Revven
FrankerZ
If you want to test an MK without TP, let me know and I'll edit the .PAC further so all his smashes have no TP.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Discussion Points on Latest Set
- Thread starter The Cape
- Start date
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I'm frankly not in the mood to pick apart the points in the Snake nerf posts because it's obvious that Shanus, GHNeko, and I are in the minority about the whole thing anyway. Change is going to happen because a bunch of babies are gonna whine till it's changed, such is the way any game that changes is balanced. Just get ready to completely redesign YET ANOTHER character because the suggestions to fix Snake up are just cleverly disguised nerfs. Nerfs to a character most people thought I was crazy about for voting into the top 10.
You guys hated Marth cause all he really had to do was 'camp F-air all day'. Sure he had things he could do instead, but people thought 'Why bother when I can spam F-air and win?' So the same thing is being said about Snake. All he has to do is camp his tilts and win. And though a slight understatement, yes it is Snake's best option but he also really doesn't have any other options to speak of.
Marth had (has) spacing options, a pressure game, and a start to combo game that we were able to build upon to get the Marth we have today. Snake doesn't have that luxury really. He has a camping game that is built around tilts and a stage control game which is not only highly overrated (unique =/= good all the time, despite how much I preach its importance) but is something I'd hardly call reliable. He certainly isn't comboing into his traps very often. You place them there to seal off approach options. Any character with a projectile or a z-air can do that. Snake's is no different or better. I'd argue a good Link (Toon or Adult) is much better at stage control then Snake will EVER be.
So with the suggested changes we have nerfed Snake's camping game. What is Snake going to do to go on the offense? Mortar Slide? Ya ok that might work against a few bads, but it's certainly not an approach tool against a decent player. You Mortar Slide to get space and cover distance as fast as possible. So what? Dash attack? lol that sets up for anything. Dash canceled d-tilt? That sounds as appetizing as week old McDonalds burgers. Please enlighten me what offensive utility Snake has, or is gaining from Cape's suggested changes?
All you guys are going to end up doing is make Snake have to camp harder to win. He has a few solid grab combos at low percentages but otherwise Snake has no combos and offense to speak of. Snake is built on the one-two hit with large, lingering, and damaging hitboxes. He then uses his stage control to set up his one twos because when he screws them up he gets punished, HARD.
None of your suggestions, except jab, play to Snake's strength. You are nerfing U-tilt and F-tilt and for some reason went about a bizzare hate on N-air and D-air. Two moves that can be SDI'd out of, are terrible approaches, and are really only good edgeguarding.
The up-b change back to vbrawl gravity is silly because with his current playstyle it balances him out. We also addressed the problem with the C4 speedup. Next we have d-smash knockback buff which I see you fail to realize that really isn't a buff. Decent combo characters can chain Snake right into them. The risk/reward set up on D-smash is fine.
Lastly, in an attempt to buff his grenades I'd argue you even nerfed them. NEWSFLASH, Snake has 0, NADA, ZILCH landing lag when he lands with a grenade in his hand. For God's sake I can land on my own mine with a grenade in the my hand and get the shield up before I get hit. Pull grenade->land->shield->grab is pro and totally legit. With how fast you can put up and drop a shield aerial grenades are massive mindgames and probably the least known thing about Snake. The mixup potential with aerial grenades is good enough already.
Unless you have some plan I didn't understand, I'd rather keep his current aerial grenade holding thank you. I also don't know what cool things you think Snake could do holding a grenade like an item in the air. He won't be able to effectively cook it due to Brawl+'s higher gravity and they don't blow up on impact. Throwing it at the ground would probably cause it to bounce right back. The only half way decent thing Snake could do with it would be to drop it during air dodge making the person hit the grenade. Like how he can shield -> nade drop to blow aggressive shield attackers up.
I don't even know why I'm writing all this because I wanted to be in bed 10 minutes ago. Just realize that though your thoughts on changing Snake might be in what you feel are the best intentions (I truly don't believe anyone in the WBR is childish enough to nerf/change a character because they don't like them) it's currently very inherently flawed. By getting rid of the tilts you are going to force Snake to camp EVEN harder and not help in any area really. If one of Brawl+'s goals is to eliminate the remnants of vBrawl then yes, Snake is sadly going to need to reworked, but I don't see why having ONE character that plays virtually identical to what he did in vBrawl is somehow a flawed thing.
You guys have a TON of work to do on Snake if you are gonna remove his tilt game because he is going to need a total retooling. I'd think Snake would require one almost if not as large as Link and Ivy.
P.S. On a lighter note, regardless of what we do with Snake I do believe we should use PSA to give him two new taunts. Having 3 box taunts is the laziest **** ever.
