Discussing Zelda's weaknesses - Topic: Character Approaching: #5 Wario

[GreyFox86]

Credit to AL for making an effort at doing this the first time.

NO FIGHTING. Heated discussion is fine as long as it's respectful, but I will lock this if it gets out of hand, and I don't wait as long as Kata.

Current Topic: Approaching​

Inb4Zeldahasnoapproaches.

True, Zelda has no solid, 100% guaranteed approaches, but obviously we're all managing to some degree..... so what are some different things we can do when we have to approach?

Discussion points:

- Methods for approaching projectile campers + boxing them in at the ledge
- Best moves to approach with
- Best fake-outs/mindgames (so that we can actually hit with our approach moves)
- Character-specific tactics, especially vs. popular characters (ex: MK, Snake, Diddy), low tiers, and characters that give Zelda the most trouble (ex: Falco, Olimar, G&W)

Don't feel limited to that list, it's just there to get us started.

Left this up ^^^^ Good posts are good.


Since we are going with Approaches for different characters already, I feel we should go down the list. We already covered MK, and Snake. With the way things are going, I think we can get done with the Approaches real quick and move on to the next one.

 

[KayLo!]

Thread ownership given to Greyfox

I <3 Kingdom Hearts and cute fluffy toys and barbie.... aka.... thread ownership given to greyfox and I can edit this post how I want to now

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ah, the age-old problem of trying to approach. Her best approach (using the term loosely) is Nair. It's pretty short-ranged, but it can be safe on block on taller characters if done while ascending, and also you can attempt cross-ups to try and confuse your opponent and avoid being punished.

Since most people know that Zelda's approaches are unsafe on block, they may simply sit in their shield anticipating your approach, waiting to punish. If you can predict this, then you can dash grab and UThrow them, instantly putting you in a good position. Obviously this won't work more than once or twice, but it's worth knowing anyway.

And never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever use Dair to approach. You WILL get *****.

P.S. Is it worth starting a moves discussion thread? The last one was five or so months ago, so it may be outdated by now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I official hate everything.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I official haet korrekt spelinge.

 

[KayLo!]

Most of my successful approaches with Zelda are a result of playing the player rather than the character, if that makes sense.

I'll bait a shield (which is pretty easy with Zelda since most people know she has very little in the way of safe-on-shield approaches), then grab.

Or I'll walk up, get within their bubble of comfort (every camper has one), then bait an attempted punish with empty dtilts/fsmashes/autocanceled nairs. People can't resist trying to punish Zelda -- even in the very few situations where she can't be punished.

On very rare occasion, I'll approach with sourspot fair. Why? Because even though the hitstun is balls and the move is punishable even on a hit, most people grossly overestimate its hitstun and are slow to react to it. If you capitalize on this, you can sneak in a followup nair (after an ascending fair) or dtilt/usmash (after a descending fair).

Nothing guaranteed, just a few of the things I do. I'm pretty bad in this area, though, since I get really impatient in 1v1 and tend to rush in. x.o

P.S. Is it worth starting a moves discussion thread? The last one was five or so months ago, so it may be outdated by now.

*shrug* If you want.

Also, @last couple of posts, let's stay on topic. I know it's a hard concept for some people around here, but it is possible if you try hard enough.

 

[zeldspazz]

PS like a ***** when approaching Falco, Tlink, etc.

Im surprised you didnt say that KayLo!, thats something you constantly emphasize on

 

[KayLo!]

Well, yeah, that's always a given. =P I assume the part most people have trouble with is what to do once you're past all the projectiles.

At that point, you're still forced to do something -- either finish approaching or make **** sure they don't get past you where they can start camping again.

Then there're situations where you need to approach because you're behind, and some **** wants to time you out.

Then there're non-projectile campers like Marth/MK/DDD who force an approach stalemate (although the first two have a pretty easy time getting the lead in those respective MUs).

I wasn't referring specifically to approaching projectile campers, although they're definitely a large part of the problem.

 

[zeldspazz]

Gotcha.

One thing that maybe should be suggested is if youre chasing someone or trying to keep up with someone try moving through the air. Though Zelda has a bad air game, her nair is still fairly legit, it leaves her open with about 5-6 options as apposed to like 3 on the ground, and her air speed far outspeeds her ground speed.

Alternate jump heights and dont get predictable with airdodges to avois prjectiles and throw of patterns. Land close to them outside their grab range and then act off their actions.

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, a lot of people forget about her air speed since there's this intense fear of being in the air with Zelda...... but she can make it **** near across FD in two full hops. Jumping increases her mobility by a lot; as long as you don't jump right into dangerous situations, it can be good way to move horizontally.

Jump forward > airdodge backwards into the ground can bait some preeeeetty interesting things at mid-range.

