Dear Md/Va

[Isatis]

I'm pro-ban and have been for awhile :S

 

[hova]

i like how pro-ban people have a laundry list of details and can explain their view thoroughly, but most anti ban people just say "he can be beaten" and "he's not broken"

besides the actual placings and results of MK mains and the fact that he's not broken(which I agree with) can someone explain to me the benefit of keeping MK in the game vs banning him?

 

[xxCANDYxx]

i like how pro-ban people have a laundry list of details and can explain their view thoroughly, but most anti ban people just say "he can be beaten" and "he's not broken"

besides the actual placings and results of MK mains and the fact that he's not broken(which I agree with) can someone explain to me the benefit of keeping MK in the game vs banning him?

b/c thats how the game was made with mk in it...u cant just go around banning a character just so you think more ppl can play other characters...your trying to change the game...if thats the case go play brawl+ b/c thats what b+ purpose is....ppl that wanna play brawl wanna play brawl the way it was created...with everything being the the way it is except for a few exception of things that actually are broken (infinite mk cape, standing/walking ddd infinite etc)...yall just gotta accept that...if not go play a different game

 

[Pyronic_Star]

so candy.... are you one of those people that questions why we have items off? a time limit? likes free for alls or smashballs? maybe you would like to fight a DDD bridge of elden.... i men after all, that was ho the game was made. you clearly didn't read me posting something that fire emblem wrote...

quoted from fire emblem:

"Let me just ask something.

In a game not made for competitive play, nay a game where the developers themselves tried their hardest to make the game unfit for competitive play where stages and items and even STRATEGIES (planking/ledge camping) must be banned for the game to be competitive. Is it really such a stretch to think that you might need to ban a character too?"



-hova
i was thinking about that last night how aside from meep, anti ban people aren't really providing any actual support for there arguments

 

[SOVAman]

b/c thats how the game was made with mk in it...u cant just go around banning a character just so you think more ppl can play other characters...your trying to change the game...if thats the case go play brawl+ b/c thats what b+ purpose is....ppl that wanna play brawl wanna play brawl the way it was created...with everything being the the way it is except for a few exception of things that actually are broken (infinite mk cape, standing/walking ddd infinite etc)...yall just gotta accept that...if not go play a different game

LMFAO

that is the most hypocritical thing I have heard on the Anti-ban side of the argument

 

[Omni]

For those of you who want proof, read my essay on the first page of the public poll for starters. Then look at the tournament results for the season.

Of course top MK players won't place the same. We're ****ing MK players. Let's take away our Yoshi, lil b, and see how well you suck with a cut and paste Metaknight. If I used Snake from the beginning I'm sure I'll be dominating just as well as I have been. Don't think I haven't been through my trials. Remember, this is the guy that gets wrecked by Ninjalink and Atomsk. Anyone who isn't doing the same just isn't good enough or their character is too limited.

P~S: Don't make the mistake of comparing the banning of stages/items with the banning of a character. There has been a general ruleset for doing the lather since 64 however no one has ever made a ruleset to ban characters since it was never necessary. All the Anti-ban side has to prove is that Metaknight fits within the game without overstepping any game mechanic boundaries.

The burden of proof is in the Pro-ban side since they are attempting to make a change and remove a character from the cast. So far, each public poll has been split with Pro-ban reaching only a high of 57% majority vote. That has decreased after THREE more polls.

There are a lot of "stupid" things in this game. In this game, stupid means good. Snake's stupid everything, MK's stupid everything, IC's stupid infinite, Pikachu's stupid cg on everyone until kill range, Diddy's stupid shieldgrab from anywhere because of bananas, etc. Metaknight is just the king jester.

Those of you whining about balance need to accept that fighting games do have best characters. Since some of you have only played Melee, you're not use to it so the concept of one blows your mind. "You should be able to counterpick because that's what you did in Melee."

How many of you actually read both of the essays in the poll before voting?

 

[Pyronic_Star]

the last point i brought up was directed towards candy's point of view specifically

omni, i have a honest legitimate question for you... which setting do you think would provide a healthier and more expanding atmosphere... brawl with MK? or a brawl lacking him... because in the end this i believe is the more important reaction to consider when dealing with this topic.

p.s. and whats your opinion of a temporary band last 3 or so months?
and i have not read either argument fully, i have bits and pieces of both however i'm pretty firm with where i stand on the argument

 

[KORNNNNN~]

PS quit it.. D:

keep playing Olimar

*keep eating tomnook's flavor popcorn*

 

[meepxzero]

the last point i brought up was directed towards candy's point of view specifically

omni, i have a honest legitimate question for you... which setting do you think would provide a healthier and more expanding atmosphere... brawl with MK? or a brawl lacking him... because in the end this i believe is the more important reaction to consider when dealing with this topic.

