Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

I need advice for Diddy. I was playing with a friend and it seemed like nothing I did worked. He predicted a lot of my moves, even when I tried to switch it up and do weird stuff. The only times I managed to hurt him was when he messed up. Not because I out performed him, but simply because he messed up. What was especially annoying is that it felt like all of Diddy's moves had higher priority. I remember he did a down smash and I spot dodged. I tried punishing with a grab, but he just rolled away right afterward. Same thing happened, only this time I tried jabbing since I believe jabbing comes out faster. But no, one time he just shielded right after and even rolled away once again. The perfect punishing opportunity, but Diddy got away with a missed down smash because it just felt like he was faster them me. He's even rolled right up next to me, which is the perfect opportunity to punish with a grab or jab, but he just followed up with his own jab attack right out of a roll. That really doesn't seem right. I could place blame on the fact that I was using a Mayflash Gamecube controller adapter, but he was using the same thing. Is he just pressing the buttons faster than me? I really don't think I can press the buttons any faster than I already am...

 

[PKBeam]

i think you have to think your options through - is it safe to punish and how can i do so without putting myself at too much risk. and if he's predicting your moves that means you have a pattern or he's reacting to them as you throw them out.

if his dsmash is too fast for you to punish then don't.
if he tries to roll up to you and attack there are a lot of things you can do to him. im not sure which ones are safe enough to use but you can even jab him in his roll ending lag if your timing is decent.

 

[Doctor Saius]

Since Ness can Fsmash Samus' charge beam, can you Fsmash Robin's thunder back? i know it supposed to work with most projectiles but haven't got to test it reliably yet.

 

[Noa.]

You can reflect it back at Robin.

 

[Doctor Saius]

You can reflect it back at Robin.

Hellz yeah, i did it with a little mac charge punch so i figured it would work with Ness bat

 

[Luco]

If Diddy, or anyone else rolls into you or you suspect they're going to roll into you, SH Nair. The lasting hitbox on it punishes rolls perfectly, so you don't have to worry about timing grabs/other attacks.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

ness bat can do alot of other things y know. dtilt can combo into fsmash. stage right. easy 20 percent,btw sue upsamsh often it has great prorites and a large hitbox

 

[PKBeam]

its so slow though.
fsmash does 18%.
at 20% i could grab them, dthrow and triple Fair. easy 25%, gets them offstage (usually) and less risk.

 

[Noa.]

I landed a few fsmashes today in tournament. Again it's a very situational and niche move, but killing so early is nice. If you don't kill you get them offstage which sets up for pk thunder edge guards. So fsmash is a move with a huge amount of reward. It's just really hard to land is all.

 

[Code Bread]

Fsmash is, imo, only for hard reads. Usmash seems like the safer option and a great mixup. Dsmash, though, seems useless.

 

[Earthbound360]

Dsmash is amazing, watchu smokin brah? It's the most reliable smash KO move Ness has. Usmash doesn't kill and fsmash is just... bad IMO.

 

[Code Bread]

Usmash isn't for killing... it's a mixup...

I don't know what you're doing if your most reliable KO option with Ness is dsmash. My issue is only that I always forget that it goes backward to forward, unlike most dsmashes. Hitting an opponent with the beginning of dsmash doesn't send them to the final pop, so I always just end up tacking 4% or so when I use it.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Upsmashhh isn't for killing right. Neither is downsmash, both of these movers are great for getting some damage in. But, I do think that dsmash is very useful for ground coverage. But I dispise how they took out charge damage for the yoyo, and how the string doesn't do damage.

 

[Code Bread]

Whenever I read a roll and try to punish with a dsmash, I always think the charge will damage the opponent. It never does

 

[Earthbound360]

I never said "most reliable kill move" I said "most reliable kill SMASH."
I never said usmash was for killing either, I used it as a reinforcement to why dsmash is the best kill smash.

