Demo played (at DigiPen party)! Wavedashing (in Melee form) appears to be out!

[NES n00b]

Who cares about the ****ing wavedashing? Airdodging this way is the dumbest **** I ever heard. Seriously, and you get a jump after you dodge. I could have lived without wavedashing, but this **** is just ********.

And no the game is not more balanced by taking out wavedashing. What gave you that idea?

 

[Zauron]

I don't see how limiting the direction you can dodge in would help Sakurai accomplish better air combat.

Because now you can double-jump (and possibly Up+B) AFTER you air dodge. And you can Footstool Jump. And characters are floatier. Etc.

 

[Mccdbz5]

From what I've read in this thread so far, I'm going to have to say that I agree with what Infil is saying. I to, believe that air-dodging can not be controlled in a particular direction. Why? Well, I'm going to have to start off by saying I don't agree with the two pieces of evidence that have been previously posted. In the GameSpot demo, for instance, when Mario supposedly dodges up, and to the right, I think there is more to what most people are seeing. If you look closely at Mario, right before he begins his dodge, a circle is given off from Mario's feet. In Melee, when a particular character initiates a jump, it gives off the exact same thing, leading me to believe Mario took place in a jump before the dodge was done. If that is so, it would place Mario in the same direction as the dodge was going.

On to the next piece of evidence. Now, the Diddy Kong situation, where he supposedly dodges to the left, again, I think there is more than meets the eye. Take a look at what is behind Diddy Kong in that clip. The background is moving, as well as the platform that Diddy Kong landed on. Now, imagine if the background was still, and Diddy Kong didn't move with his dodge. He would've wound up in the same exact spot on the platform. In my eyes, it's an optical illusion. Most people see that Diddy Kong is moving to the left, simply because the background is moving in the opposite direction. These are just my speculations and ideas on these matters. Who knows? I might be completely wrong for all we know. This is just what I think. These are my opinions, so please, do not flame me for what I think about what I've stated.

Infil: I thank you for the informative information. I'm not completely sure if what you said is correct or not, but honestly, none of us really know if you're right or wrong. I trust what you've stated.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

But you can still do whatever you want after you dodge, and that will lead to lots of mindgames. So, if we lose wavedashing, we still have a new technique that we can use to make the fights more awesome and faster. Still hope Mistah Wavedash is in tho.

 

[Crispy4001]

Glad to hear wavedashing is out and Fox is nerfed, makes the game a lot more balanced.

Without the Wavedash in Melee, most of the lower & secondary tier characters would make out even worse. Of course that doesn't mean anything for Brawl, but it does have to do with your comment there.

 

[burrito]

You have to realize that I could just care less. I'm not going to try to win runner up in a popularity contest, I know I'm a complete as$. I'm done, if I haven't made my point yet then my point fails and there really wasn't anything to say I guess.

I think you make it pretty crystal clear that you don't care. I'm simply you the advice for your own good, whether you take it or not doesn't matter too much to me, actually, besides the fact that you ruin a perfectly good thread. Oh well, it happens.

I think we can see who is actually being the troll here. I urge people to just ignore Excorcist.

 

[Red Exodus]

That doesn't help anything, your opponent will know which way you can airdodge before you do it, that limits air combat.

And Luke, the game wouldn't be more balanced without WDing, Shiek would just become the best character by far while Marth, ICs, Samus and Luigi drop really far down the list and Mewtwo disappears completely from the list*

*This is using characters, moveset, their stats etc. No one knows what Brawls tier list will be like.

 

[Zauron]

On to the next piece of evidence. Now, the Diddy Kong situation, where he supposedly dodges to the left, again, I think there is more than meets the eye. Take a look at what is behind Diddy Kong in that clip. The background is moving, as well as the platform that Diddy Kong landed on. Now, imagine if the background was still, and Diddy Kong didn't move with his dodge. He would've wound up in the same exact spot on the platform. In my eyes, it's an optical illusion. Most people see that Diddy Kong is moving to the left, simply because the background is moving in the opposite direction. These are just my speculations and ideas on these matters. Who knows? I might be completely wrong for all we know. This is just what I think. These are my opinions, so please, do not flame me for what I think about what I've stated.

