Discussion: Capricious Design Elements, Situational Decision-Making, & Fair Item Use

[MookieRah]

but if/when people berate me for not participating in the tournament scene/critisize my rules/pressure me to play a certain way (which you will find on MANY occasions here) I get pissed.

Funny, from my vantage point it seems more the opposite. 90% of the time a casual player complains to us about how we should change, and we, for the most part, are simply defending our position. Also, you will claim that "pros" are berating you, yet usually it's just some guy that talks loud.

Ok, so since you've never seen it, it doesn't exist?

No, it exists but it is in the vast minority. On the contraty you guys instigate most of the competitive vs casual stuff by trying to tell us how to play. Thusly, because we argue with you, you feel as if your views are threatened yet we are merely defending our point of view when someone calls us out on it.

 

[Xanderous]

I must agree with MookieRah. As I said before, I've never actually seen a tournament player make a thread that says "hey, people I don't know and won't ever meet: start playing the way I do"

 

[M.K]

Funny, from my vantage point it seems more the opposite. 90% of the time a casual player complains to us about how we should change, and we, for the most part, are simply defending our position. Also, you will claim that "pros" are berating you, yet usually it's just some guy that talks loud.

Hmm, you are right. It's totally funny! From MY vantage point (regarding the first statement), you juts put yourself on an obnoxiously high pedestal. This also irks me a little bit, how it can be ok for tournament players to look down upon casuals, but when the opposite is done, it's suddenly a big issue.

Regarding the second statement, if the guy who talks loud gets the point across, then you can say the EXACT same for the casual who complains about the competitive. You just contradicted yourself...sort of.

p.s. I'm not trying to sound mean, excuse me if it comes off that way. I don't want to start anything I know I'd lose anyway!

 

[MookieRah]

Hmm, you are right. It's totally funny! From MY vantage point (regarding the first statement), you juts put yourself on an obnoxiously high pedestal. This also irks me a little bit, how it can be ok for tournament players to look down upon casuals, but when the opposite is done, it's suddenly a big issue.

Way to miss a point and argue semantics. You know what? It ISN'T cool at all when a competitive person berates a casual player. I am not advocating this. If I ever berate anyone it is in response to their ignorance, not because of what they associate themselves by.

Regarding the second statement, if the guy who talks loud gets the point across, then you can say the EXACT same for the casual who complains about the competitive. You just contradicted yourself...sort of.

No it's not a contridiction. You will claim a "pro" berrates you, when it's really just some unknown guy that probably isn't that great who just likes competitive play. I rarely see anyone of true pro status post, much less berate anyone. The problem is, everything that guy says becomes associated with the "pros" and everyone who identifies themsevles as competitive. I know this goes both ways, as to how a lot of people assume all casual players are idiots. I don't think that is true, cause I've debated with a lot of smart people from both sides on the issue.

 

[Shadic]

What? You just said you agreed with him. I'm not even talking about you.

Well, I had the most recent people that was portrayed as "Against Mookie," so it appeared you were tagging behind Mookie in disagreeing with me.

 

[ShadeofDante]

This thread makes me happy.

I honestly thought for the longest time that no one would actively defend the use of items in this series in a well written, well thought out matter. I completely agree with the OP, and with more people like this on these boards, they may lose some of the negative stigma attached to them.

 

[Mike G]

LOL man mookie Id give it up if I were you. theres always gonna be someone who chooses not to understand how we play the game. so let them be


It's not like we decided to ban items at the first melee tourneys back in the day you know. It took us THREE YEARS to finally make a decision to ban items completely. The same goes for certain stages.

When we finally host tourneys for Brawl all items and stages will go the same trials just as melee did.

*sigh* why do i even bother...

 

[MookieRah]

Dangs, two posts with Mike G in one day. That's badass.

LOL man mookie Id give it up if I were you. theres always gonna be someone who chooses not to understand how we play the game. so let them be

Yeah, I should. I put up a good fight though.

