DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[KuroganeHammer]

Guys you hear that d3 is mid tier now? We can actually win tourneys frequently again! ;D Midtier tournys ftw

I think it's slightly absurd that he's mid tier, but I think this is a problem with how they separated the gaps rather than a problem with the tier list itself.

Had it been sorted like this:

Top:
S: Meta Knight
A: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Marth, Snake, Falco

High:
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Lucario, King Dedede

Mid:
C: Toon Link, Wolf, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, R.O.B., Peach
D: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi

Low:
E: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
F: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon

Bottom
G:Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

The community would have been less... umm... unhappy with it.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Yea.
Like.
The way they ordered it's totally fine.
Just.
All those gaps.
Lucario and D3 in mid-tier. ._.

I understand it doesn't change how good my character is, but it feels like it undermines the efforts that Lucario mains have put into this character. I certainly know the characters too good to be in mid-tier, so that means the blame for him being there falls on us.

and man.
We can't even wreck mid-tier tourneys now either because ya'll are in mid-tier with us. :I

#salt

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, there's so many gaps that you can't even read the uncondensed version on a full screen. lawl

Doesn't matter, the morons in that thread will continue to parade it as "worst tier lits eva" like they do with every tier list since the dawn of time.

I think it's unlikely that it'll be changed btw, for mid tier tournaments, I'd honestly just suggest to use v7 (mid and low tier are BASICALLY the same apart from Dedede, Lucario and Lucas).

Next year hopefully it gets rectified.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

The coat breathes really well though, so he can wear it anywhere~

I've been meaning to ask, where did you get your avatar frawm.

Also

did you know your yoshi gif thing has a rouge pixel that appears. i cannot unsee it.

Yes.

And it will forever be burned into your vision.

You will see rouge pixils wherever you go, It is too late to escape!



Here ya go broham btws :3

http://marshtompkd.deviantart.com/art/Water-323882121

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It's about ****ing time.

That Yoshi gif is cut off very awkwardly

Maybe I'll start playing Brawl again in Mid-tiers

 

[bubbaking]

Guys you hear that d3 is mid tier now? We can actually win tourneys frequently again! ;D Midtier tournys ftw

Nobody hosts Mid Tier tourneys anyway though, and with these recent developments, only Low Tier tourneys will ever be run. That or DDD will be banned from MT tournaments.

I understand it doesn't change how good my character is, but it feels like it undermines the efforts that Lucario mains have put into this character. I certainly know the characters too good to be in mid-tier, so that means the blame for him being there falls on us.

Pretty much this, regarding DDD. I don't understand what convinced the BBR that DDD was Mid Tier material, results-wise (because he definitely isn't, MU-wise), when solo DDD mains like Coney and 4GOD were placing extremely well in notable tourneys and taking big names since 2010 through now (it never stopped). Then you have Vex who got a respectable placing (33rd) at APEX 2013 with pretty much only DDD and G&W, taking out several of the world's best Diddys in the process, and THEN you have up-and-coming really good DDDs, like DewDaDash and Zekey, who are also taking sets off of good players. You know what? I think for some reason, everyone thinks that every well-placing DDD 'main' is another Atomsk or Seibrik, someone who only plays DDD against Snake or a MT/LT char and would rather play MK, Wario, or even the ICs. Those guys are top DDD players, but I wouldn't call them representative of what DDD can do in a tourney or where he belongs in a tier list, not in the slightest. Most people probably also think that DDD sucks as a character, which I don't fully agree with.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hearing dewdadash and zekey referred to as 'up and coming' is weird to me. they both have been pretty much playing the game since it came out (i know Dew has been in the scene since melee) and up and coming makes it seem like they just started playing last year.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, you're right. I don't know why I suddenly decided to refer to them as "up-and-coming". Perhaps it was because they're not on the same level (yet) as Coney, 4GOD, Vex, Atomsk, and Seibrik. Nevertheless, they're both clearly very high-level DDDs and I've always mentioned them as such before now. I live in VA now, and Chudat is always talking about how good his cousin down in FL is.

 

[DewDaDash]

I feel like nowadays in order to be considered a top d3, you have to switch mains within tournys, kind of ironic but seems to be my general understanding of what the community has subtly said.

 

[Exdeath]

You say "shouldn't", but the fact of the matter is that it still happens. Even top players are hit by it and the very real possibility of it happening shapes their decision-making when Marth is in position to upB to the ledge. People usually don't really option-select most of their actions with unseen and mostly unused button presses, I think.

