Demo played (at DigiPen party)! Wavedashing (in Melee form) appears to be out!

[Vortok]

When I'm off work tomorrow, I'll be posting all I've learned in Zauron's thread (including what I've posted here, for sake of completion). I might post in this one throughout the day, if I have time. Dunno where everyone else will post.

 

[Galt]

I'll tell you what I'd like to see, if Sakurai absolutely must change airdodging to be based on your momentum:

Suppose that, as with powershielding, if you airdodge within a certain number of frames after jumping/double-jumping, you get a Melee-style airdodge. This way, you could still wavedash, but you could also use the new airdodge system. You still wouldn't be able to waveland (without a double-jump), assuming landing while airdodging doesn't do that in Brawl (and even if it did, you wouldn't be able to waveland backward), but it would be far better than completely changing the system.

I'd still really like to be able to waveland, and wavehop from the edge, and things of that sort, but I might possibly be willing to forego these to try out a new system. Possibly.

 

[BentoBox]

There's a stickied thread for that very purpose.

 

[Rx-]

The reason you couldn't wavedash if the air dodge was momentum based is because there's no "push." Wavelanding, if possible, would be slight and mostly ineffective because of it's predictability. But none of this matters because we don't know the truth about the way wavedashing works yet, and patience is key here.

 

[h1roshi]

i honestly believe you cant say anythign negative towards the game until it comes out. people say its going to be messed up becasue of this or screwy physics because of that. STOP COMPARING IT TO MELEE SOOO MUCH!!! this is going to be its own game and until you look at it that way you wont keep finding all this negative stuff. once we relearn the new smash and it all becomes the norm im sure the negative speak will die away quickly...peace

-hiroshi

 

[vinternet]

I know i'm reaching back a bit but I just want to say it's a real shame that so many people feel the need to hate (or perhaps I'm wrong, maybe they were offended and defending themselves) on posters who clearly have good points. Zauron, Nekora, and Wyvern have all doing really good jobs making excellent points and dealing with a whole lot of what looks like flaming to me. If a group is going to call themselves a "community," they have to be willing to overlook minor errors and oversights in people's comments, and focus on what they actually meant. Because it's obvious that none of these people's original posts were made with any malicious intent, and yet they've received so much harsh feedback.

Sorry I know that sounded really preachy.

On-topic:

I think the alleged new air-dodge sounds pretty cool, it's fun now to direct dodges but this would create a new sense of 'helplessness' as youre flying through the air.

I think the "competitive scene" here is forgetting something important about itself. The competitive scene is something that evolved out of Melee. Melee was not created with it in mind and did not intend for many of its staples (WDing for instance) to be frequent tactics. But people on and off the SmashWorld forums loved the game and played the game to death, found out every secret the game had to offer, and through their constant play the 'meta-game' that everyone refers to was INVENTED.

Same thing can happen with Brawl if everyone gives it a chance. The physics system is different. The code is being re-worked from the ground up. This is a new game, which means a new meta-game. And if people like it, they'll start writing about all the depth and advanced techniques they want.

 

[Anomilus]

Maybe I'm not picturing all of the possible outcomes, but the way I see it, this Momentum Air Dodge sounds great for closing in space and attacking a person. Here's my scenario:

You're trying to get close to somebody. Now in Melee, you could wavedash towards them, hop over projectiles and stuff, and then from that poin there's shield-grabs, spot-dodges, all sorts of different techniques.

Now from what I've seen with this Momentum Air Dodge, you can throw out a dodge while still carrying out the motion of whatever you were doing. Also by the look of that Mario GIF, you can pretty much continue fighting right after you landed from an Aerial Dodge...where as you used to squat down a bit more.

So couldn't it be possible, as an approach to your opponent, to short hop, then time an Air Dodge just close enough so that your opponent throws out an attack and misses, then you land from the Air Dodge and deliver a counterattack of sorts (strike or grab)?

Secondly, we assume the opponent is expect a short-hopped air dodge, so they choose to wait until you land, then punish you....only you bust out your own attack instead of an air dodge. Now you got them second-guessing themselves. Mindgames.

That's how I'm picturing this Momentum Air Dodging working for the good of the game's depth. Since you can now bust out momentary aerial invincibility, AND you no longer enter a super-vunerable freefall, you can mess with your opponent and get them guessing when you're gonna dodge and when you're gonna attack. Get them to guess wrong, then either punish them immediately, or dodge through their attack, land, and punish them afterwards.

It's like somebody said - It's an aerial spotdodge. It sounds better than a normal spotdoge to me, because you can slightly control the length of time you're in the dodge animation by pressing the dodge button at various distances from the ground.

Edit: I realise what I'm talking about sounds like a Triangle Jump. Actually, it is. Only difference is, in Melee, your air dodge momentum was set, so you had to be at a certain distance to perform that Triangle Jump, and as I said, you ended up squatting. This new Triangle Jump on the other hand is looking to have less lagtime from the landing, so the jumper can attack quicker.

So if I'm right, you can have a pretty lengthy air dodge depending on your character's speed, short hop, and successfully dodge through attacks and counterattack.

 

[Hoboman725]

I think the whole momentum dodge is going to work beautifully. you should definitely be able to attack/jump again after the dodge... in my opinion

 

[Dan-E]

as far as i can tell all it is is slightly faster triangle jumping which noone used in the first place. tbh i don't know hwo much of a difference this is going to make but it still seems as if it would be as exploitable as it was in melee. the thing about momentum air dodges is you can't instantly change directions on teh ground when you are in full sprint towards the opponent which limits mind games a LOT.

i think i need someone to tell me some good thigns taht come out of this so i don't go cut myself

 

[Anomilus]

As I see it, it's not limiting mind games as much as it is mind games in a different form altogether. It's been said enough, but once again, Brawl is not supposed to be Melee 2.0. If we don't see an element returning that was in Melee, that doesn't mean the game as a whole is diminished. It has to be considered that what may be gone now may someday be replaced with brand new things.

