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[Code Bread]

Olimar doesn't exist in any of his matchup. Because he doesn't exist in the meta.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I've been saying for a while that I don't see Ness being high tier. I just feel like once you figure a Ness out, you can beat them.

Mew2King was talking about it on-stream. He just outright said "top tier." Then gave the disclaimer that it just felt like that, and it was too soon to say, but he seemed pretty frustrated as he listed all the reasons why Ness was supposedly good.

I think Ness simply can't be top tier without a faster nair or tilts. Characters with less lag have always trounced him in the past. Besides, he's an aerialist that just had one of his aerials amputated.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Olimar doesn't exist in any of his matchup. Because he doesn't exist in the meta.

that and about how he got SUPER NERFED.

Mew2King was talking about it on-stream. He just outright said "top tier." Then gave the disclaimer that it just felt like that, and it was too soon to say, but he seemed pretty frustrated as he listed all the reasons why Ness was supposedly good.

I think Ness simply can't be top tier without a faster nair or tilts. Characters with less lag have always trounced him in the past. Besides, he's an aerialist that just had one of his aerials amputated.

Ness has really stepped up his game. some people claim that he is A tier already, even though his nair is slow or laggy smashes, alot of other charcters got nerfed which put him in the spot to fill thier positions.

 

[Luco]

@ Tikao I had to go against Shaya's Falco and Falco's jab is totally godlike in this game. it doesn't seem like it would be so damaging; but i'm actually calling it as one of our biggest banes of this match-up. We never lost to Falco in Brawl because he had lasers, so him getting nerfed in that department wasn't a boon for us. His incredibly potent close-up game was what we needed to watch out for then, and it's what we need to watch out for now. His Bair and Uair WILL kill us if we're not careful and he has plenty of options to otherwise make our life hell. If we turn customs on it gets even harder, with void reflector outright killing PKT and lasers actually somewhat becoming a problem. I'll refer you to the last game of my set against Shaya, a game I probably should not have won by all rights. I certainly could have played the MU better; but Falco makes our regular game very hard to work with.

http://www.twitch.tv/hiyashaya/c/5551687 (Go to 12:04 for Ness v Falco)


As for megaman, if you're claiming our aerials beat everything he can do, you obviously haven't heard of lemons. If he uses his projectiles in a smart manner, you will *not* be reflecting/absorbing projectiles effectively enough to make this match-up any better.

We may win the MU, i'm not sure i'm totally sold on that but it's plausable. But if we do, it's not by much. He's one of the few characters who's camping game is still potent against us and sure, once we get in and punish him, we're okay... but in the meantime, enjoy a hellish neutral. @.@

 

[Earthbound360]

I remember Olimar being able to dominate Ness in Brawl. How does that matchup hold in Smash 4?

What? Ness actually beat Olimar in Brawl because his nair outprioritized everything he did.

And I understand Ness is doing well in tournaments now, but that's early Smash 4 life cycle. Every time I refer to Ness' tier placement, I'm talking long run here.

 

[Luco]

What? Ness actually beat Olimar in Brawl because his nair outprioritized everything he did.

And I understand Ness is doing well in tournaments now, but that's early Smash 4 life cycle. Every time I refer to Ness' tier placement, I'm talking long run here.

Well we didn't technically beat Olimar, we just went even with him... which was cool though. :D

I don't know how Ness will do in the long run; but people have speculated that if anything Ness has the potential to rise as the game develops, so right now we can't really tell. Sure people can adapt to our current playstyle, but we'll be adapting too. Wait a bit and see where the dust settles, okay?

 

[Noa.]

Lol basically every single character's nair in brawl beat olimar. That's not something unique to ness. Olimar had many strengths and the tools to stay out of range of something like nair.

 

[PKBeam]

Megaman is interesting, and aside from my frustration playing against him, I think I can attest to the idea that it's actually very hard to stop him camping, even as us. He mixes things up and suddenly we actually find it very hard to get in, so neutral becomes and absolute pain. He doesn't exactly out-range us but his attacks are close enough so that if we mis-time stuff we get hit, and he can make it awfully painful for us to get the Bthrow. Perhaps it's not even, but i'd be willing to say it's not very much in our favour if it is at all.

