Q&A Diddy's Q&A + Competitive Development - ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[Spatman]

Yep, be forewarned however, as this combo is seriously tricky and unreliable. Also, Da-Fair trues at low percents. I haven't been able to get RAR Bair to true annoyingly, pretty sure it can.

but... how can dtilt --> DA --> Upair kill at 80ish?
I can't kill with not staled upair until 160ish... percentages too high to go in combo with upthrow

 

[Sonicninja115]

but... how can dtilt --> DA --> Upair kill at 80ish?
I can't kill with not staled upair until 160ish... percentages too high to go in combo with upthrow

It is rather interesting how it works. I think it works best on SV and T&C, and doesn't kill/work on the other stages. It sends the opponent rather high, and it might rely on certain DI. I haven't tested it much, but it does kill.

 

[Spatman]

I find it odd, because sometimes I hit with upair very near to T&C upper blastzone at 120% and even more, but I don't kill (and I can't understand why this move has been nerfed so much...). So please, when you test it more post here. Meanwhile I'll try it too

 

[Sonicninja115]

I find it odd, because sometimes I hit with upair very near to T&C upper blastzone at 120% and even more, but I don't kill (and I can't understand why this move has been nerfed so much...). So please, when you test it more post here. Meanwhile I'll try it too

It depends on Weight and Di sometimes. staling will drastically affect it too. even if used just once in the 8 previous moves, it can Raise the kill percent by as much as ten percent. (Maybe higher, not exactly sure.) Also, the Diddy had about 100%, so rage factor as well.

 

[HoSmash4]

What % does uthrow uair kill and when is it a 50/50 and when is it true? On sheik

 

[Sonicninja115]

What % does uthrow uair kill and when is it a 50/50 and when is it true? On sheik

I am working on that. To get it to always true, you can throw a banana first. Why does this work? Because no one is going to drop shield against a Diddy with Banana in hand!

Also, staling is a factor. I will see what the last possible percent to get the hoo-hah is and then post it here. It will be much harder with staling, but it is something I need to do. I expect it trues an kills at about 130% if staled once. I might be wrong, this is just slightly factual conjecture.

 

[Pazx]

I was wondering what the optimal DI for Diddy's grabs are? What are the big danger zone percents for big combos? Is there any exact numbers of how safe banana is on block?

DI dthrow away (behind Diddy so the angle is less steep), and DI upthrow in either horizontal direction. Danger zones are stricly low percentages, if you're DIing properly Diddy won't get more than one aerial afterwards.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I was wondering what the optimal DI for Diddy's grabs are? What are the big danger zone percents for big combos? Is there any exact numbers of how safe banana is on block?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fZIiBdGv6xOFk/htmlview?pref=2&pli=1&sle=true#

this doc says banana toss forward is +6 on shield.

That is actually ridiculously safe and I didn't realize it was like that.

Holy ****.

 

[Sonicninja115]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fZIiBdGv6xOFk/htmlview?pref=2&pli=1&sle=true#

this doc says banana toss forward is +6 on shield.

That is actually ridiculously safe and I didn't realize it was like that.

Holy ****.

Thanks for fining the sheet! There are 7 frames of shield drop, so even though the stun is negligible, the numbers are still really good.

Banana-Grab can actually be a true combo on shields sometimes.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Thanks for fining the sheet! There are 7 frames of shield drop, so even though the stun is negligible, the numbers are still really good.

Banana-Grab can actually be a true combo on shields sometimes.

Worth noting that the 7 frames of shield drop can be cancelled if you do grab or jump oos.

Anyway, based on the frame data alone, assuming it's not power shielded, banana to grab on shield should be true if you're within the grab range.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Worth noting that the 7 frames of shield drop can be cancelled if you do grab or jump oos.

Anyway, based on the frame data alone, assuming it's not power shielded, banana to grab on shield should be true if you're within the grab range.

Thank you a lot for showing me this doc! I have one just like this but outdated +6 is insane. Just out of curisouty this is just normal shield right? How is power/perfect shield?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Thank you a lot for showing me this doc! I have one just like this but outdated +6 is insane. Just out of curisouty this is just normal shield right? How is power/perfect shield?

Yeah all of that assumes normal shields. Perfect shields suffer no shield stun and no 7 frames of shield drop animation.