EDIT1: I never critiqued the side-b edit you had cause frankly I have no idea what you want to speed up. The missiles travel speed or how long it takes him to take out/put away the Nikita. If it's the travel speed then yes, that could be a unique way to buff him but I highly doubt it's possible. If it's the take out/put away time then I have a slew of problems with that idea too.
EDIT2: I feel like this debate will never be settled in the back room. Maybe I'm overreacting, but it's just too controversial. Do we bring it to the masses or are we gonna try and solve this amongst ourselves.
You guys hated Marth cause all he really had to do was 'camp F-air all day'. Sure he had things he could do instead, but people thought 'Why bother when I can spam F-air and win?' So the same thing is being said about Snake. All he has to do is camp his tilts and win. And though a slight understatement, yes it is Snake's best option but he also really doesn't have any other options to speak of.
Marth had (has) spacing options, a pressure game, and a start to combo game that we were able to build upon to get the Marth we have today. Snake doesn't have that luxury really. He has a camping game that is built around tilts and a stage control game which is not only highly overrated (unique =/= good all the time, despite how much I preach its importance) but is something I'd hardly call reliable. He certainly isn't comboing into his traps very often. You place them there to seal off approach options. Any character with a projectile or a z-air can do that. Snake's is no different or better. I'd argue a good Link (Toon or Adult) is much better at stage control then Snake will EVER be.
So with the suggested changes we have nerfed Snake's camping game. What is Snake going to do to go on the offense? Mortar Slide? Ya ok that might work against a few bads, but it's certainly not an approach tool against a decent player. You Mortar Slide to get space and cover distance as fast as possible. So what? Dash attack? lol that sets up for anything. Dash canceled d-tilt? That sounds as appetizing as week old McDonalds burgers. Please enlighten me what offensive utility Snake has, or is gaining from Cape's suggested changes?
All you guys are going to end up doing is make Snake have to camp harder to win. He has a few solid grab combos at low percentages but otherwise Snake has no combos and offense to speak of. Snake is built on the one-two hit with large, lingering, and damaging hitboxes. He then uses his stage control to set up his one twos because when he screws them up he gets punished, HARD.
None of your suggestions, except jab, play to Snake's strength. You are nerfing U-tilt and F-tilt and for some reason went about a bizzare hate on N-air and D-air. Two moves that can be SDI'd out of, are terrible approaches, and are really only good edgeguarding.
The up-b change back to vbrawl gravity is silly because with his current playstyle it balances him out. We also addressed the problem with the C4 speedup. Next we have d-smash knockback buff which I see you fail to realize that really isn't a buff. Decent combo characters can chain Snake right into them. The risk/reward set up on D-smash is fine.
Lastly, in an attempt to buff his grenades I'd argue you even nerfed them. NEWSFLASH, Snake has 0, NADA, ZILCH landing lag when he lands with a grenade in his hand. For God's sake I can land on my own mine with a grenade in the my hand and get the shield up before I get hit. Pull grenade->land->shield->grab is pro and totally legit. With how fast you can put up and drop a shield aerial grenades are massive mindgames and probably the least known thing about Snake. The mixup potential with aerial grenades is good enough already.
Unless you have some plan I didn't understand, I'd rather keep his current aerial grenade holding thank you. I also don't know what cool things you think Snake could do holding a grenade like an item in the air. He won't be able to effectively cook it due to Brawl+'s higher gravity and they don't blow up on impact. Throwing it at the ground would probably cause it to bounce right back. The only half way decent thing Snake could do with it would be to drop it during air dodge making the person hit the grenade. Like how he can shield -> nade drop to blow aggressive shield attackers up.
I don't even know why I'm writing all this because I wanted to be in bed 10 minutes ago. Just realize that though your thoughts on changing Snake might be in what you feel are the best intentions (I truly don't believe anyone in the WBR is childish enough to nerf/change a character because they don't like them) it's currently very inherently flawed. By getting rid of the tilts you are going to force Snake to camp EVEN harder and not help in any area really. If one of Brawl+'s goals is to eliminate the remnants of vBrawl then yes, Snake is sadly going to need to reworked, but I don't see why having ONE character that plays virtually identical to what he did in vBrawl is somehow a flawed thing.
You guys have a TON of work to do on Snake if you are gonna remove his tilt game because he is going to need a total retooling. I'd think Snake would require one almost if not as large as Link and Ivy.
P.S. On a lighter note, regardless of what we do with Snake I do believe we should use PSA to give him two new taunts. Having 3 box taunts is the laziest **** ever.
