hova
Smash Champion
there goes Anit Ban with those wonderful arbitrary statistics
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Dear Md/Va
- Thread starter SOVAman
- Start date
Current MK Poll Status
Yes: 1,446 53.58%
No: 1,253 46.42%
Arbitrary, indeed. I don't understand how you think Anti-ban "hides and lies behind statistics". They speak for themselves. Unlike your subjective opinions.
Yes: 1,446 53.58%
No: 1,253 46.42%
Arbitrary, indeed. I don't understand how you think Anti-ban "hides and lies behind statistics". They speak for themselves. Unlike your subjective opinions.
hova
Smash Champion
i really haven't offered up too many opinions lately, just asked for a clear reason as to why you all believe MK should remain in the game and you haven't really been able to provide anything besides 'he's not broken' and 'you try playing him'
also, we all know the poll is stupid, half of the people voting have probably never been to a tourney. i remember some dude who has only played wifi friendlies talking about his opinions on MK.
not everyone deserves a voice, which is why 10 year olds aren't allowed to vote for president. you know that poll is worthless for both sides guy
edit: you always said you liked debating, i'm not trying to change any minds here. i would just like someone on the anti ban side to put in the kind of thoughtful effort that the pro ban side has. and no, compiling a list of tournament results is not thoughtful effort
also, we all know the poll is stupid, half of the people voting have probably never been to a tourney. i remember some dude who has only played wifi friendlies talking about his opinions on MK.
not everyone deserves a voice, which is why 10 year olds aren't allowed to vote for president. you know that poll is worthless for both sides guy
edit: you always said you liked debating, i'm not trying to change any minds here. i would just like someone on the anti ban side to put in the kind of thoughtful effort that the pro ban side has. and no, compiling a list of tournament results is not thoughtful effort
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
i vote for not to ban mk.
We've already done that.
The Pro-ban side stepped outside their boundaries when creating the essay. It was only suppose to be limited to six arguments and three counterpoints according to the format guidelines. They decided to put 9 arguments and 3 counterpoints ignoring the Mods that set the rule in place. That's why it looks like the Pro-ban side did more work.
The SBR poll (room full of no 10-year olders) are having the same poll as well. Those who are against banning him are the majority back there, and the anti-ban essay has reverted a few pro-ban and neutral players to anti-ban. You don't see any valid points, but other people do.
So it's not a matter of when we're going to bring up valid points; you just don't believe they are valid points. My main reason for keeping him is the fact that he isn't broken which isn't a bad argument. He fits within the game being the best character and despite him being the best he doesn't dominate tournaments.
That alone is enough for me to believe MK shouldn't be banned. It's as simple as that.
hova
Smash Champion
so there really is no true argument to keep MK besides the fact that 'he's not broken' ??
if that's the case you can just say that's what it is
i was just hoping there was something more
if that's the case you can just say that's what it is
i was just hoping there was something more
That is a true argument to me. Maybe not for you but that's all it takes for me.
If I thought Metaknight was broken then that is all it would take for me to be pro-ban.
I just so happen to agree with every point that was made on the Anti-ban side as well.
Can you explain why all of the points the Anti-ban side are invalid?
hova
Smash Champion
i never said the points were invalid, just severely lacking when compared to the Pro Ban side
everyone has different criteria and standards for basing decisions. your decision on MK is an absolute, either he is broken or he is not. there is no grey area or medium level for you
i too believe he is not broken, but i'm not thinking in absolutes on the subject. so i was hoping there was another viewpoint or argument from the anti ban side aside from the 'he's not broken' extreme which i already agree with
i guess i'm just trying to look at a larger picture that the anti ban side isn't capable of painting
everyone has different criteria and standards for basing decisions. your decision on MK is an absolute, either he is broken or he is not. there is no grey area or medium level for you
i too believe he is not broken, but i'm not thinking in absolutes on the subject. so i was hoping there was another viewpoint or argument from the anti ban side aside from the 'he's not broken' extreme which i already agree with
i guess i'm just trying to look at a larger picture that the anti ban side isn't capable of painting
KORNNNNN~
Smash Master
GIMR beat candy and place top 5 at Brawl at the mall without IC's............ -.- lol
Pyronic_Star
Smash Champion
hmmmm, brawl at the mall... isn't that the one that candy won O.o
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
Levitibus
Smash Ace
I think Korn means that one tourny in Silver Springs Pegasis Chris hosted where GIMR beat Candy with Falco.
KORNNNNN~
Smash Master
yeah... whatever tourney that is lol he get 3rd or 4th
:o think, PS...
:o think, PS...
Pyronic_Star
Smash Champion
i wrote stuff, i deleted it... pointless for me o pull gimr into this even more... but korn think about the time frame of that event and why its irrelevant for this argument
dawgbowl
Smash Ace
You can always unban.
I would like to see the ban.
I would like to see the ban.