It could just be my (limited) experience with him though, i'm totally willing to accept that.

i thought i was the only one.... it's so easy for him to mess with our Fsmash/Magnet with razor blades and jab and approaching is a pain.
and yeah if you mess up a grab you can die at 60 from utilt.

just as an interesting moment in a few online matches, there are 6 frames of vulnerability on our shieldgrab, i got utilted twice during those 6 frames of shieldgrab vulnerability and died from both at 60 or 70.

 

[Tikao]

hmm I'm still not convinced of us losing the falco MU, but there will be other MUs we lose

ness is not some kind of dominating charakter, but there won't be something that completely destroys him in this game like in previous games.
if you want a charakter, who wins nearly everything, then you gotta pick someone else, but if you're ok with working on some losing MUs, then ness is ok

you can always pick a second to cover some MUs regardless

how bad is the Sonic MU, haven't played a good sonic yet and heared he is good overall, with him just outspeeding us that hard, i can see why we would lose this MU

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Because it's super early in the metagame we never know what's going to happen next. But I do know that sheik will be a huge problem for us now and in the future. People can camp needles all day, and good players can combo very well with pretty much every attack. But ness is capable of so much more, and a lot of characters are too. We still don't have mewtwo yet, and probably more dlc. Chain grabbing was never found on the first day, remember. That took time. Still we don't know what the future has in hold for any player and character. What I do know is that ness's future looks bright, he may be higher than 10 like he is now.

 

[Boy Jordan]

What? Ness actually beat Olimar in Brawl because his nair outprioritized everything he did.

And I understand Ness is doing well in tournaments now, but that's early Smash 4 life cycle. Every time I refer to Ness' tier placement, I'm talking long run here.

Lmao, sorry, this is just...wrong. Flat out wrong. Olimar outranged Ness, and many other characters, like crazy. He was also able to dependably gimp Ness's recovery with a single Pikmin toss. Ness had very few options regarding recovery. Priority of aerials really had nothing to do with the matchup. It wasn't Olimar's game to trade with aerials. His game was to stay out of reach, which he was able to do very, very well with his long range grabs, Pikmin throws, and long range smashes.

May not be the case anymore, but in Brawl, Olimar >>> Ness.

 

[Tikao]

the Ness-Olimar MU was an even MU in brawl, some considered it to be in olimars favor ever so slightly, but not enough to be considered a -1 for ness, but this is not the place for this discussion right now

this is only about smash4 MUs, so let's keep it there

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

How about approaching Peaches without repeatedly making aerial trades? (Both aerials hit, but both players get sent backwards.)
It seems like she is impossible to ground now that Ness lost his dair, and her dair now eats PKT. I can win against her, but it definitely feels uphill and I take a lot of damage, usually winning at like 220% on my last stock. She seems to eat a lot of Ness' moves and continue through them.

 

[Code Bread]

A friend of mine just start maining Peach, I'll test the MU and get back to you on that.

 

[Noa.]

The peach ness matchup is a fun one. Peach has an easier time wracking up damage, but we have an easier time killing so it balances out. I'd say if anyone had the advantage it would be us.

Pk Thunder juggling is still great against peach cause she's floaty, but you have to be more creative with it. If she goes for dair just wrap around her and hit her head. If she goes for Nair either hit her after nair comes out or hit her with the tail.

It's very easy for peach to Bait out approaches and punish us for whiffing because of her float. You have to be a lot more conscious of using aerials in the air cause you don't have as large a margin of error as usual.

My most experienced matchup is peach. I've played against her for six years now, and have faced her so many times in bracket lol. She's a very difficult character to learn to play against but she has her weaknesses.

 

[Earthbound360]

One of my biggest issues with Sonic is that he's literally the most impossible freakin character to grab in this game. Just... do that math. Ness - grabs = ****ed.

In addition to that, his spring is really annoying in this matchup, both for gimping and escaping dthrow/fair combos. Remember, he doesn't even have to hit you with the spring to gimp your recovery, just make your PKT2 collide with it (even if you take no damage, your distance is cut).

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Sad when I have to rely on nairs to kill Peach.

Yeah, grabbing Sonic isn't easy, and that spring is annoying in more ways than one.