p.s. and whats your opinion of a temporary band last 3 or so months?
and i have not read either argument fully, i have bits and pieces of both however i'm pretty firm with where i stand on the argument

lol umm if u want more people to flock to ice climbers and learn infinites and more camping snakes with grenades then sure thats a healthier game XD. I hope you know good players who play mk are gonna flock to either or use both. And when the time comes to ban ic infinites arise your gonna have more people defending it because they are gonna be PISSED they spent so much time learning infinites and argue that cuz of snake beating them they shouldnt be banned. Unlike MK ic have one true counter.

I would love to see a brawl where more marth, peach, and different characters exist, but your gonna have to ban mk, ic, and snake for that to ever happen.

 

[VanillaWaffle]

P~S: Don't make the mistake of comparing the banning of stages/items with the banning of a character. There has been a general ruleset for doing the lather since 64 however no one has ever made a ruleset to ban characters since it was never necessary. All the Anti-ban side has to prove is that Metaknight fits within the game without overstepping any game mechanic boundaries.

read the bold, that says it all. the argument my dear omni, is that it is necessary now.

also i would love to see some people playing different characters, and i think mk is the reason why 90% of the cast play snake mk and d3.

perhaps you may not agree with me, but maybe you can agree with this, lets at least have someone host a mk banned tourney once in a while and just see how that works out and what people think after experiencing it. take it one step at a time and see what happens.

 

[jjvirus]

lol umm if u want more people to flock to ice climbers and learn infinites and more camping snakes with grenades then sure thats a healthier game XD. I hope you know good players who play mk are gonna flock to either or use both. And when the time comes to ban ic infinites arise your gonna have more people defending it because they are gonna be PISSED they spent so much time learning infinites and argue that cuz of snake beating them they shouldnt be banned. Unlike MK ic have one true counter.

I would love to see a brawl where more marth, peach, and different characters exist, but your gonna have to ban mk, ic, and snake for that to ever happen.

Brawl is a gay, campy game to begin with. It's bound to happen, and already has happened even with Metaknight in the game. Just because we'll get more campy Snakes and Ice Climbers doesn't mean we should keep Metaknight. Snake and Ice Climbers have counters. Metaknight doesn't. When I see people say healthier community, I see it as a happier community. If over half of the community wants and agrees Mk should be gone, that's over half of the community happy. Not everyone on the Anti Ban side mains Metaknight, they won't be so upset seeing him gone. The ones who do main Metaknight will either quit because they lost their ticket to placing well, or find a new character. People are gonna find a way to ***** about something, whether it's infinites, camping, or whatever. But we're playing Brawl, and like I said we all know it's a gay game. This **** is gonna happen. I just see it happening less with Metaknight gone, because in the end everything else anyone could be found to be "gay" or "cheap" aside from infinites, there is a way around.

Just my look on it..=/

 

[Pyronic_Star]

read the bold, that says it all. the argument my dear omni, is that it is necessary now.

also i would love to see some people playing different characters, and i think mk is the reason why 90% of the cast play snake mk and d3.

perhaps you may not agree with me, but maybe you can agree with this, lets at least have someone host a mk banned tourney once in a while and just see how that works out and what people think after experiencing it. take it one step at a time and see what happens.

we have done this.. hat's tournies... everyone ****ing loved them XD

 

[TwentyTwo]

The learning curve involved to learn snake and IC's could possibly deter people off of learning them should MK be banned. While snake has few disadvantaged matchups, he has pretty close matchups among mid tier characters, so he doesn't shut everyone down in the mid-low tier, granted I think most matchups in the character boards with snake are skewed.

That aside, think if we were to soft ban MK, what happens in 3 months if we bring him back? We restart where we were, with people leaving their mains and problems of his popularity rising again, because soft banning him doesn't make him a worse character. While you could argue that other metagames will evolve with him gone, how can they evolve while a character who is missing comes back later, and shuts them down again.

MK is popular. This is obvious, his basics are easy, his more advanced gameplay is pretty easy, this combined with him being the best gives him this popularity. While we ban strategies, and stages, this is because they give some kind of unfair advantage, or change the game in a way that a character has advantages, that are ridiculous. MK is different, from the rest of the brawl cast, because he is able to be aggressive and offensive. Different =/= unfair advantage/broken. Think about this, there's a character in brawl for every time he attacked you, you lost a stock, but think that he has a two second startup before any hitbox comes out, and a 3 second lag after all his moves. This character is clearly terrible, but he's different no? This character would be clearly terrible, people dislike MK because he's different and the best, this is wrong.

