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DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4
- Thread starter Xiivi
- Start date
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
I don't know how you could hate delfino as DDD. that is easily my favorite stage for DDD. He has so many silly gimmicks on that stage. But that is a really good way to put it. You do need to look at your counter picks on a stage and charecter level. If I like to go to FD to abuse DDD's chain grab I better be prepared for an ice climbers counter pick. As such rob would probably be a better choice than mk. But if I'm worried about mk or olimar on delfino rob would probably be a bad choice and maybe wario would be a better option.
Sometimes it's not about the MU and it's more about the way that you have to play in that MU (e.g. Pit).
ぱみゅ
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Olimar is as doable for ZSS as Pikachu/Falco are for DDD.Uh, MK / Olimar are pretty much ZSS' worst matchups and she does not cover the IC matchup by any stretch of the imagination -.-
A bit uphill but not too bad of a matchup.
And the ICs MU isn't bad either, she can keep herself pretty safe all the time, and punish Nana greatly for any mistake (her AI mostly). Not sure if it's a positive MU as the chart suggests, but it is definitely not bad.
Also, if all of you have the mentality of "I don't want ANY form or shape of a bad Matchup, even if slight or doable", then just pick MK and be part of the problem with Brawl.
I personally love delfino. Picking up mk just makes it that much better rofl. Oh you are trying to cp as mk on my fav stage? Two can play that game
Its actually a lot easier than you make it out to be. Your being put on an even playing field. Now god forbid u might actually beat the mk main because ur.. smarter than him? CRAZY STUFF I KNOW O_Oi can't see how we are supposed to beat a mk mainer with a pocket mk
I was using it as an example. ICs would be a better complement for my playstyle.I personally love delfino. Picking up mk just makes it that much better rofl. Oh you are trying to cp as mk on my fav stage? Two can play that game
Its actually a lot easier than you make it out to be. Your being put on an even playing field. Now god forbid u might actually beat the mk main because ur.. smarter than him? CRAZY STUFF I KNOW O_O
Also, as easy as Brawl is, I still don't expect a secondary MK to beat an MK main (e.g. Raven, ZMT, etc.).
Well, I can beat dolo and just mm'd seibrik and took a game off him, I ended up rage quitting when we were both at 2 stock game 3, I thought we were both at 1 stock ^^" So who knows how that could've went. You should have more faith in yourself. You make the mk mu sound tougher than it ought to be.
And im not sure who zmt is but I feel I can beat raven. I know hes pretty good but guess Ill just ask to play him next time I see him, hopefully he comes to metrocon.
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
Now that I think about it I am agreeing more and more with DewDaDash. To beat an mk you need to be better than them, period end of story. There are no negative mu's for him so to try and beat an mk would you rather do it from a further behind starting point or would you rather start off at the same point as them? And if mu knowledge is what is beating you then you just need to learn that some more. You shouldn't be relying on mu knowledge as your main battle point. That basically admits that you can only beat them if you don't keep playing each other.
Additionally the mk ditto is easily the most played mu by a wide margin so basically everyone should know it. You should always be on a level playing field for mu knowledge in the mk ditto at this point in the game's life.
Additionally the mk ditto is easily the most played mu by a wide margin so basically everyone should know it. You should always be on a level playing field for mu knowledge in the mk ditto at this point in the game's life.
I think that the MK dittos is among the most consistent MUs in the game and I think that it has a lot of subtleties that are available to abuse in the MU. That is what I'm saying. Also, I should have specified that I meant players on a similar level. If you're a lot better than someone they you're going to win unless there's a really bad MU (e.g. DDD vs. MK).
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I looked around for a bit, and couldn't find any information on this. If it's already known, then never mind.
http://youtu.be/5vPkd3mfqPE
http://youtu.be/5vPkd3mfqPE
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
well idk bout others but i already knew about this
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I assume we can do this to everyone we can CG, correct?
Also hi I'm re-picking up DDD
Also hi I'm re-picking up DDD
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
no im pretty sure its just snake and MAYBE those close to his dimensions in size/weight....
CourageHound
Smash Ace
Snake's size AND weight? So like no one right?
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
lol
i think wolf might work, maybe other chars we can already inf like bowser/dk
no one too important i dont think
i think wolf might work, maybe other chars we can already inf like bowser/dk
no one too important i dont think
CourageHound
Smash Ace
Has anyone tried that on the slopes of lylat?
