Diddy will be the TOP 4 chars in brawl at high levels

[goodkid]

Its hard to say that diddy is a top 4 character, its still very debatable, but MK, Snake, & Falco are top 3 @ the moment, its still debatable between Wario/D3/other high tier. I mean if someone ever starts to camp w/ Olimar better, he should never be hit except w/ a projectile, even then pikmin can protect him.

 

[ADHD]

Yeah, but that's you, not the character, and I still got a combo off on you as well, cuz you were like "****, that is NOT happening again!"

I'm just saying that other characters CAN use bananas just as well, this isn't factoring players being better than others.

Sorry but you OBVIOUSLY have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing competes with the dash attack, or glide toss lengths. And his followups are FAR better than anyone else's. His ground speed makes combo'ing much easier, faster characters don't have the glide toss he does or the follow-ups. Simply learning to handle the bananas helps but I (and much more) are used to fighting people who adapted long before by now. Its rare that I've fought someone who didn't know how to deal with them.

 

[hichez50]

I dont understand why falco wins so many touneys but diddy probally will be top tier for the rest of brawl unless their is a universal technique that benefits more with charater choice

 

[DFEAR]

like seriously there hasnt been a match where all my opponents will just catch my bananas when i throw them. diddy has mindgames son

 

[PhantomX]

Eh, poor word choice on my part there. When I said just as well I didn't mean it literally, I just sort of said it

Naturally no one can compete with a character who's entire game is centered/created around using the bananas, but that doesn't mean they aren't dangerous in the hands of other particular characters.

 

[Plum]

at people who say G&W will fall...
But I will say that he is in the same position as DDD. Each character's metagame hasn't done anything in so long.. Well at least G&W has bucket braking. It is too good. I have gotten into the 200%'s against characters like Diddy by playing smart.

I really can't see Diddy hitting top 4. Yes he does well against most of the top tiers but just look at who is ahead of him on the current list (though outdated yes.. but that's what we have to go off of). MK, Snake, Falco, DDD, G&W, and Marth.

Definitely better than Marth, I would say G&W is debatable, and the other 4 I would say is currently out of the question.
In the long run maybe. I see G&W falling to like 6th or 7th just because he is such a solid character but won't have anything new. G&W players will eventually just have to be the better player once people find ways around him; I see 4th place staying with DDD or going to Wario before Diddy.

 

[white peachy]

at people who say G&W will fall...
But I will say that he is in the same position as DDD. Each character's metagame hasn't done anything in so long.. Well at least G&W has bucket braking. It is too good. I have gotten into the 200%'s against characters like Diddy by playing smart.

I really can't see Diddy hitting top 4. Yes he does well against most of the top tiers but just look at who is ahead of him on the current list (though outdated yes.. but that's what we have to go off of). MK, Snake, Falco, DDD, G&W, and Marth.

Definitely better than Marth, I would say G&W is debatable, and the other 4 I would say is currently out of the question.
In the long run maybe. I see G&W falling to like 6th or 7th just because he is such a solid character but won't have anything new. G&W players will eventually just have to be the better player once people find ways around him; I see 4th place staying with DDD or going to Wario before Diddy.

I don't really think G&W is debatable that's just me. I think he has more growing potential than both G&W and DDD. He's better than Marth IMO and could very likely end up being better than Falco. I don't see why top 4 as a tournament character seems so unrealistic to people. I also don't get the "find ways around him" statement. It seems like that suggests his metagame is relatively simplistic which it is not....like....at all. I also think we've gone over matchups with other top tiers with Wario and shown that Diddy has as much if not more potential than him. If you get to 200% against diddy than he either A. Isn't playing well at all or B. Isn't very good with diddy. Diddy's "lack of kill power" is growsly overstated IMO. He's not samus....

 

[ADHD]

Killing is annoying though, if only diddy had snake's utilt, if only

Metaknights will live up to 140 pretty much if they have perfect DI (mew2king/shadow) and DDD for god sakes lives to 180 each stock and there's nothing you can really do about it. You're right though, its nowhere near the level of samus. Diddy has set-up and he can make up for this so-so killing ability by brining his enemies to the edge of the stage.

 

[DFEAR]

thats why we needs teh hxc gimping abilities

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

diddy has potential indeed, he should be high tier, but not in the top 4.

yes diddy is better with nanas then the rest of the cast, but ZSS also has a low knockback long duration glide attack, a strong glide toss, and possibilitys to combo out a trip. just to name a character. warios almost always airborne and has a long lasting dair, wont do much good against diddys nanas.

nanas are overrated atm, i think the hype will tone down soonish.

 

[BentoBox]

I dont understand why falco wins so many touneys but diddy probally will be top tier for the rest of brawl unless their is a universal technique that benefits more with charater choice

Falco wins a lot of tourneys?

