DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[bubbaking]

I actually disagree. I think Falcos play the MU the way they should at both low and high level but not at mid level. At low level, Falcos spam lasers and Phantasm because they know it works and is easy to do. Even low-level Falcos can do SHDLs and IAPs (which they don't even need against low-level DDDs). Falco's CG is also probably the easiest CG to perform in the game. He can just walk to do it on DDD. On the other side of the MU, low-level DDDs have no idea what to do. They don't know how to PS lasers consistently, they don't know how to deal with Phantasm, and they don't know how to maximize their grabs via tech-chases and good edgeguarding. It isn't until mid-level that you start to see DDDs utilting Phantasm, getting gimps, and going for TCs. Ironically, this is also when I feel that Falcos start to get more aggressive needlessly because they have a whole slew of new techs under their belts (B/DACUS, Gatling Combo, Phantasm cancels, pivot grab CG, etc).

The only reason I think at mid level the MU is still -2 instead of -1, like at high level, is that the MU is pretty much the way it was seen at high level 'til now. Falco is allowed to be a bit more aggressive because DDDs haven't reached that 'high-level' way of thinking, complete with good decision-making, great reads, and the ability to see the 'big picture', allowing Falco to pretty much dominate the whole match. As an example of seeing the big picture, take the situation of DDD vs Falco at low %'s. DDD should be air/plat camping those low %'s, getting hits when he can, until he hits, say, 50% or so, when he can really start fighting. He has to be confident in his ability to live well past 150% and thus see the value in sacrificing the first third of his stock so that he isn't CG'd for free into a situation that may actually mean early death or damage way past that third he could have initially sacrificed to avoid the whole ordeal.

Hope this explains my previous stated opinion.

 

[CourageHound]

So basically, the skill level and/o experience of the DDD can make or break the falco MU? Kinda sucks, but once you feel confident in the falco MU and have as a player and brought it to a -1, I'd assume one can say they've become a proficient/"good" DDD? I havnt reached that marker just yet, as I have a bit more trouble with falco than I think I should have.

 

[bubbaking]

It's a lot easier for Falco to abuse his advantageous traits in the MU than it is for DDD to even realize the parts of the MU that keep it -1 in the first place. Skill level and experience play a HUGE role. Even I have a lot of trouble with Falco, but I still believe the MU is -1 from watching 4GOD play and from playing a good bit of the MU.

 

[Jabejazz]

So basically, the skill level and/o experience of the DDD can make or break the falco MU?

The way I see it, TripleD has very straightforward tools, having fairly linear utilities (minus his B/Side-B maybe). These tools, however, aren't nearly as good for a rushdown game. A starting player usually plays as such, which will probably yield lower than average results because of this.

He's a character that punishes mistakes and over-commitment. I firmly believe your disadvantageous MUs start looking much better when you start playing as such and use your tools for passive-agressive gameplay. In the many cases where you're forced to approach, you're usually doing it by slowing walking to your opponent, ftilt at the ready, threatening him with your telescopic grab range. You're still not commiting to anything other than your approach, and you react to whatever your opponent is doing accordingly. Not that many characters play like this in Brawl (there's Ganondorf as well, I guess, lol :V), and that's why I can see why TripleD can have a hard time learning some matchups.

That being said, at very low levels of play, you can just run around everywhere and dash-chaingrab people to win.

 

[pidgezero_one]

flaocjohn madden

 

[ぱみゅ]

Stef, this is not the Tier List thread, we talk about serious stuff here.

 

[pidgezero_one]

flaoc

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I actually disagree. I think Falcos play the MU the way they should at both low and high level but not at mid level. At low level, Falcos spam lasers and Phantasm because they know it works and is easy to do. Even low-level Falcos can do SHDLs and IAPs (which they don't even need against low-level DDDs). Falco's CG is also probably the easiest CG to perform in the game. He can just walk to do it on DDD. On the other side of the MU, low-level DDDs have no idea what to do. They don't know how to PS lasers consistently, they don't know how to deal with Phantasm, and they don't know how to maximize their grabs via tech-chases and good edgeguarding. It isn't until mid-level that you start to see DDDs utilting Phantasm, getting gimps, and going for TCs. Ironically, this is also when I feel that Falcos start to get more aggressive needlessly because they have a whole slew of new techs under their belts (B/DACUS, Gatling Combo, Phantasm cancels, pivot grab CG, etc).