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
slopes don't help inf anyone as far as i know at all
That's because it is essentially a wall infinite.
Standing on the short column, Dthrowing into the tall column with the grabbed character being suspended in the air/above the water.
It leads into a kill by waiting for the stage to come up past the water and gives you enough time to get in a last dash grab>Dthrow into the wall before it sinks beneath the stage, giving you a Utilt if they're at kill %.
Dark 3nergy
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Depending on some situations on slants and depending on the character it can land you an extra grab. Its not reliable if only because the pixel height of the stage isnt high enough to stop him completely 100% of the time.
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
So Seibrik, you are going to Whobo this year, you going all DDD? Any other DDDs going to Whobo? MK banned is the best place for DDD to be making some money.
DDD isn't a viable main in either format.
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
It's a whole lot easier to pick up a secondary that covers just ice climbers instead of both them and MK... I believe 4god won a decent sized MK banned tourney not that long ago.
There isn't a true pocket counter to either character while both characters are a pocket counter to DDD.
CourageHound
Smash Ace
I sometimes go D3 for lolz against a good ICs player I sometimes practice with. It pretty much feels impossible. Pretty ironic as we are DDD and have plenty of MUs with the converse perspective.
Whilst thinking about the matchup, I try to imagine characters that has similar technology(in terms of normals) as DDD yet an easier time at the matchup. Marth, Lucario, and wolf come to mind. I try to imagine what makes the matchup possible for marth and Cario yet impossible for DDD and try to capitalize on their strengths as DDD. They both have a good ground and aerial spacing game. Both can capitalize greatly once nana is separated. If anything i'd imagine DDD to have an easier time with things like spacing his multi hit and long range d-air, his multiple jumps to mix up landings, and inhale which I often use as a sort of "cushion" when landing to avoid grabs. Yet the MU still feels pretty impossible. Could someone breakdown for me why please? Could it be something we are doing wrong? On the surface I find it hard to picture DDD being completely shut down by ICs.
Whilst thinking about the matchup, I try to imagine characters that has similar technology(in terms of normals) as DDD yet an easier time at the matchup. Marth, Lucario, and wolf come to mind. I try to imagine what makes the matchup possible for marth and Cario yet impossible for DDD and try to capitalize on their strengths as DDD. They both have a good ground and aerial spacing game. Both can capitalize greatly once nana is separated. If anything i'd imagine DDD to have an easier time with things like spacing his multi hit and long range d-air, his multiple jumps to mix up landings, and inhale which I often use as a sort of "cushion" when landing to avoid grabs. Yet the MU still feels pretty impossible. Could someone breakdown for me why please? Could it be something we are doing wrong? On the surface I find it hard to picture DDD being completely shut down by ICs.
The biggest character frame in the game is essentially tied for the smallest lifespan, has comparable range but takes two or more times as much damage per hit, and is slower in the air and on the ground. Add in that it takes much longer for him to catch up to a stock or percent deficit and now you don't even have a time out factor like even characters like Jigglypuff can have.
Is Lucario vs IC actually a manageable matchup or are we just going by theory? Because I don't really see what it is that Lucario is supposed to be able to do against IC to stand a realistic chance against them. The Marth matchup also has gotten progressively worse to a point where knowledgable players like Pierce and Neo think that Marth can't even win it anymore.
I personally think that in order to go at least even with them you need to be able to apply pressure on them while staying safe from grabs. That sounds like rather generic explanation but most people seem to not understand that both conditions must be met at the same time and consistently throughout a match. That's why characters like Marth and ZSS lose the matchup despite having a handful of moves that are safe from getting grabbed directly. They can try to stay safe from grabs but then they lose the fight head-on because they can't pressure them or respond to their pressure. Or they can try to pressure them and risk getting grabbed in the process. But they cannot pressure them and stay safe from a grab at the same time. MK, Snake and ROB can do that, maybe Peach and TL too but I'm undecided on them.