 

[Omni]

P~S: both. i see nothing unhealthy with the current metagame. in video game's where there is a clear best character (like Sagat), half of the community will always whine and ***** and moan about the best character being overpowered. brawl will still continue to progress and grow.

i dont believe in temporary ban. it's like saying, "what is your opinion on playing a new game, hm?" if i wanted to do that, i'd play brawl+.

EE: it isn't necessary. that's nice that u want to see more diversity, but that's completely subjective. "a game where all of the characters can be #1..." ain't gonna' happen and aiming for a game like that isn't our goal. i can't agree with hosting an MK banned tournament because as i said before, it's just playing a new game entirely.

TwentyTwo: wow, very ignorant statements. mk is no where near easy in the advance play. if all of you who whined about MK being overpowered started using MK, you'd still place the same. guaranteed. MK doesn't give anyone special powers just beacuse he's easy to play. his popularity has forced the current metagame for only TOP LEVEL mk's to even break the intermediate to advance level.

md/va: if u think MK is broken, go and try to use him. i assure you that your *** will be handed just as gracefully as it was before.

 

[B0NK]

For those of you who want proof, read my essay on the first page of the public poll for starters. Then look at the tournament results for the season.

Of course top MK players won't place the same. We're ****ing MK players. Let's take away our Yoshi, lil b, and see how well you suck with a cut and paste Metaknight. If I used Snake from the beginning I'm sure I'll be dominating just as well as I have been. Don't think I haven't been through my trials. Remember, this is the guy that gets wrecked by Ninjalink and Atomsk. Anyone who isn't doing the same just isn't good enough or their character is too limited.

Yes, but if yoshi was in the same situation as metaknight, lets say he as very little start-up and end lag, an unpunishable recovery, and has an advatage or goes even in every match-up. I would want yoshi ban because he would be too good at limiting every other characters options. Sure yoshi mains would not place as well with him banned at first and there would be a bias to not have him banned, but they would learn to adapt because it would be generally accepted that the character yoshi is too powerful in the games environment.

P~S: Don't make the mistake of comparing the banning of stages/items with the banning of a character. There has been a general ruleset for doing the lather since 64 however no one has ever made a ruleset to ban characters since it was never necessary. All the Anti-ban side has to prove is that Metaknight fits within the game without overstepping any game mechanic boundaries.

Does a character need to be overstepping mechanical boundaries? The game mechanics can not change, what really needs to be proven is if Metaknight performs so well within these bounderies that it is an unfair advantage against every other character within the bounderies.

The burden of proof is in the Pro-ban side since they are attempting to make a change and remove a character from the cast. So far, each public poll has been split with Pro-ban reaching only a high of 57% majority vote. That has decreased after THREE more polls.

True the community is very split on this deciscion which is why it will be more difficult for the Pro-Ban side to prove there piont to the whole community, whether there is a majority of pro-ban or not.

There are a lot of "stupid" things in this game. In this game, stupid means good. Snake's stupid everything, MK's stupid everything, IC's stupid infinite, Pikachu's stupid cg on everyone until kill range, Diddy's stupid shieldgrab from anywhere because of bananas, etc. Metaknight is just the king jester.

Yes but "MK's stupid everything" as not been shown to have a weakness like the other characters stupid things. Snake as a bad aerial game, IC's require to get inside with nana, Pikachu must get inside without priorty, diddy sucks of stage. Metaknight doesn't have to worry about these things.


Those of you whining about balance need to accept that fighting games do have best characters. Since some of you have only played Melee, you're not use to it so the concept of one blows your mind. "You should be able to counterpick because that's what you did in Melee."

I'll direct to my post about other fighting games and banning. Particulary Akuma in HD Remix:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7987547&postcount=55


How many of you actually read both of the essays in the poll before voting?

I did

My comments in bold.

 

[TwentyTwo]

Omni, I think you misunderstood, or I wasn't very clear. When I say advanced gameplay I don't include mindgames and things like that, or the ability to make choices at the given time. What I intended to say is to know what moves do, like you can tornado off the top of the ceiling, you can dtilt frame trap, and you can effectively gimp with dair, you can combo with dthrow etc etc. I completely believe it is the skill of the player involved with MK as well as any other character, because you choose your options. I completely recognize that he's been studied to an incredible extent, and that he's tough to play with in competitive play.

 

[KORNNNNN~]

man.. what is this, smash college essay's board ?

:/

mk will not get banned D:

 

[SOVAman]

man.. What Is This, Smash College Essay's Board ?