Plus its not even an air dodge anyway, it his Side+B. I guarantee it. After studying all the clips that show Diddy he does this multiple times and it is always movement in the same way - if it was a dodge you think he'd dodge more than that same direction (which is not very mid-air-dodge like since it kind of stops, then hops up and to the side). It also has the sparkle, white cloud, and yellow flashing which mid-air dodges do NOT do in any other instance we've seen. This is his Side+B - its like Captain Falcon's Up+B without the height boost, from what we've read from IGN. You can likely grab an enemy with it if they were right next to you when he starts the animation.

 

[BananaNut]

I've been watching pretty intently, though I haven't said much, 'cause honestly I just don't care about wavedashing in the least.

What I'd like to know is details on entrances we haven't seen, Final Smashes, and new moves or tweaks or favorite veterans have been getting. Also, music playing on the varying stages and Sonic's victory music. :D

Quoted for truth.

And thanks Infil, for giving us this info.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

You know what I realized? The TC talked about the things that people on these boards want to know about most, which is a good target for Trolling.

Fox's ****, and wavedashing.

From what I've read and the vids I've watched, I smell a troll.

 

[red stone]

why do you hate wavedashing so much that you have to make a topic trying to make people think it's out. what has wavedashing ever done to you to make you dislike it so....

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

LOL I forgot you couldn't choose the dodge's direction. *facePALM*

Yeah, I think it's kind of stupid now. I hope all these terrible news are DESTROYEHD after Thursday.

 

[Zankoku]

Wavedashing out? Not like it'd affect me much, playing Peach and Sheik...
Airdodges IN PLACE? So much for airdodging actually being useful for, you know, DODGING.
Fox's Shine taking longer? I use his Shine to sync video with audio in recordings.

 

[NES n00b]

That doesn't help anything, your opponent will know which way you can airdodge before you do it, that limits air combat.

And Luke, the game wouldn't be more balanced without WDing, Shiek would just become the best character by far while Marth, ICs, Samus and Luigi drop really far down the list and Mewtwo disappears completely from the list*

*This is using characters, moveset, their stats etc. No one knows what Brawls tier list will be like.

Marth wouldn't drop down much (actually not at all, pivots and dash dancing is more than his wavedash game). Fox would not have as much combos so Sheik matchup would be more even or in Sheik's favor and Peach would be a counter. Fox would drop down to high. Samus and mario/doc would be spacing ******** and but they could somewhat get around it. They will still drop a little but not that far. everything else is right. Mewtwo wouldn't even be a character and ICs and Luigi totally suck and have no intersting stuff about them what so ever.

Sheik would be God tier with only Falco giving her the only problem with maybe Fox at most being even with her.

 

[Stormkeeper]

First impressions are hard to read.

Remember those good ol' days when Melee first came out? I do. I was pretty off balance from the change in physics and it was frustrating trying to play my old characters because the play style was so different. There was a new emphasis on tilts and jabs and less on throws and dash attacks etc. Could Brawl have similar changes?

It's pretty likely since it appears (at least to me) from the videos that not just Fox, but most every character is quite a bit more floaty and the timing looks a little different. It's a new game with updated physics.

Anytime there is a change it can easily be interpreted as a nerf. I'm gussing that Infil's buddy wanted Fox to play just like he did in Melee, but when he tried to do that Fox wouldn't cooperate, so to him it felt like a nerf. This is a totally understandable first impression due to the upset in expectations, which certain amazing psychologists on the forums didn't catch. I remember playing fox in Melee and thinking how crappy he was because he fell so fast and was so hard to control, but with a little effort and some mental adjustments I was able to figure out his new strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't be surprised if Brawl pulled the same stunt.

I am pleased with the little tid bits of info, Infil, and would like to hear updates on you and your friends opinions.

