Discussing Zelda's weaknesses - Topic: Character Approaching: #5 Wario

[MrEh]

- Things MKs commonly do that we might be able to punish on approach

Nothing. Unless we count not spacing as a common mistake, but it is a very uncommon sight against better players.

most MKs know they can do pretty much whatever they want, so they have a tendency to get a bit over-aggro at times....

Maybe those scrub MKs.

Even when MK is aggro against Zelda, Zelda fares poorly at defending herself, and MK would have to make a BIG mistake in order to be heavily punished. Even slightly misspaced aerials or tilts are still difficult to punish. Like, the only way Zelda can punish MK is if MK is not spacing entirely, and spacing should be second nature to anything with a sword.

- Best moves to approach with

A shield. Seriously.

- Moves you should never try to approach with

Teleport attack - Might work once or twice and misses easily if your not used to it and easily punishable if the opponent uses a fast character or didn't freak out hehe. But I would wait for him to go on the offensive first, so that my teleport hits from his back, then grab + up.

Self explanitory.

- Options vs. Planker Knights

Shoot Dins. As sad as it sounds, Zelda can't do anything else.

 

[KayLo!]

@"A shield": And then what? What's the best thing to do OOS?

I should ask Bobby to come in here and explain how he approaches MKs. Since he's obviously winning against some.

Or Riot. Or AzN. Or Mars. Come on, people, don't be shy.

 

[MrEh]

@"A shield": And then what? What's the best thing to do OOS?

Depends on what he hits you with. If MK decides he's going to put up a wall of retreating aerials, then attempting to challenge that is won't get anywhere; he obviously has too much range. MK will have to make a mistake in order for Zelda to even touch him. This is the big problem with MK; you're reliant on him not spacing or reading his swings entirely in order to get hits in.

My usual options in punishing involve a lot of Dtilts, but OoS aerials also work if you know they will hit. OoS Usmash is an option as well provided the positioning is correct. The important thing is to understand is if the punish is worth going for. Because again, getting hit due to overextending is really bad.

 

[JuJux]

@"A shield": And then what? What's the best thing to do OOS?

As MrEh says, Shield is the best way to approach him lol, mix up with some dash grabs.
I mix up QDA OOS, Dash grab OOS (or shield grab :/ ..), Dsmash OOS, Dtilt OOS (I know it's just a buffer after shielding and not an OOS), Usmash OOS or SH Bair OOS if he's behind me, depending on how close he is to me.
Perfect shield is your best friend here ...

 

[KayLo!]

I....

I lost interest in running this thread, tbh, lol! ;; If somebody wants to take it over, be my guest.

In the meantime, it might be nice if we discussed approaching Olimar a bit.... I know mountain wanted some advice on that.

 

[GreyFox86]

I can get it for you.

 

[KayLo!]

Sweet, I'll let Kata know so he can make you OP.

 

[GreyFox86]

Sweet deal. :D

 

[Kataefi]

Okay cool grey you are now the official thread owner...

treat it well!

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Gotta love that new second post...

On-topic: So, what'll happen now GreyFox? Is the discussion going to carry on where it was left off? (a.k.a. how to approach Olimar)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I....

I lost interest in running this thread, tbh, lol! ;; If somebody wants to take it over, be my guest.

In the meantime, it might be nice if we discussed approaching Olimar a bit.... I know mountain wanted some advice on that.

**** kaylo thought you would of done it longer than for a week what a shame.

 

[KayLo!]

My laziness is practically world-renowned by now...... and I'm a Gemini. You do the math.

I vote we at least discuss Olimar a little, mostly because I feel guilty for dropping this before we got to him for mountain. ;-;

 

[mountain_tiger]

My laziness is practically world-renowned by now...... and I'm a Gemini. You do the math.

I vote we at least discuss Olimar a little, mostly because I feel guilty for dropping this before we got to him for mountain. ;-;

Don't worry about it. Snake and Mk are both difficult for me to approach too.

Whenever I try and approach Olimar, I always get pivot grabbed before I get close to within range. :embarrass The only Olimar I've ever won against was a noob who didn't know what DI was (40-death combo with DTilt x 13 > DSmash). Any Olimars that are semi-good are difficult for me to even touch...

And if anything, your most well-renowned trait is constantly facepalming your brains out.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

My laziness is practically world-renowned by now...... and I'm a Gemini. You do the math.

I vote we at least discuss Olimar a little, mostly because I feel guilty for dropping this before we got to him for mountain. ;-;

I don't know what you being a gemini has to do with laziness I'm not into the astrology stuff. But it's whatever I guess at least you put in on the right track and got the ball rolling.