EDIT1: I never critiqued the side-b edit you had cause frankly I have no idea what you want to speed up. The missiles travel speed or how long it takes him to take out/put away the Nikita. If it's the travel speed then yes, that could be a unique way to buff him but I highly doubt it's possible. If it's the take out/put away time then I have a slew of problems with that idea too.
EDIT2: I feel like this debate will never be settled in the back room. Maybe I'm overreacting, but it's just too controversial. Do we bring it to the masses or are we gonna try and solve this amongst ourselves.
The Cape
Smash Master
The aerial grenade thing is to give him the ability to switch it if he so chooses. Not to make it stay in his hand as an item when he pulls it. He should receive the option to switch it as he does on the ground.
As for the Nikita speed up, you never made a mention on that at all.
As for camping harder to win, that is Snake's style and I have no problem with that. The thing that bothers me is that he only requires one (sometimes two) moves and thats just silly. Snake has plenty of options outside tilts camp which you can see with people playing him all the time.
Wasnt alot of tilt camping in this set and it displays the other aspects of Snake well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtsM1Xeudec
His platform game is really nasty because of his ability to do stage control. Will you at least give the changes a try instead of vehemently arguing that we shouldnt change something because its "fine" but it really isnt. Its one of the things that made vBrawl so stupid and we dont need any of that here again (as Viet said).
As for the Nikita speed up, you never made a mention on that at all.
As for camping harder to win, that is Snake's style and I have no problem with that. The thing that bothers me is that he only requires one (sometimes two) moves and thats just silly. Snake has plenty of options outside tilts camp which you can see with people playing him all the time.
Wasnt alot of tilt camping in this set and it displays the other aspects of Snake well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtsM1Xeudec
His platform game is really nasty because of his ability to do stage control. Will you at least give the changes a try instead of vehemently arguing that we shouldnt change something because its "fine" but it really isnt. Its one of the things that made vBrawl so stupid and we dont need any of that here again (as Viet said).
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I'm on my way to work but I will say that D3 was pretty awful. He recklessly attacked Snake a lot and Snake punished. I also liked his lack of teching, lack of minions, and lack of any semblance of knowledge on playing D3. No D-air? Really? Tapion is a great Snake and I will admit he did use some cool stuff, but that D3 was just awful. It's easy to show cool stuff when the person you are facing is bad.
P.S. I did comment on the Nikita.
My last question before I go is: Why do you guys feel Snake, a character some of you thought was silly to vote into the top 10, deserves nerfs and suddenly has to play that much harder to win? The only character that wasn't considered top tier that has to play harder is Dorf, and that's cause the side-b fix was deemed ugly and had bugs in it.
P.S. I did comment on the Nikita.
Thanks for reading the whole thing
My last question before I go is: Why do you guys feel Snake, a character some of you thought was silly to vote into the top 10, deserves nerfs and suddenly has to play that much harder to win? The only character that wasn't considered top tier that has to play harder is Dorf, and that's cause the side-b fix was deemed ugly and had bugs in it.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
I think Snake's old tilts are stupid, but I don't think Snake should be nerfed. I'd like to find a way to make his tilts less central to his game while improving him in other areas. That's why I suggested improving his up-B, and giving him a bit lower gravity so he doesn't get comboed and gimped so easily, which might even improve his aerial game.
And you don't have to tell me about non-top-tier characters getting nerfed. Hardly anyone would put ROB in the top 10, yet he has received nothing but nerfs, most (but not all) of which have been reversed.
And you don't have to tell me about non-top-tier characters getting nerfed. Hardly anyone would put ROB in the top 10, yet he has received nothing but nerfs, most (but not all) of which have been reversed.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Any further Snake debates will be taking place in his topic. If we are reediting Snake I will head it and we are doing it as I say. That means an outline of our goals for Snake. What we want him to be good at and what he should be bad at. Then we will discuss his moves one by one to figure out how he will get there. His gravity in Brawl+ feels great so if at all possible we will not be editing that. Know that I hate the idea of changing Snake because I don't find him flawed, but I am not bullheaded enough to refuse to cooperate and try and come up with something.
Revven
FrankerZ
Also, we should try messing with that camera attribute PSA has for each character: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8183296&postcount=11691
It'd probably be A LOT better than trying to get the camera code fixed.
It'd probably be A LOT better than trying to get the camera code fixed.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Can we remove the ROB dash attack nerf? It was very much unnecessary.
And Ryoko, if we must keep Sheik's slower fair, can we at least add IASA frames to the end for either side-B or jump (though this would have other ramifications) so that she can use it lower off the stage for gimps?