:/

Mk Will Not Get Banned D:

looooooooool

 

[Omni]

BONK: sorry, but i wont respond to that wall of text. i don't have a lot of tolerance in regards to arguing MK semantics since i've been at it for almost 2 months in the SBR. hit me with a single point and i'll be gladly to respond.

22: oh, i see. i did misinterpret that statement and i apologize.

md/va: for those who are pro-ban, i dare you to switch to mk. md/va's top players will continue to put you in your place. you guys would be chu/meep/candy/boss fodder. p~s will probably lose to one of you randomly

 

[SOVAman]

lilb: sorry, but i wont respond to that wall of text. i don't have a lot of tolerance in regards to arguing MK semantics since i've been at it for almost 2 months in the SBR. hit me with a single point and i'll be gladly to respond.

22: oh, i see. i did misinterpret that statement and i apologize.

md/va: for those who are pro-ban, i dare you to switch to mk. md/va's top players will continue to put you in your place. you guys would be chu/meep/candy/boss fodder. p~s will probably lose to one of you randomly

wtf i didnt post anything

that was bonk LMAO

 

[Leafplayer452]

No I dont want him banned

 

[VanillaWaffle]

i have to give credit where its due, bonk and omni my god you guys have written enough here for a novel.

<gives a slight round of applause>

@ omni - you say if i think hes broken, than i should try and use him. thats like a mind game to try and pull people that are pro ban over to your side haha. i'm proud of the fact that i dont play mk and im also proud of the fact that my b button hasnt been worn down into a fine red nub. ok that was a cheap shot, but oh well deal with it.

 

[Omni]

im not trying to grab you and pull you over.

a lot of pro-ban people think mk is this magical being that nets unworthy players wins over people they shouldnt beat. this isnt the case. the truth is that if most of the people who complain about MK actually USE MK, they will continue to place the same or maybe even worse.

seriously. if you started using MK and magically climbed up to top 5 in md/va, i'd be shocked and would definitely start leaning towards pro-ban. but that wont happen.

 

[TwentyTwo]

22: oh, i see. i did misinterpret that statement and i apologize.

np, my good sir.

 

[Levitibus]

Omni I don't want MK banned, why you getting at me? D:

I do wish this region would stop crying and FYI I know a lot of people disliked the Meta banned tourny at Hats, hence why he hasn't hosted another since. Same with the twins, the results weren't accurate to account for talented players skills with their mains. Example; Forte isn't going to do as well with Peach as he does with Meta, he put time into mastering that character, he should be allowed to use him without worry.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

BONK: sorry, but i wont respond to that wall of text. i don't have a lot of tolerance in regards to arguing MK semantics since i've been at it for almost 2 months in the SBR. hit me with a single point and i'll be gladly to respond.

22: oh, i see. i did misinterpret that statement and i apologize.

md/va: for those who are pro-ban, i dare you to switch to mk. md/va's top players will continue to put you in your place. you guys would be chu/meep/candy/boss fodder. p~s will probably lose to one of you randomly

i love yo too fortunately i'm like you, decent in md/va only *smiley face*
maybe i'll try some mk tomorrow *ponders*

and i can't climb up 5 spots if i switch to mk, however we have seen evidence of ic's doing that :s but thats another topic

 

[Omni]

i love yo too fortunately i'm like you, decent in md/va only *smiley face*
maybe i'll try some mk tomorrow *ponders*

and i can't climb up 5 spots if i switch to mk, however we have seen evidence of ic's doing that :s but thats another topic

I'm more than just "decent" in MD/VA. Plus the only OOS'ers I have lost to is Ninjalink and Atomsk.

I was talking about players that don't place or who are ranked very low, PS. If you were to use MK, I have a feeling you'd either stay the same or drop a notch or two as well.

EE: My bad, EE. I was looking at VanillaWaffle's sig, lol.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

I'm more than just "decent" in MD/VA. Plus the only OOS'ers I have lost to is Ninjalink and Atomsk.

I was talking about players that don't place or who are ranked very low, PS. If you were to use MK, I have a feeling you'd either stay the same or drop a notch or two as well.