I'm not sure the approach for different character is going to change too much. Walk to shield or Dash to Shield. Empty shorty Hops. SH AD just gotta mix it up use platforms and such etc.

 

[GreyFox86]

Updated OP

 

[KayLo!]

I'm not sure the approach for different character is going to change too much. Walk to shield or Dash to Shield. Empty shorty Hops. SH AD just gotta mix it up use platforms and such etc.

If you walk/dash > shield vs. characters with good pivot grabs (like..... say..... OLIMAR, who we're discussing right now), you'll get *****. Yoshi is another character your strategy doesn't work on. Peach as well since she pressures shields like a mother****er. (There are more, I'm just giving you a few examples to prove my point.)

Sorry, but you're wrong. Approaching isn't the same vs. every character. Get over it and contribute, or don't post until the next topic rolls around.

 

[GreyFox86]

Since we are talking about Olimar, I would like to put in my two cents about this.

Olimar will camp you hard. He has nothing to lose in this matchup. From my experience in this, approaching on the ground or air is close to impossible. Honestly you have to play opposite against him. If he is on the ground your in the air and vice versa. At any time you don't get pivot grabbed by him is good for you. I'm not sure how else your supposed to get in on him and his campy ways.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I have never fought a good Olimar as Zelda before... Just a thought, what if you use Ftilt? It turns an already huge hitbox into an even bigger one should it hit.

Yea I'm pretty useless since I have no knowledge about that small ba*****.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Zelda is the best **** character if your oppenent doesn't know what they are doing. I just picked her up again after dropping her and i realized why i liked her so much in the first place, she is soooooooooooooo fun to play with.

 

[-Mars-]

Why thank you for telling us that in a thread about Zelda's weaknesses.

 

[Elder Sister]

haha lol@^

tbqh, i dont have much experience with oli, but the ones i fought so far ***** me hard
but i have to agree with grey. also mindgames are your best friends.
hope someone with more experience can contribute to this.

 

[JuJux]

I always hesitate hugely before posting here :/ ... because of the difference between european and american metagames about some characters especially for characters like Olimar.

Against campy olimar I camp so hard at middle/far distance ... I just watch out for pikmins he's throwing and reflect white and purple pikmins (and I dodge or Nair the other pikmins).
Reflecting white and purple pikmins forces olimar to use his shield/DownB, and you can try some approaches with dash attack or dash grab (this is why it's important not to be TOO far from olimar.). And if he doesn't shield or DownB :
If the purple pikmin touches him : this is your best opportunity to approach him, don't pass it up, srly lol.
If he runs towards you with a white pikmin on him to dash grab : Throw a din to the ground, with good timing, even if you're grabbed, your Din passes on and explodes before he has the time to throw you (really hard to do i know.).

You can mindgame other unsafe approaches like SHAD'ing Dtilt (lock ?) to dsmash when he's trying to pivot grab you, but the timing is REALLY STRICT. Use it just as a mindgame, if it works you can take a stock off to olimar.

If you HIT HIM ONCE !, do your best to never let him camp again before he loses his stock lol.

Oh ! YOU CAN APPROCH OLIMAR EASILY !

Spoiler

If he's tripping LOLOLOL ... >.o ..

 

[GreyFox86]

Zelda is the best **** character if your oppenent doesn't know what they are doing. I just picked her up again after dropping her and i realized why i liked her so much in the first place, she is soooooooooooooo fun to play with.

Please keep it topic related. Otherwise I'm gonna have to report you. I don't really wanna have to do that to you sir.

@JuJux: You know I've tried reflecting the White/Purple ones back at him. They always seem to get caught by the blades of Nayru's thus either killing the poor thing or giving it a crappy return. Though I dont think I've returned one in full back at him. Hmmmm

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you walk/dash > shield vs. characters with good pivot grabs (like..... say..... OLIMAR, who we're discussing right now), you'll get *****. Yoshi is another character your strategy doesn't work on. Peach as well since she pressures shields like a mother****er. (There are more, I'm just giving you a few examples to prove my point.)

Sorry, but you're wrong. Approaching isn't the same vs. every character. Get over it and contribute, or don't post until the next topic rolls around.

Did you read my whole post or just jump down my throat after the first sentence?

@Jujux don't be afraid to post even if the metagames are different it's still helpful for you to post. I mean shaya is from Australia and he's still a prominent poster in the Marth boards. So post to your hearts content.

 

[JuJux]

@JuJux: You know I've tried reflecting the White/Purple ones back at him. They always seem to get caught by the blades of Nayru's thus either killing the poor thing or giving it a crappy return. Though I dont think I've returned one in full back at him. Hmmmm

WTF ? You kill pikmins with Naryu's Oo ? ... wow.. xD. They always are reflected when i use it xD !