 

[Luco]

I agree on peach, though something to note is that she can't air-dodge when floating so if you use PKT she either gets out of float + airdodges (which puts her in a position to be hit by PKT if you aim it around after her) or she tries to use an aerial, so you tend to aim for her upper body. She might be able to just cancel float and FF --> shield, but PKT is fast and might be able to catch her depending on when she does it. In any case you're usually pretty safe while she does this.

As for the rest of the MU, I agree with Draconoa in that she racks up damage a little easier than we do but kills considerably later and overall we tend to be the ones left at 150% with max rage going into the next stock haha.

 

[Naeroon]

Here's a post I made in response to a thread about Shulk and his counter, as a Ness player.

Okay so my first question is does counter deal more knockback/damage?
Ness PK Bomb fully charged -> Shulk's counter -> Ness. Middle of FD
46% damage, ohko

Ness PK Bomb fully charged -> Toon Link (the other 3ds does not have Ness unlocked, Toon Link is right below Ness in weight). Middle of FD.
38% damage, barely any knockback (seriously like nothing)

So... interesting. The knockback was VASTLY increased (from barely moving an inch to Ohko). Damage was increased by 8% or ×1.21.
Just in case you don't know, damage is constant per character (and just to be sure I tested that too lol)

... ... ...

The attack with Monado Buster did still kill Ness, but it had less knockback. This proves that the knockback dealt is effected by Monado Arts.

How does Ness's PK Bomb go from almost no knockback to an Ohko? It's a tricky quesion. Let's test how the counter responds to other types of attacks.

When countered Bowser's fully charged F-Smash at the range of touching each other, Bowser gets sent just off-screen. When Bowser uses fully charged F-Smash against another Bowser, the bowser gets sent just a little bit off of FD.

How I would explain it is that the hitbox of Shulk's counter has a decent base knockback, no matter what move hits him. This explains why Shulk's counter still has okay knockback when moves that have low knockback such as bowser's fire and Sheik's needles trigger the counter. I believe that the knockback growth of Shulk's counter is what is determined by the opponent's move, but it is increased to some extent.

I think that Ness's PK Bomb is an odd case. I think it may have barely any base knockback and it makes up for it with lots of knockback growth. The knockback growth is sent to and increased (seemingly multiplied) in Shulk's counter, and is made even more deadly because Shulk's counter does have a base knockback.

I hope I don't get in trouble for bumping this, but I came here specifically due to a recent game I had with this exact situation. I was playing a shulk, landed a fully-charged PK Flash which he proceeded to counter, and was ROCKETED off the screen at 48%. Like, absolutely no chance of recovering, a true OHKO. I use PK flash often enough to know that it's never a OHKO like that unless the enemy has at least a decent percentage on them already, and coupled with the fact that I struggle against Shulks as Ness anyways, it was both confusing and frustrating. I've been playing smash since it came out on the N64 when I was five, and I've never witnessed ANYBODY flying off the screen with that much momentum at 48%, no matter how lightweight they are.

While I'll admit I'm clearly biased (who isn't), I still think that an attack capable of rocketing someone off the screen with that much speed at 48% is completely silly. No attack, especially a counter, should be able to do that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to know other Ness players' personal experiences with Shulk x PK Flash? Again, I've never experienced such a low-percentage OHKO as this in my many, many years with this series. Makes me feel icky inside.

 

[Noa.]

Pk flash is bad don't use it lol. Problem solved.

 

[PSIBoy]

Pk flash is bad don't use it lol. Problem solved.

Sometimes PK Flash is used for edge-guarding though, but I find it highly inefficient for the task compared to F-air, N-air, PKT1, and even PK Fire.

 

[Earthbound360]

If you use it as an edgeguard, most of the time you use it more to scare them into getting hit by something else.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I think I've already said this, but ness is ness's worst matchup. We have combos and projectiles, but we can also absorb those projectiles, which makes it super hard to see who's better or if it's just lag.

 

[Pazx]

The best player in my area is a Rosalina. Can't get grabs, PK fire isn't safe, can't sit in shield because she has a good grab game. Uair juggles, nair/fair seem to frame trap to an extend, bair is quickish and is good for edgeguards or kills. I've had mild success with nair, sweetspot bair and PKT mixups (including the odd PKT2 hit) so I can get some kills and setup edgeguard situations but I don't know how to approach, how to play the neutral or how to escape her juggles.

