Discussing Zelda's weaknesses - Topic: Character Approaching: #5 Wario

[zeldspazz]

from now on...

Have you really been going Zelda? O.o I wouldnt, lol. Its such a horrid MU

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Seriously? @.@ That's a horrible tradeoff.

White pikmin do the most latch damage, but you'll still end up taking more damage, and you'll be thrown into a bad position.

It's just in the borderline... white Pikmin cause 6% every time they attack while latched on. Olimar's throws cause damage ranging between 6-14% and his most powerful pummel causes 4% at max.

Given just the right situations Zelda might end up getting less damage, especially if she can reflect more than just one Pikmin back or manages to break free from Olimar's throw quickly.
Edit: "quickly" meaning before she gets thrown, taking only pummel damage.

Have you really been going Zelda? O.o I wouldnt, lol. Its such a horrid MU

I always go either Ganon, Zelda or Solimar against Olimars, but that's not something anyone should do.

 

[-Mars-]

Solimar hard counters Olimar imo...

 

[Xyless]

Solimar hard counters Olimar imo...

MMMM YESSSS

(yes)

 

[GreyFox86]

I'll give this topic 1 more day before I move on to the next character.

 

[GreyFox86]

Nothing new for Olimar so we are moving on down the Tier List.

Falco is now. Discuss.

 

[spurtz]

Seriously, teleport attack, most players won't expect it, because only few zelda mains use it :D

 

[GodAtHand]

I hate Falco.

I need to know what beats his side B and at what height and how consistent it is. Obviously if he is in Upsmash range that works... but beyond that I don't know much about how to deal with this move efficiently.

 

[KayLo!]

Approaching Falco...... CHING CHING! CHING CHING!

That's the sound of you perfect shielding his lasers.

But it's really hard to do consistently, so I realistically use a combination of walking, shielding, and using Zelda's air speed to airdodge closer. I tend to use airdodging when I'm farther away (where he can't punish my landings) and focus more on timing my shields right when I'm getting closer.

Then once he can't camp anymore without getting punished, just.... don't let him get by.

I don't play vs. Falcos with Zelda very often at all, though, so other people probably have better strategies.

I need to know what beats his side B and at what height and how consistent it is. Obviously if he is in Upsmash range that works... but beyond that I don't know much about how to deal with this move efficiently.

A lot of things beat his side B provided he's within range..... we got super disjoint on our side. It all depends how high he is when he uses it.

If he's in usmash/utilt range, those work. In the event of a trade, utilt is obviously better but is harder to time.

Fsmash beats it at most heights, but fsmash has a buttload of startup lag, so you have to predict him a little ahead of time..... otherwise, he'll side B through you before you can get the fsmash off.

Dsmash works if he's grounded or low. The first hit of dsmash actually clanks, but he moves through Zelda into the second hit, lol.

Not sure about jab. Lemme check...... *has Wii on* Uhh, I don't think jab works very well. I got it to trade, but every other time, he went right through it. Kinda hard to control two characters with only one pair of hands, though. x.x!

The problem with timing attacks vs. his side-b is that it's really easy to trade rather than outright beat it..... so in the case of multihit attacks, a trade isn't in our favor in terms of damage or positioning.

Utilt or dsmash are best if you're worried about favorable trading, but usmash is easier to time. Fsmash too if you have good prediction skills.

 

[spurtz]

Approaching Falco...... CHING CHING! CHING CHING!

That's the sound of you perfect shielding his lasers.

But it's really hard to do consistently, so I realistically use a combination of walking, shielding, and using Zelda's air speed to airdodge closer. I tend to use airdodging when I'm farther away (where he can't punish my landings) and focus more on timing my shields right when I'm getting closer.

Then once he can't camp anymore without getting punished, just.... don't let him get by.

I don't play vs. Falcos with Zelda very often at all, though, so other people probably have better strategies.



A lot of things beat his side B provided he's within range..... we got super disjoint on our side. It all depends how high he is when he uses it.

If he's in usmash/utilt range, those work. In the event of a trade, utilt is obviously better but is harder to time.

Fsmash beats it at most heights, but fsmash has a buttload of startup lag, so you have to predict him a little ahead of time..... otherwise, he'll side B through you before you can get the fsmash off.

Dsmash works if he's grounded or low. The first hit of dsmash actually clanks, but he moves through Zelda into the second hit, lol.

Not sure about jab. Lemme check...... *has Wii on* Uhh, I don't think jab works very well. I got it to trade, but every other time, he went right through it. Kinda hard to control two characters with only one pair of hands, though. x.x!

The problem with timing attacks vs. his side-b is that it's really easy to trade rather than outright beat it..... so in the case of multihit attacks, a trade isn't in our favor in terms of damage or positioning.

Utilt or dsmash are best if you're worried about favorable trading, but usmash is easier to time. Fsmash too if you have good prediction skills.

I Agree! Usmash and Fsmash are kinda useful against him...Actually, I think against most characters.

