Default C-Stick vs Tilt C-Stick: The Debate

[Kimchi]

I haven't found a formal discussion board concerning the two possible beneficial C-Stick controller configuration that Ike players may use in their gameplay so I decided to create this thread. As most of you may know by now, Ike can change his default C-Stick which is configured as "Smash" to "Attack". I won't go into what kind of things that Ike can do with an Attack stick, because it's been 6 months since Ryko made a video on it. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7h8BMw_uxs&feature=channel_page. Anyway, I decided to post Pros/Cons of both Sticks.

Default C-Stick:
Pros:
-Reduces reliance on using control stick and A to use Ike's powerful Smashes
-Hyphen Smashes are easier
-Smash Directional Influence is much more effective than SDI with an Attack stick
-When stopping momentum with Ike's Dair on the C-Stick, Ike fastfalls thereby keeping Ike alive vertically for a long time.

Cons:
-When using the C-Stick for a Smash attack, A must be held to charge the smash
-Ike fastfalls when attempting a walkoff Spike.

Attack C-Stick
Pros:
-Similarly to the default stick, reduces reliance on using control stick and A to use Ike's tilts
-Ike does not fastfall when attempting a walkoff Spike, thereby making it more reliable as a spike option

Cons:
-Increases reliance on using control stick and A to use Ike's smashes
-Hyphen Smashes are harder
-Smash Directional Influence is less effective than SDI with the default stick, because the tapping of the C-Stick on an Attack stick does not input as a "Smash"
-Ike does not fastfall when he uses his Dair on an Attack-Stick for cancelling momentum vertically

So which one would be the more reliable controller configuration to use? As you can see, the Attack stick configuration has more cons than the Default stick, but walkoff Dairs are incredibly useful in Ike's gameplay. He can put pressure on vertically recovering characters. The Ftilt, as opposed to the Fsmash, could be used more frequently. But it would be much more of a struggle for Ike to recover vertically. Based on these Pros and Cons, which configuration would be more beneficial for Ike?

 

[Dragoomba]

From your analysis, there's really only one pro for the tilt-stick as they both share the other one. I would just stick with the C-stick for obvious reasons.

 

[_Sync_]

I choose to use the default C-stick setting because C set to smash proves to be more advantageous. SDI is reason enough to stay with the default, at least for me it is. But attack stick may seem appealing to players that rarely smash (which IMO should be almost all good players).

Attack Stick
-Increases the chance of nair deaths because diagnol imputs in the air -> Nair (can be good at times)
-Tapping the c-stick to the opposite way will lead to a forward jab rather than a ftilt in the desired direction
-Walk off dair's without fast falls are still possible with c set to smash (All that's needed is a gentle touch).
-Easier to pull off tilts (especially utilit)

Both options have their benefits and downsides. It all depends on the utility costs (how satisfied does the choice make you), or the oppertunity costs (what are you giving up if you go for a particular choice).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You forgot easier to approach/retreat with SHNairs using C-tilt. Hyphen Smash is easy enough to pull off without C-Smash, you can use Dair anytime without the fear of accidently FFing and get it out those couple frames sooner. Ike's DACUS is lol, DACIT doesn't need C-Smash.

The only time I'd switch back to C-Smash is if I thought I was really going to have to SDI a lot that match.

 

[san.]

I weighed my options, and I chose to make due with SDI with 1 stick (control stick), because I'm just addicted to using SHnair with cstick set to attack. It's just so good to have aerial control like that.

If you're knocked high in the air, non-DI attack stick down air is a good anti-aerial weapon against approaching enemies at certain angles, too. If you used regular Dair, you would've fastfalled, and the opponent would've just punished you during the long landing lag period. non fastfall Dair does very good against fast, close-range foes.

In some stages, walk off dair is very useful off of ledges, also, which is kind of appealing to me for a decent edgeguard. I like timing ground moves with the A button, so I never would have used smashes with the cstick anyways. Same with hyphen smashes.

 

[metroid1117]

Attack Stick
-Increases the chance of nair deaths because diagnol imputs in the air -> Nair (can be good at times)
-Tapping the c-stick to the opposite way will lead to a forward jab rather than a ftilt in the desired direction
-Walk off dair's without fast falls are still possible with c set to smash (All that's needed is a gentle touch).
-Easier to pull off tilts (especially utilit)

Both options have their benefits and downsides. It all depends on the utility costs (how satisfied does the choice make you), or the oppertunity costs (what are you giving up if you go for a particular choice).

The Attack stick does make you NAir suicide sometimes when you try to DAir, but it happens much less often than when you try to walk-off DAir with the default C-stick.

The downside of not being able to to use DAir as effectively for surviving vertical attacks with Attack stick can be solved by tapping down on both the control stick at the same time as the C-stick; it really doesn't make a difference. Likewise, you can gently tap down on the control stick to prevent yourself from fastfalling your DAirs, but if you're going for a walk-off DAir (and you want to make it back to the stage without grabbing the edge) it's very difficult to do so.

I use Attack stick because (1) as San said, you get increased control over your NAir spacing, and (2) walk-off DAirs, if successful, lead to spikes, and from below the stage (or even above the stage for that matter) it usually means a free kill.

I don't know if this has been proven to be true, however, but sometimes when I try to C-stick an attack I'll jump instead. I use Attack stick, but I vaguely recall Silven making a thread on having a similar problem months ago with the default C-stick; I'm not sure if this affects both sticks, but it seems like it affects me more on the Attack stick. Has anyone else had this problem?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The Attack stick does make you NAir suicide sometimes when you try to DAir, but it happens much less often than when you try to walk-off DAir with the default C-stick.