 

[MrEh]

NO FIGHTING. Heated discussion is fine as long as it's respectful, but I will lock this if it gets out of hand, and I don't wait as long as Kata.

In short, if you're going to get butthurt over every little thing, don't bother posting.


Anyway, Zelda's approach is limited, we all know that. Most of good advice involving approaches is generally matchup specific advice. General advice like "approach with nair durr hurr hurr" doesn't really help. (not targeting mountain_tiger at all, Nair just happened to be the first move I thought of)

Approach options vary vastly depending on what character you are playing. Which is why I think character specific discussion (KayLo's 4th discussion point) is much more important then generalizations. (like, start with better characters and go down the list) The problem is that this should have been discussed in matchup threads, which rarely talked about this sort of thing.

 

[zeldspazz]

And never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever use Dair to approach. You WILL get *****.

Has it ever been tested to see how often/which percentages dair trips at. If its the same as dtilt (which I doubt but w/e) it could actually end up being a good surprise mixup.

 

[KayLo!]

Banking on a dair trip would be...... well. It'd certainly be ballsy. ;;

I agree with MrEh @this being a very character-specific subject; in fact, I thought about that when I made the topic, but there's really no way we can discuss every single character. ><

Unless people want to at least attempt going through approaching in the more important/common MUs..... in that case, I'll be more than willing to guide discussion in that sort of direction.

 

[Kataefi]

Dair doesn't have a very good trip rate unfortunately! But in general the later you use it the safer it is on hit and the more likely it is to happen, which is like 10% or something LOL!.... on shield it's so much worse.

 

[zeldspazz]

Eeew thats horrible >.< Ah well.

 

[GodAtHand]

Honestly I usually just pretend I am going to approach... then I don't. It makes people angry and impatient.

If I am going to actually approach... I can't even think of anything really, because I don't that often. Usually it involves just getting close enough for them to feel threatened. Then tricking them into doing something stupid.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

too bad Zelda can't do something elegant like rising Dair>Nair behind shield

how do you approach short things though? like Kirby or Oli(other than dodging pikmin) taller things seem easier since Nair is available, but when opponents get short Nair becomes lol for approaching.

 

[mountain_tiger]

In short, if you're going to get butthurt over every little thing, don't bother posting.


Anyway, Zelda's approach is limited, we all know that. Most of good advice involving approaches is generally matchup specific advice. General advice like "approach with nair durr hurr hurr" doesn't really help. (not targeting mountain_tiger at all, Nair just happened to be the first move I thought of)

Don't worry, no offense taken. I was just listing stuff that tends to work for me. Though you do have a point of it varying a lot by characters... If we are going to discuss specific characters for approaching, then how about Olimar? I can't approach him for ****.

Empty SHs are also good for mindgams as KayLo! said, but I don't use that tactic enough...

Has it ever been tested to see how often/which percentages dair trips at. If its the same as dtilt (which I doubt but w/e) it could actually end up being a good surprise mixup.

Dair is horrible in any situation other than spiking. Rarely I'll have a dumb moment and try and use Dair to approach my opponent for some unknown reason, and then proceed to get ***** for it. It has pathetic hitstun (trip rate is very low), and if they shield it has the same hitlag on you as if you'd sweetspotted it, whereas the shieldstun is very small, leaving you open to practically anything. Its short range doesn't help...

I also end up rarely using Nayru's to approach, which of course also gets you *****...

 

[Meru.]

Her air game is, imo, her biggest weakness. Really, a good air game would help soooo much. Including approaching and a slightly more aggressive playstyle.

Melee Fair/Bair @_@

 

[GreyFox86]

Lol, well lets see if I can put something down that doesn't get criticize.

As far as approaching I would like to say I mix it up with various things. Cause of my play style being all aggro, which I know is very bad for Zelda. I don't think I have anything to put down as valuable in terms of helping improving on this matter cause I tend to stay in the air and toss out Fair/Bair/Nair just so that they approach me. I think its just personal preference when you go about approaching. Everyone has a different style that works well with that person.

In all honesty I have nothing on making her approaching better so I will wait till you get to the Laggy Moveset topic, or her recovery options.

Sorry if this is a waste of time for most if not all.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think the best way to approach with Zelda is either walk to shield or dash to shield. There really isn't any benefits to dash except it cuts out a lot of your options so I guess walk to shield is your best approach options.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Cause of my play style being all aggro, which I know is very bad for Zelda. I don't think I have anything to put down as valuable in terms of helping improving on this matter cause I tend to stay in the air and toss out Fair/Bair/Nair just so that they approach me.

do you mostly keep at that till they approach? i think im more aggro as well and i haven't tried to do that

 

[GreyFox86]

do you mostly keep at that till they approach? i think im more aggro as well and i haven't tried to do that

Well with what Eh and KLO said, you have to consider the characters as well, and approaching the same way with everyone doesn't work.