I said that it shouldn't happen often, not that it shouldn't happen. Your logic could apply to not going for grabs with a chance for tripping because it still happens. Even top players trip and the very real possibility of it happening shapes their decision-making when the opponent is in position to be grabbed.

People not usually doing something doesn't make it any less viable or easy. Some Japanese players use it and I believe that Nairo does also.

 

[Jabejazz]

Doesn't matter, the morons in that thread will continue to parade it as "worst tier lits eva" like they do with every tier list since the dawn of time

As a fellow moron, I'm okay with this.

Also, I believe Marc mentioned the "Upper mid" tier could be considered the "borderline" tier, as far as mid tier tournaments go.
Either way, I still think the current Upper Mid tier proved time and again it's better than that. But it's whatever.

I feel like nowadays in order to be considered a top d3, you have to switch mains within tournys, kind of ironic but seems to be my general understanding of what the community has subtly said.

Care to elaborate on this?

 

[DewDaDash]

Most of the people considered "top" d3s, have to switch mains early in bracket to get where they are in the results. Had they stayed d3, their results would look MUCH worse since they wouldn't be able to play those higher in bracket. By sticking to your main character, you are thereby hindering your results since you don't place as well as those above you and usually get overlooked as long as there's a d3 in the results placed in side by mk/ics/falco.

 

[Jabejazz]

That just makes you a top (insert character you main here) who happens to have a good pocket TripleD then?

 

[DewDaDash]

Pretty much but thats not how its viewed in reality.

 

[CourageHound]

DDD in mid Tiers eh? Interesting. However I remember reading nobody host mid-tier tournies anymore?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yes.

And it will forever be burned into your vision.

You will see rouge pixils wherever you go, It is too late to escape!



Here ya go broham btws :3

http://marshtompkd.deviantart.com/art/Water-323882121

Thanks Xiroey <3

That Yoshi gif is cut off very awkwardly

Also this, loooooool

As a fellow moron, I'm okay with this.

is okay, I still like you anyway.

I miss Tech Chase.

 

[Ereth]

Actually, you're right. I don't know why I suddenly decided to refer to them as "up-and-coming". Perhaps it was because they're not on the same level (yet) as Coney, 4GOD, Vex, Atomsk, and Seibrik. Nevertheless, they're both clearly very high-level DDDs and I've always mentioned them as such before now. I live in VA now, and Chudat is always talking about how good his cousin down in FL is.

DewDaDash is a better D3 than Seibrik, plus Ryo's link is 1-1 with Seibrik's D3 in MM's lol

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Upper-Mid, guys. Let's not get it confused. "Borderline", if you will. It's...alright, I guess? It actually feels like this is the perfect spot, seeing as he does really well against mid tiers and below, but does pretty bad against the higher-tier characters.
I still kind of...I don't know, rather strange. I'm so used to seeing this fatso up there, rather than in the middle (don't get me wrong, in no way do I claim that tier positions makes the character itself worse).

 

[FredFuchs]

i still don't think ddd should be mid tier

 

[Angiance]

Player's that dedicate themselves to their character, no matter the scenario, are always S tier at heart.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Player's that dedicate themselves to their character, no matter the scenario, are always S tier at heart.

Dawwww.
Dude, that totally made me smile. <3

 

[bubbaking]

Most of the people considered "top" d3s, have to switch mains early in bracket to get where they are in the results. Had they stayed d3, their results would look MUCH worse since they wouldn't be able to play those higher in bracket. By sticking to your main character, you are thereby hindering your results since you don't place as well as those above you and usually get overlooked as long as there's a d3 in the results placed in side by mk/ics/falco.

I understand what you're saying, but IIRC, all the solo DDD mains I named above got where they did going either solo DDD or going mostly that. Coney and 4GOD would even stay DDD for ICs. Coney beat Vinnie's ICs really badly with DDD once; it was a 3-stock. 4GOD's DDD took out ESAM's ICs the one time they ever faced off in tourney. He got 2nd at that tourney, I believe, and he regularly gets top 4 placements at several tournaments with solo DDD. Even Vex got 33rd at APEX 2013 going mostly DDD with a little G&W (worse character) here and there.

Edit: Oh, and Coney also 3-stocked M2K's MK at SiiS.