 

[Zek]

Jesus guys, are you that desperate to defend wavedashing? Lay off the OP. I don't know if this guy is telling the truth or not, but I think he's absolutely right about airdodging. It's hard to tell what Diddy is doing in that clip, but it sure isn't a Melee-style airdodge. His movement is completely different, and you can see that he's following a trajectory while he "dodges." I think it's either his Side-B, or he just doublejumps back towards the stage and immediately airdodges(probably by mistake). There's also video proof in the early Mario vs. Link video of Mario doing an airdodge that follows his jump's trajectory rather than jolting him in a direction like in Melee. Wavedashing is impossible unless airdodging creates its own momentum, you all should know that better than anyone. And in all the videos I have not once seen an airdodge that changes the character's momentum at all.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Glad to hear wavedashing is out and Fox is nerfed, makes the game a lot more balanced.

Because obviously there's a correlation between a character's wavedash quality and how good that character is.

1st) Luigi
2nd) ICs
3rd) Mewtwo

The characters with the longest wavedashes are Luigi (low tier), ICs (mid tier), and Mewtwo (bottom tier).

Then we have characters with below average length wavedashes, like Fox, Falco, Peach, and Sheik, who are all in the top 5. There is no correlation between wavedash length and character quality.

Let's look at wavedash speed. We have among the fastest wavedashes (4-frame chars) Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, Samus, Kirby, and Pichu. So that's one God tier, one high tier, one mid tier, two low tiers, and one bottom tier. There is no correlation between wavedash speed and character quality.

The characters most helped by wavedashing are
Fox
Luigi
ICs
Mewtwo
Mario
Dr. Mario
Samus

So tell me, aside from the obvious nerfing of Fox that would result from no wavedashing in Melee, how does the elimination of wavedashing improve game balance? In fact there would be FEWER tournament-viable characters, as the top three would be Sheik, Peach, and Marth, whose harder matchups (Falco and Fox) would no longer be as viable. Sheik would completely dominate competitive play. None of the mid-tiers would be worth playing aside from Captain Falcon and Ganon, who still would not be able to get past SHEIK. Jigglypuff might be slightly more viable but would still lose to (you guessed it) SHEIK.

So please, I am dying to know--how does removing wavedashing balance the game? Or do you in fact have no concept of the word "balance" and just throw it around as if you do?

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

And I'm 100% sure that that isn't Diddy's >B. In one of the early IGN vids they show Diddy doing this jump thing like he was goin for someone's face let me look for the vid and I'll tell you when to look for this "move".

 

[Kazuya]

Yeah, wavelanding sounds like its in, which is still good - just sounds like wade dashing is out.

I used landing more than dashing so I'm not tooooo bothered bout it.

 

[Zauron]

And I'm 100% sure that that isn't Diddy's >B. In one of the early IGN vids they show Diddy doing this jump thing like he was goin for someone's face let me look for the vid and I'll tell you when to look for this "move".

And I'm 99% sure it IS his Side+B. I've seen it in multiple videos now. When he does it in mid-air, this is what it looks like. He can go directly into an air attack after the first few frames as well, we see in other videos him using it to propel himself forward then switching to an NAir attack using the momentum from it. He can go into an attack from it much faster than you can go into an attack from a mid-air dodge (unless you can cancel the mid-air dodge animation partway through with an attack in Brawl).

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Here: http://media.wii.ign.com/media/748/748545/vids_2.html

The video is the Castle Siege one. Watch Diddy closely, the first move he'll make is the one I'm saying.

 

[ShortFuse]

"A long-time Smash friend of mine, who now is a student at DigiPen, was able to attend a Nintendo party held for E For All, where they had demos of Brawl, Mario Galaxy, and others. At the DigiPen campus, they brought in these demos."
DigiPen? WTF? Where's the facebook chatter if that was true? DigiPen is not 5 people, there are at least 800 students. If the sequel to the best selling fighting game of all-time (i think it passed Tekken3 already) was going to be demoed to a select few at "tech school" 5 months before launch there would be a lot more internet traffic than a friend of somebody who barely posts on smashboards. It'd probably be on Joystiq, for crying out loud. I personally think wavedashing will be out, despite Nintendo kept Snaking in Mario Kart. You may be the telling the truth but you're not convincing anyone. (And those that are convinced would probably be convinced if a person with 5 posts said it was in the middle of the desert at Uncle Jim Game Store)

 

[Doggalina]

Even if wavedashing is out, lack of directional airdodge actually is a step backwards in general, if you ask me.