Dsmash sends opponents at a very horizontal angle and has pretty good knockback. You have to space it right and sweetspot it of course. Obviously you need to be aware that it hits behind him too, but its meaty hitbox means it's great for punishing rolls.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Sweetspotting is so tedious. I mean like I can use most of my smash attack without a sweet spot exept for all of them... D smash is def a good angle kill move, but with this new di sistem I find it more of a good range smash attack. Great for spacing and has good knockback. But the people champ ness bat is def a good read user for a punish

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Is the best

 

[PSIBoy]

Is the best

But seriously, he doesn't seem to have many disadvantageous matchups right now outside swordsmen, Rosalina, and a few others.

 

[Code Bread]

I never said "most reliable kill move" I said "most reliable kill SMASH."
I never said usmash was for killing either, I used it as a reinforcement to why dsmash is the best kill smash.

Dsmash sends opponents at a very horizontal angle and has pretty good knockback. You have to space it right and sweetspot it of course. Obviously you need to be aware that it hits behind him too, but its meaty hitbox means it's great for punishing rolls.

o, thought you said best kill option.
But using an option not meant for killing doesn't reinforce the idea that another option is best for killing. That's like saying Fox's usmash is better for killing than his laser. They have different purposes and shouldn't be compared like that.
On the subject of dsmash being a good kill option, I'll agree with you once I learn how to use it. For now, I'm just going to complain about it

But seriously, he doesn't seem to have many disadvantageous matchups right now outside swordsmen, Rosalina, and a few others.

I'm glad he still has his issues and hasn't been deemed "broken" by the community (only a few butthurts). This way we only have to worry about a developing meta, and it seems like Ness will hold a strong placing all around.

 

[Luco]

I'll give you a quick list of the MUs I think we lose to and the ones we go even with. Being this early in the game i can't comment on everything and I expect we'll have some mid/low tier MUs that will actually be very difficult for us, but for now, my impressions go something like:

peeps we lose to, most not by too much:
| maybe and

Peeps we go even with (ish):
(I think, not too sure though), and possibly even , also and

Most of the cast though, I think we ever so slightly beat out. I think there's a few more characters i've missed that go in one of these ^ 2 categories and the characters within them could be switchable.

Sound reasonably accurate at all?

 

[PKBeam]

i'm pretty sure we lose to shulk. and tbh I don't think megaman is even.

 

[Luco]

i'm pretty sure we lose to shulk. and tbh I don't think megaman is even.

Megaman is interesting, and aside from my frustration playing against him, I think I can attest to the idea that it's actually very hard to stop him camping, even as us. He mixes things up and suddenly we actually find it very hard to get in, so neutral becomes and absolute pain. He doesn't exactly out-range us but his attacks are close enough so that if we mis-time stuff we get hit, and he can make it awfully painful for us to get the Bthrow. Perhaps it's not even, but i'd be willing to say it's not very much in our favour if it is at all.

It could just be my (limited) experience with him though, i'm totally willing to accept that.

 

[Tikao]

how do we lose to falco?
he can't outspeed us, he can't realy gimp us, he can't outrange us (those are the generell things i would consider you need to beat ness / have a favorable MU against ness) and falco simply isn't good enough to compensate for the lack of the above

pit/darkpit could be a negative MU for us with them gimping us
ike seems more about even-ish to me, he got the range but is slow and easy to juggle for us
diddy might be a negative MU for us, just because he is so good overall, we wouldn't lose the MU by that much though
megaman seems like a MU in our favor for me

also marth could be another even-ish MU for us (if he abuses his nair) he got nerfed overall and the deathgrab removed, but he still seems good against ness to me

 

[Earthbound360]

I feel like Megaman might be bad just because of how much he shuts down PKF. Magnet really isn't a viable option in this matchup if the Megaman knows what he's doing, and let's be real here, Ness isn't the best at swimming through projectile storms.

Rosalina is overrated, not as bad as a lot of people make her out to be IMO. Luma is free firewood.

It's mostly Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic I'm worried about.

 

[Noa.]

