because it IS A hacked game, and BECAUSE most people are content with Brawl the way it is.

We boast balance in this project. However, this is a vague statement if we just casually use it to describe Brawl+ if someone asks the inevitable "What is Brawl+?" question.

Is it character balance? Is it game mechanic balance? Is it balanced from a game designing perspective?

We boast character balance, or at least, the B+ community takes the time to boast this the most...perhaps even more than the engine tweaks...which character balance centers around.

We boast *relatively* balanced game mechanics. Shieldstun however is something I feel is a big issue right now. Over that is a damage-only knockback system, which it seems for all intents and purposes is not feasible.

But do we boast good design? Do we take that into consideration when it comes to balance? Wiztruck being able to link into itself if you don't mash SDI down may be considered bad design. Ganon's fair and bair having hitboxes that extend from his animation may be considered bad design.

The vBrawl SDI-ability of some moves (Ness fair for example) or vBrawl's bad design on moves that are suppose to link, like Sheik's and TL's fsmash, are also under scrutiny of bad design.

Then we have Snake's tilts. A lot of people aren't exactly turned off by the fact that the game moves at a snail's pace and that it's a borderline pure-spacing game with *some* characters being able to "combo."

It's not just bad game mechanics like jab locks or infinites or grab releases that make it unbearable for some.

It's all of that, alongside many other pecuilar things like odd hitboxes, both in duration and in size, that add onto the bad, possibly unbearable vBrawl experience.

When you see Balanced Brawl, or Brawl+, boasting a "better Brawl," many people are already wary of whether or not that claim is even remotely true. Many get turned-off by the idea that it's hacked, others get turned-off because it's been drastically changed, other get turned-off because of the lack of technical "depth."

Yet people who withstand all of that, and yet see that shieldstun can border Smash 64 dumbness, or odd buffs to characters like Ganon that make them seem un-Smash-like, or things that they "assumed" to be fixed like Snake's tilts...either willingly implemented in, or left there...

it turns people off. One can argue for Ganon, and almost everyone will always agree. But when you have Snake...whose punishment game is based on a ridiculously disjointed move with:

1. kill potential
2. great damage-racking ability
3. most reliable horizontal killer
4. best GTFO move
5. virtually safe on shield (**** is better than Dancing Blade pre-nerf)
6. allows for tech chase or free pseudo lock.
7. safe on clank with most moves due to its speed-range-power ratio.

that's dumb. I'm not saying for the sake of character balance. I mean from a designing perspective on a competitive game, a character that is THAT dependent on a move that is ridiculous like that from a analytical standpoint...is just dumb.

Then we have utilt, which is the lesser of the two evils. But still.

1. Most reliable combo move into aerials.
2. also amazing disjointed
3. powerful enough to kill most people *with good DI* around 120-130 area, only dumb because of everything else

4. is basically safe if clanks with anything.
5. yet another good GTFO move that overshadows jab in high-pressure situations where both you and your opponent are at near-death %'s.

We add this with ridiculous aerials with obscene power, AND linger (or at least uair and bair have true linger hitboxes), dair isn't commonly used but its there. Nair is indeed *VERY* dumb in design, but its potency is questionable considering Snake's tilts are really what his game centralizes on.

In general, Snake has a very dumb design. And I would say there's no way on Earth we would change his design, nor be allowed to get away with doing so as the existing community's backlash may be very great depending on how we set out to do that.

BUT

We must ask ourselves:

who are we catering to? What fanbase do we want? "Disgruntled Brawlers" is too vague to describe the group. Are we catering to Brawlers who hate the game but love the characters? Are we catering to everybody who wants a better Brawl?

Now that you've asked yourselves that, know that in MY community, the B+ community has not grown one bit. A good number of people go to try it out. However, we have a Snake player, ZOMB~, he plays the game simply to make fun of the fact that he can get away with playing Snake near identical to vBrawl...

but get away with:

- whiff'd aerials (due to 50% ALR), which is considered obscene if we consider the ridiculous knockback and properties of each of those aerials (except for fair but that's a showmanship move) <_<

- shielded filts since it's safe on block

- combo off utilt or ftilt which have obscene range

- uthrow into utilt, goes off about twice with good DI at most, then into uair or bair. Does a lot of damage.

And this is the type of stuff that people say when they are asked to play Brawl+. They don't want to play a game that claims to try to fix things, then find that "glaringly obvious design flaws" like Snake's tilts were left unchanged. It gives a bad impression.

People don't read up on the game before they play it.

They play it, see if they like it, THEN read up on it.

I have extremely talented Melee players like Full Metal, GA Peach (Marty), Xif play this game, see what Snake can do, and immediately become disgusted by it.

Their opinion is also shared by a lot of the Melee community, which hates Brawl period. Yet when they try to give a "remake" a second-try, what turned them off before is still not fixed. Aren't the remaining Melee-ers also "Disgruntled Brawlers?" Don't we want them to like this game too?

We can't make everyone happy, but we can **** right try.

Nintendo may be broadening its horizons and seem to forget its hardcore fanbase, but it does so out of necessity to grow when competition sets out to appeal to the "hardcore" also.