 

[Zauron]

Here: http://media.wii.ign.com/media/748/748545/vids_2.html

The video is the Castle Siege one. Watch Diddy closely, the first move he'll make is the one I'm saying.

Yeah, look closer. Frame by frame on the HD version of the video. He does the exact same thing we are talking about here. A flash in front of him before he moves. Blinks white then yellow. Does a backflip. The EXACT same move. After the backflip is halfway done he cancels into an NAir of FAir (not sure which one that kick is). This video is the proof that it IS his Side+B. And in this video he does it from the ground but still does that same backflip motion, so it can't possibly be an air dodge because he does the same thing on the ground as he does in the air.

 

[Infil]

First, to ShortFuse, he is a DigiPen student. I was wrong in my original post; this event did not take place on DigiPen's campus, but rather at the Nintendo HQ (which is right next door) in a room called "Cafe Mario". Many DigiPen students didn't even know about this, I imagine. My friend has contacts in Nintendo's HQ, though, so he heard about it and was invited in by a Nintendo employee.

Stormkeeper, you are right on track. The nerf, as I've tried to imply, is a nerf from the Fox we knew in Melee. It very well might end up not being a nerf at all, but rather just force new Fox players to adapt to a different playstyle. This follows exactly from the thought that Brawl, as a whole, should be very similar to Melee in terms of character design. Why would we want this? Aren't we buying Brawl because we want to play a new game, not a 6 year old game?

As for the Sonic win screen music, I will ask him about it. Unfortunately, I don't think he's played much Sonic, so he will likely not be able to place where it's from in the old Sonic games and instead just say "it's a guitar riff" or something. But yes, I will ask him.

Since you all are asking, here's some other stuff he said to me. He was also a big Link player in Melee. He feels the up B hits a fair bit weaker than its Melee counterpart, but the gale boomerang creates far more problems on return than the normal boomerang.

Ike's final smash is a point blank (Street Fighter term meaning immediate strike, directly next to an opponent) attack which sends the guy "way up (I mean, WAY UP there)" and Ike follows him and does a nice combo before smashing him away.

Ike plays "nothing like Marth or Roy", even though his forward smash is an arc-like attack similar to Marth (he doesn't know the hit properties of it yet).

Sonic "is enjoyable", but he wants to play more with a classic controller. All 3 of his B moves (not up B) are spin attacks. Forward B homes in on the nearest player. The other two were covered on the Smash Dojo.

Metaknight's final smash is also PB, and mimics a Hibiki super from CvS2 (the screen goes dark, Metaknight does a bunch of samurai-like sword slashes, and then he smashes him away).

You have to be grounded to use the Final Smash item (at least, of all the characters in the demo). He said he saw many players get the final smash in the air, but weren't allowed to land to use it.

The 8-bit spring from old Mario games is an item.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Oh well, lol.

I guess we're both right then. Do you have a link to the video handy? If not I'll go look for it myself.

 

[Pdiz]

I GO to DigiPen. You are full of ****, good sir.

 

[NES n00b]

Even if wavedashing is out, lack of directional airdodge actually is a step backwards in general, if you ask me.

QFT. Except I would have used more offensive words.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I saw it, but I think DD somehow cancel'd the move. Dunno how.

We know, NES.

 

[Zauron]

Oh well, lol.

I guess we're both right then. Do you have a link to the video handy? If not I'll go look for it myself.

Its on IGN, if you have insider access you can get the HD version. If you have a good media player like Media Player Classic (from the K-Lite Mega Codec Pack) you can watch it frame-by-frame and see what I'm talking about. Its definitely a Side+B, so the Diddy example can't prove or disprove anything about mid-air dodges. We really need more videos with air dodges to be 100% sure if they can be controlled or not.

