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Raziek

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so the fact that you are allowed to sit down and not say it in class is fine then.
@EE-I'd read it if you can find it.
No, it's not.
Define forced upon for me, please.
Forced upon in this case is essentially being subjected to it whether you choose to participate or not.

In this case, I feel that having a time slot dedicated to it is a problem. You want to say it, fine. But the fact that time is taken out of class to do so creates an exclusionary situation where those who do NOT say it have the potential to feel ostracized as a result.

Consider a parallel. Imagine you went to a church for some other purpose than worship. A bake sale, maybe. Or a community function.

Would it not be awkward if everyone else engaged in prayer? You have the option to not pray, but regardless of your choice, you are still subjected to the situation. I've been in that situation, and it's awkward as hell, to the point that you almost feel compelled to at least PRETEND, even if you don't engage in the practice.

That's why I have the problem. Participating in the ACT is not mandatory, but there's no way to escape the SITUATION without causing anxiety or discomfort for the excluded party.

Repeating once more for clarity: The pledge itself is not the problem. Being subjected to that sort of situation is.

Counter-hypothetical: Interchange the Pledge of Allegiance with... say.... a passage from the Qu'Ran? Is it still ok to have that sort of time slot dedicated to it? Would it make people uncomfortable in a public school? (I realize I'm crossing a border between politics and religion, but I feel it's functionally the same concept here)
 

#HBC | Dancer

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Argo touches on Ajax? Because...



That is totally different and decades after Ajax. Unless Ajax and Mossadegh are covered as a past event leading up to the events of the film or something
At the very beginning of the film it touches on the subject of how America's CIA helped overthrow Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of Reza Pahlavi (the "yes man" as you called him) with the interest of oil in mind. It also went over how Reza was apparently a terrible leader who lived a luxurious live style that couldn't of been supported. The movie does this so to lead up to the present time when the movie takes place.

Besides from the beginning (which isn't even completely true), the movie plays it loose with the facts from what I've heard. I'm not recommending it based on historical accuracy, but just because it's a good movie.

I just felt like bringing it up because I wanted to recommend the movie to people, plus it felt appropriate given the subject of the conversation.
 

ranmaru

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I think it's just hard for us to see it as a problem since we just saw it as honoring our country I guess. Not that I cared about the pledge, nor do I remember the exact words. (Although I can't even remember prayer either, or lyrics so :V )

I think it's easier for people outside of the USA to see the pledge (I mean being subjected to it) as a problem. Being forced to do it was kinda dumb.
 

Raziek

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I left out a critical detail in the comparison there.

School is not a place where that sort of thing is the purpose. The purpose of school is to learn, not to recite the pledge or a prayer or what have you. You have to be there to learn, but you're being subjected to the other.

If I don't want to be subjected to prayer, I just don't go to church. You can't just not go to school.
 

ranmaru

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God I'm so damn sleepy and I had some random daydream of lampy/blanket possibly encoutering a lady in the shower? I don't even know, I can't tell because I'm falling asleep.

Anyways carry on Dbates.
 

Handorin

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God I'm so damn sleepy and I had some random daydream of lampy/blanket possibly encoutering a lady in the shower? I don't even know, I can't tell because I'm falling asleep.

Anyways carry on Dbates.
Was Vacuum there? He's awesome.
And the AC is intense. He BLEW UP

:phone:
 

Evil Eye

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Kudos to Ben Affleck for having the balls to bring Ajax to light at all, then, even in the form of an entertaining non-historically accurate film. That whole affair should be taught in every American history course imo.

On topic, the ability to choose not to participate in the pledge does little. By having it at all there's an implicit expectation to take part, and even if there manages to be absolutely no stigma or pressure to not taking part (unlikely and impractical expectation) you're still subjected to it, as Raz said. That effectively makes you a passive participant, even though you're not forced to recite the words
 

ranmaru

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When he was fixed and he started to get teary eyed... That warmed me up!

And of course, my fave part was the junk yard and the Death magnet/Crusher. DAYUMM that crusher.