Kawaii Poyo
Smash Champion
Don't ban him 
Kenrawr
Smash Master
No.
@Thread-TL;DR
@Thread-TL;DR
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
Ban MK. I'm tired of losing to candy's MK. Every tourney I go to, I'm sent to loser's either by Candy's mk or meep 2nd round. Banning MK solves the first problem, but it's going to be much harder to ban cg. Is snake the only person who does good vs icies or do other ppl not get grabbed?
hova
Smash Champion
marth/peach both do well against ICs
i'd say it's even if not in their advantage
i'd say it's even if not in their advantage
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
^pfffft you havent been to a tourney in like a billion years.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Just some food for thought:
The degree to which MK sweeps the tournament results list is high, but it's not because of the character entirely...Nearly every region's best player mains MK (NJ, MD/VA when Omni played and was ranked first, Texas, New York, SoCal). That's the true food for the high results. I mean, PT is 9th on that list...why? Because Reflex dominates the south, not because PT is some amazing character.
</$0.02>
The degree to which MK sweeps the tournament results list is high, but it's not because of the character entirely...Nearly every region's best player mains MK (NJ, MD/VA when Omni played and was ranked first, Texas, New York, SoCal). That's the true food for the high results. I mean, PT is 9th on that list...why? Because Reflex dominates the south, not because PT is some amazing character.
</$0.02>
You're not talking about the very first Brawl at the Mall, are you? Because I remember Candy didn't lose a set at that event and went on to finish first. Just saying...
EDIT: Nevermind.
hova
Smash Champion
that's kind of a worthless argument. can you prove that those same people would be as dominate if they didn't main MK?
TheTantalus
Smash Hero
For the record, Steve never did win a tournament with DK or D3 exclusively, although he did place well, and neither has Dojo. Has DSF won a tournament with just snake?
And its been proven that M2K can't win without MK either, as the last time he had to play non-MK he got 4th and chillindude and azen beat the snot out of him.
And its been proven that M2K can't win without MK either, as the last time he had to play non-MK he got 4th and chillindude and azen beat the snot out of him.
Kenrawr
Smash Master
Yep.
iirc M2K lost to Chillin's Falco using D3. I think that's an excusable loss. Also read M2K jonesin one time about how for that particular tournament he hadn't been notified it was MK banned until it was too late and he had to use his out of shape D3. That's a pretty legitimate john if indeed true.
It doesn't prove that M2K can't win without MK. Especially because M2K has already done so in the past.
It just proves M2K probably can't win solely with D3.
And why are you even mentioning Dojo? That guy has been a MK main forever. Of course he hasn't won with anyone else.
TheTantalus
Smash Hero
I'm not really on either side, I just felt the ban side needed some help
To counter my own argument, i'll offer this:
What would you expect from MK mains? Thats who they practice the most. Thats their MAIN. so of course they'll place lower with someone they don't have as much practice with.
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
And to add to this I'm pretty sure M2K and the top 3 split, after M2K was in losers or something.
And Dojo, might not have won any tournaments without MK but he's placed high grabbing 2nd or 3rd with Diddy and Kirby, there is definitely reason to believe he would still be #1 in Texas if he put all his time into those characters instead of MK.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
yea but putting time into MK = 1000% payoff compared to putting time into anyone else, except maybe ICs. I think neo said something to that degree earlier in this thread. Obviously MK mains "wouldn't do as well" without their main, but even if they put time into someone else, they wouldn't be as dominant or as good as their MK is because MK is waaaaaaay better than every other character.
basically if "being good" at brawl has power levels, practicing solely another character for 1.5 years might put you at around 8000 but practicing 1.5 years with MK puts you over 9000!
basically if "being good" at brawl has power levels, practicing solely another character for 1.5 years might put you at around 8000 but practicing 1.5 years with MK puts you over 9000!
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
It wasn't an argument, I just thought it was worth mentioning.
Would they dominate as much without MK? Well, it's arguable, but probably not. The reason is obvious. Being that MK is the best character in the game, it's natural that using him instead of like, Toon Link or Pit, would produce more dominance in tournaments. The amount that they win may or may not change with a switch, it just depends how big the skill gap between that #1 player and the rest of his region is.
The 1000% payoff is obviously exaggerated, but this is normal. Learning a top tier character, or better yet, the BEST character, is obviously gonna be way more efficient and worthwhile than any other options...especially when the character is as easy as MK. The same argument can't really apply to Fox in Melee because he's got such a high learning curve, but if we're assuming top level play, then that's kinda irrelevant anyway.
I mean, MK really isn't that much better than the next-best characters (who I believe to be ICs, Snake and Diddy, personally). It's pretty close between them, and definitely isn't enough to separate them by the gap of an entire tier or anything. Lol at the power level comment...I'm pretty sure practicing any of the top 4 characters in the game will yield similar results. Look at Ally. The dude's only EVER dropped tournament sets to Mew2King (and one to MikeHAZE). Accomplishing that stuff with Snake instead of MK is entirely reasonable.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
DSF won like a bajillion with Snake in the first 6 months of Brawl.
lmao, M2K had 0 practice for that event and used his ancient retired Dedede and never practiced Snake
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
And yeah, what Inui said. Obviously the MK mains have no incentive to put as much time into their secondaries, because they're...well, worse characters.