Literally almost all matchups in this game feel even for me. A few feel like in our advantage. The only ones Id say we lose are Rosalina, and Pits. I could see shulk. I could see any sword user really. Otherwise I think we're fine personally. But it's very early in the metagame and im sure more problematic matchups will arrive.

 

[Code Bread]

I think we're right in the middle of the spectrum where either really campy characters or really rushdown characters give us the most issues.

I feel like Yoshi and Sonic are harder matchups than even, but I've only ever played two Sonics so I don't know. Could somebody explain to me how Falco and Pikachu give us a hard time? I've never played against them as Ness.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness' bad matchups come from characters with better range, priority, and/or speed.
In rare circumstances, a single move will ruin one of his matchups (Rosalina's down B, Mario's FLUDD, Greninja's up B), but Ness handles most matchups extremely well.

Ness is one of very few characters to have both an absorption/recovery move as well as a reflector. If you're dying to spam, use these moves more.

Megaman vs Ness STRONGLY favors Ness. You can heal off nearly all his moves, reflecting his moves can kill, and you have better speed and priority.
Understand that smash attacks have the same charge duration, so if a Megaman starts charging a forward smash, and you start after them, they cannot wait for your bat to swing before firing, allowing you to bat it back without fail.
You can heal from the sticky bombs, charge shots heal a TON of health, and you can catch the saw blades or bat them back. His up and down smashes are super laggy letting you punish with whatever you want, even with enough time to PKT2 into him.​

The absolute worst scenarios for Ness are where he gets stuck in hitstun and gets hit with combo after combo due to faster opponents with better priority, NOT campy players.

Speaking of which, if you're up against a Link that does the 'ol "throw a boomerang, shoot an arrow" spam, just jump and run a PK Thunder over there. Link HAS to fire the arrow and sit through the animation before he can respond, so you'll get free damage on him every time he tries. PK Thunder lasts for 4 seconds, giving you enough time to send it all the way across the stage and hit him from as far as he could possibly be camping from. Not only that, but since they almost always lead with the boomerang, you can VERY easily reflect a slow projectile like that and when it hits him it will stun him out of the arrow charge animation, allowing you to get in close.​

When playing against reflector characters, I actually try to bait them into reflecting PK Fire into myself, because I will heal more from it than it will damage me. (For example, when Foxes are on fire, they'll often down B, and PK Fire will rise into the air, under their possession. You can hop into that and recover from it.)

 

[Noa.]

A lot of good megamans actually rarely use fsmash. They just focus heavily on neutral b and side b. Just saying. Again I think the megaman matchup is even. :V

 

[Code Bread]

Good Megamans know their options and fsmash is rarely one of them.
We're not talking about campy spam players like FG Links, we're talking about characters with strong camping options and players that know how to use them, like DHD.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness out-prioritizes most of Megaman's moves.
Many Megaman players will try to either spike or fsmash players trying to recover. Neither are a problem for Ness.

DHD is bat-fodder at range, and just plain loses to in-your-face styles.
The can gets reflected straight to where it started from, and most campers don't move much.
The disc can get reflected easily.
The gunman can be reflected, but the shot is invisible, so you just have to know when to respond to the audio cue.

I don't think Ness vs DHD is a difficult matchup, but it can be if you don't adapt your style for it.
I don't think Ness' worst matchups will be against defensive players.
Hyper-aggressive fast characters like Sheik and Greninja are really going to be the bigger threats.

 

[Noa.]

What do you mean by Ness out-prioritizing Megaman? Do you know how priority works in this game?

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness' aerials stop pretty much everything Megaman has on the ground. In the air, moves don't clink, but Ness is faster and can hit repeatedly without giving Megaman many options besides airdodge and DI, both can be chased. I will try to get some replays to show what I mean.