(Also no, couldn't tell who else was there, it was one of those one second 'fall asleep' kinda things)
 

ranmaru

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Also the sound of the Death Magnet was so COOL. Perfect combination of MENACING and MUFFLED. It's a sound you would WANT to hear but you wouldn't be able to. A SILENT killer.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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In this case, I feel that having a time slot dedicated to it is a problem. You want to say it, fine. But the fact that time is taken out of class to do so creates an exclusionary situation where those who do NOT say it have the potential to feel ostracized as a result.
And this becomes BETTER when limited to special functions? I would think the looks you would get at an isolated event and resulting gossip would be infinitely worse than what I've seen in public schools (read: a **** ton of apathy) even from a painfully Christian school.

Consider a parallel. Imagine you went to a church for some other purpose than worship. A bake sale, maybe. Or a community function.

Would it not be awkward if everyone else engaged in prayer? You have the option to not pray, but regardless of your choice, you are still subjected to the situation. I've been in that situation, and it's awkward as hell, to the point that you almost feel compelled to at least PRETEND, even if you don't engage in the practice.
Not particularly, actually. Because I'm there for a BAKE SALE and I walked into a church knowing it was a church.

In public schools and the media today, it is explicitly pointed out that you have the option to not follow suit. You can not participate or simply omit two words, and unlike the church situation, you're in a group of people similarly informed that it is okay who really don't give two ****s.

That's why I have the problem. Participating in the ACT is not mandatory, but there's no way to escape the SITUATION without causing anxiety or discomfort for the excluded party.
You lost me. Unless you're talking about the stigma of not being college-bound which is something I find unavoidable without going to college. I know plenty of people who never took the ACT and don't get any **** for it.

Unless you're talking about a different acronym.

Repeating once more for clarity: The pledge itself is not the problem. Being subjected to that sort of situation is.

Counter-hypothetical: Interchange the Pledge of Allegiance with... say.... a passage from the Qu'Ran? Is it still ok to have that sort of time slot dedicated to it? Would it make people uncomfortable in a public school? (I realize I'm crossing a border between politics and religion, but I feel it's functionally the same concept here)
I'm curious where the problem with the situation comes from which is why I changed the situation. Your hypothetical is one that clearly promotes support for a religion without establishing the meaning of "under god" in that context and without giving me any context for the passage (such as whether it is included as a part of another whole or what values it is promoting).
 

Handorin

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I read it as "act" when I read the original post. Then when I read the quote I read it as A-C-T, then when I read his question about the ACT I was thinking, "no, he meant action, not ACT". Haha

:phone:
 

adumbrodeus

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Ryker, hypothetical question, would you feel differently if the words "under god" were added specifically to exclude atheists instead of just being part of the historical context of the pledge?
 

Raziek

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@Ryker:
I left out a critical detail in the comparison there.

School is not a place where that sort of thing is the purpose. The purpose of school is to learn, not to recite the pledge or a prayer or what have you. You have to be there to learn, but you're being subjected to the other.

If I don't want to be subjected to prayer, I just don't go to church. You can't just not go to school.
The problem I have, is again, the passive participation thing.

I can't get away from it realistically. You can say there's no stigma to participate, but you know that's a load of **** and peer pressure is very clearly a thing, even if you do not give in to it.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Ryker, hypothetical question, would you feel differently if the words "under god" were added specifically to exclude atheists instead of just being part of the historical context of the pledge?
I'm not a revisionist. I'm playing devil's advocate at the moment. Personally, I would never have added it, but having been through public school, I feel it actually is trivial enough that I don't care one way or another and would go with whatever causes less hassle. If that means leaving it, then I don't care.

As for your question, I would love if it actually were to include atheists. They're a bunch of *** holes. Agnostics are much cuter.

Realistically, no. I really don't care if it was added specifically, I care about current and likely future perception which is not to exclude atheists. If it were not, then I would likely still not care and continue to lean towards getting rid of it, changing nothing about my personal stance. You can't get away from proving the meaning is with a hypothetical question. The entire issue boils down to the intention behind the phrase.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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The problem I have, is again, the passive participation thing.

