Discussion: Capricious Design Elements, Situational Decision-Making, & Fair Item Use

[PopeOfChiliTown]

My post got overshadowed by Mookie's even though it said basically the same thing

 

[Blackshadow]

Mookie posted.


/thread.

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Could you have, when the fated meeting of Eddie's Ganon's foot and the capsule that defined his loss, confronted Eddie who was furious and told him that it was definitely OK for that to happen because the chances of it are really low?
.

I could've told him that. That would have been hilarious to behold. Also, don't make asinine statements about which group of people have more fun playing a video game. There are many ways to enjoy smash, and you can have just as much fun playing casually with a group of friends as you can setting up tournaments and testing each others skill.

 

[MookieRah]

My post got overshadowed by Mookie's even though it said basically the same thing

I went back and read your post and yeah, you did basically say what I did in less words. I'm just popular around here is all, but I got that way by posting like this, so yar don't get down.

Mookie posted.
/thread.

This thread is far from over. The OP hasn't responded yet, and judging from his posts he is adamant enough about his opinion to debate with me some. He seems really smart, it's just that he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does about the tournament scene, so it should be fun debating with him, and a lot of people will hopefully learn some stuff in the process.

Also, don't make asinine statements about which group of people have more fun playing a video game.

LOL. You do know this is in response to virtually EVERY casual player on earth right? I really think it's funny that you picked this of all things to argue about, because I have said that fun is relative about 50 million times. That still; however, doesn't change the fact that what I said was true. The tournament scene is often discredited as being "not fun" yet casual people don't understand how the competition keeps it new and refreshing. I have not ran into a casual player that has played this game as much as I have, PERIOD. Why? Well, I deduct that it is because I play in tournaments, because if it wasn't for that I would have moved onto something else. Based on that, who would you say got the most out of the game? The casual player boasting how items are as Sakurai intended on the tournament player that has been active since the release of the game and took it far beyond any possible intentions of it's creators?

I could've told him that. That would have been hilarious to behold.

I question that. Eddie gets REALLY mad. I very much doubt you'd have the balls to step in. He's also a pretty tall guy, and from what I remember he was a bit toned as well (not muscular, but definitely no weakling). If you did have the balls, you'd probably have a plastic nose by the end of the night.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I could've told him that. That would have been hilarious to behold. Also, don't make asinine statements about which group of people have more fun playing a video game. There are many ways to enjoy smash, and you can have just as much fun playing casually with a group of friends as you can setting up tournaments and testing each others skill.

Exactly, that's what he's saying! Fun is subjective!

However, he also states that by hsi experience, tourney goers had more fun with tourney rules than casuals just playing casually (is that right? that's how i understood it).

These are both facts.

 

[Blackshadow]

Problem is is that the OP hasn't posted since the first page...

EDIT: I just realised he's offline. I suppose you're right.

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Exactly, that's what he's saying! Fun is subjective!

However, he also states that by hsi experience, tourney goers had more fun with tourney rules than casuals just playing casually (is that right? that's how i understood it).

These are both facts.

Well, sure maybe by his experience. But by MY experience, I've never heard people laughing harder than when playing a good round of smash without caring about rules. Sometimes we get together to duke it out to our best. We even turn off items and disable a few levels. But the real fun for is when we set up rediculous rules like Ganondorf vs. Pichu only or Super Sudden Death mode with the Starman Item on very high (higly recommend this one) Both ways of play envelop totally different kinds of fun, and to ONLY play in one way is just limiting how much fun you can have with the game.

(Also, in 64, only Bumpers on very high is one of the funnest match settings you can possibly think of)

 

[Team Giza]

Just as planned
Seriously, items didn't work in melee. And unless major changes are made, they won't work in tournament melee either.

I have tried to put items on in play-to-win matches with some friends. Even though I came late to the tournament scene and never got to see tournaments with it. The problems are pretty clear and there is a good reason to shut them off. You can get rid of some of the major issues with an action replay but... it would kind of be weird to have a tournament with AR codes on right?

 

[MookieRah]

Well, sure maybe by his experience. But by MY experience, I've never heard people laughing harder than when playing a good round of smash without caring about rules. Sometimes we get together to duke it out to our best. We even turn off items and disable a few levels. But the real fun for is when we set up rediculous rules like Ganondorf vs. Pichu only or Super Sudden Death mode with the Starman Item on very high (higly recommend this one) Both ways of play envelop totally different kinds of fun, and to ONLY play in one way is just limiting how much fun you can have with the game.