It's gonna be a whole new metagame, and frankly it's exactly what I wanted. Personally, as much fun as Melee has been, I'm extremely happy to see Brawl taking a lot of its elements from N64 Smash Bros. I felt a great deal of the things that made Smash what it is went missing in Melee, replaced with a huge focus on combat techniques. Personally, I feel Brawl is going to be the better successor to N64 Smash than Melee ever was. It was an overall improvement, and yet it felt a lot less like Smash than an original. I'm glad Brawl's looking to remedy that.

Eh...I think I kind of went off track there. =/

 

[Dan-E]

yes mindgames are a differ form altogether now, but only because they've been limited. i'm definitely not against a whole different game, but if it's a whole different game that's just a stupified version of melee than i'd rather have melee 2.0 thank you.

aside from them MAYBE getting rid of the free falling animation (what happened after airdodges and third jumps), I have yet to see changes that'll make the game deeper. Rather we've only seen things that have the potential to make the game different and less than it was before. Not different and more.

 

[Proven]

yes mindgames are a differ form altogether now, but only because they've been limited. i'm definitely not against a whole different game, but if it's a whole different game that's just a stupified version of melee than i'd rather have melee 2.0 thank you.

aside from them MAYBE getting rid of the free falling animation (what happened after airdodges and third jumps), I have yet to see changes that'll make the game deeper. Rather we've only seen things that have the potential to make the game different and less than it was before. Not different and more.

When Melee was being released, can you tell me anything that was shown in videos to say the game was deeper? (If I knew, I would be listing them right now).

Other than the air-dodge, a new mechanic at the time (which you yourself admit can still end up being both new and useful in Brawl), I nothing comes to mind that showed Melee was much deeper other than the new physics (new for Brawl as well) and everything deep came from from finally playing the game.

So yeah, basically arguing is futile until we finally get to play and smash.

 

[NES n00b]

When Melee was being released, can you tell me anything that was shown in videos to say the game was deeper? (If I knew, I would be listing them right now).

Other than the air-dodge, a new mechanic at the time (which you yourself admit can still end up being both new and useful in Brawl), I nothing comes to mind that showed Melee was much deeper other than the new physics (new for Brawl as well) and everything deep came from from finally playing the game.

So yeah, basically arguing is futile until we finally get to play and smash.

Air dodge, side step, meteor cancelling, more throw directions, grab and hits, nothing being removed only added or replaced with an equilvalent (only can think of L cancelling replacing Z cancelling, everything else wasn't replaced only added I think), DI, fastfalling while doing an attack, jumping out of sheild, more specials. Everything I listed you don't need to play to figure it will add depth. Brawl, they got rid of things like DJC, wavedash, directional air dodge, and made alot of things auto so there is less options of what the thing was before it was auto (besides l cancel). That is speculation but this is what we got to go on. What have they added without replacing? Footstool and crawling. . . . . .

I am agreeing more with Dan-E but the final verdict is still out till I play the game myself.

 

[Proven]

Air dodge, side step, meteor cancelling, more throw directions, grab and hits, nothing being removed only added or replaced with an equilvalent (only can think of L cancelling replacing Z cancelling, everything else wasn't replaced only added I think), DI, fastfalling while doing an attack, jumping out of sheild, more specials. Everything I listed you don't need to play to figure it will add depth. Brawl, they got rid of things like DJC, wavedash, directional air dodge, and made alot of things auto so there is less options of what the thing was before it was auto (besides l cancel). What have they added without replacing? Footstool and crawling. . . . . .

I am agreeing more with Dan-E but the final verdict is still out till I play the game myself.

Ok, we didn't know about DI until playing, or fast falling, or jumping out of a shield. (Well, I wasn't here at the time so maybe you guys were doing frame by frame analysis then and there was a video that had it)

The rest of what you posted has stayed the same.

By making it auto aim for the ledge sweet spot, how does that change anything? You aim for the ledge, get some invincibility frames and either let go or get up, there's no loss of good options, only the loss of bad options, which is missing and either falling to your death or getting attacked to fall to your death. If you're worried about your opponent edgehogging, then more than likely you'll keep going up if not attack them and knock them off.

Can't remember the other auto thing, but what I'm getting at is your other options before hand were pretty much to die, maybe hitting your opponent at the same time.

We have new moves and specials (i.e. Mario's FLUDD), new mechanics (i.e. gliding, footstool jump, crawling (who knows what you can do from that)), new ways to perform old mechanics (i.e. footstool jump for meteor smash, the new air-dodge), new abilities (i.e. heavy characters being harder to stun, so they can still smash you while you're attacking them), and an unknown amount of new advanced techniques.

And all I see us really losing is the directional air-dodge, and by association wave dashing, along with double jump cancel (although this is news to me). So three things, just a few of everything that's in Brawl, considering that it's the sequel to what is already a great game, which, because it was a sequel to a game that wasn't horribly broken, but instead also awesome, was lucky enough in itself to not have much of anything removed.

I have class in 10 minutes so unfortunately I won't have the honor of responding before E for All starts. I apologize in advance.

If someone possibly can, list all of the differences from Smash 64 to Melee as nothing comes to mind right now.

And now I'm going to be late.