I can't get away from it realistically. You can say there's no stigma to participate, but you know that's a load of **** and peer pressure is very clearly a thing, even if you do not give in to it.
Welcome to school. Welcome to children. You are not getting away from peer pressure, regardless. If anything, the fact that the pledge gives them an outlet that is recognized as officially acceptable allows them to avoid being more painfully ostracized when their stance comes out. It's infinitely more dramatic that way and you know how teens love to play up drama.
 

adumbrodeus

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I'm not a revisionist. I'm playing devil's advocate at the moment. Personally, I would never have added it, but having been through public school, I feel it actually is trivial enough that I don't care one way or another and would go with whatever causes less hassle. If that means leaving it, then I don't care.

As for your question, I would love if it actually were to include atheists. They're a bunch of *** holes. Agnostics are much cuter.

Realistically, no. I really don't care if it was added specifically, I care about current and likely future perception which is not to exclude atheists. If it were not, then I would likely still not care and continue to lean towards getting rid of it, changing nothing about my personal stance. You can't get away from proving the meaning is with a hypothetical question. The entire issue boils down to the intention behind the phrase.
Ah, I believe I misunderstood your position then.

Regardless, it's worth providing a bit of historical context here. Adding the words "under god" to the pledge was first done by the Knights of Columbus and was added to the national pledge in response to a resolution sent by them to various heads of the US government to combat communism.

The idea was, how could an atheist pledge allegiance to one nation under god? "In god we trust" as the national motto has a similar history.

Speaking as a catholic, I consider it a problem, but the reason why I consider it a significant problem (moreso then many other relics of establishment) is because it's designed to exclude atheists and it's performed in our public schools so it does have an effect on the mentality of people. The pledge is designed to instill patriotism, but it ties that patriotism with theism and that's not exactly an easy mentality to get rid of.

It shows, atheists are the most distrusted minority group, only 45% of Americans would vote for a qualified atheist for president for example (though we're not the only country that distrust atheists). Removing the institutions that condition our young to see atheists as unamerican would help a lot in ending this discrimination.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Regardless, it's worth providing a bit of historical context here. Adding the words "under god" to the pledge was first done by the Knights of Columbus and was added to the national pledge in response to a resolution sent by them to various heads of the US government to combat communism.
The two words were added in 1954, during the height of McCarthyism, for the record.
Yep .
 

adumbrodeus

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Fair enough, but it still does say a lot about the modern implications of having those 2 words in the pledge.


Welcome to school. Welcome to children. You are not getting away from peer pressure, regardless. If anything, the fact that the pledge gives them an outlet that is recognized as officially acceptable allows them to avoid being more painfully ostracized when their stance comes out. It's infinitely more dramatic that way and you know how teens love to play up drama.
An outlet to rebel against doesn't make the ostracizism any less intense though, frankly given that it's instilling it subtly it's gonna signifigantly increase the intensity of ostracism. Obviously it gives them in-roads into "transgressive" groups, but it forces them into those groups. What about they're past the rebellious stage? It encourages a view that they can never be normal.
 

BSL

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@Ryker:


The problem I have, is again, the passive participation thing.

I can't get away from it realistically. You can say there's no stigma to participate, but you know that's a load of **** and peer pressure is very clearly a thing, even if you do not give in to it.
Pressure to participate in the pledge is coming from my peers. That just means I'm being pressured into being a conformist. It has nothing to do with the government or the potential brainwashing that has been brought up.

It's not even that much pressure, though.

I stopped saying it once I learned what the words meant. "Why am I pledging allegiance to a flag or a government? I don't fully support everything my government does, so pledging allegiance would be a farce and would also demean the act of pledging allegiance."

As for your question, I would love if it actually were to include atheists. They're a bunch of *** holes. Agnostics are much cuter.
I'm not an *** hole, am I? I thought you liked me, Ryker! :c





On to what I'd like to say about the issue at hand.

I have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge's existence is not of any harm. It was created by a magazine company in an attempt to promote both Columbus Day before it was a federal holiday and nationalism. The US government does not require any recitation or time allotted for recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. All laws regarding this are state laws. Some states have no laws regarding the Pledge of Allegiance.

