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[Raziek]

[dice]1d6[/dice]



Whatever it is, it isn't that.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i dont think we have one. i vaguely remember a discussion about implementing it awhile back but it didnt go through

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

:hamtaro::glasses:

why have I never seen this hamtaro smiley

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wtf is a pledge and what's its purpose.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It's a commitment, kind of like a promise.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands.

One nation, under God, indivisible.

With liberty and justice for all.



Children are asked to repeat these few sentences almost daily for years on. If you ask me, it's creepy as ****. I'm not even exaggerating here, it's really a creepy concept to me.

As someone who went to a Christian school, I was taught religious songs before I knew those words. My first English sentence is probably "Read the bible, pray every day". By the time I learned what it meant I stopped participating.
Meh. It's mind control at worst.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It's just a common principle because of our fore fathers.

 

[Evil Eye]

tldr brainwashing

 

[Handorin]

People agree with Xonar though. They've been trying to take it out of schools and what not for ages.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So you basically promise loyalty to a government that robs, brainwashes, indoctrinates, manipulates and criminalizes its citizens in order to sustain its power - a power it uses to install dictatorships all over the world, support genocides in palestine, Japan and east timor, violate several UN resolutions, arm jihadists in syria, murder 10.000s of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Who wouldn't pledge loyalty to *that*?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Ninjas. All of them.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

tldr brainwashing

I don't understand how one small oath is considered brainwashing. Half of the people that still say the pledge of allegiance, or stand for the national anthem, just do it out of respect.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It gets introduced before you're even aware of what that stuff means.

 

[Handorin]

I don't understand how one small oath is considered brainwashing. Half of the people that still say the pledge of allegiance, or stand for the national anthem, just do it out of respect.

Indeed. If they really don't like the country, try can leave.

Or try and reform stuff and straighten out the crooks. We have the right to so that too

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

So you basically promise loyalty to a government that robs, brainwashes, indoctrinates, manipulates and criminalizes its citizens in order to sustain its power - a power it uses to install dictatorships all over the world, support genocides in palestine, Japan and east timor, violate several UN resolutions, arm jihadists in syria, murder 10.000s of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Who wouldn't pledge loyalty to *that*?

I finally found him.

Also, very little people I know actually mean it when they're saying the pledge of allegiance.

 

[Evil Eye]

It's brainwashing because it instills and encourages blind, unquestioning faith and nationalism in children at a young age.

That's not what it represented initially because pledging allegiance to the flag of the American republic in the era of the founding fathers was about the bold embarkation of the U.S.A. into sovereignty and had not only a symbolic meaning but a practical one as well, since pledging your allegiance to the banner was a stand against the British dominion and governance.

It serves no purpose now but, at best, a dated and now irrelevant tradition and, at worst, exactly what I said because that's what it is in a modern context


edit: like I mean, if an educated type that has been afforded and/or otherwise obtained the ability to think freely chooses to pledge their allegiance out of respect for the founding of the nation then that's coo' but it's also not what I'm talkin' 'bout, obviously, considering kids don't understand these lofty ideas

 

[Evil Eye]

Standing for the national anthem is totally different btw good gorf

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It still serves to brainwash people even if they don't mean it when they say it. I mean, you can't deny that it *does* work, can you? If half of the people *you* know are unaffected by it ... doesn't that mean that the other half *is* affected by it? That's quite a heavy damage if you ask me.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Another thing is that it's also like "yeee nation under god" which is consistently causing a lot of misinformation :v

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It's brainwashing because it instills and encourages blind, unquestioning faith and nationalism in children at a young age.

That's not what it represented initially because pledging allegiance to the flag of the American republic in the era of the founding fathers was about the bold embarkation of the U.S.A. into sovereignty and had not only a symbolic meaning but a practical one as well, since pledging your allegiance to the banner was a stand against the British dominion and governance.

It serves no purpose now but, at best, a dated and now irrelevant tradition and, at worst, exactly what I said because that's what it is in a modern context

I wouldn't think that's a bad thing at all. I think the youth should have some respect for their country but I don't believe that they should be totally blind. I can certainly tell you however, that the pledge of allegiance nearly doesn't have the same meaning as it did before, as you stated. I don't recall feeling a sudden pride for my country as I stood up every morning for it. I just went 'oh boy, I gotta say this again. When do I go outside and play on the monkey bars?' I don't think it's really necessary and I'm not sure if it's as forced as before.

I think the practice behind it and the meaning is cryptic but the action of doing it is not harmful, despite everything you've presented.

 

[Evil Eye]

It's brainwashing because it instills and encourages blind, unquestioning faith and nationalism in children at a young age.

I wouldn't think that's a bad thing at all.

gonna work on my papers now

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Btw Horse, I did that song ^_^

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Another thing is that it's also like "yeee nation under god" which is consistently causing a lot of misinformation :v

That dates back to the cold war, with those atheist commies. That part should be taken out.

Gheb, by "very little," I mean "Counting the exception that I haven't met yet. Otherwise no one."

But w/e that might just be where I live. Ask gova and you might get a different response.

Also godspeed is amazing.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yes, I know the origin of that amendment. I just think it's unnecessarily worsening an already idiotic phenomenon.

but yeah, like EE I have to dip. Homework and such.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Yes I know the pledge. My school held the pledge for awhile. No I'm not a brainwashed zombie. Lots of us did the pledge allegience and aren't brainwashed zombies.

The pledge has been in practice for over 100 years. It's just something we've done. We're taught the words before we know what they mean, sure, but at the same time we didn't really think about because we were children at the time of being taught the pledge.

The last time I did the pledge was when I was observing a middle school class for on of my college education classes. It was actually kinda awkward being an outsider (of the school) and then suddenly having everyone stand up to do the pledge. I kinda felt like an elephant in the room deerping, just thinking to myself "Um, should I be doing this to?"