VanillaWaffle
Smash Apprentice
greg puts it very nicely, an hours worth of practice with mk is equivelant to a years worth of practice with anyone else. if anyone really wants to prove that mk isnt op'd, take any mk main and lets see em win a decent tourney without using mk at all. im tired of the pointless statistics and point doggery thats going on. lets see some action.
Kenrawr
Smash Master
How would you know that, Waffle?
I bet if you'd pick up MK and MM me I'd beat it 10x harder than your ZSS.
I bet if you'd pick up MK and MM me I'd beat it 10x harder than your ZSS.
BetaZealot
Smash Journeyman
I don't think he should be banned because a lot of people have already put time and money into learning how to play the character, and fighting against the character. As much as I want him to be banned, the reasons I want him to be banned do not apply to our region. Dojo vs DEHF stuff.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
This is foolishness.
hova
Smash Champion
the fact that this issue continues to come up speaks for itself
Inui
Banned via Warnings
It speaks of the foolishness of the foolhardy fools fooled by their own foolish foolishness that Meta Knight should be banned.
Kenrawr
Smash Master
And the issue having the same outcome each time kinda speaks for itself too.
Edit: Dammit Inui x_x
Edit: Dammit Inui x_x
g-regulate
Smash Hero
Whether or not he should be banned is another argument, but I liked a lot of the points made in the pro-ban. Especially Praxis' list of individual things MK can do WAAYY better than anyone else, including
-Transcendent Priority - All of his sword moves basically beat any other move in the game, and never clank.
-UpB - From the ground, out of shield, beats ANY possible option, besides "shield" and "run away". It is invincible for the beginning part, AND it's a legit kill move at higher percentages. Not to mention you can fly after it, so it's not like it's punishable. Planking is also remarkable easy to do, whereas the strategies to beat it are really HARD to do and are extremely risky, often involving stage spikes. Projectiles can be avoided easily by MK, and by trying to "steal the ledge" at the precise moment to gimp him puts your character at extreme risk.
-Tornado - All you have to do is press B and aim it. SUPER easy, yet the tactics used to beat it (besides shielding and running away, which ALSO aren't guaranteed to work) require extremely good spacing and manipulation of hitboxes. This being said, only SOME characters have the luxury of being able to combat such a tactic.
Dsmash - a 5 frame KO move when fresh. 5 frames. that's a 1/12th of a second, and the hitbox extends around an area much larger than metaknight.
I never really liked the whole "ease of performing a move is subjective and opinion" point. I agree with it, but i still dont like it. the ways to beat metaknight are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT in comparison to the ways metaknight beats others. an MK can Tornado and Dsmash spam (super easy) through a tournament until they play someone good, in which case they can do the SAME THING to those good people, and the good people have to UTILIZE TONS OF SKILL just to be able to beat it. THEN, metaknight can actually TRY to do good metaknight stuff, in which case it should be no contest, but human error and tourney results prove otherwise.
-Transcendent Priority - All of his sword moves basically beat any other move in the game, and never clank.
-UpB - From the ground, out of shield, beats ANY possible option, besides "shield" and "run away". It is invincible for the beginning part, AND it's a legit kill move at higher percentages. Not to mention you can fly after it, so it's not like it's punishable. Planking is also remarkable easy to do, whereas the strategies to beat it are really HARD to do and are extremely risky, often involving stage spikes. Projectiles can be avoided easily by MK, and by trying to "steal the ledge" at the precise moment to gimp him puts your character at extreme risk.
-Tornado - All you have to do is press B and aim it. SUPER easy, yet the tactics used to beat it (besides shielding and running away, which ALSO aren't guaranteed to work) require extremely good spacing and manipulation of hitboxes. This being said, only SOME characters have the luxury of being able to combat such a tactic.
Dsmash - a 5 frame KO move when fresh. 5 frames. that's a 1/12th of a second, and the hitbox extends around an area much larger than metaknight.
I never really liked the whole "ease of performing a move is subjective and opinion" point. I agree with it, but i still dont like it. the ways to beat metaknight are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT in comparison to the ways metaknight beats others. an MK can Tornado and Dsmash spam (super easy) through a tournament until they play someone good, in which case they can do the SAME THING to those good people, and the good people have to UTILIZE TONS OF SKILL just to be able to beat it. THEN, metaknight can actually TRY to do good metaknight stuff, in which case it should be no contest, but human error and tourney results prove otherwise.
BetaZealot
Smash Journeyman
Oh man Inui's here with his .gifs
we're done for
we're done for