A crappy return ?
the white pikmin has a really good trajectory to be reflected ON olimar.
the purple one is hard to reflect on olimar because of its short trajectory, that why I've said that you shouldn't be TOO far from olimar.
NEVER TRY TO REFLECT A YELLOW PIKMIN D: !!! xD

 

[KayLo!]

Sucks that both of my characters are heavily electricity based..... yellow pikmin are the WORST.

I never use Zelda vs. Olimar, so I can't contribute much, but I will say that his pikmin attacks (smashes, ftilt, etc.) have very low priority all-around from what I remember. They get clanked or beaten by pretty much everything.

Not really helpful since it's mainly his grab that's the problem, but. *shrug*

Also, if you're lucky, you can intentionally use his pikmin to extend your hitboxes (a la the pillars on Brinstar). Occasionally useful for mindgame bait + approaches but that's about it.

 

[-Tempest-]

Wait, why shouldn't you try and reflect yellows? Aren't the blue ones the ones that sail through Nayru's?

 

[JuJux]

Wait, why shouldn't you try and reflect yellows?

Because yellow Pikmins have a really weird trajectory and are really slow.
Even if you reflect a yellow one, it has little chance to reach Olimar. And Olimar grabs you after the naryu's without damage lol.

Aren't the blue ones the ones that sail through Nayru's?

Dunno. I reflect only purple, white and red ones most of the time lol.

 

[MrEh]

Reflecting Pikmin? With Zelda?

Surely someone here has not played a good Olimar, otherwise they would understand how silly that sounds.

jk



But seriously, it's a joke. Olimar's gonna grab you when you reflect it anyway.

 

[JuJux]

This is why I said : just reflect white ones most of the time and purples ones sometimes lol.
If olimar wants to grab you with a white pikmin on him, let him do it lololol...

Srly, i'm not saying that reflecting pikmins is THE solution LoL ! I'm just saying that it's a good deal against really campy lolimars to rack up some damage, to force him to approach or to approach him if he's hit by a purple pikmin. To me, countering an Olimar who's approaching is easier than approaching to hit him.

 

[Mocha]

YES! I've been looking forward to this discussion for a long time now. We could also apply this to the Zelda vs Olimar discussion when it shows up. All I know in this match is that Zelda's Nair eats Pikmin but I would love to know more. Usually when I try to approach him, he just tries to pivot grab me =/

 

[KayLo!]

If olimar wants to grab you with a white pikmin on him, let him do it lololol...

Seriously? @.@ That's a horrible tradeoff.

White pikmin do the most latch damage, but you'll still end up taking more damage, and you'll be thrown into a bad position.

 

[MrEh]

Getting grabbed with white Pikmin? That's no laughing matter. Seen the pummels on those things? And you're in the air. Instant positioning advantage to Olimar.

To me, countering an Olimar who's approaching is easier than approaching to hit him.

Um....yeah?

But guess what? Olimar won't be approaching you. If Olimar is approaching you, then you are not playing good Olimars.

 

[Mocha]

Thing too is that I can never tell what he's doing half of the time or what color pikmin he's using at quick glance. <<;

 

[#HBC | Scary]

That's so true. I have a really hard time knowing what he wants to do. Especially when he's charging smashes. I'll go to jump over an Fsmash only to get tagged by an Usmash.

 

[KayLo!]

Getting grabbed with white Pikmin? That's no laughing matter. Seen the pummels on those things? And you're in the air. Instant positioning advantage to Olimar.

He meant reflecting a white pikmin onto Olimar so that Oli'll be getting latch damage while he comes in to grab you (forcing him to choose between grabbing you -- and taking white pikmin damage -- or getting the pikmin off ASAP).

Thing too is that I can never tell what he's doing half of the time or what color pikmin he's using at quick glance. <<;

This is what the Olimars told us when we did the Pika vs. Olimar discussion.....

He points with different hands. Not extremely useful, I know, but if you play with one enough, you'll start to know what to expect.

When he's charging smashes, he has different stances for each. Just gotta pay attention. =\

 

[JuJux]

:/... I'm definitely not able to put into words my opinion about this match up... Above all when it's in English... So I'll just withdraw from this discussion lol.

Seriously? @.@ That's a horrible tradeoff.

White pikmin do the most latch damage, but you'll still end up taking more damage, and you'll be thrown into a bad position.

This is not "really" what I meant.

Um....yeah?

But guess what? Olimar won't be approaching you. If Olimar is approaching you, then you are not playing good Olimars.

Same thing here.

 

[KayLo!]

Noooo, language barrier ftl. Now I really wanna know what you meant, lol.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think I'm going to go with the easy option and pick Peach against him instead from now on...

 

[MrEh]

Or you can use something funny like Luigi.