DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[DewDaDash]

Welcome Back!

 

[CourageHound]

Hello Technical Chase. You dont know me, but i've always wanted to thank you for your numerous informational threads on DDD.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. Hopefully I can tie up some loose ends around here as well. But I'll be active for a bit again and hope to represent us properly. Looks like we're in need of a wake up call in these parts again.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

I'm not scared of raptor but it would be foolish to underestimate someone when 25 bucks is on the line so i'm taking it as seriously as I would if i were playing any top player

 

[DewDaDash]

Well from what he's told me hes beaten atomsk so gl with that. But I already told him that im making sure I win when we mm Shoutouts to raptor #namesearch

Do you know if there's a stream for the tourney this saturday? I plan on winning and want to revive these dead boards with a hype stream

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hello Tech_Chase!

I like your avatar~

 

[| Big D |]

I'm not scared of raptor but it would be foolish to underestimate someone when 25 bucks is on the line so i'm taking it as seriously as I would if i were playing any top player

I play this MU a lot so some things to look out for.

When he's planking with eggs on the ledge, ftilt will cancel with the eggs and sometimes even hit him. Use this so you you have a full shield when he inevitably has to double jump back onto the stage.

On stage he's going to throw out a lot of eggs, and they work because Dedede is tall enough where if an egg touches your shield, he has enough time to dash grab where if you drop your shield you get hit by the egg. Powershielding eggs will still take down your shield due to having 2 hits. Be wary of this as it can become harder to shield eggs and bair will easily shield poke you at this point. If you can get close enough without taking damage/shield damage from eggs, from this position is where you can shield an egg and grab yoshi or force him on the ledge where he will eventually have to use his double jump.

If you though airdodging into Pikachu was bad, airdodging into Yoshi is how Yoshi get's all his punishes. You do not want to be above him in this MU as you Yoshi can cover landings very easily. You definitely want to be grounded in this MU and force Yoshi into the air/on the ledge.

IDK if any of this will help, but I don't want more Yoshis beating DDDs.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Hello Tech_Chase!

I like your avatar~

Thanks Aero, nice to see you again :D

 

[CourageHound]

I would give input on the Yoshi : DDD MU but i'm terrible at both ironicly. Barely anyone uses Yoshi or DDD so i have next to zero experience vs my own characters. I could tell you what to look out for vs Yoshi I guess if you want.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Doesn't yoshi's cg grab do essentially no damage if you know how to mash? especially compared to ddd's chain grab? I would worry a lot more about egg spam as they are very different from other projectiles for shielding them.

Edit: also it is super good to see both tech chase and aerodrome both back I'm here. WE have really been missing you guys. It's been so dead in here even bubbaking ran off...

 

[AtotheZ]

Yoshi's chaingrab against DDD isn't really a damage issue, it's more of a positioning issue as it can get you offstage.

Also if I recall, he has some guaranteed hits on you from the grab release

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i appreciate all advise so far thanks a bunch

 

[CourageHound]

Guaranteed hits from grab release? Hmmm....not that I know of but if so its either up smash, dash attack, or egg lay. The former doesnt kill to the really high percent because of DDD's weight. You pretty much wont have to worry about dash attack killing. Egg lay is for free damage and ressetting the situation or positional advantage.

What you want to avoid is hiding in sheild to much. Cause as we all know Yoshi has a command grab and a good Yoshi will abuse it if you like to hide in shield. Now, if you get egg layd, I would suggest to mash out(to avoid the free damage) but dont mash at exactly the same rate each time. This to avoid letting the Yoshi know when you will exit the egg and how to react accordingly each time.

As said before, Yoshi's egg has two seperate hit boxes. The egg and the explosion. I've seen many people disregard eggs as an effective projectile and are just content at standing and powershielding all day. It does deplete your shield and it does have some shield stun. If you shield and egg mid range(epecially if its not power shielded) the Yoshi may have enough time to dash grab you out of your shield. Not only that but eggs are great for frame traps and harassing. If you are above yoshi and are at kill percentage, do whatever you can to avoid eggs without air dodging. You will be caught out of the airdodge. Remember to never try and outcamp Yoshi.

The last thing I can think of atm is being careful about landing. As mentioned eariler Yoshi can get a lot damage and advantage when you are above him. He will either be throwing eggs or waiting for a landing option so he can react and punish. Be weary of the Pivot grab. It shouldnt really be feared in the midst of grand combat because DDD has f tilt. However it has excellent range, with very little startup or ending lag, enebelling it to catch many landings.

miscellaneous info: Yoshi does have some nice strings and they are alll the more effective on big charscters like DDD. Just know when to shield grab if yoshi gets to crazy when approaching(which he shouldnt most the time)

Yoshi's down B, the Yoshi Bomb has the possibility to sheild poke or brake if your shield is low due to its 5 hitboxes. Be weary of that with close range. It also has respectable kill power.

Tryoing to chase an air born Yoshi(trying to land) will possibly get you egg laid(granted you are also onstage). I would recommend being patient and catching landing at mid range with f tilt or long range with waddles.
Uhhh, oh and yoshi can semi stall landing mid air by throwing an egg to throw your timing off.