Yeah, but the fact that most casual players don't play the game on a weekly basis yet a majority of the competitive players do tells me that the competitive players enjoy the game more. Also, you don't realize that the competitive players once played the game and still do play the game in ways you mentioned, just not at tournaments. So it seems to me that the competitive players have the best of both worlds and the casual players are refusing to enjoy the game in a competitive atmosphere.

 

[Mambo]

I do agree, it's all about the Benjamins. It's the direction the tourneyments took. It's more about who can exploit and use the fighting mechanics the best against someone else using the fighting machanics and that's a fine direction to take. I can see the items being the issue, but some of them swing the battle way too far when similar skilled players on the feild.

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Yeah, but the fact that most casual players don't play the game on a weekly basis yet a majority of the competitive players do tells me that the competitive players enjoy the game more. Also, you don't realize that the competitive players once played the game and still do play the game in ways you mentioned, just not at tournaments. So it seems to me that the competitive players have the best of both worlds and the casual players are refusing to enjoy the game in a competitive atmosphere.

Again, you're making statements that one group has more fun than the other. Please refrain from making these statements. There are people who have tried the tourney scene and DO NOT enjoy it. There are other people who LOVE the tourney scene that don't enjoy items at all. Don't imply that one group has more fun by playing a different way than another group, because NO ONE plays the game in the same way. I enjoy the game immensly in a competitive atmosphere, I just perfer to play with items on. So now I enjoy the best of both worlds, huh? (Hint: I do, but no more than anyone else; so can we stop this whole debate over who's playing the game right.)

 

[Chriso2989]

The simple and loveable phrase.

To each their own.

Maybe tournaments with items should become popular AS WELL, that'd cause an end to this. My one beef with my professional player friends is when they play with us casual folk they want there rules on. Buggers! Thats a majority rules situation I feel.

I play with items on and off. I can do pro rules and I can do casual. As long as I'm having fun, and I can have fun both ways. (Fun fun fun!)

 

[MookieRah]

Again, you're making statements that one group has more fun than the other. Please refrain from making these statements.

I said that it *seems* to me that we (competitive players) get more out of the game. Provide me with evidence of the contrary and we can debate it. So far you said casual players have more fun in one session than competitive players. Even if that were true, most casual players don't play the game as consistently as competitive players do, so overall competitive players would be getting more fun out of the game.

You know what, the more I think about it the more it makes sense that competitive players just simply enjoy the game more. I dunno, why else would we bother to learn and explore the game and take it to the extremes? It's definitely not because we don't enjoy the game! That's for **** sure! The only reason I didn't touch base on this before is because I didn't care about it at the time. It's just ironic that we are the ones being called out that we are taking fun away from the game yet we play it so much and still enjoy it after many years of intense melee action. The same could not be said about 99% of the casual community that plays it maybe once a year or sparingly by themselves, at get togethers, or at anime conventions.

Maybe tournaments with items should become popular AS WELL, that'd cause an end to this.

I'd like to see that, but so far everyone I propose this to just tends to ***** and whine about how they want someone else to do it. It's as if nobody is willing to try establishing their own rules they just want to impose their own thoughts onto the existing establishment and they, for some dumb reason, feel they are justified in doing so.

Now, with all that said: Playing in tournaments is not the only way to enjoy the game. Playing by our rules does not guarantee it will be fun for you. Not everyone likes or even wants to try a game like this in a serious competition; however, don't criticize us or get on your righteous soap boxes and tell us how Sakurai's intentions are the same as your personal opinions on the game and how tournaments "strip away" all that is smash. Don't try to act that just cause you play with your friends and enjoy random stuff is the only way to play. Also, don't assume you are having more fun than us either, cause I can and will debate that with you.

 

[Fordo35@aol.com]

You (and many others) say that you don't care about changing other peoples' opinions. But if that were true, why did you make this post?

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're implying that the only possible reason I would have to make this post is to change other peoples' opinions. That's not the case. Writing is an effective way for me to organize my thoughts about a subject. I briefly edited and posted what I wrote in order to get feedback and to start a discussion about Brawl's more unpredictable design elements and how it effects Situational Decision-Making, strategy and so forth. I feel that items and similar elements are going to play a different role in Brawl than they did in Melee, and I think that they may be able to add a significant dimension of depth and increased possibilities to combat without making the game unfair.

The primary reason I talked about tournaments to begin with is not because I want to change the way people play (again, I could really care less, do what makes you happy), but rather to address issues and concerns about the fairness or balance of game play design elements which in turn became the reasons for currently accepted tournament conventions and rules.