 

[DMG]

diddy has potential indeed, he should be high tier, but not in the top 4.

yes diddy is better with nanas then the rest of the cast, but ZSS also has a low knockback long duration glide attack, a strong glide toss, and possibilitys to combo out a trip. just to name a character. warios almost always airborne and has a long lasting dair, wont do much good against diddys nanas.

nanas are overrated atm, i think the hype will tone down soonish.

You don't seem to understand how important Banana's really are to his game.

It's not always about tripping your opponent, or even hitting them with a banana, it's the added mobility/flexibility of options it gives Diddy that gives him an edge consistently throughout the match vs most opponents.

 

[rvkevin]

Sorry but you OBVIOUSLY have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing competes with the dash attack, or glide toss lengths. And his followups are FAR better than anyone else's. His ground speed makes combo'ing much easier, faster characters don't have the glide toss he does or the follow-ups. Simply learning to handle the bananas helps but I (and much more) are used to fighting people who adapted long before by now. Its rare that I've fought someone who didn't know how to deal with them.

You sir, have not faced a good Wolf.

 

[ADHD]

^ Why does it matter? Diddy can do alot of things to wolf as well.

 

[Diddyknight]

Even if yo do fight a good wolf, Diddy can do things to wolf. Wolfs can space amazingly well from what ive fought with Diddy. Diffrent setups and pressure can challenge wolfs wall of Bair. Wolfs weight makes him Easy to combo against. While wolf can do bair bair to Fsmash etc...55/45 Diddy
...Wolf is easy to gimp

Chrome wins =3

 

[ADHD]

Wolf gets ***** by utilt and bthrow/fthrow because of how fast he falls and his recovery can be gimped by peanuts and bananas. Don't get naner locked if you're wolf, you take ALOT of damage bc of how short his trip animation is. Wolf is annoying though but its not like it interefers with diddy's tier placement whatsoever. Theres DDDs and metaknights about

 

[Diddyknight]

yup and possibly marrths >.>

 

[BentoBox]

Wolf actually goes even with Marth.

 

[rvkevin]

I''m not talking about tier placement, you just said that nobody handles bananas better than Diddy, but Wolf handles them just as well if not better. His Fair picks them up easily and has enough priority to deter attacks. His followups are just as good, Item Toss to Dsmash, banana to Boost Smash, which combos if glide tossed. Btw, its easier to gimp Diddy with Wolf than the other way around since most good Wolfs conserve their second jump so they won't get gimped. It definitely won't effect Diddy's tier because Wolf loses to most of the high tier...but its no pushover for Diddy, IMO, its in Wolf's favor.

Whos Wolf did you play? Last time I checked there were no good Wolfs in New Jersey...

 

[white peachy]

I''m not talking about tier placement, you just said that nobody handles bananas better than Diddy, but Wolf handles them just as well if not better. His Fair picks them up easily and has enough priority to deter attacks. His followups are just as good, Item Toss to Dsmash, banana to Boost Smash, which combos if glide tossed. Btw, its easier to gimp Diddy with Wolf than the other way around since most good Wolfs conserve their second jump so they won't get gimped. It definitely won't effect Diddy's tier because Wolf loses to most of the high tier...but its no pushover for Diddy, IMO, its in Wolf's favor.

Whos Wolf did you play? Last time I checked there were no good Wolfs in New Jersey...

What do you mean by Wolf handling bananas as well as diddy? Fair and dash attack both have a fairly significant amount of landing/wind down lag. I can't imagine approaching naners with Wolf's fair being a very effective tactic as a result of that landing lag, Diddy will punish that. Diddy's dash attack is way better at controling naners than wolf's. Good diddy's also will use rocket barrel cancel and short hop z-catch naners off of sheild. I think wolf can do fairly well against diddy but I wouldn't go so far as to say he has the advantage in the matchup, I think it's pretty close to even personally.

...also how exactly can Wolf gimp diddy consistently? I'm more curious than sarcastic/facetious, because I can't really think of how he would go about doing that at all.

 

[Bellioes]

If you say that good wolfs know how to conserve their second jump so as not to get gimped, cant we say the same thing about good diddys? That doesnt sound like a solid argument to me.

@White Peachy: You can actually autocancel Wolfs Fair but you have to execute the attack as soon as you jump. But that sortve defeats the purpose of using it to catch bananas cause you probably wont be able to time it so that you Fair as soon as you jump and catch the banana at the same time. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[_Phloat_]

What do you mean by Wolf handling bananas as well as diddy? Fair and dash attack both have a fairly significant amount of landing/wind down lag. I can't imagine approaching naners with Wolf's fair being a very effective tactic as a result of that landing lag, Diddy will punish that. Diddy's dash attack is way better at controling naners than wolf's. Good diddy's also will use rocket barrel cancel and short hop z-catch naners off of sheild. I think wolf can do fairly well against diddy but I wouldn't go so far as to say he has the advantage in the matchup, I think it's pretty close to even personally.