Hope i was helpful.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yoshi's chaingrab against DDD isn't really a damage issue, it's more of a positioning issue as it can get you offstage.

Also if I recall, he has some guaranteed hits on you from the grab release

So you're still around I see. Sup baby?

 

[AtotheZ]

So you're still around I see. Sup baby?

Not much babycakes, I haven't really touched Brawl seriously in over a year though. I saw that you were hosting that Phoenix Saga though,

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I hadn't played in seriously in like 8 months so we're in a similar boat. But yeah ever since I left the scene, more and more people kept asking me to host PS6 so...here we go again.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Hound that was actually extremely helpful. Hopefully you can come to Flippers sometime tomorrow night so we can get some matches in the matchup!

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

So I went and checked the yoshi threads and it actually looks like he has nothing guaranteed out of grab release so you can fear that even less. But definitely agree to take the eggs seriously. The double hit box makes a huge difference.

 

[CourageHound]

Hound that was actually extremely helpful. Hopefully you can come to Flippers sometime tomorrow night so we can get some matches in the matchup!

Actually I cant unfortunately due to me leaving to Boston in the morning sorry .

Possibly next week. Glad I was helpful tho.

 

[AtotheZ]

I might have to make it out to PS6 since I've enjoyed your other events, cuz why not

I'll probably screw about at Youmacon this year though again, but I really only play brawl casually now. I've had more fun doing 64 and Pokemon recently, and I don't own a copy of brawl anymore.

 

[| Big D |]

Also if Yoshi jabs you they are looking for a dash grab follow up or a read on your spotdodge. Just be aware of that.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I have a question for both seibrik and dewdadash, you guys play esam the most of DDD's o assume and I was wondering what your opinions of the ice climbers mu is. Also how do you approach the mu and do you have any advice for us on how to win it?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

im probably going to tell you alot of things you don't want to hear right now


yes i play esam often but i've given up completely on the IC mu because of it


i think it is ddd's worst matchup by alot, they shut DDD down on every level when it comes to approaches and the reward for getting in is a huge risk on getting grabbed which then takes away from DDD's biggest strengths, his grab damage/followups

not to mention since most people know now to edgeguard DDD using grabs (grabs beat super armor up b) good IC's will make DDD waste his jumps and force an up b to get a free grab to death


nothing about this mu is fun and i had an arguement with someone at a tourney this weekend cause I was trying to argue that this MU may potentially be the worst matchup in the game overall until he brought up Falcon vs IC lol



just to give an idea of how much i hate the mu if you haven't gotten it yet

i just played ESAM in grand finals and he banned mk vs me (it was gentlemen's rule mk ban tourney)

after losing a few games with wario, it went to second set and i tried going DDD vs his pikachu

i won that game barely and when he was CPing i was pretty much auto-forced to switch off DDD cause I knew if i stayed ddd no matter what stage he went to, he would switch to IC's and pick up a free win

so it forced me to play wario vs his pika (which is an alright mu he's just outplaying me imo as a result of him being on his main and me not)

anyways


yeah


my thoughts on a horrible mu

my advice

pick up a character that deals with IC's on a somewhat equal level

suggestions: IC's, MK, Marth, Rob and Snake (depending on the IC your versing)

 

[DewDaDash]

I agree that it's one of our worst mus if not the worst. Not looking at any charts but looking from personal exp, my top worst mus would have to be ics,Mk,pika,zss. The truth is I was never able to beat an ics main with d3 for the past 4 years. I'd always just hope is never run into em in bracket. Occasionally I did and lost. Once I started fighting an ics main by daisy every tourney I figured enough was enough. The 1st time I played him in tourney I lost 1-2 going d3 the 1st match barely losing and then using Mk for the 1st time In tourney. I won the 2nd game then lost the 3rd on Sv. Fast forward to the next tourney I did the same thing. 1st round used Mk and lost, 2nd round barely won with d3 then 3rd match lost with d3. So go through losers bracket and have to play him again I decided I needed that I needed to drop my pride as a d3 main and try a set with all Mk. And I did. Guess what? I managed to beat him and have my 1st set win against ics. I managed to pick up Mk in approx. 2 months and do something that was holding me down for the past 4 years. Needless to say I won that tourney. Fast forward to the next tourney and I end up beating him again with all Mk. Also beat another ics drew at a tourney with all Mk. I'm telling u all this because u may feel like u can't win with a secondary when the going is tough. Truth is, it may only take one loss until u can finally overcome that barrier. For me this set in when I mmd a good friend of mine at APEx, dark flame. I used d3 and lost, then tried out Mk for the 1st time and was shocked that my Mk of 2 weeks old was on par with my d3, I think that was when I realized that sometimes it's best to switch off ur main. A tourney is about having the best chance possible of winning, not about leaving it up to luck, as is the case when u do a mu like that. To further emphasize my point, I tried coaching true blue at this most recent tourney vs daisy. I advised him to switch off sonic for either peach snake Mk or rob. He said maybe rob but In the end kept with his pride and stayed sonic. He ended up losing game 2 to daisy by being timed out by like 3%. Had he listened to me and went rob I feel he would've won since I knew by smarts he's the better player, as long as it can be changed to a game of battling of smarts rather than desperately not trying to get grabbed then ics becomes one of the easiest characters to deal with