 

[Code Bread]

I don't think any DHD player with a brain would sit down and let you reflect everything they throw. You've been playing spam campers. An intelligent DHD uses their camp options to make an approach. I completely disagree that DHD has no up-close options. I don't think DHD would be a difficult matchup, but I've only ever faced bad ones, so I don't know. I feel like characters that can cover their approaches will be a pain for Ness, but easily be worked around. Rushdown characters, on the other hand, will be Ness' legitimate hard matchups.

 

[Ness 682]

Sheesh, Ness seems to have those issues with certain matchups with any top tier character that just make him hard to play in every game

In Brawl, it was MK Marth and D3, in SSB4:

Rosalina/Greninja: Easily gimps
Sonic/Sheik: Too fast

I know that there is more to it than that, but the idea is still present to me that most people will be playing these top tier characters that can easily counter Ness, making him less popular to play as and just lose the love that he's getting right now I hope it doesn't come to that, because I love Ness and never want to play anyone else really xD

 

[Earthbound360]

Sheesh, Ness seems to have those issues with certain matchups with any top tier character that just make him hard to play in every game

In Brawl, it was MK Marth and D3, in SSB4:

Rosalina/Greninja: Easily gimps
Sonic/Sheik: Too fast

I know that there is more to it than that, but the idea is still present to me that most people will be playing these top tier characters that can easily counter Ness, making him less popular to play as and just lose the love that he's getting right now I hope it doesn't come to that, because I love Ness and never want to play anyone else really xD

This is why I think he'll be lower mid tier later in this game's life. Though no one wants to side with me on this for some reason. Except I don't worry about Rosy as much as I do Diddy.

 

[Ness 682]

This is why I think he'll be lower mid tier later in this game's life. Though no one wants to side with me on this for some reason. Except I don't worry about Rosy as much as I do Diddy.

I have a feeling that most people are already amazed at how much different Ness' playstyle is right now. To be honest, I'm having a hard time learning this new Ness with prioritizing certain playstyles over Brawl. I could always get away with playing more defensively in Brawl, but now it feels like the only way to go is aggro, thus leading to more of a mindgame/reading kind of game, which is my weak"ness" right now. In Brawl, I'd always just use fair, PKF pressuring, and nairs to rack up damage, doing short hop nairs/bairs and then using up air as a KO move (or back throw, but you know that already ). I really miss the short hop nair/bair + up air the most in SSB4.

Overall, it'll take some time learning to prioritize grabbing early game to combo into moves rather than saving my grabs for high %'s. It was already hard enough for me to get grabs in Brawl, I don't imagine it's going to be easier in this :/

 

[Noa.]

If you compete in tournaments it's just obvious that Ness isn't bad. :V

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Sheesh, Ness seems to have those issues with certain matchups with any top tier character that just make him hard to play in every game

In Brawl, it was MK Marth and D3, in SSB4:

Rosalina/Greninja: Easily gimps
Sonic/Sheik: Too fast

I know that there is more to it than that, but the idea is still present to me that most people will be playing these top tier characters that can easily counter Ness, making him less popular to play as and just lose the love that he's getting right now I hope it doesn't come to that, because I love Ness and never want to play anyone else really xD

In Brawl, the chaingrabs were the death knell of Ness players everywhere. "Don't get grabbed" weren't just teasing words, they were deadly serious. That's why Marth and D3 were such bad matchups for Ness.

It may be that a specific defensive style is needed against the speedsters. Odd for Ness to play like a tanky bruiser, but when you can't confound them with speed, what other options do you have?
Against Sonic, Sheik, Greninja, and Diddy you really get punished for any openings in your pressure, and as we've noted above, Ness' specials feel slow-mo against these guys. You have to have good shield and grab technique, and avoid setting them up to combo you.

 

[Code Bread]

This is why I think he'll be lower mid tier later in this game's life. Though no one wants to side with me on this for some reason. Except I don't worry about Rosy as much as I do Diddy.

I've been saying for a while that I don't see Ness being high tier. I just feel like once you figure a Ness out, you can beat them.

 

[Boy Jordan]

I remember Olimar being able to dominate Ness in Brawl. How does that matchup hold in Smash 4?