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[Raziek]

I understand that completely, but that goes into differences of people. Not everyone is going to share the same opinion, not everyone is going to agree on everything. If we lived in a world without subconscious thought and ideals, then we wouldn't be living. Our values and morals make us who we are. For me, I value my country and I understand that the pledge is simply a common principle. Gheb might not be able to see this because he doesn't live here, and that's perfectly fine. It is not really worth something debating as I am only one person who one meager opinion. My posts aren't to persuade, but to understand.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems to be incredibly vague, generic, and doesn't really address anything I actually said.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah, so America sucks at brainwashing people. How is the pledge supposed to brainwash little kids when they have no idea what "pledge" and "allegiance" mean, and thereore probably don't mean what they're saying?

You're teaching it to little kids so it becomes "normal" before they really know what they're saying. By the time they do understand it, the fact that they've always done it and all other relevant factors continues the trend.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

not calling you a zealot, just the most relevant image I could find

I sincerely doubt that the Jefferson, Madison, and possibly Washington quotes are not referencing a nationally recognized church similar to the English government from recent memory.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

There isn't a right answer, which is why that is Raziek. I merely stated in a formal manner, that everything is subjective.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How is the pledge supposed to brainwash little kids when they have no idea what "pledge" and "allegiance" mean, and thereore probably don't mean what they're saying?

I think this is the key term here:

subconscious ingraining that you don't perceive a problem with

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wouldn't a nation founded on the principles of Christianity (God in the Western world) make Christianity the state religion though, Ryker? :v

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Gheb
Where does the issue evolve into having this though, why is this a bad thing? I seriously don't understand the problem. You take the words brainwashing and ingratiation as some sort of blight. We live everyday with common rules and principles, what makes it different from them? I don't need to theorize or present past history when the theme is very clear.

 

[Orboknown]

separation of church and state was must meant to say that the us government couldn't endorse a specific religion like the English church back at the time.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Wouldn't a nation founded on the principles of Christianity (God) make Christianity the state religion though, Ryker? :v

Maybe a history class taught in the U.S. would inform you of how many religions, Protestant and otherwise, that the colonies that made up the original 13 states practiced? :v

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

@Ryker:

The thing is is that "God" is pretty closely associated with religion, especially the Christen one here in America. One might make the argument that "God" is vague enough to the point where it doesn't support anyone religion, but I have two counter arguments to that:

1. The mentioning on "God" excludes nonbelieves and religious people who don't necessarily hold a God in their religion.

2. Come'on, it's ****in' America. Lets be real, when someone saids the word "God" here, what "God" do you think they're talking about?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

You're teaching it to little kids so it becomes "normal" before they really know what they're saying. By the time they do understand it, the fact that they've always done it and all other relevant factors continues the trend.

And they still don't mean it. If they're going to brainwash the pople, the victims have to THINK all of that. Just making them say it isn't enough, as clearly repetition doesn't work.

As such, America sucks at brainwahing people.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Maybe a history class taught in the U.S. would inform you of how many religions, Protestant and otherwise, that the colonies that made up the original 13 states practiced? :v

Yes this is a perfectly valid point that invalidates what I was getting at.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

DGamers Do Debate

Today's Topic:
America - Land of the Free?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

@Ryker:

The thing is is that "God" is pretty closely associated with religion, especially the Christen one here in America. One might make the argument that "God" is vague enough to the point where it doesn't support anyone religion, but I have two counter arguments to that:

1. The mentioning on "God" excludes nonbelieves and religious people who don't necessarily hold a God in their religion.

2. Come'on, it's ****in' America. Lets be real, when someone saids the word "God" here, what "God" do you think they're talking about?

The ****? I was responding about Xonar making a vague comment about intent of the governments founders based on the lack of a Christian "Church of America."

I'm not even sure what you're targeting here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And they still don't mean it. If they're going to brainwash the pople, the victims have to THINK all of that. Just making them say it isn't enough, as clearly repetition doesn't work.

As such, America sucks at brainwahing people.

Yet the number of people who fail to see the problem within the entire process only goes to show that the brainwashing is indeed successfull. How many people in Nazi germany would claim to not have "meant it" when they hailed Hitler and yet did it anyway? Drastic comparison, I know, but I think it illustrates pretty well how far it can go from not "meaning" to say something to saying it anyway. When such a phenomenon becomes acceptable in a country I think it'd be fair to call it problematic.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Officially ignoring Gheb as he was the first to mention Hitler in a debate.

 

[Raziek]

There isn't a right answer, which is why that is Raziek. I merely stated in a formal manner, that everything is subjective.

But there IS a right answer, and that's that people should be coming to these values of their own accord, not through subtle (or less than subtle) suggestion before their minds have matured enough to make a rational, informed decision.