 

[Pazx]

Our grab is frame 6 so banana forward -> grab isn't a true blockstring by any means but it's likely to work sometimes, it loses to shieldgrab for instance (it might trade actually) and can be avoided by using evasive OoS options. It also definitely loses to any good up specials out of shield.

Banana toss down gives significantly more frame advantage but I think downwards toss -> grab will still lose to spotdodges and very fast up specials, it DOES beat shieldgrab though. Downwards toss -> dtilt also beats shieldgrabs, but only if the opponent buffers it, if the opponent is a frame too slow we'll hit their shield.

 

[Pazx]

The Diddy Discord server was discussing the applications of wavebouncing specials out of monkey flip, SHAMELESS PLUG even more reason to join the server! https://discord.gg/0lJTdqnYKZRUHIrb

Below are some visual demonstrations of wavebouncing popgun and banana pluck out of monkey flip. The banana pull in particular seems really useful to me, it allows you to retreat and maintain both stage and banana control whereas with a regular b reverse you may have to overextend to grab your banana peel afterwards. The popgun is also pretty useful, wavebouncing projectiles makes them pretty safe (eg. Lucas's PK Fire) and you still have the opportunity to cancel the charge immediately into whatever, making it a useful escape tool similar to B reverse popgun cancel but you'll be facing the direction you monkey flipped in the first place.

If you don't know about monkey flip popgun cancel here is an informative video: https://youtu.be/SFJp0Flcb2Q?t=5m28s