 

[Red Exodus]

Even if wavedashing is out, lack of directional airdodge actually is a step backwards in general, if you ask me.

QFT. That's my point.

I can live without WDing seeing as I suck at doing it [I don't have a Gc/Wii yet so I have to learn while in combat] but airdodging in a direction is basic so I'm wondering why Sakurai would do that [assuming this is even true].

 

[Jammer]

Wow, the start of this thread was pretty crazy. Go read it if you haven't--I've never seen smashboarders be that mean to someone whose message actually has quite a bit of merit.

I don't want to name names, but I think everyone should know that it is a lot harder than you'd think to figure out a person just from what they write in a forum like this. Even if you are a psychology major. What happens is you see little details that support your preconceived notion, and latch on to those, blocking out dissenting information. You can't really control it, but you can control how mean you are.

Now, about the actual topic of this thread, I think having the air dodges be in the direction you're already moving is a genius way to get rid of wavedashing. Since Brawl was announced, I was about 90% sure wavedashing would be taken out, but I wasn't sure how that would happen. Nerfing air dodges is a neat, simple idea that also makes a lot of sense in the overall mechanics of the game. I like it.

 

[Psychoace]

I GO to DigiPen. You are full of ****, good sir.

I second that.

 

[red stone]

I GO to DigiPen. You are full of ****, good sir.

hooray!!!!

 

[ShortFuse]

use the tactics thread to talk about new tactics, let's keep this on topic. digipen students, flame away

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I still have faith. Sakurai and team aren't stupid like that. They couldn't have done such an idiotic change to airdodging.


Don't let me down, Sakurai-san.

 

[Hydde]

Ok Guys Forget The Diddy Video Check This!!.

Im a wavedash supporter, i love marth and his wavedashing game.... just wanted to point this before anything.

Ok, i have read the whole post, and i think the INfil guy could be right about what his friend is saying and of course this worry me alot.. but oh well..

Anyways... i was sure i saw a airdodge somewhere on the videos and i started to search until i found one.. ok chek this:

(sorry in advance if i look like a dumb with old news)

In the video of "Sonic comes to brawl" (yeha the one introducing him) , I want you to check the part when they are fighting in the snake stage (the one with the lights).

We can clearly see Sonic grabbing a Star.... but i want you to pay atention to Mario... he starts the scene down of the stage with kirby... but quickly goes up with some jumps. By the time Mario get to the top... Sonic is about to crash with the flying star... but check carefully HOW MARIO DODGES SONIC---

Like Infil said..... Mario dodges... but his dodge is not stationary... he fallls with the momentum.... the action is hard to see because of the explotion made by sonic and his Star.... but check it! i clearly see Mario free falling in his usual airdodge posture.

EDIT: after cheking it again... it seems like his normal airdodge because he last in the air more than what the momentum was supposed to last but im still not sure... some expert to clarify this please.

 

[red stone]

are there any mods around right now?

 

[SirroMinus1]

http://www.gamepro.com/nintendo/wii/games/previews/139928.shtml
Hah, fission mailed, Infil. Watch Fox. He dairs, dsmashes, dtilts, and then shines. And the shine is just as fast as ever.

Please take your trolling elsewhere, please.

do you have a youtube link because this video dont work from a nintendo wii

 

[NES n00b]

Now, about the actual topic of this thread, I think having the air dodges be in the direction you're already moving is a genius way to get rid of wavedashing. Since Brawl was announced, I was about 90% sure wavedashing would be taken out, but I wasn't sure how that would happen. Nerfing air dodges is a neat, simple idea that also makes a lot of sense in the overall mechanics of the game. I like it.

It is actually the dumbest way they could have done it. Why in the **** would it matter about nerfing wavedashing? Even if you did, you could have made it so that a character would not slide that far or make more lag than wavedashing when you land. This is stupid. What are you going to do with this airdodge now? Recover now that you can ****ing jump out of it. This game was looking pretty good until this **** started. Hopefully, none of this is true as it would be ******** to have such airdodges.