 

[Erave]

I would hope Smash Balls would be allowed (well not that it matters to me since I'll never do tournaments... but) because it's part of the character's move set. There are some really powerful character specific moves (like Fox's up A) but they weren't banned in Melee. It's a part of your moveset. Unlike an item, it doesn't have the same effect, it differs from characters to characters. And it's not even a guaranteed use. You have to earn it.

 

[MookieRah]

because it's part of the character's move set. There are some really powerful character specific moves (like Fox's up A) but they weren't banned in Melee.

Are you serious? Look, you need an item to activate it. It's not "a part of the moveset" it's a unique item-based attack.

 

[Erave]

Are you serious? Look, you need an item to activate it. It's not "a part of the moveset" it's a unique item-based attack.

It's not the same as a normal item. No matter who gets the Bombomb the SAME thing happens. It hits someone and it blows up and causes massive knockback. The Smashball initiates an ORIGINAL move UNIQUE to each character. Similar to how every character's neutral B is different. They all have different effects. All have different strengths and weaknesses. How could you not see this as part of their move set? It's not the same as picking up a LIGHT SABRE. And even if it is activated as an item, it UNLOCKS a uniqe move for each character. So in instance it boils down to being a move for each character.

Personally, if there was any debate for items being legal in Brawl the Smash Ball would be the only one I could understand. Though, with the addition of a Pity Smash (whatever it was called) I would be a little annoyed. If you could turn that off I'd be golden.

 

[Bassoonist]

Funny thing is, that doesn't really say much, it's inconsequential. At the end of the day, fun is subjective, it's different for everybody.

Exactly, so stop saying your way of fun is the only way of fun.

I don't see why you have such issues with tournament play. How does it hurt you? Do people jump in your window and force you to turn off items when you play Smash? I didn't think so.

 

[MSVZNF]

great ideas, also items may lend to the balancing of charactors as Mewtwo is pretty good with items

 

[Team Giza]

great ideas, also items may lend to the balancing of charactors as Mewtwo is pretty good with items

What? I mean I guess his throwing strength is pretty good... but... he really isn't that good with items. Show me something that shows that Mewtwo is good with items. Got any matches that demonstrate this?

 

[Spellman]

What? I mean I guess his throwing strength is pretty good... but... he really isn't that good with items. Show me something that shows that Mewtwo is good with items. Got any matches that demonstrate this?

I think it's mostly about swinging range with Mewtwo and items. Mewtwo swings far, I mean, the item is literally floating in front of him, after all.

 

[NES n00b]

Alot of you need to stop posting for a long time. Learn to think. Then try again.

 

[Team Giza]

I think it's mostly about swinging range with Mewtwo and items. Mewtwo swings far, I mean, the item is literally floating in front of him, after all.

Most of his item attacks are slow and very laggy. Yes his range is decent on some of them but they still aren't very great and easy to punish.

 

[MookieRah]

It's not the same as a normal item.

But it is still an item, and it is simply a unique item-based attack. It is NOT part of the moveset, and regardless, that is just semantics. It doesn't make them any less or more broke just cause you claim it's part of a moveset.

Personally, if there was any debate for items being legal in Brawl the Smash Ball would be the only one I could understand.

Why? They are different for every character as opposed to being *somewhat* static and they are imbalanced as all get out.

Alot of you need to stop posting for a long time. Learn to think. Then try again.

LOL. Too good.

 

[jamesbuc]

Exactly, so stop saying your way of fun is the only way of fun.

I don't see why you have such issues with tournament play. How does it hurt you? Do people jump in your window and force you to turn off items when you play Smash? I didn't think so.

Excuse me? Have you been reading through this thread or did you miss that the talk is 'meant' to be mainly about ordinary, casual play and not competetive play?

 

[orintemple]

Items are going to be a lot more balanced in Brawl but because of the random placing element I think they will still be banned in tournaments.