Again, I could really care less about these sacred rules, and in hindsight I probably could have curtailed these kinds of conversations if I was more clear. In essence, the only reason I talk about tournament rules in general is that they are a short-hand way of explaining issues of balance.

What I am suggesting is that the item system in Brawl will be balanced enough that it would be possible to have a fair test of skills without having to restrict them or any other component of the game's design. Thus, they would be fair enough for use in tournaments, (which is a lot easier to say). I'm not claiming that tournaments SHOULD be done one way or another, that's up for people to decide themselves.

I'm saying that items like the Smash Ball and the inevitable battle over it could have a place in a fair, balanced match, and in order to prove that I need to first contend with the conventional wisdom which says they couldn't. There are obviously good, or at the very least persuasive, reasons for these rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will apply in a completely re-designed and updated version of the game that has already addressed such designer-unintended tournament staples as wave-dashing. I think it's very likely that they had competitive play and skill-test matches in mind when they designed Brawl and thus sought to achieve balance in all standard core design elements, from items to stages to character strengths and beyond.

Either way, I am not attacking conventional tournament play or the way you prefer to play so much as I am defending the idea of items and other chance-influenced events. It's the principle I'm interested in, because I feel that even if items are so well implemented that they are a completely fair gameplay mechanic, the antiquated mode of thinking says that unpredictable or chaotic elements of the game's design should be circumvented for 'serious play', regardless of how the game was originally designed or implemented.

I'm merely offering up a different intellectual viewpoint, not arguing for you to change your personal habits. There's nothing wrong with that, and I resent your attempts to box me and my ideas into your narrow outlook.

Whether you think it's fun or not is irrelevent, tourneys are played for money, so luck and randomness should be reduced as much as possible, ie turning off items and banning stages like Big Blue, Icicle mountain, etc. etc.

Tournaments will not consider adding luck and unneeded chaos to the game because someone thinks it's more fun.

I don't think you really understand my stance. I am not suggesting that tournaments should be more luck-based and 'unnecessarily' chaotic, nor am I supporting said attributed stance (or any stance, for that matter) simply on the grounds that somebody thinks it would be more fun. That's simply not a good enough reason for anything, beyond personal preference. Overall a ridiculous statement, and I refuse to have it attributed to me.

The crux of my argument is that chance-based events do not necessarily preclude skill, so I'd have to disagree with your notion that randomness should be reduced as much as possible. I understand the need to reduce luck, but I believe that there's a big difference between luck and impartial randomness. Yes, I know it sucks when you get knocked into something explosive that suddenly appears, it's extraordinarily unfortunate. I'm not unsympathetic and I'm not narrow-minded.

But maybe you realize this. Maybe you see that tournaments are playd for money and that there shouldn't be luck involved. Then why do you have a problem with people turnng off items, etc.? I mean, they're not in a tournamnet why would they still suck the fun out of the game? Answer: They have more fun playing without items, and trying to cange how they have fun is just ignorant and rude.

Thanks again for claiming that I'm trying to change the way other people I could honestly care less about have fun, and for calling me ignorant and rude.

And for putting words in my mouth.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I know you mean well, but really any post like this boils down to the same thing: You want to project your idea of 'Fun' on other people.

I appreciate your apparently redeeming level of understanding, but unfortunately you misunderstand me. As I said right above, you've essentially been putting words in my mouth. Just because you claim that my post 'boils down to' something doesn't mean that's what I'm trying to communicate. Rather, it betrays your misguided conception of what my words mean. We do not share the same understanding, and it is ignorant and rude for you to misrepresent your interpretation as my actual views.

So no, I am not trying to project my idea of fun on other people. Hopefully, this will clarify the apparent confusion.

It seems like some people are more interested in vehemently defending the supremacy of their way of thinking than they are in a hypothetical discussion of Capricious Design Elements, Situational Decision-Making, and The Fair Use of Items.

This is unfortunate.

And for the last time people: SCROLLING STAGES ARE NOT BANNED.

Precisely what I've been saying. I am very much aware of this, and your own statement illustrates the wide-spread misconception that they are.

It also encapsulates what I'm really concerned with. I don't really care how people play in tournaments, or what makes them happy. What I do care about is when I'm playing a 'serious' match with someone I know and they refuse to play on a scrolling stage (or any stage other than Final Destination) because 'That's the way tournament or serious players play'.