I personally think that in order to go at least even with them you need to be able to apply pressure on them while staying safe from grabs. That sounds like rather generic explanation but most people seem to not understand that both conditions must be met at the same time and consistently throughout a match. That's why characters like Marth and ZSS lose the matchup despite having a handful of moves that are safe from getting grabbed directly. They can try to stay safe from grabs but then they lose the fight head-on because they can't pressure them or respond to their pressure. Or they can try to pressure them and risk getting grabbed in the process. But they cannot pressure them and stay safe from a grab at the same time. MK, Snake and ROB can do that, maybe Peach and TL too but I'm undecided on them.
CourageHound
Smash Ace
I dont know the ICs:Lucario MU but I was just referencing the tier list, so pardon me if that wasnt a suitable resource to identify the MU. However I do see your point in the conditions for being viable vs ICs.
Based on the above and what exadeath said, DDD is too slow to effectively pressure them. I suppose that's all there is to it?
Based on the above and what exadeath said, DDD is too slow to effectively pressure them. I suppose that's all there is to it?
Are those the only characters you believe can safely pressure ICs?MK, Snake and ROB can do that, maybe Peach and TL too but I'm undecided on them.
He didn't say safe; he said safe from a grab.
One has to be aware of the fact that playing safe and applying pressure is borderline contradictory in the context of this game. You can't apply pressure and stay safe at the same time unless you play a one sided matchup and these are rare among the good characters. Only Ice Climbers have truly one sided matchups against other viable characters.
In some matchups you win by putting your focus on remaining safe from getting hit in favor of great rewards gained by applying pressure [ie Falco beating ZSS]. In other matchups you win by putting your focus on gaining great rewards by applying pressure in favor of playing consistently safe [ie Snake beating low / mid tiers]. If one can gain great rewards while playing safe then we're dealing with a +3 / +4 matchup, unless it's against the Ice Climbers where it is basically the main requirement to be able to beat them in the first place. That's just how insane their punishment game is.
And for the record, the Ice Climbers still have a pretty good punish game without the grab [and a good moveset in general] which is why a lot of characters have to eat a ton of damage by trying to avoid the grab. It's a lose-lose situation unless you play one of the characters I mentioned though I'm quite unsure about Toon Link.
In some matchups you win by putting your focus on remaining safe from getting hit in favor of great rewards gained by applying pressure [ie Falco beating ZSS]. In other matchups you win by putting your focus on gaining great rewards by applying pressure in favor of playing consistently safe [ie Snake beating low / mid tiers]. If one can gain great rewards while playing safe then we're dealing with a +3 / +4 matchup, unless it's against the Ice Climbers where it is basically the main requirement to be able to beat them in the first place. That's just how insane their punishment game is.
And for the record, the Ice Climbers still have a pretty good punish game without the grab [and a good moveset in general] which is why a lot of characters have to eat a ton of damage by trying to avoid the grab. It's a lose-lose situation unless you play one of the characters I mentioned though I'm quite unsure about Toon Link.
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
I hear that Rob does well vs ice climbers but I haven't ever seen a good example of it. Do we have videos of like Chibo beating esam or something? Or is this mostly theory?One has to be aware of the fact that playing safe and applying pressure is borderline contradictory in the context of this game. You can't apply pressure and stay safe at the same time unless you play a one sided matchup and these are rare among the good characters. Only Ice Climbers have truly one sided matchups against other viable characters.
In some matchups you win by putting your focus on remaining safe from getting hit in favor of great rewards gained by applying pressure [ie Falco beating ZSS]. In other matchups you win by putting your focus on gaining great rewards by applying pressure in favor of playing consistently safe [ie Snake beating low / mid tiers]. If one can gain great rewards while playing safe then we're dealing with a +3 / +4 matchup, unless it's against the Ice Climbers where it is basically the main requirement to be able to beat them in the first place. That's just how insane their punishment game is.
And for the record, the Ice Climbers still have a pretty good punish game without the grab [and a good moveset in general] which is why a lot of characters have to eat a ton of damage by trying to avoid the grab. It's a lose-lose situation unless you play one of the characters I mentioned though I'm quite unsure about Toon Link.
Not gonna lie watching mvd is pretty awesome. Its gonna inspire me to watch old d3 vids from others and find anything I can change in my playstyle. I need to incorporate more gimmicks in my gameplay for sure. Ill try thinking of stuff
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
Could we get some links to the videos? I'm currently getting people to put links to videos cause I am too lazy to search for them myself.