If we think ourselves as a company, we should NEVER forget the people who helped us become what we are. However, we must also set out to survive and expand so that we won't die out...which is another way of leaving our fanbase so to speak.

However, changing this by default ignores the obvious: character balance and match-up design.

Snake has very obvious counterpicks, such as Olimar as an example.

Nerfing his bread an dbutter defense does nothing but make these counterpicks even more obvious. Even if you buffed a ton of his other options, these counterpicks will still prevail because they can cover his other options easily.

So many of these changes are just *because* people want it, and don't seem to think about the matchups.

Snake by design, where you call it flawed, is a character who must be innately more campy as he is built on a ton of tricks. His approaches are obvious, and so he must take his time by design

So unless you plan on rewriting snake entirely, there is no fixing it.


I do agree with you on shieldstun though, it is a bit obscene. I think a mor eappropriate nerf for snake would be trying to lower the shield damage he does (does shield damage add into shieldstun, or no?)

 

[The Cape]

I agree with Viet completely and would like to defend my positions on the snake changes:

Jabs:
Faster overall with gentleman style KB and less SDIability gives Snake back what he might lose with the U tilt and F tilt nerfs. This gives him a quick, relatively safe move that does decent damage and gets people off him, its now more similar to Ike's jabs as its KO point is a bit higher and its overall much safer. First two jabs still have all their old uses and are more reliable overall.

F tilt:
Everything Viet listed for this move, its a complete WTF and fits into the Metaknight category of bad character design.

U tilt:
Same reasons as above

fB speed ups:
This was done to allow Snake more of what he is excellent at: Stage control and spacing. With a faster startup and stop time this makes this move safer and allows Snake more long range control over the battle field. This move, unlike grenades, cannot be used against him. With the faster speed on it it will open up many more options for the character both on stage and off. This is a great benefit to Snake's more unique playstyle.

upB less grav:
Go back to vBrawl speed of assent, we should have the ability to do it soon and I feel its completely justified. On top of this, lets give him an IASA frame on it pretty early on (maybe 5 frames after the cypher comes out) that he can AD with. This gives Snake the ability to "abandon" the cypher at any time and therefore have an overall safer recovery.

Faster downB (already in):
This assists Snake with his higher grav as it allows him to C4 recover more often and also assists with his stage control aspects.

D smash KBG buff:
Stage control, stage control, stage control. With this I would also like to increase the time that it stays on the feild as well as the C4, this allows for more stage control.

Grenades:
Allow snake to drop the grenades in the air like he can on the ground. This allows him to drop the nade and go into holding it as an item with an air catch. This will be a very useful technique and I feel it should be allowed.

Nair and Dair:
Damage reduction overall. These moves hit pretty solidly and I feel could be reduced a bit in damage (maybe 1 or 2 overall).

Those are my overall thoughts on Snake and I feel that will defeinetly bring some good to him. This will make him seem more professional and assist with his overall defensive and stage control gameplay style.
I would also consider new physics as well.

 

[Revven]

Here's a better Meta Knight .PAC: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tn4d3ioiyjn

Changed: Dthrow has an angle of 120º, has shanus's KB changes. (At most only allows Bair to hit from Dthrow, which is easily SDI'd).
Shuttle Loop (grounded) lost its invincibility frames.

Addresses some of the most recent issues people were having. If there is anything else that needs to be done to MK, it would be to his Dair (more wind-down or some kind of KB/angle change) or get rid of transcendent priority from his Fsmash, Dsmash, and Usmash. I am not advocating either one though simply because messing with Dair messes with his gimping power and messing with transcendent priority can get rid of one of his weaknesses (not being able to clank projectiles). From what I tested with Fsmash though, he could stop Samus's Super Missiles easily so I am not really in favor of getting rid of his TP on any of his moves.

We may also need to tweak Dtilt for the next build as well. I probably should have gotten rid of its IASA but, oh well.

 

[VietGeek]

How important is it that he can't clank with projectiles? How many good projectiles do you know that aren't already impossible to clank with already? I certainly don't know any aside from Samus's which you buffed, and possibly Aura Sphere. The only thing I would worry a lot on is the Links's bombs. We should try to get rid of TP off his ground moves and see how it will affect him.

Fsmash is way too good as a space dictation move imo. You can literally win the GnW match-up fishing for bairs and using fsmash to have a great front to defend from retaliation. It makes match-ups where the opponent is outranged and forced to take the offensive anyway even more tipped (lolsmashswordpuns) in his favor.

Mind you its not nonpunishable, nor is it as potent of a tactic as it is in vBrawl, but it certainly is very good considering its already on an amazing character that is roughly amazing in every aspect except aerial mobility and weight, which aren't exactly extremely exploitable weaknesses to begin with.

idk, let's try things first and see how they work out. We've overnerfed things before, but stayed really conservative with MK throughout this project.

We may be reaching gold and expected to make less "bad" decisions now that we have more knowledge under our belt, but mistakes will happen. Overnerfing MK by mistake will be the least of our worries. He's VERY easy to bring back to glory anyway. =P

k two walls, cool. if only homework was as exciting as Theory Bros.