There isn't necessarily any problem with the end result, being pride in country or religion. But it should be founded from things that MERIT pride, not simply being told you should always be proud of your country. Things LIKE the pledge are one of many small tools designed to lead you to that conclusion regardless of if the evidence is there to support it.

@Gheb
Where does the issue evolve into having this though, why is this a bad thing? I seriously don't understand the problem. You take the words brainwashing and ingratiation as some sort of blight. We live everyday with common rules and principles, what makes it different from them? I don't need to theorize or present past history when the theme is very clear.

Brainwashing IS a blight.

I'm quite staggered that you seem to have no problem with the stagnation and suppression of rational thought.

The clearest example of this concept gone wrong is the German Nazi party. It's this sort of idea taken to the extreme.

Ask yourself these questions, and it should be pretty clear:

How many Americans are proud of their country?

How many, if asked, would you expect to extensively explain why? How many cite traditions in their answer?

I'm trying to avoid generalizations here, but there's a reason people talk about the "Bible Belt".

 

[Raziek]

Officially ignoring Gheb as he was the first to mention Hitler in a debate.

This is surely a mature and reasoned rebuttal.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Maybe a history class taught in the U.S. would inform you of how many religions, Protestant and otherwise, that the colonies that made up the original 13 states practiced? :v

See:

I sincerely doubt that the Jefferson, Madison, and possibly Washington quotes are not referencing a nationally recognized church similar to the English government from recent memory.

Now, how aren't the quotes relevant to the idea of a state religion? Hell, if those quotes talk about a nationally recognized church similar to the English government, they are even more relevant, because they'd want to AVOID a nation under God.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The German Nazi party is not even comparable. Past instances of American history is recitable but in the world we live in today, America does not go around killing thousands of people and annexing countries left and right.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Officially ignoring Gheb as he was the first to mention Hitler in a debate.

I don't know how much you've learned about Hitler in high school, but I can definitely see why Gheb draws similarities.

The German Nazi party is not even comparable. Past instances of American history is recitable but in the world we live in today, America does not go around killing thousands of people and annexing countries left and right.

Do your homework. Do you think they got all that support by doing those things?

 

[Evil Eye]

Yes I know the pledge. My school held the pledge for awhile. No I'm not a brainwashed zombie. Lots of us did the pledge allegience and aren't brainwashed zombies.

Yes I know cigarettes. My family smoked cigarettes for a while. No I'm not a bed-ridden terminal lung cancer hospice patient. Lots of us smoked cigarettes and aren't bed-ridden teriminal lung cancer hospice patients.

 

[Raziek]

The German Nazi party is not even comparable. Past instances of American history is recitable but in the world we live in today, America does not go around killing thousands of people and annexing countries left and right.

What part of "taken to the extreme" did you miss?

Neither of us made any insinuation leading to the conclusion you've jumped to.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

You're taking a past instance and making it into an issue today. America might have been founded in immoral ways but we're implying that the rest of the world is absolutely perfect too.

 

[Evil Eye]

Plus "brainwashed zombie" is such a total extreme that I wasn't even invoking. Although the German citizens that were convinced the Jews were the cause of their hellish existence would be a good example of brainwashed zombies, since we're apparently going there.

But brainwashing is a spectrum, not a binary matter. Forcing a binary parameter system on an issue is such a cheap way to dismiss a critical objection.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yet the number of people who fail to see the problem within the entire process only goes to show that the brainwashing is indeed successfull. How many people in Nazi germany would claim to not have "meant it" when they hailed Hitler and yet did it anyway? Drastic comparison, I know, but I think it illustrates pretty well how far it can go from not "meaning" to say something to saying it anyway. When such a phenomenon becomes acceptable in a country I think it'd be fair to call it problematic.

Question 1:

Would you consider U.S. students (lets face it, all of us are talking about them as the problem or we'd be talking about how Congress opens with prayer) forced to recite the pledge?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Who even introduced the concept of "brainwashed zombies". I said "mind control at worst". Turning people into "brainwashed zombies" is a gross exaggeration of the point :v

Honestly SD's mindset is part of the issue. "It's just something we've done so it's fine". Really? "The words are taught before we know what they mean but we never think of it so it's fine". I mean, do you even get the point here?

First I'm pretty sure that it was Gheb who said brainwashing. Plus mind control and brain washing seem to be pretty similar concepts to me.

I understand the problem completely. You think that being taught the pledge at a young age before we can understand it stunts our critical thinking skills, and thus is "subtle mindcontrol." My argument is that it seems to be a trivial matter to be concerned with. Yes I think the concept has problems, I agree with you that it's dumb, and maybe even bad, to be teaching children things that they can't even understand the real meaning behind. However, I doubt that anyone implemented the idea with the intentions of "mind control," and I just think the issue trivial. I really don't see an American population that has bad critical thinking skills. Many of us our quite aware of local and foreign problems.