 

[Noa.]

Please go read the other matchup thread. There are many wonderful posts there.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

We've kinda talked a lot abot rosa but, maybe it is just the high level gameplay. Rosa should be comboed but, practice more.

 

[stingers]

how do you guys think ness does vs sonic?

 

[Noa.]

I have only played against a Sonic once and that was in tournament. He 2-0'd me and it wasn't even close. I have no solid impressions of this matchup cause i have so little experience with it. But Sonic is the character that scares me most when I think of which characters I want to avoid in tournament.

It might be even, but if it weren't even then I would say it's in Sonic's favor only slightly though. I've still not played against the character enough to say anything definitive however.

 

[Earthbound360]

I feel like Sonic is going to be our literal worst matchup.

 

[Code Bread]

I don't think I've played enough strong Sonics. I've bested all of them that I've come by, so I can't really see how it's hard.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Sonic players are really cocky, and will definetly trick you with thier down b cancels. Try to eave your way around the using dsmash when necessary. Works for me

 

[revengeska]

Yeah with Ness I tend to get thrown off so bad vs Sonic. I'm maining both Ness and Pac-Man, and at this point I'm definitely using Pac-Man against Sonic when possible.

 

[Piggyman86]

Ness has really stepped up his game. some people claim that he is A tier already, even though his nair is slow or laggy smashes, alot of other charcters got nerfed which put him in the spot to fill thier positions.

dk why youre dissing his nair. fair, nair, and uair are legit just as good as each other in the right situation.

 

[Asa]

Stay grounded for the most part.. Sonic can get in on you if you jump for no reason and punish.

Don't get hit by spindash. Leads into a bunch of damage, which can be bad in the long run since this matchup can run into time a lot. Watch his patterns out of spindash, you can fit in a fair or some other aerial there.

Be careful with pkt juggling as sonic is quite mobile and can get through it and punish pretty easily.

For stages, I like small stages he can't run around too much like bf or sv.

 

[Snerp]

I've been having a lot of trouble against defensive Bowsers lately since you can't really PK Fire him early and approaching is difficult.

Does anyone have any tips? I can beat most Bowsers, it's just the defensive ones who know how to shield that give me the most trouble.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

dk why youre dissing his nair. fair, nair, and uair are legit just as good as each other in the right situation.

I don't think you understand what I said...

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I've been having a lot of trouble against defensive Bowsers lately since you can't really PK Fire him early and approaching is difficult.

Does anyone have any tips? I can beat most Bowsers, it's just the defensive ones who know how to shield that give me the most trouble.

NAIR FORVER SPACING IS KEY. it has good spacing, up tilts upsmash and downsmash have spacing utilities too. Since bowser is big fairs are a definite combo.

 

[Pazx]

I've been having a lot of trouble against defensive Bowsers lately since you can't really PK Fire him early and approaching is difficult.

Does anyone have any tips? I can beat most Bowsers, it's just the defensive ones who know how to shield that give me the most trouble.

I took one to KJ64 today, dthrow fair rinse repeat, try to keep your distance from him and rack up damage because if he gets in he hits like a truck. Don't use PKF or PKT unsafely or you will eat a fsmash to the face. Nair and fair are essential, bair is a good move because of his massive hurtbox.

 

[Asa]

condition him to shield, punish accordingly. if attacking his shield don't commit too hard or you'll get up-b'd oos. baiting that out is a good idea. and pk fire his landings.

 

[Ranias]

I've been having a lot of trouble against defensive Bowsers lately since you can't really PK Fire him early and approaching is difficult.

Does anyone have any tips? I can beat most Bowsers, it's just the defensive ones who know how to shield that give me the most trouble.

I main Bowser as well as Ness. I feel that Ness has an advantage because of PK Fire and PK Thunder. PK Fire can catch him for the full duration if you aim it well into his center (after a fall or after a dodge). PK Thunder can be used in the air if he isn't directly above you.

Bowser's main weakness is that he can't land very well, so take full advantage of that.

He is also slow moving and doesn't have alot of options in the air, so you can probably win an aerial fight with him.