EE: My bad, EE. I was looking at VanillaWaffle's sig, lol.

you like never go outta state though... did you go outta state fr COT4?
and i'll use mk more, we'll see if your right kaiba boy

 

[meepxzero]

go ic lol if u think ull get gaurenteed top 5

 

[Pyronic_Star]

that comment actually wasn't directed towards you actually lolz

 

[hova]

omni you really didn't address the issue... how about you not use MK and still place has high as you do?... oh wait you tried that

you'll go down in skill from losing your main just as others will go down in skill switching over to MK. throwing out pointless challenges is just another way to avoid an issue(maybe you learned that from me). the issue isn't even really about the placings here

i read both arguments in the poll thread and the anti-ban was severely lacking. the only thing the anti ban side said was that 'MK isn't broken' 'we need to cater to top level players' and then proceeded to pull every favorable statistic they could find to support the cause. it's extremely easy to hide behind and lie with statistics

Meep i'm all for people flocking to IC/Snake, i actually believe those characters are a truer reflection of skill. people may hate on ICs and may sight you as an example because you started doing well after picking them up, but people seem to forget you played them all thru Melee. it's gonna take other people who never played ICs at all to get to the level you're at; all that Melee practice with ICs definitely paid off. the learning curve is gonna be much steeper for others who try to follow


anyway, i understand the burden of proof thing and i understand that supposedly MK is part of the 'game' (altho i'm still laughing at that claim because of all the stages/items we ban)

someone please; pretty pretty please just explain to me as to why Brawl is a better competitive game for having MK vs not having him. i don't want any poorly thought out analogies or biased references to other games. i don't want people getting super defensive and saying 'you go try MK and see how easy it is'

please just tell me that how within the workings of the community and our current ruleset is it that Brawl is much better off for having MK?



edit: also lmao@ Omni telling people to go read the entire opening post in the poll thread and then refusing to read Bonk's one tiny post

 

[B0NK]

BONK: sorry, but i wont respond to that wall of text. i don't have a lot of tolerance in regards to arguing MK semantics since i've been at it for almost 2 months in the SBR. hit me with a single point and i'll be gladly to respond.

I read your "wall of text"s...

Maybe show more respect to others' opinions. I didn't write any more then you and the post I link you to was from earlier in the thread that you might of overlook or missed.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

-hova
gimr used ic's and placed better then he normally does at the last two tournies he attended -.-

 

[hova]

GIMR has been using ICs since brawl came out so it's not like he just magically learned everything over night. he actually came up with several of the CGs if i remember correctly

i remember him using ICs vs G-reg back at a college park tourney in Spring of 08

also i'm pretty sure GIMR could have done close to the same even without ICs. there wasn't really a ton of talent at the last C3

1. ChuDat (Kirby/ICs/Metaknight)
2. Meep (ICs)
3. God-Is-My-Rock (ICs/Game & Watch)
4. Candy (Snake)
5. Sanoscy Xero (Metaknight)
5. Junebug (Donkey Kong/Lucario/Falco)
7. SRK (Diddy/Gdubs)
7. BMX (Wario)
9. Hova (Peach/Marth/DDD/Mario)
9. Seagull (Wolf/Metaknight)
9. Lil'B (Yoshi)
9. Bonk (ICs)
13. Brypie (ROB)
13. g-reg (Jiggs)

not exactly an all star cast there. the only notable win was over Chu

if GIMR had just touched ICs for the first time a few weeks before the tourney he definitely wouldn't have placed as high



edit: what's the other tourney he did 'better than usual'

 

[jjvirus]

I think he's reffering to the Gamehaven tourney, Hova.

1: MeEP ($186.00)
2: Forte ($93.00)
3: Boss ($31.00)
4: Korn
5: GIMR
5: Logic
7: Takeover
7: Lie
9: Mattix
9: Deez
9: BMX
9: Uchia Sasuke
(Just top 10)

Or Chu's 4th of July thing...
1. P~S
2. ChuDat
3. Deez
4. SheikSSBM
5. Lil B
5. GIMR
7. ******
7. Lie
9. EE
9. Vanillawaffle
9. DewDaDash
9. CK
13. Lil C
13. SSR
13. Freezewish

 

[JCaesar]

Neither of those placings are remotely impressive. Who's under him?

Exactly.

 

[TheTantalus]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/chu-s-biweekly

 

[Omni]

Hova: It would obviously be harder for me to switch off MK and use a character who has lower on the tier list and perform the same. Since people believe MK is broken, I am suggesting that switching off your Peach or someone's DK and choosing to work on MK should allow you to play better.

It's not pointless because since I'm maining the best character in the game I will always go "down" by switching characters, but other people who main lower tier characters have a much better chance of moving "up". As I said before, they won't move up using MK and that's because MK is legit character just like everyone else.

To answer your last question: There's no way to tell which game would be "better". A game with MK in it and a game without MK are just two separate games. What exactly makes a game "better" to you because what makes it better for you may not make it better for someone else.

And I told Bonk that I'll address points as long as they're given to me one point at a time. I'm not quoting each one of his points and addressing each one so he can quote even more of my points until it looks like an Inui debate.

 

[hova]

once again, the anti ban side has no solid points

 

[Omni]

1200+ people think otherwise.