My aim is to show that you can have a 'real' match in a chaotic or unstable setting. I personally enjoy combat in a shifting, moving environment because it forces you to adapt not only to your opponent, but your surroundings as well. This on-the-fly thinking, adapting and decision making is what makes playing against a human so exciting and challenging. It exemplifies the true spirit of conflict fighting. Or at least what my life and experiences have taught me about open combat.

 

[Xanderous]

This video posted earlier destroys your argument, Director:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44i-EM2thqo

 

[Fordo35@aol.com]

Every items topic I've seen so far brings up how much fun the randomness of them are or something. Can we stop bringing up fun? Fun is subjective, its completely irrelevant in a debate.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, fun is subjective. I completely understand why playing without items, especially in Melee, is what you and your buddies enjoy the most.

I actually tried to convince the current group of people I play with to turn items off when we first met, but I had to get used to playing with most of them on nonetheless and I feel like they've opened me up to a completely different kind of play style. In general, it seems that most items are better suited as improvised throwing weapons, at least against my buddies. We don't play with the Heart Container, Hammer, and I think a few others.

I'm still casually trying to get them to play a match or two with items off and on a few stages they seem to hate, but that's just for variety.

It pisses me off (This is not towards you, Fordo, or anybody in particular) how people tend to say "Well geez, its only a game" when somebody wins and gets excited/celebrates/rubs it in the loser's face. When I win at something, I don't want to shake the other person's hand and tell them they did well. I want to get excited in my victory, and I don't get angry when somebody else does this, it only makes me want to challenge them again and hopefully defeat them. If its only a game, why not get silly about winning and losing?

I agree with you here, too. I feel that the whole 'It's just a game' mentality is really self-defeating, especially if you were just trying your hardest to win.

That whole rant was completely worthless to the topic, but I wanted to get it off my chest.

I don't think so, I really enjoyed hearing your perspective, I found it refreshing. Thanks for sharing!

 

[maxieman]

judging from the replies I'm sure at least a few of you have a dictonary strapped to your face! Good thing I read Literate fantasy, or I'd have no idea what half these words even mean!

 

[MookieRah]

but rather to address issues and concerns about the fairness or balance of game play design elements which in turn became the reasons for currently accepted tournament conventions and rules.

Items aren't fair. Period. There is a *slight* skill in using them, but in general they just add randomness. They are a fun addition, but they have no place in a competitive atmosphere.

What I am suggesting is that the item system in Brawl will be balanced enough that it would be possible to have a fair test of skills without having to restrict them or any other component of the game's design.

Well it's not. I mean, have you looked at all the items? This isn't a serious question, but honestly in all fairness could you say they are truly balanced? Also, there is still the random spawn points, random spawn times, and random item spawned issue. It still is in place.

The crux of my argument is that chance-based events do not necessarily preclude skill, so I'd have to disagree with your notion that randomness should be reduced as much as possible.

You are right, there is a skill in actively working with the given situation, even if it benefits your opponent one *could* use that against him; this is why you will never see a good competitive player lose to a casual player who hordes items and are playing by their rules;however, it is still unfair to be placed in a scenario with the odds against you merely because of a random attribute. When you are dealing with a competition of skill with money on the line fairness is a big issue.

I think it's very likely that they had competitive play and skill-test matches in mind when they designed Brawl and thus sought to achieve balance in all standard core design elements, from items to stages to character strengths and beyond.

You think it's very likely? Then why does Samus not have an approach now because of her lack of missile canceling AND the nerfing of all of her projectiles? Why would they remove DJC from Yoshi, who needs everything he can get, but keep it with Peach who still has float canceling AND recieved major buffs everywhere else with only a minor nerf to her downsmash?

I think it's very likely they aren't putting in much for competitive play, either that or they don't know what the heck they are doing.

I'm saying that items like the Smash Ball and the inevitable battle over it could have a place in a fair, balanced match, and in order to prove that I need to first contend with the conventional wisdom which says they couldn't.

They aren't balanced, period. Some great characters have great Final Smashes and decent characters have horrible Final Smashes. It still spawns randomly, at a random place, and has random movements. Yeah, there would be *some* skill involved with using that against your opponent, or towards getting it, but overall characters with poor final smashes would just get screwed in the end.

Either way, I am not attacking conventional tournament play or the way you prefer to play so much as I am defending the idea of items and other chance-influenced events.

Your first post was a clear indication that you do not realize how much is actually going on without items. You try to make arguments regarding being unpredictable in real life fighting but you don't seem to realize the same kind of mind games are going on in smash. It is apparent that you are unaware of this and think that items would generate such "unpredictable" nature of the fight without gouging at skill, but they won't.