The one thing that bugs me about the pledge is how it was edited in 1954 to include "Under God," which undermines the first amendment. However even this wasn't really a method to "brainwash" people as it so much was a method to try to one up the commies.

Anyways, I feel the this is a pretty trivial issue in the grand scheme of things. Like honestly, isn't there other things in the world to be worried about?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So you basically promise loyalty to a government that robs, brainwashes, indoctrinates, manipulates and criminalizes its citizens in order to sustain its power - a power it uses to install dictatorships all over the world, support genocides in palestine, Japan and east timor, violate several UN resolutions, arm jihadists in syria, murder 10.000s of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Who wouldn't pledge loyalty to *that*?

Also one that protects its citizen's personal property and enforces contracts, can be seen fighting AIDs in Africa, has historically been seen taking steps for civil equality, and is far more tolerant than they are given credit for.

Do NOT start this.

 

[Orboknown]

kids are allowed to respectively sit down and be quiet during the pledge nowadays.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

gonna work on my papers now

I don't think there's much of a choice. What would irrational thoughts and conspiracy theories lead to? Probably nothing. It's a sad world but a world we live in, and I see it as two sides. The people who do blindly believe, and the people who don't believe. There is a grey area here, and I don't feel either is truly right. What is a world without order? America has a systematic process and common themes but without that, what's left? What is America without having a reason? Would you rather be free to do what you want, or to live controlled? This goes more into Ethics if anyone really wanted to debate about it. I blame my medication for getting me interested in this.

Spoiler

PS: I lean on the side of Control

Anyways, I feel the this is a pretty trivial issue in the grand scheme of things. Like honestly, isn't there other things in the world to be worried about?

There is always something to complain about.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yes I know the pledge. My school held the pledge for awhile. No I'm not a brainwashed zombie. Lots of us did the pledge allegience and aren't brainwashed zombies.

I'm neutral on the issue of whether it should be removed. (EE's comment about the pledge as a whole instilling a sense of nationalism being a bad thing I disagree with), but I agree with Sword on the fact that two words do not a brainwashed zombie make.

Quote from Obama:

"[A] sense of proportion should also guide those who police the boundaries between church and state. Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation - context matters. It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase 'under God.' I didn't."

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Serious Amereligion Talk all up in here.

I love this fyi

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Who even introduced the concept of "brainwashed zombies". I said "mind control at worst". Turning people into "brainwashed zombies" is a gross exaggeration of the point :v

Honestly SD's mindset is part of the issue. "It's just something we've done so it's fine". Really? "The words are taught before we know what they mean but we never think of it so it's fine". I mean, do you even get the point here?

 

[Raziek]

I think the thing you seem to be missing, Soup, and EE's original point with the flag post, was that it's BECAUSE of this subconscious ingraining that you don't perceive a problem with it.

From an outsider's perspective, it seems completely alien and wrong, but you even say yourself that you don't think its wrong. While the impact on you that you PERCEIVE is very little, an outside perspective makes it pretty clear that it's more than that, because you're already conditioned to accept such traditions, in the vein of both religion and pride for your country.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think the thing you seem to be missing, Soup, and EE's original point with the flag post, was that it's BECAUSE of this subconscious ingraining that you don't perceive a problem with it.

This x100. If you have to make a pledge to your country every day as a kid because somebody tells you to THERE IS A PROBLEM WHETHER YOU SEE IT OR NOT.

 

[Handorin]

The one thing that bugs me about the pledge is how it was edited in 1954 to include "Under God," which undermines the first amendment. However even this wasn't really a method to "brainwash" people as it so much was a method to try to one up the commies.

No, it doesn't. Ryker's quote is aight. But the founding fathers founded the principles of the country on God. The whole purpose of most people coming here is God. The amendment is there to protect people who choose to worship God, whomever it is or how ever many or what they call him. It doesn't mean we shove him out the door now because some people get hurt for hearing it or saying it. They don't have to say it. That's their right. But it's our right to say it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

A pledge you make without even fully knowing what it means, I might add.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No, it doesn't. Ryker's quote is aight. But the founding fathers founded the principles of the country on God. The whole purpose of most people coming here is God. The amendment is there to protect people who choose to worship God, whomever it is or how ever many or what they call him. It doesn't mean we shove him out the door now because some people get hurt for hearing it or saying it. They don't have to say it. That's their right. But it's our right to say it.

not calling you a zealot, just the most relevant image I could find

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

The two words were added in 1954, during the height of McCarthyism, for the record.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I think the thing you seem to be missing, Soup, and EE's original point with the flag post, was that it's BECAUSE of this subconscious ingraining that you don't perceive a problem with it.

From an outsider's perspective, it seems completely alien and wrong, but you even say yourself that you don't think its wrong. While the impact on you that you PERCEIVE is very little, an outside perspective makes it pretty clear that it's more than that, because you're already conditioned to accept such traditions, in the vein of both religion and pride for your country.

I understand that completely, but that goes into differences of people. Not everyone is going to share the same opinion, not everyone is going to agree on everything. If we lived in a world without subconscious thought and ideals, then we wouldn't be living. Our values and morals make us who we are. For me, I value my country and I understand that the pledge is simply a common principle. Gheb might not be able to see this because he doesn't live here, and that's perfectly fine. It is not really worth something debating as I am only one person who one meager opinion. My posts aren't to persuade, but to understand.

 

[Raziek]

Saved, that'll save me headaches in the future.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Yeah, so America sucks at brainwashing people. How is the pledge supposed to brainwash little kids when they have no idea what "pledge" and "allegiance" mean, and thereore probably don't mean what they're saying?

Also 1st amendment clearly says seperation of church and state.