 

[Raziek]

Plus "brainwashed zombie" is such a total extreme that I wasn't even invoking. Although the German citizens that were convinced the Jews were the cause of their hellish existence would be a good example of brainwashed zombies, since we're apparently going there.

But brainwashing is a spectrum, not a binary matter. Forcing a binary parameter system on an issue is such a cheap way to dismiss a critical objection.

All of the this.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

The ****? I was responding about Xonar making a vague comment about intent of the governments founders based on the lack of a Christian "Church of America."

I'm not even sure what you're targeting here.

I thought that you were defending the use of the words "under God" in the pledge with that Obama quote though?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

And no, I'm not pointing the finger. This is the world we live in. Do I need to mention the times of british imperialism? Does Joesph Stalin ring a bell to you? Do you remember the roman times, where people would live in a society that would send people to death, merely for sport?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I understand the problem completely. You think that being taught the pledge at a young age before we can understand it stunts our critical thinking skills, and thus is "subtle mindcontrol." My argument is that it seems to be a trivial matter to be concerned with. Yes I think the concept has problems, I agree with you that it's dumb, and maybe even bad, to be teaching children things that they can't even understand the real meaning behind. However, I doubt that anyone implemented the idea with the intentions of "mind control," and I just think the issue trivial. I really don't see an American population that has bad critical thinking skills. Many of us our quite aware of local and foreign problems.

Oh I am not concerned with it. I inquired initially out of interest in both the prevalence of the pledge and how the American population looks at it (small sample, though).

However, I do think that more so in America than The Netherlands people have bad critical thinking skills.

 

[Raziek]

And no, I'm not pointing the finger. This is the world we live in. Do I need to mention the times of british imperialism? Does Joesph Stalin ring a bell to you? Do you remember the roman times, where people would live in a society that would send people to death, merely for sport?

And.... we're the ones who are taking things to the extremes?

What kind of defense is "This is the world we live in."

I don't even.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

And no, I'm not pointing the finger. This is the world we live in. Do I need to mention the times of british imperialism? Does Joesph Stalin ring a bell to you? Do you remember the roman times, where people would live in a society that would send people to death, merely for sport?

[16:37:09] Mynheer Ramses: Soup has a 90% dodge chance

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It still serves to brainwash people even if they don't mean it when they say it.

@EE, Xonar, Raz - Radical terms catch on when they're used in conversation. It's Gheb who sparked it.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

DGamers Do Debate

Today's Topic:
America - Land of the Free?

Free until they need you to not be

/notaconspiracytheorist

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

A simple subject about whether the pledge of allegiance is right or wrong turned into an ethical battle referencing Hitler. That's where I decided to take it to the extremes.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The German Nazi party is not even comparable. Past instances of American history is recitable but in the world we live in today, America does not go around killing thousands of people and annexing countries left and right.

1.) Hiroshima / Nagasaki
2.) Arming Indonesian Army to commit genocide in East Timor
3.) Constant support of Isreal to commit genocide in Palestine / Gaza
4.) 10.000+ people murdered in Iraq and Afghanistan
5.) Drone attacks against Yemen in the recent past
6.) Installment of dictatorships in other countries [-> Pinocet in Chile]
7.) Arming Jihadists in the syrian civil war

All of those are relvenant today although you may claim that 1.) and 2.) have aged out a bit.

Question 1:

Would you consider U.S. students (lets face it, all of us are talking about them as the problem or we'd be talking about how Congress opens with prayer) forced to recite the pledge?

I hope not.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

First I'm pretty sure that it was Gheb who said brainwashing. Plus mind control and brain washing seem to be pretty similar concepts to me.

Beat me to it.

It's an odd conversation when talking about whether something is a spooky term like mind control or brainwashing (Indoctrination is a much more approachable term that would probably serve the discussion better). Anyone with firsthand experience who mentions something to the contrary is assumed to be a victim. It's funny.

 

[Orboknown]

See:


Now, how aren't the quotes relevant to the idea of a state religion? Hell, if those quotes talk about a nationally recognized church similar to the English government, they are even more relevant, because they'd want to AVOID a nation under God.

nation under god=/= state religion.

The German Nazi party is not even comparable. Past instances of American history is recitable but in the world we live in today, America does not go around killing thousands of people and annexing countries left and right.

No, america just goes around getting corporate interest or military power in the area. Hawaii? Americans bought out the sugar industry, the american industrialists overthrew the local government and asked for annexation.
California and such? taken from mexico by [maybe untruely] claiming that a military force camped in the area near the border was attacked by mexican forces.

[16:37:09] Mynheer Ramses: Soup has a 90% dodge chance

Lol'd.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, I used the term brainwashed. The fact that you can not see the problem is evidence to me that the term is appropriate here.