If you are just a casual player there is no reason NOT to use items and have all the fun you want but if you are training to be a tournament player then you just have to suck it up and play the way the tournament says to play.

As I said in a different thread; games played for money are a serious deal. Everything becomes serious no matter how frivolous it is to begin with when real money is put into play.

But when it comes to screwing around and having fun it is up to the players to decide how they want to play. Some people find making things as fair as possible the most fun way to play, other don't. People need to get over judging others for differences and learn to accept stuff. Of course this will never happen though because humans are idiots.

 

[A New England Winter]

There should be a branch of tournaments where you have the option to have any items on at any stage with any character...Although, there probably already is, but still...

 

[Samochan]

Real men use items..?

Seriously, take a look at that link and tell me if the marth player could have predicted or avoided a capsule timing an appearance like that and bumping him into motion sensor bomb and then getting owned by a throwable item from the same capsule from half across stage. That defies all odds, same like 7 stitches on one 4 stock match, but it still happens.

Randomness does not have place in competitive match where money is in place

Items = random and broken

Smash balls = are items and unbalanced and random

Items are the same or even better on brawl

Thus we can conclude that items are likely to get banned on brawl competitive tournaments

If you whine about competitive smash setting that has evolved to what it is now from the very beginning of the game's lifespan (cough, ssb64 anyone?), host your own tournaments with your own rulesets. Japanese only play with DL64 and FD, Frenchies play with only the neutral stages and no cp stages, while many others still play with Peach castle and Onett on. Many local game stores and schools hold ffa item tournaments. >_>

/thread

Mookie should have owned this thread about bazillion times already but it still lives. >_>

 

[A New England Winter]

But what about people who are poor and can't even afford to buy a single Wii (like me)? How exactly do we factor into your equation?

I don't want to mess around with the tourney formula. It seems to work for some people. But I want a branch of tournaments where you have items on, and you can pick any stage. I mean, it's not like it'd be that much harder to do than a normal tourney, and you'd have less people whining about it

...or something along those lines...

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

But what about people who are poor and can't even afford to buy a single Wii (like me)? How exactly do we factor into your equation?

I don't want to mess around with the tourney formula. It seems to work for some people. But I want a branch of tournaments where you have items on, and you can pick any stage. I mean, it's not like it'd be that much harder to do than a normal tourney, and you'd have less people whining about it

...or something along those lines...

Then have someone set up a tourney like that. If you want one, but can't afford to host one, convinve someone that shares your opinion to host one. Shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Samochan]

But what about people who are poor and can't even afford to buy a single Wii (like me)? How exactly do we factor into your equation?

If you're addressing to me...

I don't even own a controller, much less a cube, smash or wii. >_> This controller of mine was mainly bought by my friend and I invested 10 € to it. But without any cubes or wiis or smash discs or televisions I could bring to my own triweekly, I'm still hosting them. You just have to get enough people in there and bring sets for you.

 

[A New England Winter]

Then have someone set up a tourney like that. If you want one, but can't afford to host one, convinve someone that shares your opinion to host one. Shouldn't be that hard.

If you're addressing to me...

I don't even own a controller, much less a cube, smash or wii. >_> This controller of mine was mainly bought by my friend and I invested 10 € to it. But without any cubes or wiis or smash discs or televisions I could bring to my own triweekly, I'm still hosting them. You just have to get enough people in there and bring sets for you.

I see...Now I feel stupid...I'll try both of these out, and see where I get with them. Can't be all THAT hard to at least try, right?

@Samochan: I feel bad now...I'll give you my cube when I get a Wii

 

[flyinfilipino]

Oh my...after reading through this whole thread, I see that the majority of people can't read, and just want to turn this into the old "items in tournaments" argument because they know they can talk about that. People need to be more open-minded and less berating. Anyway, I think the original point of this thread has been lost.