And Ryoko, if we must keep Sheik's slower fair, can we at least add IASA frames to the end for either side-B or jump (though this would have other ramifications) so that she can use it lower off the stage for gimps?
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
The Cape, could you add a check-list to the OP so that we can get this 5.0 set polished up and officiated?
Things I know need fixing:
Ganon
Link
Bowser
I know there are a lot of little things we're planning for a next nightly (small ATs, Snake work (?), etc.) but I'd like to just work on fixing what's wrong with the current set so we can get an official version out within the next few days - week.
An IRC meeting might be just the thing to get this stuff squared away.
Things I know need fixing:
Ganon
- D-throw is escapable when DI'd down and teching away. ZeonStar says it's worse than the default one.. could we return to the Melee-style one we had with slightly less KBG?
- U-tilt - This is very controversial, but I'd like to try moving the IASA to 40 or 45, and then only allowing B-moves. A lot of players really love the move, and I'd like to give it one more chance before throwing it out
Link
- Increase damage on Grounded Spin Attack to ~16% or so (compensate KB) and either raise KB on arrows or make jab IASA 1-2 frames sooner
Bowser
- Make Nair come out on frame 5 for a better combo-breaker
- Remove dash attack nerf
I know there are a lot of little things we're planning for a next nightly (small ATs, Snake work (?), etc.) but I'd like to just work on fixing what's wrong with the current set so we can get an official version out within the next few days - week.
An IRC meeting might be just the thing to get this stuff squared away.
The Cape
Smash Master
Lucas stuff that was discussed with Shell and I:
- Make downB hitbox match the animation
- Uair has 5 frames less winddown
- bair has different hitboxes
Diddy wall bounce animation fixed (from exploding barrels)
Fun idea:
Ness and Lucas wall headbutts have hitboxes :-p
Any other chars need grab range fixed? Gonna check (make em fit the animation)
- Make downB hitbox match the animation
- Uair has 5 frames less winddown
- bair has different hitboxes
Diddy wall bounce animation fixed (from exploding barrels)
Fun idea:
Ness and Lucas wall headbutts have hitboxes :-p
Any other chars need grab range fixed? Gonna check (make em fit the animation)
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
Uair is a juggling move yet has ~40 frames of cooldown. This is fine when SHFFLing, but is otherwise rather silly. I've had a couple people comment on this and I agree.
Consider, Mario's Uair and Falcon's Uair have around 20 frames of cooldown.
Consider, Mario's Uair and Falcon's Uair have around 20 frames of cooldown.
Stuff on Snake.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8190412&postcount=1835
Starts at that post and continues onward. V:
Intersting if you ask me.
Shifted my stance from Adamantly against to strongly against on the subject of snake.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8190412&postcount=1835
Starts at that post and continues onward. V:
Intersting if you ask me.
Shifted my stance from Adamantly against to strongly against on the subject of snake.
Revven
FrankerZ
lol Neko, it's true, that's all it takes to play Snake. Well spaced tilts and 'nades, you hardly even have to do Down Smash to plant the mines or use Nair even. I watched Ally vs. M2K in + and that's what he was doing, he did Ftilt, 'nades, grabbing, and Utilt for the kill. And since Ftilt has that monster shieldstun, M2K can't punish it from OoS with MK.
He lost to Ally, Ally knocked him into loser's.
He lost to Ally, Ally knocked him into loser's.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Snake... the more I think about that character the more I feel he needs to be changed. I used to be very neutral on the subject, but more and more I'm leaning toward the "let's fix him" side.
Mother boy syndrome. Get ***** neko.
I figured it did. It always look liked it did.
Falco400, are there any vids of Ally in Brawl+?
I think those are what I need to know what side I stand on. From the sounds of it, we simply would have to reduce the reward of tilts/nades and buff other aspects to reward use of versitilty.
Falco400, are there any vids of Ally in Brawl+?
I think those are what I need to know what side I stand on. From the sounds of it, we simply would have to reduce the reward of tilts/nades and buff other aspects to reward use of versitilty.
The Cape
Smash Master
Thats what I would like to see as well.
Longer duration C4, faster start and stop of Nikita missile, IASA frame on upB to AD out sooner for safety. (thoughts)
Nades and Tilts just need a bit of work.
Versitility in his moveset would be great as the character is basically a joke for Brawl+ right now.
Longer duration C4, faster start and stop of Nikita missile, IASA frame on upB to AD out sooner for safety. (thoughts)
Nades and Tilts just need a bit of work.
Versitility in his moveset would be great as the character is basically a joke for Brawl+ right now.
Revven
FrankerZ
Not yet, though when I watched, Ally vs. M2K matches were saved. So let's see if those get recorded or not.