Upper-Mid, guys. Let's not get it confused. "Borderline", if you will. It's...alright, I guess? It actually feels like this is the perfect spot, seeing as he does really well against mid tiers and below, but does pretty bad against the higher-tier characters.
I still kind of...I don't know, rather strange. I'm so used to seeing this fatso up there, rather than in the middle (don't get me wrong, in no way do I claim that tier positions makes the character itself worse).

I don't think this is the perfect spot at all. Let's see. He beats the top tier character, Marth, solidly. He beats the formerly top tier character, Wario, REALLY badly. He beats the formerly high tier character, Lucario, very solidly. I personally think he goes even against Snake, but all the recent results suggest DDD definitely beats Snake, and most people will agree the MU is either even or in DDD's favor. He barely loses (-1) to Diddy and ZSS and possibly to Falco as well, all of which are top tier except for ZSS who is high tier. His only bad MUs are MK, ICs, and Olimar. That's really it. He also bodies everyone below him. The character really didn't deserve to sink into....."upper-mid/borderline" tier.

 

[FredFuchs]

4GOD's DDD took out ESAM's ICs the one time they ever faced off in tourney. He got 2nd at that tourney, I believe, and he regularly gets top 4 placements at several tournaments with solo DDD.

just out of curiosity, what tournament was this and did he beat any notable players there?

 

[bubbaking]

I don't remember the name of the tourney, but I will search for it sometime in the future. I know that it was the GFs of that tourney, so I'm certain that 4GOD got 2nd at that tourney. You can also be very sure that 4GOD has beaten many very good players in disadvantageous MUs. I personally have watched sets of him defeating Kismet, Player-1, and BigLou several times, and he's also ranked quite high on the GA/AL PR.

 

[CourageHound]

Yea I've watched a few of 4God's sets too. As well as this one really good European DDD. I dont think D3 as a character has trouble placing high. We(As DDD mains/players) just need to learn to deal with the geyness of the few top tiers that give him trouble.

 

[Coney]

Coney beat Vinnie's ICs really badly with DDD once; it was a 3-stock.

this never happened

vinnie and i have played in tournament twice

the first time was against his g&w at a ktar...close set, came to last hit, he won

second time was at apex 2012...vinnie was obviously first seed in a pool of me, himself, mjg, kunai, dill, and some others. i just beat mjg and was playing vinnie for top seed, pretty sure i would lose, and he just...gave me the games. went ICs game 1 and beat me solidly, game 2 he didn't really try to grab me, and game 3 he went g&w and just tried to 9 me

vinnie and i are really cool and in the same crew and i think he just wanted to give me 1st seed, but no i've never beaten him legitimately

this happened the first time we ever played the MU tho (it was funny because this was in my prime and everyone was talking me up as "SOOOO GOOD" against ICs, then this silly **** happens)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y1AdV6KZBM

 

[DewDaDash]

I was curious as to what set you were talking about since I never watched it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53LbLxktNEQ He caught a lucky break against his ics win but still lost the set 3-1

Also as far as bad mus you forgot to add pikachu. I havent fought esam since 09 though so I'm not going to give a MU ratio. It was bad then but I didnt know half of the tools that I do know now. Hopefully i can play him to get a better understanding of it, I just historically recall its not in our favor.

 

[FredFuchs]

might have been vex. vex and vinnie met in bracket neither in apex 09 or 10

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I don't think this is the perfect spot at all. Let's see. He beats the top tier character, Marth, solidly. He beats the formerly top tier character, Wario, REALLY badly. He beats the formerly high tier character, Lucario, very solidly. I personally think he goes even against Snake, but all the recent results suggest DDD definitely beats Snake, and most people will agree the MU is either even or in DDD's favor. He barely loses (-1) to Diddy and ZSS and possibly to Falco as well, all of which are top tier except for ZSS who is high tier. His only bad MUs are MK, ICs, and Olimar. That's really it. He also bodies everyone below him. The character really didn't deserve to sink into....."upper-mid/borderline" tier.

Hmm...you're actually right. I didn't think it over like you did, and forgot about Wario, Snake and Lucario (even though he's High tier...or was? I don't remember much about current tier placements).
Diddy Kong only has a +1 against DDD? But the MU Chart says it's -2 for us, and I don't see it being just -1 unless you're like, Vex, or something (then again, I have to point out I'm pretty bad at that MU myself, so feel free to correct me, I indulge you). I actually see us having -1 against Falco, defenitely against ZSS and maybe even against Pikachu, if we could with Falco (they both CG DDD to similiar percents, have an annoying projectile, Falco's projectile is more annoying than Pikachu's, and they have very similiar weights so we could kill them somewhat early).