 

[Micahc]

I say that whenever someone makes a new "Items in Tournies" thread we ban them and lock the thread. And then if someone makes any thread about an item they get a warning and their thread locked. Then we can have a decent competitive forum without scrubs trying to kill us.


That would freaking pwn.

 

[flyinfilipino]

This wasn't supposed to be an Items in Tournies thread.

 

[Shadic]

Yes, a board is totally more interesting when everybody has the same ideals and thoughts, so every post that somebody makes is merely complimented to by an "I agree! "

*Shadic sighs*

 

[EDreams]

Yes, a board is totally more interesting when everybody has the same ideals and thoughts, so every post that somebody makes is merely complimented to by an "I agree! "

*Shadic sighs*

You can have discussion and disagreements that actually make valid points, ones that aren't just mindlessly repeating the exact same ancient arguments that people have been rehashing for the past 4 or so years.

Those sort of posts are just as pointless as the "I agree"s.

 

[A New England Winter]

Yes, a board is totally more interesting when everybody has the same ideals and thoughts, so every post that somebody makes is merely complimented to by an "I agree! "

*Shadic sighs*

You know it cus, conformancy, man, it's like, the **** here.

Before you know it, we'll be getting flippy hair and slitting our wrists. >_>

 

[Micahc]

Yes, a board is totally more interesting when everybody has the same ideals and thoughts, so every post that somebody makes is merely complimented to by an "I agree! "

*Shadic sighs*

Go to Smogon, it's a competative Pokemon site. Everyone agrees with the rules, evasion clause, sleep clause, etc. But the thing is they still have intelligent debates without repeating the same crap over and over again. If you post something about tiers (or items in our case) then they lock the thread and you get cussed at. Smashboards would be freaking awesome like that, but we had a huge scrub infestation, so we aren't.

 

[Shadic]

Part of the reason these topics are so prevalent is because of the fact that the game isn't out yet. Either we discuss new information given to us (Not much recently), our plans for when we get it (gets old fast,), predictions, or topics of how the game should be played WHEN we get it (Tiers, items.)

We can't have too many intelligent discussions on this game, because it isn't out yet.

 

[Micahc]

Part of the reason these topics are so prevalent is because of the fact that the game isn't out yet. Either we discuss new information given to us (Not much recently), our plans for when we get it (gets old fast,), predictions, or topics of how the game should be played WHEN we get it (Tiers, items.)

We can't have too many intelligent discussions on this game, because it isn't out yet.

Can't we still have original ones though? People need to get more creative.

 

[Shadic]

Too many users, and a board that has been around for too long. Until the game comes out.. It's not likely.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I wish that, irregardless of the side you're on, you don't make condescending blanket statements. There's a difference between insulting genuine idiocy and insulting people who aren't you or equal to you in some fashion.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Too many users, and a board that has been around for too long. Until the game comes out.. It's not likely.

That is why it would help to lock threads that mean to mindlessly repeat the same flaccid arguments with exponential decreases in relevance. This board is a dog chasing its own tail.

 

[Saor Gael]

As I said in a different thread; games played for money are a serious deal. Everything becomes serious no matter how frivolous it is to begin with when real money is put into play.

But when it comes to screwing around and having fun it is up to the players to decide how they want to play. Some people find making things as fair as possible the most fun way to play, other don't. People need to get over judging others for differences and learn to accept stuff. Of course this will never happen though because humans are idiots.

It seems like people who play games for money should get better jobs.

I think the reason a lot of people dislike the professional mentality is that some professionals act as if they are truly superior to others. Terms like "scrub" and "n00b" don't help.

 

[NES n00b]

It seems like people who play games for money should get better jobs.

I think the reason a lot of people dislike the professional mentality is that some professionals act as if they are truly superior to others. Terms like "scrub" and "n00b" don't help.

Think for a little bit, and you will see how dumb the first statement is.

To the second statement, the term tourney*** or that "Fox only, no items, final destination." don't help. So. . . . . .what is your point if there ever was one?