The problem that I do have is the requirement to say the Pledge in school. It was said earlier that schools are meant to educate children. I agree completely. They should not have time set aside for anything other than learning, unless it is something like eating, recess, etc. There should be no moment of silence for prayer. There should be no break in class time for pledging allegiance. I can think of no other example. However, if a school board decides it needs to be instituted because it helps students learn (it'd have to be one hell of an argument, IMO), then by all means go for it.


If there was a rule against saying the Pledge of Allegiance at any time, I would have a problem with that as well.

So really, I just don't think it's any group's place to weigh in on whether or not the Pledge of Allegiance should be recited, unless that group is discussing the schedule of government meetings. It is also not exclusive to the Pledge of Allegiance.
 

#HBC | Nabe

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{In which Nabe is cryptic in order to incite public interest in mysterious projects.}

Very interesting discussion, don't let me interrupt. Please continue to have it around me while I talk a little shop though.



Topic 1
Someone who likes reading past games (besides Ran) should PM me. Ran, get in touch with me too (although I suspect you're busy with school).

J-baby should also PM me if / when he sees this or other people see this and tell him. (Not about you-know-what, which I did start yesterday. I'm only on the first CD, I'll let you know when I'm farther along.)

Same thing @Soldier II, minus the cryptic part in brackets (the lack of which doesn't mean I don't like you). It's about DG so we should chat if nothing else. PM me.

@Ryker too, you could PM me because it might be up your alley as well. You're more likely to be interested in latter portions of this project, so do not feel obligated to talk to me a.s.a.p. And bear in mind this is all hush-hush, I know the DSkypers like to chat.


Topic 2
@Adumb: I'm starting to do a bit of materials review as prep on that one project, so feel free to message me if you already have ideas you've been mulling over or other stuff to chat about.

Otherwise, this is just a reminder to don your thinking cap. I'm hoping to have a first draft by February next year. I don't think the queue will move up in time for it to run coinciding with S3 (end of March) but by the time S3 is approaching an end (May-June) I should be in place. That's exciting given what happens with NW in III, and could make for a tie-in which I think is worth considering. (I forget if you watch or not.)

Take your time PMing me, like I said I'm just into pre-prep now.
 

BSL

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But it's not about two words. It's about the practice of reciting a Pledge of Allegiance.
 

Dooms

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands.

One nation, under God, indivisible.

With liberty and justice for all.




Children are asked to repeat these few sentences almost daily for years on. If you ask me, it's creepy as ****. I'm not even exaggerating here, it's really a creepy concept to me.

As someone who went to a Christian school, I was taught religious songs before I knew those words. My first English sentence is probably "Read the bible, pray every day". By the time I learned what it meant I stopped participating.
Meh. It's mind control at worst.
After seeing several people (foreign exchange students included with non-religious) get sent to the Sargent in our school to get yelled at and get detention for not participating in the pledge... I feel that it's pretty dumb too >.>'. Some teachers don't care, some will get you into serious **** for it :/.

Thank god people just assume that I'm too timid to say it out loud :D.

 

BSL

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I remember when I got to high school and was baffled that I didn't have to stand for our anthem to start every morning.
Wait, you guys stand and sing the anthem in class every day?
 

BarDulL

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Regarding the pledge: I used to intentionally not raise my right hand over my heart or stand up during class, but that was more or less because I was a rebel without a cause. Looking back on it now, I really had no reason not to participate outside of my own rebellious and self centered youthful character. If I had the chance to do it all over again, I'd probably participate in it on the grounds that society is certainly a good thing, and while there are some unfortunate repercussions to abiding by societal rule, it's for the best. That being said, I believe in this country and what it has accomplished.

(I'm such a ameriweenie, lol.)

I do think that the word "God" in the pledge is a little outdated though since religion with government has always sparked controversy. It might be officially removed within the decade.

Nabe's enigmatic post
He's posting it in here instead of just PM'ing everyone, so it's a blatant attempt at capturing interest from everyone, and yet...it's working on me...aghgagrgahrhhhfhh.
 

BSP

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After seeing several people (foreign exchange students included with non-religious) get sent to the Sargent in our school to get yelled at and get detention for not participating in the pledge... I feel that it's pretty dumb too >.>'. Some teachers don't care, some will get you into serious **** for it :/.

That's pretty silly.
 
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