...also how exactly can Wolf gimp diddy consistently? I'm more curious than sarcastic/facetious, because I can't really think of how he would go about doing that at all.

If the wolf uses his fair soon enough from his jump, it has no lag.

 

[rvkevin]

You know that Wolf can do lagless Fairs, right?...so it harder than you think to punish...not to mention that his Fair has priority over Diddy's Dash Attack, Fair, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49PkrNJmxg&feature=channel_page
Sorry for the poor example, but when spaced correctly a lagless Fair is hard to punish.

He can shine gimp you, basically if you recover vertically, he can fall and shine from the ledge and recover. If you try to recover horizontally, he can jump shine to knock you out of the barrels...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq1vCtv1wKU&feature=channel_page

Diddy's recovery takes longer to use because you need to charge it meaning he has more time to get in position to gimp you. Also, he can gimp you whether or not you aim for the edge or the stage. Wolf's recovery on the other hand is almost instantaneous and can go through most stages meaning you can't just edgehog him for the gimp. The reason for saying good Wolf's need their second jump is so they can get high enough to use their side B, otherwise they need to use their Up B and risk getting stage spiked...So it is more important for a Wolf to save their second jump than it is for Diddy to do so.

 

[white peachy]

If you say that good wolfs know how to conserve their second jump so as not to get gimped, cant we say the same thing about good diddys? That doesnt sound like a solid argument to me.

@White Peachy: You can actually autocancel Wolfs Fair but you have to execute the attack as soon as you jump. But that sortve defeats the purpose of using it to catch bananas cause you probably wont be able to time it so that you Fair as soon as you jump and catch the banana at the same time. Just wanted to point that out.

I know it can be auto-cancelled as an approach, I think he is referring to using it to pick them off the ground though.

EDIT: Ahh, so you're just referring to aerial catching. I thought you meant using a Fair to "pick" it off the ground, that's why I was confused. Lots of characters have reliable aerials for catching naners though, that doesn't necessarily make them better at controlling them however.

And most diddy's probably won't recover vertically if the wolf/fox is ledgehogging. Lots of characters can gimp diddy with nairs or in marths case fairs. I still think peanuts and naner edge tricks make diddy better at gimping wolf than the reverse.

 

[ADHD]

You know that Wolf can do lagless Fairs, right?...so it harder than you think to punish...not to mention that his Fair has priority over Diddy's Dash Attack, Fair, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49PkrNJmxg&feature=channel_page
Sorry for the poor example, but when spaced correctly a lagless Fair is hard to punish.

He can shine gimp you, basically if you recover vertically, he can fall and shine from the ledge and recover. If you try to recover horizontally, he can jump shine to knock you out of the barrels...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq1vCtv1wKU&feature=channel_page

Lol this ain't fox we're talking about here. Wolf's doesn't stall mid-air, making this tactic so dangerous because he can be stage spiked if diddy times the barrel out. Even if fox is spamming his shine and diddy is recovering from below its a 50% chance diddy will make it back up; and wolf's doesn't even stall.

Oh, after seeing the video I see now. That won't ever work on someone that knows about that XD, diddy will side b from below or sweetspot the edge.

 

[white peachy]

You also wouldn't have to charge the upB at the height Wolf would need you to be at to shinespike and survive. You'd need a lot of things to go right for that one gimp to work on the Diddy. And the chances of it ever working on the same diddy twice are pretty slim....

 

[rvkevin]

You also wouldn't have to charge the upB at the height Wolf would need you to be at to shinespike and survive. You'd need a lot of things to go right for that one gimp to work on the Diddy. And the chances of it ever working on the same diddy twice are pretty slim....

As long as he can second jump and Up B back up to the ledge, Diddy is in range of being shine spiked and Wolf will still be able to recover...So you would basically have to be right above the bottom of the map and then you may have a chance, that is if he doesn't ledge hog you. Its harder to avoid than you think...

 

[Advent Lee]

Diddy IS the best character in the game. Period. I have been saying this since day 1 and will continue with this train of thought. Best gimper, most true combos, peanut gun, give it some time and you guys will see what I'm saying.

Other characters that I see have potential to be in Brawls top tier: Snake, Ice Climbers, MK...



-advent-

 

[DMG]

Ice Climbers lose too hard to campers. MK, Snake, Wario, G&W, Diddy, even characters like Jigglypuff and Kirby give them a hard time if they just run away.

 

[ADHD]

Diddy isn't the best XD, that will always be metaknight, then snake.

 

[DelxDoom]

Wolf is too simple of a character.