The only reason I think at mid level the MU is still -2 instead of -1, like at high level, is that the MU is pretty much the way it was seen at high level 'til now. Falco is allowed to be a bit more aggressive because DDDs haven't reached that 'high-level' way of thinking, complete with good decision-making, great reads, and the ability to see the 'big picture', allowing Falco to pretty much dominate the whole match. As an example of seeing the big picture, take the situation of DDD vs Falco at low %'s. DDD should be air/plat camping those low %'s, getting hits when he can, until he hits, say, 50% or so, when he can really start fighting. He has to be confident in his ability to live well past 150% and thus see the value in sacrificing the first third of his stock so that he isn't CG'd for free into a situation that may actually mean early death or damage way past that third he could have initially sacrificed to avoid the whole ordeal.

Hope this explains my previous stated opinion.

I like how you usually go into detail about this kind of stuff. Well played.
I said what I said assuming I was a low-level player myself along with my friends who use Falco (which is like, 2 of them and I don't even play the other one, who's easily better than me). Going by your criteria, which was pretty much step-by-step, I suppose I am a mid-level player then- I do that kind of stuff, and so does the Falco I play more frequently. We tend to be like 55-45 slightly in my favor only because he does really silly things like being too aggresive.

 

[DewDaDash]

falco vs d3 is even guys trush meh =o

 

[Dekillsage]

Nope.








































Nope.

 

[DewDaDash]

What is this scrub doing here =o

 

[Exdeath]

falco vs d3 is even guys trush meh =o

You lost to Yoss.

 

[DewDaDash]

Yeah but I got him next time don't worry =P

 

[Exdeath]

You'd better!

I don't understand why you beat everything. non-Yoss and I can only beat Yoss and Lad.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I definitely agree ddd goes even with falco. I personally feel falco is kinda overrated... He struggles so much to get a kill that you can just kind of pressure him and prepare for the up smash and you should never really die.

 

[CourageHound]

I've been told its his damage racking prowess that makes Falco effective. That, his CG, zoning and pressure ability. Really, I'd be fine with falco if it wasn't for his lasers. They create the frame traps that help him land kills and apply prssure no matter how prepared you are for them. And he has that D-throw > BDacus

 

[ぱみゅ]

Falco doesn't need to directly kill you, he can rack up damage, get you lo like 170 by staying pretty safe, Ftilt you, force you to recover, and punish DDD's super laggy Recovery.
However, Falco's Illusion is extremely punishable as well.

The Matchup is basically about who puts the opponent in a recovery sutuation better.

 

[CourageHound]

Unfortunately, I believe falco has an easier time doing that in most situations I believe.

 

[bubbaking]

One balancing trait, however, is that DDD will regularly live way past 150%. Whenever I see 4GOD do the MU, he regularly lives well past 200%. This % is reliable because DDD doesn't really get gimped. He gets edgeguarded, which leads to more damage, but all kills on him should be from outright KOs. Otherwise, he can always recover. Falco, on the other hand, will die to utilt around 100%, and he can also end up gimped extremely early if we make the right reads. IMO, this MU is -1.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I feel that quite often ddd's will let falco's laser for free. If he short hops and doesn't instantly illusion you can throw an ftilt right under him to pop him up before the laser comes out. And at the same distance you space this at is also almost the exact same spacing to be in the perfect spacing to punish a illusion that hits your shield. I feel ddd actually spaces flaoc extremely well and once you pop him up once you get in the rps situation of punishing landings with grabs and aerials. Its when you let flaoc get too close during the neutral game that stuff gets real bad in my opinion.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

its been over a full day since my last post so I think I'm fine double posting...

What do people think of the peach matchup? There has been a surplus of peach talk on the tier list thread so I thought I would continue it here. Maybe we can even summon drk peach in here to really get the debate going.

I don't know if I am in the minority here but I really feel the matchup is probably +1 for us at worst and probably more close to being +2.

It comes down to peach bring very limited in mobility, and being walled out. Most of peach's aerials are just out right beaten by bair first off. The only move she has that can really out space is a perfectly spaced fair as far as I know. This allows us to safely zone her out with this move very easily and safely. Her best option to beat this is by trying to not challenge us in the air and try to run in and shield the bair and punish. So we do have to make sure to keep our grab finger ready to dissuade such approaches.

The big thing to remember in this mu is how bad it gets for us if she gets in. if we get stuck in our shield we are taking damage. Probably lots of it. Peach is very safe on shield and our shield options are pretty slow.

Summery: keep her out, don't get caught in shield, profit.

 

[CourageHound]

I think you pretty much covered it. As long as we space well and keep safe, we can wall her out. I like to take a passive aggressive approach to this match-up.

The first thing almost all peaches do at the start of the match is pull a turnip and approach with it. This is a crucial point of the match because if you get caught trying to defend the turnip but let peach get it, your eating a ton off damage. However once that is taken care of(you've avoided the turnip and walled her out slowly push her to the edge of the stage. Be careful not to get greedy and get punished and make your you don't give her time to land and pluck a turnip by spacing F-tilts. Get her offstage and start edge guarding. Just don't get combo'd.