I'd say the crux of your argument isn't the nature of the randomness of items, it is the lacking of knowledge about high level competitive play and then hiding behind this wall of "oh well I'm not telling you what I you should do in tournaments though I will criticize it so don't debate me harshly" nonsense.

BTW, I already did a point to point debate with everything you said in your first post. Go back and look it up.

judging from the replies I'm sure at least a few of you have a dictonary strapped to your face!

Often times when one is debating on a subject they tend to misuse or hide behind big words. That's why I'm good friends with dictionary.com, that way I can fully understand and add words to my vocabulary that people throw at me. Dunno about everyone else.

PS: The internet is serious business XD.

 

[Micahc]

What is it with all these ****ed item threads popping up?! Give it a few more pages and we're gonna have n00bs saying that the competitive players interfere and accost them when scrubs instigate it. The OP sounded intelligent but all it was, was a rehash of all the other scrub arguments. Items do not add depth, people hate them, and when you bring them up, people hate you. Items won't be allowed, that's nearly guaranteed, unless Sakurai does something drastic to them. Yes it's a new game, but you'd have to do far more than change a freaking physics engine to make a hammer balanced.

DEAR FREAKING GOD LET THE ARGUMENT DIE.

And I find the game "more fun" without items. Just because you can't win without luck doesn't mean you have to make other people lose because of it.

 

[WoapGang]

I feel so stupid reading this thread.....all of you are using big words.....I can invent words too.....Festisio, THERE.....what now

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

I said that it *seems* to me that we (competitive players) get more out of the game. Provide me with evidence of the contrary and we can debate it. So far you said casual players have more fun in one session than competitive players. Even if that were true, most casual players don't play the game as consistently as competitive players do, so overall competitive players would be getting more fun out of the game.

You know what, the more I think about it the more it makes sense that competitive players just simply enjoy the game more. I dunno, why else would we bother to learn and explore the game and take it to the extremes? It's definitely not because we don't enjoy the game! That's for **** sure! The only reason I didn't touch base on this before is because I didn't care about it at the time. It's just ironic that we are the ones being called out that we are taking fun away from the game yet we play it so much and still enjoy it after many years of intense melee action. The same could not be said about 99% of the casual community that plays it maybe once a year or sparingly by themselves, at get togethers, or at anime conventions.
I'd like to see that, but so far everyone I propose this to just tends to ***** and whine about how they want someone else to do it. It's as if nobody is willing to try establishing their own rules they just want to impose their own thoughts onto the existing establishment and they, for some dumb reason, feel they are justified in doing so.

Now, with all that said: Playing in tournaments is not the only way to enjoy the game. Playing by our rules does not guarantee it will be fun for you. Not everyone likes or even wants to try a game like this in a serious competition; however, don't criticize us or get on your righteous soap boxes and tell us how Sakurai's intentions are the same as your personal opinions on the game and how tournaments "strip away" all that is smash. Don't try to act that just cause you play with your friends and enjoy random stuff is the only way to play. Also, don't assume you are having more fun than us either, cause I can and will debate that with you.

I never said casuals had more fun than tourney-goers, I said there's no way to say who has more fun; because everyone enjoys different aspects of the game to varying degrees and that fun is QUALITATIVE. Learning techniques and exploiting glitches is not the only way to have fun with the game. I don't know how to wavedash, and the only reason I haven't bothered is that I don't need to win to have fun. That's it. I play smash almost religiously. I played it with many friends over the years when Smash 64 first came out, and when Melee came out, we switched right over and have logged god-knows how many hours beating the ever-loving snot out of each other. I'm not playing the game any more right than you are, and I'm not claiming that there is anything wrong with tournament play. But to somehow claim that how much fun you have with something is equal to how much time you invest in it is elitist and imbecillic.

 

[Corax The Cold]

theres no wrong way to paly smash, this is also a "who cares" argument, there arent people saying "hmm idk if i wanna play casually or not"

 

[MookieRah]

@Jenkins: Read that last paragraph of mine that you quoted.

 

[Puffs]

Items like the star rod are broken. Items such as the barrel cannon and transformation items, however, are perfectly acceptable. You can choose what to do with the barrel cannon whether you're on the giving or receiving end, and anyone can work their way around a giant or metal foe.

 

[Cless]

How's the Star Rod broken?

 

[Puffs]

How's the Star Rod broken?

Ever thrown one at another player? Ever had one chucked at you?