Granted I'm still working on my spacing with her, but from what I gather when playing is that the way I do it just works for me. Again its all personal preference and personal style.

I mean honestly what can you do in terms of approach every character in the game other than what AL put. And yes AL, I'm using what you put as reference. I like to Dash Shield cause that gives me a better chance to PS, but I do get hit alot doing so.

 

[KayLo!]

All right, since a lot of this seems character-dependent, let's at least attempt to get through approach ideas on some of the more important characters.

@mountain: Sorry, but I'm gonna go with more popular characters first, if you don't mind. Olimar isn't the most common character out there, and he's so literally impossible to approach..... we'll get to him, but I think we should cover some of the other top tiers first.

First up: Snake
(because I hate MK, so he'll be second )​

Let's assume we're facing a nade-camping, explosive-happy Snake. How do we approach?

Most Snakes I've faced will chuck nades anytime you're at mid-long range, then wall you out with tilts as soon as you try to get close.

The bad news: nades are a ***** to get past, and his ftilt outspeeds and outranges all of our ground moves
The good news: nade campers will often back themselves into a corner, and Snake doesn't have many options to get past you once he's boxed in

In my experience, once you've gotten within their comfort zone, Snakes will do one of a few things:
1) Ftilt. Spaced correctly, there's nothing you can do but shield it and punish. Bad spacing can leave Snake ftilting right into a grab/fsmash (his hurtbox extends forward, so he can get "sucked in" to both) or outright missing, which leaves him open for punishment.
2) Mortar slide. Usually their preferred method for trying to get past you since Snake's aerials are slow and pretty useless for offensively blowing through anybody. Zelda's smashes + shielding are all good for countering a predicted mortar slide.... dunno how her tilts do against it since I usually shield or fsmash. If you shield and he ends his slide near you, you can dsmash or grab + throw him, then shield or move away from the explosive.
3) Pivot grab. If they predict a run up + shield or a badly spaced attack, Snake's pivot grab is pretty beast. He'll probably either dthrow (tech chase setup) or bthrow you off-stage.
4) Dash attack. A.k.a. a ****ed up mortar slide.
5) Jab/jab canceling. Rare and easily outspaced, but I've seen it. Leads to more options than ftilt since jab canceling is faster than ftilt canceling and can mindgame you pretty hard. (First jab > grab is most common.)

When I approach Snake, I usually mix it up between grabs (if I think he'll shield), crossup nairs, running shields, and fsmashes. Most Snakes don't realize for a long time that their ftilt outranges fsmash, possibly because it's so easy for them to misspace and get sucked into fsmash. Slightly charging an fsmash is also a good mindgame, as ftilt is on a ****ing trigger for a lot of Snakes, so they do it without thinking..... the drawback on fsmash can help you avoid that little bit of range they have on us.

Don't approach with dash attack. It rarely works. ;;

Same goes for usmash unless you're fairly certain it'll shield poke -- in which case go for it, because having Snake in the air is perfect.

If you run in and shield an attack (jab or ftilt), dsmash OOS is fantastic, especially since you'll likely be near the edge. If he's forced to cypher, you just won yourself some free damage.

That's just stuff off the top of my head. Probably missed some things.

EDIT: On stages with platforms, approaching will be a nightmare. Nades sitting on platforms are little mines at head-level, so you can't jump over them, and they can shield poke if your shield's at all diminished and not tilted up.

For getting past nades, there's not much you can do but shield and maneuver around them. Try not to shield preemptively, because you need your shield to be as full as possible.... if it's getting low, don't be afraid to back off a little and wait for it to refresh. It's much better than a shield break.

If it's not a cooked nade, sometimes I'll just run through it and take the bit of damage in favor of getting up in Snake's face ASAP. Might not be the best idea, but I have zero patience, lol.

 

[MrEh]

Honestly I usually just pretend I am going to approach... then I don't. It makes people angry and impatient.

You must be playing people who don't like camping.

First up: Snake

Get near him. If you have an opening to use Din's, then do so. It should not be a priority however, considering that getting into a camping war is a surefire way to fail. Bait and punish; read him. Rushing him is stupid. Don't do it.

and Snake doesn't have many options to get past you once he's boxed in

Mortar slide.

Also, a problem is that Zelda is terrible at keeping pressure on opponents. Snake Ftilts you, and BAM...space created.

 

[spurtz]

Teleport attack - Might work once or twice and misses easily if your not used to it and easily punishable if the opponent uses a fast character or didn't freak out hehe. But I would wait for him to go on the offensive first, so that my teleport hits from his back, then grab + up.

And also if you get the chance, spam deans fire while they are in the air until they KO.

They'll surely go for the offensive next turn for revenge, grab game and repeat dean's fire spam if possible hehehe.

 

[GodAtHand]

You must be playing people who don't like camping.