How about Dtilt? Anyone tried a successful Dtilt combo against him?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How many times can you ask same question to get the same answer ?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I Agree! Usmash and Fsmash are kinda useful against him...Actually, I think against most characters.

How about Dtilt? Anyone tried a successful Dtilt combo against him?

i've Dtilted a falco once.......... but that was because he sideB back on the stage like right at ground lvl.

but the normal pew pew>sideB routine Dtilt at best will make you just duck his sideB cause Falcos always hop at least a tiny bit before doing it.

i normally just walk or hop and airdodge towards him as well and try to predict a sideB then Usmash cause its more reliable to hit him

 

[KayLo!]

I think..... we covered Falco.

Just saying. =X

Maybe move to another weakness? I wanna see more activity up in this *****.

 

[GreyFox86]

I think..... we covered Falco.

Just saying. =X

Maybe move to another weakness? I wanna see more activity up in this *****.

I agree to this. I'll move on to another character.

Title update

 

[GodAtHand]

I don't approach Wario......

He doesn't have a projectile so I don't really see the need to. Sometimes I pretend like I am going to approach... but then I don't.

 

[KayLo!]

He doesn't need a projectile. x.o

If you're behind, he can aircamp the **** out of you (especially with a favorable platform layout), and there's really nothing you can do about it.

But in a worst case scenario, I usually try to time usmashes/nairs. It's so hard, though.... if you miss, he can punish Zelda pretty bad -- especially whiffed usmashes. =\

 

[Veggie123]

pivot grabbing wario proves effective for me, especially for those who love to weave in and out with dair.

i don't really approach wario either, though i occasionally like to throw out random bairs in hopes of making wario think twice before going on the offensive

 

[-Mars-]

Bair WoP like scares players who don't know the Zelda matchup lol it's way funny.

 

[KayLo!]

You know, the point of a discussion on approaching kind of assumes that we're in a position where we have to approach. x.o

At least, that's.... how I see it. ;;

 

[MrEh]

Wario can outcamp Zelda easily. It's not really that difficult either, he sort of just flies around Dins. (and her entire moveset in general)


Camp with Din's if you want. Any lead Zelda has won't last long anyway. Once you're behind in stock, prepare to chase him down. Don't overexert yourself, just play it safe. Getting overaggro will get you murdered.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Approaching Falco...... CHING CHING! CHING CHING!

That's the sound of you perfect shielding his lasers.

But it's really hard to do consistently, so I realistically use a combination of walking, shielding, and using Zelda's air speed to airdodge closer. I tend to use airdodging when I'm farther away (where he can't punish my landings) and focus more on timing my shields right when I'm getting closer.

Then once he can't camp anymore without getting punished, just.... don't let him get by.

I don't play vs. Falcos with Zelda very often at all, though, so other people probably have better strategies.



A lot of things beat his side B provided he's within range..... we got super disjoint on our side. It all depends how high he is when he uses it.

If he's in usmash/utilt range, those work. In the event of a trade, utilt is obviously better but is harder to time.

Fsmash beats it at most heights, but fsmash has a buttload of startup lag, so you have to predict him a little ahead of time..... otherwise, he'll side B through you before you can get the fsmash off.

Dsmash works if he's grounded or low. The first hit of dsmash actually clanks, but he moves through Zelda into the second hit, lol.

Not sure about jab. Lemme check...... *has Wii on* Uhh, I don't think jab works very well. I got it to trade, but every other time, he went right through it. Kinda hard to control two characters with only one pair of hands, though. x.x!

The problem with timing attacks vs. his side-b is that it's really easy to trade rather than outright beat it..... so in the case of multihit attacks, a trade isn't in our favor in terms of damage or positioning.

Utilt or dsmash are best if you're worried about favorable trading, but usmash is easier to time. Fsmash too if you have good prediction skills.

Actually... I've gotten the first hit of dsmash to clank for Zelda AND hit Falco. I think it's RIGHT when her hitbox comes out, though, so it's hard to time. Really well worth it since it puts Falco in a really bad position nine times out of ten. And yeah, while approaching him, you've got to do a lot of baiting to get him to try something silly, then punish him hard for it.

Wario... ick. It's really annoying to have Wario constantly flying around your head, and you're just hoping one of our laggy anythings catches him being lazy. Don't count that out, since it's difficult on the player to keep up a perfect air camping game for a long period of time, but don't rely on it, either.

I tend to spend a bit of the first part of the game actively chasing, and then once they think I'm going to keep doing so, I empty jump and punish their reading of previous actions. Of all the things, nair is the most useful for forcing him to react, and it's one of our fastest to recover from on top of that. We could even get lucky and drag him down into something else if we catch him close enough to the ground. Otherwise, hyphen usmashes on a retreating, dairing Wario could work if not spammed, and him trying to land anywhere near us is at least free shield pressure with our fsmash.

Also... I'm not sure, but if a Wario tries to go underneath the ledge, what about us ledgedrop hopping a dair? It might get the weak hit, but that could be enough to ruin a Wario that just used a bike, since if we do it right we can immediately grab the ledge again.