 

[Eaode]

Fordo, I think you misunderstood my post a bit, as I may have misinterpreted yours. But alas, I'm really too lazy to clarify anything again, especially with MookieRah in here saying everything I'm thinking but 100 times better than I can say it.

GO MOOKIE

 

[Star105]

I was inspired to write about the role of items and chance-based events (like item spawning or stage interaction) in Smash Bros after looking at the new Team Healer item. To me, this is another example of the carefully designed, lovingly created elements of Smash which keep the game interesting, that the developers labored over for countless hours to properly implement, and which will ultimately be rejected and cast aside by a large part of the community. Sounds almost ungrateful....

These are my thoughts, you're in no way obliged to accept them. I can't hope to control what other people will say, but I'm more interested in other people's personal views on the role of capricious design elements, like Team Healer or scrolling stages, as well as the strategies and levels of depth which they lend to the game. If at any point it seems like I'm implying that the designers intended for the game to be enjoyed with items on, I probably am. How totally unreasonable, eh?

I think that Smash Balls, as well as all other items, should be allowed in tourneys, because whether we like it or not, they're part of the game's core design. Sure, the designers have made Smash customizable and flexible enough that everyone can be happy, but in general I have issues with people who want to strip out elements of a game's design and play on the most flat, non-moving levels available "because that's the only way you can see who truly is more skilled."

Sometimes, it seems like people who defensively argue this position are more interested in Ego Trippin' over a video game than um... having fun playing a video game?

Yes, competition is important, but you can't (and won't) always win and when you set up sterile, static conditions where-in players better acclimated to said conditions can more consistently execute winning strategies without worrying about improvising to varying circumstances, you're not only eliminating a whole spectrum of possibilities and additional strategies, you're cutting out the very unpredictability that is the soul of real combat.

I don't know how many of you guys actually practice martial arts, knocked somebody out, taken one to the head, or have gotten into a real BRAWL, but fighting in the real world isn't clean cut, even in the comparatively sterile environment of organized, style-specific tournaments.

Fighting is about thinking on your toes, responding to the unpredictable and reacting unpredictably. It's about living in the moment, being completely open to the unexpected.

With every new element of the design Masahiro Sakurai reveals, it becomes more apparent to me how much he really wants SSBB to be hectic, chaotic, exciting, and unpredictable: like a real bar BRAWL, preferably with a screen full of players. This was not designed purely as a 1 on 1 fighting game, it has more depth to it than that.

Before I go any further, let's look at the new Team Healer item, which serves as a great model for the inherent balance intentionally designed into item play. It's an item that promotes team play, and it does something that almost every hardcore player considers 'cheap' or 'broken': it recovers health! And the higher your damage, the more you recover.

But wait, it's not that simple. It can only recover the health of the person who it's thrown at, not the person who picks it up. And if it somehow hits a member of the opposite team, they get healed instead.

So, in actuality, it's not a broken, pure-luck item that should be banned from tournament play, but rather just another piece on the board, which can be manipulated into the flow of combat and turned to a team's advantage by either side, even after it has been picked up.

The Smash Ball functions in the same way, because even after it has finally been cracked open and claimed, there are still opportunities to turn the situation to your advantage, or even claim it for your own.

A Smash Ball-related quote by Mr. Masahiro Sakurai best sums up this crucial core design principle: "Do you use it as soon as you get it? Or save it for later? Do you run from an enemy who got it? Or do you chase him? You’ll need instant SITUATIONAL decision-making!" [My emphasis]

For every inherent winning strategy connected to an item, there is a counter-strategy.

A truly skilled fighter doesn't bemoan or curse an item presenting itself closer to his opponent, instead he factors this chance into his strategy and turns his opponent's fortune into his own victory.

Every item, from the Smash Ball to the Golden Hammer to the Assist Trophies, has some kind of built-in balance mechanism, some kind of weakness or opportunity to exploit, even when on the receiving end.

You'd be hard pressed to find a truly skilled Fox, Falco or Ness player who doesn't delight at the prospect of facing an opponent equipped with projectile-based items. "Turn on Ray Guns and Super Scopes? Be my guest!"

I take solace in the fact that it seems Mr. Masahiro Sakurai and his team have endeavored to instill chaos and whimsical fun into their design wherever possible, from levels to items to characters, in order to keep the game play fresh and the combat up in the air. Sometimes even literally.