IC's rely on grabbing while the other Ice Climber is ready. At a top level each grab in this situation should mean a stock, but atm even the best IC players mess up sometimes. The main problem is the grab setup, which they are surely working on. The problem is that it is possible to powershield most stuff that would set up a grab and then you can just roll/jump whatever against the grab.
When IC's are set in their disadvantaged position (separated) the opponent should kill Nana and then take advantage of Popo's recovery.



Diddy's main problem is KOing and banana control, and he should not have too much problems racking up 80% damage at first with bananas and controlling them. If the opponent can negate the banana game (Falco's reflector as an example) then the Diddy must find ways to either make his banana game more effective or not rely on them. The great thing about Diddy's reliance on banana control is that the most disadvantaged the Diddy player can get is if the opponent is in control of both bananas, then the Diddy can simply run away and camp until they run out while shooting peanuts xD
Killing is the bigger issue, Diddy players must utilize gimps to kill at lower percentages with spikes, simple edge guarding, or those side b / footstool things. I know there is a combo at the edge with a banana into a dair spike on basically all characters, that should be worked upon because Diddy does a good job near the edge (people rolling towards the edge after slipping on a banana should get *****) otherwise, fair killing at 200% is stupid.

Metaknight already has it all; good counters, good offense that is hard to counter, good gimping.
He can be killed more easily than the rest of the cast as long as he's not countering and doing his hard to counter crap but that is not much of a weakness.

Snake is the best or second best character IMO, best defense and best stage control but situational. Even so, he has a nice time killing and can camp with nades and space with ftilt. He's got some vulnerability in the air but his ground game is ridiculously good.

Falco is pretty good, he's got great advantage from a grab at low percents and has some good moves and that great laser. Eh, sometimes has a hard time killing.

Dedede is difficult to kill and gets to do 25%+ from a grab in some situations. He is very disruptive with side b and ftilt and can kill at 100%+ semi easily with utilt, and sometimes with a lucky Gordo side b and with bair and fair and a lot of pretty lame stuff. His main weaknesses may be his size and his sometimes vulnerability in the air.

i dunno diddy's stuff just doesn't seem top 4 to me.

 

[Advent Lee]

Diddy isn't the best XD, that will always be metaknight, then snake.

LoL



-advent-

 

[ADHD]

Diddy is the top 4 and I will have some things to prove it that I will post later. People are saying that if you understand the matchup 100% against diddy kong he wont be able to do well, but thats absolutely a lie. ill have videos of me vs shadow, NL, and snakeee who face diddys regularly

 

[Count]

I think I can convince myself of diddy being top four, but at the same time I agree with le thien quite a bit and his points.

Advent-didn't you almost drop diddy for meta knight? When did you opinion change on this?

 

[Advent Lee]

Advent-didn't you almost drop diddy for meta knight? When did you opinion change on this?

I always thought Diddy was the best. And only used MK because I was out of practice and it was easier to win with him for that time lolz.



-advent-

 

[DFEAR]

im hoping ur coming back to the scene advent .

doom makes a valid point. but to me as stubborn as i am i believe that accomplishing a complete mindfuk with diddy is possible cuase of the bananas. its excellent pressure and its lol to tech chase someone that keeps tripping xD. its easier so than tech chasing snakes dgrab which is fun to do but not as satisfying as diddys pressuring opponents rolls . mindgames> tiers

 

[Le_THieN]

Diddy is the top 4 and I will have some things to prove it that I will post later. People are saying that if you understand the matchup 100% against diddy kong he wont be able to do well, but thats absolutely a lie. ill have videos of me vs shadow, NL, and snakeee who face diddys regularly

LOL.

Wyatt, my counterpoints aren't "lies"; they are just alternative predictions. At the end of the day, both of us are just waxing poetic about two very distinct trajectories for Diddy Kong's meta-game; and both of us have offered valid points for our respective sides that demonstrate how the mere presence of certain elements can inch the meta-game closer to one column of fortune-telling against the other.

At this relatively early stage in the lifespan of Brawl, it can swing either way. I don't know why you feel so strongly about tier list placement (which is, in my opinion, absolutely meaningless) to the point that you feel like you have to "prove me wrong." In my mind, there's nothing you can state to even persuasively argue your case, because we're both just making predictions about how things will develop - things that we can't even observe until a year or two more down the road.

I've already said my piece, and I'm quite comfy riding solo in the bandwagon I've committed to. =) Of course, don't let that deter you from additional discussion for the sake of discussion.

 

[ADHD]

Not you thien, there was like one or two people that disagreed without good reasoning at all.

 

[Le_THieN]

Not you thien, there was like one or two people that disagreed without good reasoning at all.

LOL

Yeah, **** those guys

 

[GDX]

LOL

Yeah, **** those guys

lol. thien is too good

who you going with for world hobo?