The following was written by a fellow in the discord named NoFlexZone (with help from Jaylowww )

~~~~~

"There's been something of a discovery made in the Diddy discord group. While I was in training mode practicing B-reverse bananas I accidentally did a wavebounce instead. After sharing this with the group we went to work and found some cool stuff. I dub it the-
***
**Monkey Bounce**
***
But what it is, is just a wavebounce out of side-B instead of a normal B-reverse. This can be used for;

* Faster banana grabs
* As a bait
* Mixup tool(onstage and recovery)
* Style
* Anything else regular b-reverse can do

Here are some demonstrations;

Popgun slide https://media.giphy.com/media/u905bv1Qq8QY8/giphy.gif

Popgun cancel https://media.giphy.com/media/xrq7oBXfpySpW/giphy.gif

Banana bounce on Battlefield http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-28-2016/r4miNE.gif

Banana bounce on FD https://j.gifs.com/DkQEEx.gif http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-29-2016/PhYmG0.gif

Credit to /u/jaylowww for finding out and providing the gifs of the Popgun wavebounces."

 

[NoJohnsZone]

(with help from Jaylowww who brought up the tech in the first place)

NoFlexZone here; For what it's worth I was the one who brought it up first but Jaylowww deserves major props!

 

[ArikadoSD]

Our grab is frame 6 so banana forward -> grab isn't a true blockstring by any means but it's likely to work sometimes, it loses to shieldgrab for instance (it might trade actually) and can be avoided by using evasive OoS options. It also definitely loses to any good up specials out of shield.

You're right, my bad :o

can you actually toss a banana downwards in front of their shield and actually hit it? or do you have to be above their shield (as in, above them)?

 

[Sonicninja115]

You're right, my bad :o

can you actually toss a banana downwards in front of their shield and actually hit it? or do you have to be above their shield (as in, above them)?

You can dash into banana toss down. This is how ZeRo and others guarantee the Dsmash afterwards.

Our grab is frame 6 so banana forward -> grab isn't a true blockstring by any means but it's likely to work sometimes, it loses to shieldgrab for instance (it might trade actually) and can be avoided by using evasive OoS options. It also definitely loses to any good up specials out of shield.

Banana toss down gives significantly more frame advantage but I think downwards toss -> grab will still lose to spotdodges and very fast up specials, it DOES beat shieldgrab though. Downwards toss -> dtilt also beats shieldgrabs, but only if the opponent buffers it, if the opponent is a frame too slow we'll hit their shield.

So, if the opponent is frame perfect. (No power shield, which negates shieldstun) then Diddy is -1. If you drop, +6. Thus, a banana can true combo on shield drop, as diddy's grab is frame 6. So a JC Banana toss -Grab could work. However, if the opponent decides to jump, then there is noting Diddy can do, sorta, it probably becomes a disadvantaged situation depending on the character.

Anyone know if spot dodge suffers shield drop?

Another thing people should learn, is how to catch a shielded banana. I have seen ZeRo do this multiple times.

 

[ArikadoSD]

You can dash into banana toss down. This is how ZeRo and others guarantee the Dsmash afterwards.

So like just jc throw banana downwards in front of shield?

Any videos of that being done?

Anyone know if spot dodge suffers shield drop?

you only suffer shield drop animations if you literally let go of shield. if you grab, jump, roll, or spotdodge then it just cancels the shield completely.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So like just jc throw banana downwards in front of shield?

Any videos of that being done?

you only suffer shield drop animations if you literally let go of shield. if you grab, jump, roll, or spotdodge then it just cancels the shield completely.

None that you can easily find. I will make a video and hopefully have it up by Monday night or Tuesday. Other then that, I saw it mainly at TO11 and 2GGT? I didn't see ZeRo use it much at G3.

 

[Pazx]

You can dash into banana toss down. This is how ZeRo and others guarantee the Dsmash afterwards.

So, if the opponent is frame perfect. (No power shield, which negates shieldstun) then Diddy is -1. If you drop, +6. Thus, a banana can true combo on shield drop, as diddy's grab is frame 6. So a JC Banana toss -Grab could work. However, if the opponent decides to jump, then there is noting Diddy can do, sorta, it probably becomes a disadvantaged situation depending on the character.

Anyone know if spot dodge suffers shield drop?

Another thing people should learn, is how to catch a shielded banana. I have seen ZeRo do this multiple times.

It's not true if it's escapable, even with maximum frame advantage (via tossing downwards) it's escapable. Saying it's true on shield drop is like saying you can falcon punch to knee and it's true if they don't airdodge. It's a mixup, and it's a good one at that, because it's tempting to stay in shield after the banana (you can condition this by using dtilt after the banana, or using fair/utilt if you read a jump).

Kayran is correct in saying that you only suffer shield drop frames if you let go of the shield button.

ArikadoSD I'm very confident you can downwards toss when grounded and it will still hit shields.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's not true if it's escapable, even with maximum frame advantage (via tossing downwards) it's escapable. Saying it's true on shield drop is like saying you can falcon punch to knee and it's true if they don't airdodge. It's a mixup, and it's a good one at that, because it's tempting to stay in shield after the banana (you can condition this by using dtilt after the banana, or using fair/utilt if you read a jump).

Kayran is correct in saying that you only suffer shield drop frames if you let go of the shield button.

ArikadoSD I'm very confident you can downwards toss when grounded and it will still hit shields.

That's an over exagerration, and a bit in the wrong context, but generally correct.