FINALLY A REASONABLE ARGUEMENT ON THIS SUBJECT!!!!!!!!

stop the arguements on this please

everybody can't be satisfied with the game so they try to find a happy median

 

[Flamesamurai]

I love you dude

 

[Fordo35@aol.com]

I just finished reading every post in this thread. It's interesting to see different people's reactions. I originally intended to respond to points as they came up, but I had to leave the computer towards the end of writing my response to Eaode. I posted it when I came back. I then started to move on to different posts, but obligations got in the way of writing. I then felt compelled to read all fives pages. Even as I write this I am pressed for time, forced to multi-task, and unfortunately my life refuses to move slowly enough to allow me to leisurely discuss these issues as properly as they deserve.

I have to admit, I'm rather disappointed with the apparent focus on tournament play, I honestly feel that people are getting WAYYY too hung up about it, when in truth I'm not really all that concerned right now with talking about tournament play. I've explained this already, but I know I will have to again in the near future.

I have never deluded myself with the notion that my words could change the tournament scene. Despite what rather presumptuous and defensive people have said about me, I have participated in organized play and understand the real, practical reasons for the rules. I'm also sure that as time goes on, aspects of Brawl will prove to be too exploitive, and tournament concessions will have to be made.

I've definitely learned from this experience that it is absolutely vital for me to be clear about my thoughts, musings, and opinions in the first post I make, in order to prevent other people from misinterpreting my ideas or taking them out of context.

It's also apparent that Mr. MookieRah really wants my attention.

I respect the amount of time and effort you have put into your writing, although I have some specific qualms with the manner in which you chose to express yourself. However, that is neither here nor there.

There are other posts, some that predate your own, that I would have liked to address first. However, out of respect for your efforts and the burning passion for Smash Bros. which you have so eloquently expressed, I will respond to you next and as very soon as my schedule permits.

I look forward to the time when I will be able to relax with a steaming cup of marshmallow hot chocolate and discuss Smash with you. I believe that my views will prove to be quite a bit more complex than you may or may not currently perceive them to be, although hopefully stimulating nonetheless.

For this reason, I would caution you against putting words in my mouth or speculating about things which you cannot be certain of. Doing so will ultimately prove a waste.

I also wanted to point out that I'm primarily concerned with Brawl, which has yet to reveal all its secrets to us and as an unreleased game is perfect for my kind of idealistic speculation. Again, it is my hope that the game's design will be balanced enough that its more chaotic and mercurial elements, like sliding boxes or the Ultimate Chimera, won't get in the way of the most competitive and skill-intensive players. It is my sincere wish that I will be able to one day soon witness Brawl play of the absolute highest caliber with all its most crazy, explosive and exciting elements still intact: a complex and elaborate interplay between players and items and environment, and that it may preserve the dance-like exchanges that Melee's most competitive players have been able to perform.

By the way, MookieRah, if you want me to play Devil's Advocate for your points which I either don't disagree with or find to be immaterial, please let me know.

So until then, I wish you all good health, and hope that I am fortunate enough to face the trials before me without dire consequence.

And thank you, Flamesamurai!

 

[Flamesamurai]

Can i join in this debate? Ok first ignore my bad spelling i just got off WoW.

Ok i having never gone too a tournament yet. i have been wanting too go too one i will no doubt be ignored somewhat.

So i get the reasoning for both sides of the argument im in the middle i as mookierah has said have not been playing melee every day because i dont have my disk anymore and i dont have anyone too play with other then my step dad. who i can fight and be equal with. i know that if i went too a tournament i would get my but whooped but i would have fun and learn. I would be on my way too one if i wasent so lazy and would search for one near Philly.

But now im going off topic here so lets get back too this item use thing ( i forgot what i was gonna say and what you guys are arguing about so im gonna be stating my opinion) Whats fair and whats not too me i think that anything other then a Heart hammer red shell lips stick( i cant use that well though so yeah...) And starman are ok.


i think i forgot some but anyway and i hate playing on ice sickle mountain and that f-zero one thats on the racetrack so i can see why they were banned but again mookie will say something like (and im not accusing you of anything im just going by what ive read and so far your temperament that ive seen) you havent seen that one guy do this one thing at this one level that made it banned like the fox camping thing on what was it dk japes? i agree but i dont have any info on it so i cant use that if you got a vid it may help.

I guess thats all i can think of saying till a reread this thread. Hope you read this.

 

[MookieRah]

There are other posts, some that predate your own, that I would have liked to address first. However, out of respect for your efforts and the burning passion for Smash Bros. which you have so eloquently expressed, I will respond to you next and as very soon as my schedule permits.