That's my basic approach to the match up. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

actually you just reminded me, I'm fairly certain bair beats out normal turnips. You can just kick those things out of the air. Not sure if this works with stich faces though just to warn...

 

[Jabejazz]

Or you can y'know, catch them.

Might be only me, but catching them is much easier than trying to clash with your bair from a neutral position.

 

[Exdeath]

Or you can y'know, catch them.

Might be only me, but catching them is much easier than trying to clash with your bair from a neutral position.

Catching them isn't always a good idea due to 's zoning vulnerability while holding them. At the same time, turnips considerably buff his offensive game.

 

[CourageHound]

But like, every peach I've played rushes you while throwing a turnip. Wont catching one get you punished?

 

[bubbaking]

It can, since DDD can't shieldgrab (or grab in general) or bair while holding a turnip. The Peach MU is definitely at least a +1 for us. Everyone here should learn how to SCSG for that MU; it really wrecks Peach when we grab her. Peach is very good at racking up damage when we are at low %'s. Once we are past mid %'s, Peach's combos don't really work very well, and this just serves to make the MU even worse for her. Just make sure you aren't hit by any fresh usmashes and you should always be living to 200%.

 

[Exdeath]

It can, since DDD can't shieldgrab (or grab in general) or bair while holding a turnip. The Peach MU is definitely at least a +1 for us. Everyone here should learn how to SCSG for that MU; it really wrecks Peach when we grab her. Peach is very good at racking up damage when we are at low %'s. Once we are past mid %'s, Peach's combos don't really work very well, and this just serves to make the MU even worse for her. Just make sure you aren't hit by any fresh usmashes and you should always be living to 200%.

can Bair while holding a turnip. Every character can use aerials while holding an item: Hold A and then use C-Stick for the aerial.

 

[bubbaking]

When do you press A if you use Z to catch turnips? Does this work if you hold Z instead?

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I don't feel like turnips really add much to ddd's tools though. his glide toss is pathetic and other than that what does the turnip add that a simple waddle doesn't... You can use the turnip for pressuring from above with z drop but this is a mu where I don't feel this is useful. You aren't exactly going to be dancing around above the opponent... As such this is why I say just kick the stupid vegetable.

 

[bubbaking]

IMO, a Waddle's even better with all the tools it has in every MU.

 

[ぱみゅ]

can Bair while holding a turnip. Every character can use aerials while holding an item: Hold A and then use C-Stick for the aerial.

Z-drop Aerial Attack Insta-regrab.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Z-drop Aerial Attack Insta-regrab.

Can this be done given any aerial momentum or does it need to involve falling out fast falling. Ie I can't jump and while jumping perform z drop insta re-grab

 

[ぱみゅ]

With DDD's puny aerial jumps and Turnips' floatiness, it might be possible; idk, I can't test atm.

 

[Exdeath]

Z-drop Aerial Attack Insta-regrab.

That's also going to have considerably more start-up.

I don't feel like turnips really add much to ddd's tools though. his glide toss is pathetic and other than that what does the turnip add that a simple waddle doesn't... You can use the turnip for pressuring from above with z drop but this is a mu where I don't feel this is useful. You aren't exactly going to be dancing around above the opponent... As such this is why I say just kick the stupid vegetable.

Turnips are slow enough that allowing them to hit block either covers unsafe moves with relatively low start-up (e.g. Ftilt) or allows safe moves with lots of start-up to charge/hit (e.g. Fsmash).

 

[dean.]

Does Tech still post here? I miss Tech.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

No not many people still post here at all. Ddd boards have been pretty dead lately. Admittedly most of the boards have been feeling pretty dead...

 

[ぱみゅ]

The calm before the ****storm that will happen when SSB4 is announced.

 

[CourageHound]

Yea I think that's about right

 

[Jabejazz]

The calm before the ****storm that will happen when SSB4 is announced.

Then again, these boards will still be dead since we'll be moving to the SSB4 boards.
Which makes me wonder...
Are you guys still gonna play TripleD if he ends up being garbage in SSB4?

I love this fella's design with a passion, so I might stick with him. Then again, I'm a semi tier-*****, as in, I don't necessarily want the top tier, but I like being able to main a character that doesn't get demolished by everything. It's way too soon to judge, but usually, heavy/large characters in Smash tend to suck, TripleD just happened to have a great tool set and great stats to complement his weight to do relatively well. He might not be as lucky in the next iteration. I can definitely see Sakurai removing his D-Throw chaingrab.