It relies on the opponent slipping for 5 frames in a 60fps game. Unless they are nearly frame perfect, there is still a chance it will work. I can PP rather easily, so I know what a five frame window is like. It puts the opponent in a bad situation. After the banana hits the shield, they can either jump, read and spot dodge, roll or do nothing. Those are the main options someone would take. Now, rolling is predictable, jumps can be caught, spot dodges can be counter read and doing nothing can be grabbed. There is no right choice in this situation. Diddy's best option would probably be to foxtrot forward, to be able to counter all options but roll behind, which even pivot Fsmash could be probably. Then you have characters. Shiek is probably going to be fine, but ground based or slow characters? They don't want to be in the air against Diddy kong.

Dthrow for sure hits when Jump Cancelled and when really close to the opponent. However, when thrown on to the ground near an opponent, it will slide behind Diddy. Probably for balance and stuff. I have never seen it slide towards the opponent, but I haven't tested it in-depth.

 

[Paladinight]

Hey guys what's the inputs for Monkey Bounce? I can't seem to work it out or at the very least perform it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey guys what's the inputs for Monkey Bounce? I can't seem to work it out or at the very least perform it.

Monkey bounce? Monkey Flip B-Reverse Popgun?

 

[Pazx]

Hey guys what's the inputs for Monkey Bounce? I can't seem to work it out or at the very least perform it.

Do you know how to wavebounce specials? It's a wavebounced banana pluck or peanut popgun after a monkey flip, this guide may help you.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

Inputs should be as follows:

Monkey flip right -> wavebounce banana pluck

Or Monkey flip right -> wavebounce peanut popgun

If you want to cancel the popgun charge hold shield during the monkey flip. Inputs are mirrored for a monkey flip to the left.

edit: let's just call it what it is, naming conventions are bad

 

[Paladinight]

Monkey bounce? Monkey Flip B-Reverse Popgun?

Sorry Sonicninja115, I was just going by what Pazx wrote

Do you know how to wavebounce specials? It's a wavebounced banana pluck or peanut popgun after a monkey flip, this guide may help you.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

Inputs should be as follows:

Monkey flip right -> wavebounce banana pluck

Or Monkey flip right -> wavebounce peanut popgun

If you want to cancel the popgun charge hold shield during the monkey flip. Inputs are mirrored for a monkey flip to the left.

edit: let's just call it what it is, naming conventions are bad

Okay I got the Banana Pluck down but I still having difficulties in performing the wavebounce Peanut Popgun, are you meant to press the opposite direction right before you neutral special or can you hold it from the Monkey Flip?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do you know how to wavebounce specials? It's a wavebounced banana pluck or peanut popgun after a monkey flip, this guide may help you.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

Inputs should be as follows:

Monkey flip right -> wavebounce banana pluck

Or Monkey flip right -> wavebounce peanut popgun

If you want to cancel the popgun charge hold shield during the monkey flip. Inputs are mirrored for a monkey flip to the left.

edit: let's just call it what it is, naming conventions are bad

Aren't the inputs sorta difficult? I can wavebounce monados, but those are very different (You don't have to press B).

Sorry Sonicninja115, I was just going by what Pazx wrote




Okay I got the Banana Pluck down but I still having difficulties in performing the wavebounce Peanut Popgun, are you meant to press the opposite direction right before you neutral special or can you hold it from the Monkey Flip?

I misread some stuff, don't worry, and ignore my previous post.

 

[Pazx]

Sorry Sonicninja115, I was just going by what Pazx wrote




Okay I got the Banana Pluck down but I still having difficulties in performing the wavebounce Peanut Popgun, are you meant to press the opposite direction right before you neutral special or can you hold it from the Monkey Flip?

You want to briefly tap the opposite direction, let the stick return to neutral and then press B as quickly as you can before pushing the stick forwards. Alternatively you can hold back very very slightly on your control stick when you press B before pushing the stick forwards. I'm not 100% sure but I don't think you can hold backwards during the monkey flip, I'll try it out later.

 

[Jaylowww]

Hey guys what's the inputs for Monkey Bounce? I can't seem to work it out or at the very least perform it.

There are two ways to perform the wavebounce popgun. You can do it as shown in My Smash Corner (strict timing):

Or you can do it using the method shown by Reflex (requires remapping a shoulder button, but less strict timing):

I prefer using the second method since it's much easier to do.

As for the wavebounce banana, it's also covered in the My Smash Corner Video:

Note that you have to enter the initial / motion at the exact same frame or within 1 frame of each other for the wavebounce to work.

 

[Sonicninja115]

New frame trap on BF and DL. So there is the whole Uthrow-PF land-Usmash thing. But you can also go straight for Uair and then PF land Utilt to get the stock.

 

[Lylo]

Would you mind giving us the % range for that please?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Would you mind giving us the % range for that please?

Around 110%ish. It seems like the guy just messed up and misinputed Usmash, but I have to test it more to make sure. One thing that is weird, is the Uthrow-Uair trues at kill percents, but it is airdodgeable in a match. I believe hitstun cancelling comes into play here so I will have to test it.

Anyone want to look into this or expound on it? Pazx ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qjZEgqLbseE&feature=youtu.be

 

[HoSmash4]

Whats the best way to mash out of monkey flip, or at the very least, reduce the damage?

 