My mind kinda went straight to Metaknight actually

 

[MrEh]

Teleport attack - Might work once or twice and misses easily if your not used to it and easily punishable if the opponent uses a fast character or didn't freak out hehe.

No. Just...no. Even some of the dumbest Snake players will punish this.

But I would wait for him to go on the offensive first, so that my teleport hits from his back, then grab + up.

Snake won't have to go on the offensive. He can camp you and punish you instead.

And also if you get the chance, spam deans fire while they are in the air until they KO.

And then Snake airdodges, lands on the ground, and then proceeds to kill you

They'll surely go for the offensive next turn for revenge, grab game and repeat dean's fire spam if possible hehehe.

Unless they kill you first, which in that case, you will be camped again.

 

[GreyFox86]

Lol, taking apart the rookies post, Eh?

 

[KayLo!]

Mortar slide.

Covered it.

If nobody has any ideas for approaching besides what I posted, we can move on to MK.

 

[GreyFox86]

Covered it.

If nobody has any ideas for approaching besides what I posted, we can move on to MK.

Wait, are you talking about going to list weakness's Zelda has against MK?

 

[KayLo!]

*facepalm*

No.

We're talking about ways to approach different characters. Right now we're doing Snake. MK's gonna be next.

Discussion points:

- Methods for approaching projectile campers + boxing them in at the ledge
- Best moves to approach with
- Best fake-outs/mindgames (so that we can actually hit with our approach moves)
- Character-specific tactics, especially vs. popular characters (ex: MK, Snake, Diddy), low tiers, and characters that give Zelda the most trouble (ex: Falco, Olimar, G&W)

Except atm, it's specific to Snake.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think Kaylo covered all of them in that post.

although.....if the grenades not cooked, what about grabbing it on the go and keep approaching?

like glidetoss>Fsmash

 

[MrEh]

Shield--->punish.


Glide tossing is an interesting approach, but it's more funny then anything else. Remember that if the Snake is good, he'll be controlling the grenades. Not Zelda.

Always assume that he'll be cooking at least one grenade. (or that he'll always be holding a grenade)

 

[GreyFox86]

*facepalm*

No.

We're talking about ways to approach different characters. Right now we're doing Snake. MK's gonna be next.

Wow, my bad? I thought we...or ya'll were moving on to MK now.

 

[spurtz]

No. Just...no. Even some of the dumbest Snake players will punish this.



Snake won't have to go on the offensive. He can camp you and punish you instead.



And then Snake airdodges, lands on the ground, and then proceeds to kill you



Unless they kill you first, which in that case, you will be camped again.

Oh sorry, I wasn't talking about snake, I thought it was about all characters, and my mind was thinking about characters without projectiles.

I usually choose sheik if fighting snake, so I don't have much strategy for zelda with snake, except not to get too far or too close. I get punished easily if I chose zelda

 

[Bandit]

i think Kaylo covered all of them in that post.

although.....if the grenades not cooked, what about grabbing it on the go and keep approaching?

like glidetoss>Fsmash

No. Snake can force someone to drop a grenade at any time. It's a weird ability of his. He doesn't have to be anywhere near you.

MrEh is correct by saying Snake is always in control of the nades.

 

[-Mars-]

Ok not trying to be my usual self but why is this thread using a topic as basic as the one AL started out with in his thread that he got roasted for?

Approaching with Zelda is simple.

Walk into a shield.

Get into fsmash range.

Stay in fsmash range.

This is almost the same as the generally broad topic of talking about her recovery.....not much there to talk about.

 

[KayLo!]

False. Staying in fsmash range sounds nice and pretty, but plenty of characters (like Snake, for instance, how convenient) have moves that outrange and outspeed fsmash, making it useless to just "stay in fsmash range" and expect things to go well.

You can mindgame your opponents into leaving themselves open for an approach. Which tactics you use vary based on the other player and the character matchup.

Recovery is dumb basic, and there's not much you can do but recover as far away from where you think your opponent will be as possible.

Either contribute or don't post here. <3 Thaaaaanks~

 

[KayLo!]

K, assuming people have nothing more to say about Snake (and I wanna get through this as fast as possible), let's move on.

Next up: Meta Knight​

This one's important, because MK can easily get the lead on Zelda, then plank/air camp/pretty much do anything, and there's technically not much we can do about it. 90% of the time, we have to approach.

So what do you guys do? I'd especially like to hear from the people who claim they love to play vs. MK.

Discussion points:

- Things MKs commonly do that we might be able to punish on approach
- Mindgames MK players seem to fall for (ex: most MKs know they can do pretty much whatever they want, so they have a tendency to get a bit over-aggro at times.... can definitely work in our favor)
- Best moves to approach with
- Moves you should never try to approach with
- Options vs. Planker Knights

This time I'll wait before contributing, lol.