Nah dude, they posted first so you should address that asap. I don't want to prevent other people from expressing their opinions.

although I have some specific qualms with the manner in which you chose to express yourself. However, that is neither here nor there.

Yeah, I wasn't in the best of moods when I posted at first. I had just used up all my patient points for the hour on a previous thread with a similar subject (I'm starting to dislike tournament rules.) so I unjustly got pretty cantankerous with my early responses. For that I apologize, cause you have expressed your opinions calmy throughout and you were undeserving of my anger at the time.

I also wanted to point out that I'm primarily concerned with Brawl, which has yet to reveal all its secrets to us and as an unreleased game is perfect for my kind of idealistic speculation. Again, it is my hope that the game's design will be balanced enough that its more chaotic and mercurial elements, like sliding boxes or the Ultimate Chimera, won't get in the way of the most competitive and skill-intensive players. It is my sincere wish that I will be able to one day soon witness Brawl play of the absolute highest caliber with all its most crazy, explosive and exciting elements still intact: a complex and elaborate interplay between players and items and environment, and that it may preserve the dance-like exchanges that Melee's most competitive players have been able to perform.

Did you win any writing awards for that? If not, here's a pulitzer :-P.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I used to agree with you, but then I realized that thier are some that have "lacking knowledge" to obtain a career. Thus, these people earn money via competitive Smash...

I agree, accept im money matches!

 

[Red Mage16]

I'd like to say that it has been a pleasure to read both of your points, and I appreciate a good, (mostly) civil debate. More people should learn to articulate and control themselves like you two.

 

[MookieRah]

I used to agree with you, but then I realized that thier are some that have "lacking knowledge" to obtain a career. Thus, these people earn money via competitive Smash...

Congrats on making a ridiculous assumption to protect your fragile ego! Good jeorb!

And this ladies and gentlemen, is why sometimes I get frustrated in my posts. Please, posts like that only make you look bad, as it shows how ignorant you can be. I bet you don't tell the high school football star that he has no life for being awesome at football.

The game is just a hobby people. I don't know many pros that have made their lives based solely around this game, not even M2King is that dedicated to smash.

 

[M.K]

I love your post, Fordo. I actually don't care about tournament rules and such, but if/when people berate me for not participating in the tournament scene/critisize my rules/pressure me to play a certain way (which you will find on MANY occasions here) I get pissed.

 

[Shadic]

And the majority of people want it this way because it has been shown that it works, and that this is probably the best ruleset.

Probably, yeah.

So the Earth is considered round now because the majority of the people want it that way too?

You're comparing a fact to the general consensus of a group of people, of which I have not. I've never argued that items in the game won't make it unfair sometimes, but it WAS a group of people that decided that the amount of randomness with items in play was unsuitable for a tournament. It's not a fact that items (and unfairness) cannot be in Smash Tournaments, but it's an idea that enough people follow to still have it acted upon. That would be an idea reached by a group of people.

You guys seem quick to disregard our reasoning, yet not that long ago we felt the same way as you. That's the thing that you refuse to understand..

I've never disregarded your reasoning. For the record, I agree with items not being in Melee tournaments. While I wouldn't mind certain items being in the game, I think that if people are willing to have big dollars on a match, such randomness should not determine the outcome. You seem to enjoy acting as if I'm spouting opinions that I have not.

Funny how the only people that disagree with Mookie are people that are new to the game.

Funny, I've been registered here since 2003. I've played Smash since the original came out. Making accusations and assumptions just makes you look ignorant.


Funny, if people hadn't started shoving opinions in my mouth in an overly defensive manner, I wouldn't even have to post this.

 

[Xanderous]

I love your post, Fordo. I actually don't care about tournament rules and such, but if/when people berate me for not participating in the tournament scene/critisize my rules/pressure me to play a certain way (which you will find on MANY occasions here) I get pissed.

I've *never* seen anyone step out and insult a casual player for not joining tournaments.

@Shadic: What? You just said you agreed with him. I'm not even talking about you.

 

[Flamesamurai]

Dang you missed my post.

 

[M.K]

I've *never* seen anyone step out and insult a casual player for not joining tournaments.

@Shadic: What? You just said you agreed with him. I'm not even talking about you.

Ok, so since you've never seen it, it doesn't exist? I'm sorry, this isn't really the time to argue or have any problem with me. My real life really crapped out on me today. If I sound harsh, I'm sorry, you aren't doing anything wrong. Just please know that it *does* happen, regardless if you have seen it or not.

Also, see Shadic's last quote for my feelings.