Thats only if you hit it to the SE or SW, instead of just South.

And yes, occasionally if you attempt to use Utilt with the Cstick, you will jump instead. I forget how it happens, but it's fairly rare for it to happen to Ike due to the speed of his Utilt.

 

[Ussi]

walk of dairs can be done with default c-stick. Press diagonal on the control stick while doing c-down

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I know they can be Ussi. But it's faster to slam down the C-stick then to partly press down the control stick/diagonally press the stick and press A.

At least, thats what I've found.

 

[_Sync_]

I don't know if this has been proven to be true, however, but sometimes when I try to C-stick an attack I'll jump instead. I use Attack stick, but I vaguely recall Silven making a thread on having a similar problem months ago with the default C-stick; I'm not sure if this affects both sticks, but it seems like it affects me more on the Attack stick. Has anyone else had this problem?

This usually happens if you flick/smash the c-stick twice in complete succession. From what I've heard, it issues an incomplete attack command resulting in a jump. I experienced this myself when I used to use the tilt stick.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

there is no real debate here. If you can SDI you can survive to rediculous percents and you can avoid follow ups which are considered combos in brawl and tht way live even longer,

You can also double stick tech (is that even in brawl)? Theres a ton of things you can do with DI that is worth much more than a walk off spike.

 

[Slaps]

I don't know if this has been proven to be true, however, but sometimes when I try to C-stick an attack I'll jump instead. I use Attack stick, but I vaguely recall Silven making a thread on having a similar problem months ago with the default C-stick; I'm not sure if this affects both sticks, but it seems like it affects me more on the Attack stick. Has anyone else had this problem?

Yeah just recently I changed to C-Stick attack and that happened and I did it by like holding up on the c-stick trying to do an up tilt and I jumped after it and i was like 'what the ****?!??!?!'
on the whole C-stick smash or attack issue I'm still debating with myself about whether I should set it to attack or smash because accidentally neutral airing when I try to forward air back on stage from the edge screws me over sometimes and sometimes accidentally neutral airing instead of forward airing helps me out on stage. But I agree walk off spikes own! lol
I'm pretty sure I will go with attack instead of smash just gotta practice it.

 

[Ta-kun the Pyro]

I just find it easier to have tilt-sticking. It's easy for me to do smashes without the C-stick, but I can't use tilts without it to save my life.

That's just me though, it's definitely about one's preference.

 

[Guilhe]

walk of dairs can be done with default c-stick. Press diagonal on the control stick while doing c-down

How do you do that?

there is no real debate here. If you can SDI you can survive to rediculous percents and you can avoid follow ups which are considered combos in brawl and tht way live even longer,

You can also double stick tech (is that even in brawl)? Theres a ton of things you can do with DI that is worth much more than a walk off spike.

Walk-off Uair should be a good replacement for walk-off Dair, unfortunately retreating Nairs should be lost in smash stick configuration.

 

[_Sync_]

Walk-off Uair should be a good replacement for walk-off Dair, unfortunately retreating Nairs should be lost in smash stick configuration.

Retreating Nairs are still usable if you use rising aerials. It's still something I'm tinkering around with to make up for the tilt-stick.

 

[Slaps]

Walk-off Uair should be a good replacement for walk-off Dair

How can you say that??? Knocking someone below stage to their death is WAY better than knocking someone up back onto the stage where they can await Ike's recovery... Uair is in no way a good replacement for Dair off stage.

 

[_Sync_]

How can you say that??? Knocking someone below stage to their death is WAY better than knocking someone up back onto the stage where they can await Ike's recovery... Uair is in no way a good replacement for Dair off stage.

True that walk off Uair can't truly replace walk off Dair, but it's good enough. Uair has a rather large hit-box so it's bound to hit and has a larger hitbox. By doing a walkoff Uair you don't run the risk of fast falling. Uair also is a killing machine at mid-high percentages. And even if it doesn't make the kill, chances are that the opponent may get stage spiked.

 

[Slaps]

True that walk off Uair can't truly replace walk off Dair, but it's good enough. Uair has a rather large hit-box so it's bound to hit and has a larger hitbox. By doing a walkoff Uair you don't run the risk of fast falling. Uair also is a killing machine at mid-high percentages. And even if it doesn't make the kill, chances are that the opponent may get stage spiked.

true but with c-stick to attack you will not fastfall at all unless you hold down while you hit down on the c-stick...but true Uair can cause stage spikes and kill at high enough %s I guess its really just a matter of opinion and what some people would consider pros and cons to it...


EDIT: true true true true true...lol so many trues

 

[Palpi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206979&highlight=Tilt+sticking

Pretty much covers most of pros and cons of both controller setups.

 

[metroid1117]

True that walk off Uair can't truly replace walk off Dair, but it's good enough. Uair has a rather large hit-box so it's bound to hit and has a larger hitbox. By doing a walkoff Uair you don't run the risk of fast falling. Uair also is a killing machine at mid-high percentages. And even if it doesn't make the kill, chances are that the opponent may get stage spiked.

UAir's hitbox is amazing, but at that height (below or level to the stage), it will not kill an average-weighted opponent until 105% or higher without DI, and with DI and proper momentum canceling that should be raised up to 115% or higher if you want to guarantee yourself the kill. Walk-off UAirs are good, but they are only good if they kill; otherwise, you're helping your opponent recover and you have missed a potential gimp with walk-off DAir (if they planned on going lower).

 

[Guilhe]

I’ve asked it in my previous post but it seems it has passed unseen: How do you do walk-off Dair with the smash stick configuration?

 

[Kimchi]

You walk off the stage holding the diagonal down and forward and hold it while pressing the c stick down.