 

[DewDaDash]

On another note, I feel the mu against Esam is -2. When I played him the 1st match vs his pika it was even at one stock a piece. Then he grabbed me and that Cg led me to like 0-100 so that drastically changed the match. 2nd match I barely lose to him and get him down to like 70-75%~. last stock. i feel that set was the one set that I played extremely on point with little to no screw ups. I am unsure if I want to try out d3 again next time or go Mk. Haven't tried Mk in tourney vs him yet except a friendly where I got him down to a stock. But my d3 did much better than expected so ill have to consider that too

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i can see pika being minus 1 at best

i ddd's grab game typically beats pika's he just has a better punish when he does land it but platform camping and bairs are somewhat effective against pika

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Well that definitely wasn't what I wanted to hear but was not exactly unexpected. Picking up a secondary is probably the right rout. Lucky for me I already have two decent secondarys in rob and wario. Now those two can probably deal with ice climbers for me but is there any other problem mu's that you two feel really should be handled via a secondary? I'm figuring mk amd maybe olimar...

thank you for being hones though. Reality is generally better than unrealistic optimism.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

all those things i posted were from my experiences and as such are simply my opinion based on those experiences.

never take anothers opinion without doing some research of your own and validating it through your own experiences
thats just general advice for life lol


that being said if you have gotten a fair share of ur own experience and wish to further seek my advice in CP's and such i really feel like the only character u NEED a 2nd for is IC


however if your already going through the trouble of picking up a 2nd for IC, you might as well pick a 2nd that can also do a bit better vs other characters you personally have issues with vs ddd


So if your telling me the three characters that give you the most trouble are IC MK and Olimar we should look at the MU chart for reference and pick a 2nd that you like that does the best vs those three overall

Rob i know has some trouble vs mk but does well vs IC and idk about olimar

Wario is even with IC and i believe olimar (although i have limited exp vs olimar in this MU) and gets walled out by MK

IC ***** olimar, has slight disadvantage to mk and obv. even with IC

MK has slight adv on IC and Oli and even with himself obv.

Snake i hear loses to Oli/mk and even with IC

Pika Loses to Oli and evenish with mk/IC

IDK at all about diddy lol


thats all i can think of off the top of my head

hoped this helped

 

[~ Gheb ~]

isuggestions: IC's, MK, Marth, Rob and Snake (depending on the IC your versing)

Scratch Marth of that list imo.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

I've heard its even tho

i dont have any personal experience in the mu at top lvl so idk

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know how it's supposed to be even. Marth can fight them but it's an uphill battle for him. I think MK, ICs, Snake, ROB and Peach are the characters that go at least even with ICs. Out of these Peach is out of the question as 2nd for DDD because Olimar and MK both destroy her, same goes for ROB though he might do a bit better vs Olimar. MK, ICs and Snake all have viable matchups against the three characters in question and so does Diddy though he arguably loses all of these matchups [and I'm personally fluctuating a lot on whether Diddy actually has a viable MU vs MK or not]. Just my 0.02 on that matter.

Edit: Marth also has viable matchups against all three, since you mentioned him.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

also i want to emphasize NOT picking up a third character if you can help it

splitting practice time between three characters somewhat evenly will greatly limit your ability to excel with your main or 2nd for that matter


trust me when i say this through extreme experience

#mk #ddd #wario

 

[DewDaDash]

Just pick up Mk. It's the closest mobility to d3 with Melee Marth mechanics. Literally takes like 2 months to get on par with ur d3. Both styles are very similar so it's not hard to transition from one to the other, not like u have to practice Dacus or something b4hand. Ud toughest mu is Mk and ics. So once I've got ics down, now u need to beat Mk. Lets face it the only time u can play Mk on an even level is by picking mk

 

[RaptorTEC]

I dunno. Sounds like you're scared Seibrik. ;P

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i'm not scared i just never underestimate anyone i plan to play

 

[RaptorTEC]

Before and after illustration of our mm.

Before:

Spoiler

After:

Spoiler

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Secondary discussion: ZSS.

Falco and Pikachu (and MK obvs (maybe Olimar?)) would be pretty much the only problematic MUs for that combo, although they all are very doable.

 

[Hoejja]

i can't see how we are supposed to beat a mk mainer with a pocket mk

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Secondary discussion: ZSS.

Falco and Pikachu (and MK obvs (maybe Olimar?)) would be pretty much the only problematic MUs for that combo, although they all are very doable.

Uh, MK / Olimar are pretty much ZSS' worst matchups and she does not cover the IC matchup by any stretch of the imagination -.-

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I just hate how mk is the mu crutch for basically every charecter... I dropped him after the mk ban and have been so much happier of a person for it. Oh well he really is the best option in the long run. I feel my best option to beat an mk would be to play mk even if it is the most common ditto ever...