[Pazx]

Whats the best way to mash out of monkey flip, or at the very least, reduce the damage?

The same way you mash out of any ordinary grab I believe. If you mash jump there is a chance you will lose your double jump though, for reasons we don't quite understand.

I think DK or Bowser has an oddity (possibly in Brawl) where the fastest way to get out of their cargo/command grab is to hold up on the control stick, so there could be some weird situation like that going on, but imo best bet is just to spin control stick or mash face buttons, however you usually mash.

 

[OathToAwesome]

This works for every character, it's a shame Diddy doesn't have a particularly good usmash or up-b for this purpose though. I'll run you through it:

When you are shielding, pressing jump completely cancels the shield, as opposed to letting go of the shield button and then doing a move (which takes time). When you are in jumpsquat (the couple of frames before you actually leave the ground) you can cancel that into an up-smash or up-special.

You basically want to jump and then almost instantly input the usmash or up-b.

Is this also how Diddy uses banana OoS(ie a JC glide-toss)? And on that topic, how many frames does it take to throw a banana OoS? I've been trying to see if Sheik can do, say, landing fair (as late as possible while still autocancelling, most likely) on shield and jab to beat an OoS banana, as one of my state's top players loves to abuse that tactic on people who don't know how to deal with it.

 

[Pazx]

Is this also how Diddy uses banana OoS(ie a JC glide-toss)? And on that topic, how many frames does it take to throw a banana OoS? I've been trying to see if Sheik can do, say, landing fair (as late as possible while still autocancelling, most likely) on shield and jab to beat an OoS banana, as one of my state's top players loves to abuse that tactic on people who don't know how to deal with it.

To throw a banana out of shield you do not need to jump cancel it, you just press the attack button. Frame data for throwing OoS is the same as regular throw frame data, so the hitbox is generated on frame 7 if the banana is thrown forwards.

 

[Pixel_]

How does Diddy get kills?

 

[Pazx]

How does Diddy get kills?

Banana -> anything, including banana -> anything on this list
Dtilt -> Usmash
Dtilt -> RAR Bair/Fair
Dtilt -> Fsmash
Uthrow -> Uair

 

[xxmoosexx]

How does Diddy Kong deal with Captian Falcon?

I would rather not wait for the MU thread to get to it since it looks like it'll be a while. I regularly fight a CF at my tourneys, fests, and weeklies. He's pretty good. He's taken a few games off of PR'd people in my area.

How do I win neutral? I feel like Falcon keeps doing Falcon things and we lose but I know I'm not seeing everything. I play his game and not mine.

In neutral, usually dash grab, dash attack, with spaced aerials is CF. He's so quick that depending on his distance from me I can't react in time. I also can't keep him at distance to where he can't get a free dash in on my spaced fairs/banana/short hops.

I can usually capitalize once I get him off stage with ledge traps but getting to that point is something awful as well as getting out of our disadvantage states.

 

[Pazx]

How does Diddy Kong deal with Captian Falcon?

I would rather not wait for the MU thread to get to it since it looks like it'll be a while. I regularly fight a CF at my tourneys, fests, and weeklies. He's pretty good. He's taken a few games off of PR'd people in my area.

How do I win neutral? I feel like Falcon keeps doing Falcon things and we lose but I know I'm not seeing everything. I play his game and not mine.

In neutral, usually dash grab, dash attack, with spaced aerials is CF. He's so quick that depending on his distance from me I can't react in time. I also can't keep him at distance to where he can't get a free dash in on my spaced fairs/banana/short hops.

I can usually capitalize once I get him off stage with ledge traps but getting to that point is something awful as well as getting out of our disadvantage states.

TY for asking in this thread instead of making a new one

To me, the Falcon matchup is all about either having a banana in hand, or on the ground in front of you. Even though Falcon likes space to run around, I prefer flat stages like FD so I can control space better, as his approach options are rather limited despite being quick and hard to react to. If the banana is in between the two of you, he will likely either approach it slowly or dash attack to pick it up, both of these options are punishable. Try and condition him, if he reacts to your short hop fairs by shielding then that's a free monkey flip if you read it, and if he reacts to your short hop fairs by dashing away and then back in what you should do is try to take that stage control he's giving up. If you can IZAC fair it becomes even better as you're forcing him to take a defensive option when you have a banana in hand, meaning it will become much harder for him to break your zone again. If he's already committed to running towards you, a cross-up roll is a legitimately good option and you're unlikely to eat a hard punish unless you're at high percentages.

Be careful with your banana plucks, although the reward is huge Falcon is fast enough to punish you from most positions if you do it at the wrong time. Once you get him in the air, try to get a banana, Falcon does not have good landing options at all and this is how you'll rack up a lot of damage in this matchup. As for getting out of our disadvantage state, IMO just try to retreat to the ledge, or mix it up with monkey flip B reverse shenanigans. Try not to recover predictably though, Falcon can cover a lot of space with his speed and his down air.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

How much special lag is on Diddy Kong's Monkey Flip Kick? Is it significantly more when you miss the grab/kick? Or is it the same. Numbers would be nice and is what I'm particularly looking for, but even just letting me know if the kick or command grab has more lag would be nice as well.