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think it's slightly absurd that he's mid tier, but I think this is a problem with how they separated the gaps rather than a problem with the tier list itself.

Had it been sorted like this:

Top:
S: Meta Knight
A: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Marth, Snake, Falco

High:
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario

Borderline

Lucario, DDD, Toon Link

Mid:
C: Wolf, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, R.O.B., Peach
D: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi

Low:
E: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
F: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon

Bottom
G:Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

The community would have been less... umm... unhappy with it.

I agree with this placing. I think it's really silly how they seperated gaps like that, even giving out an extra S for MK.
Although personally, I'd keep the "Borderline" tier. See how I re-ordered it? It'd be there to seperate the characters that stand more of a chance.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

You guys seem to be talking a lot about how Dedede can do things, beat characters, etc etc

But c'mon. He's still Dedede. He can beat some top/high tiers, sure, but the ones he does beat don't have much presence (Lucario, Wario) save for Marth. And not ONLY that, but Marth and Snake (Who I still don't believe loses to Dedede match-up wise) can still beat us. Outside of that, every other high/top tier (read as: Characters that get played very frequently) can beat Dedede almost very decidedly in some situations. Let's not overrate the fat bird.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't like the term "borderline"
I'd rather call them lower high than BL or MID
Although, the thread itself said that possible Mid-Tier tournaments can just exclude that or the tier next, or can start from vitually any tier or whatever.

Seriously, it's too much of an upset simply because of the names.

 

[bubbaking]

I was curious as to what set you were talking about since I never watched it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53LbLxktNEQ He caught a lucky break against his ics win but still lost the set 3-1

Also as far as bad mus you forgot to add pikachu. I havent fought esam since 09 though so I'm not going to give a MU ratio. It was bad then but I didnt know half of the tools that I do know now. Hopefully i can play him to get a better understanding of it, I just historically recall its not in our favor.

Yeah, Pika is one of them, IMO, but I didn't mention him because some DDDs think he may only be a -1 for Pika. I mean, well, ESAM is ESAM, after all. Dude bodies people with DK. I've also seen 4GOD get top 3 placements at a bunch of other tourneys in which P-1, BigLou, Kismet, and other big names in the area were involved so he's definitely no slouch and he does it all with solo DDD. I think he's possibly the closest thing to a 'perfect DDD' we've got right now.

might have been vex. vex and vinnie met in bracket neither in apex 09 or 10

I wasn't really looking for which DDD vs ICs it was. I remember very well watching 4GOD vs ESAM and Coney vs Vinnie. Coney explained his situation above. Dew explained 4GOD's. Besides, I've watched Vex vs ICs (ESAM). Sorry to say it, but he kinda sucks vs ICs. Way too aggressive playstyle.

Hmm...you're actually right. I didn't think it over like you did, and forgot about Wario, Snake and Lucario (even though he's High tier...or was? I don't remember much about current tier placements).
Diddy Kong only has a +1 against DDD? But the MU Chart says it's -2 for us, and I don't see it being just -1 unless you're like, Vex, or something (then again, I have to point out I'm pretty bad at that MU myself, so feel free to correct me, I indulge you). I actually see us having -1 against Falco, defenitely against ZSS and maybe even against Pikachu, if we could with Falco (they both CG DDD to similiar percents, have an annoying projectile, Falco's projectile is more annoying than Pikachu's, and they have very similiar weights so we could kill them somewhat early).

Lucario is Mid Tier with DDD now. Diddy Kong and ZSS are definitely becoming -1's for DDD in the next MU chart. If you want to see great examples of that MU at top level, check out 4GOD vs P-1 and BigLou (there are a whole crapload of those matches) and Vex vs Luigi Player, P-1, and Suinoko. As for Falco, 4GOD vs Kismet is a good example of that MU at top level. Pika and Falco are veeery different, though. Pika is faster and more mobile, harder to hit, has a much better recovery, can take up HUGE amounts of space with jolts and thunder, just the kinds of things that we don't like. It also doesn't help that he has two CG throws on us so he can KO us out the side if we're not careful.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Do the MU Charts base themselves on high/top-level players only?
Also, I'll check out those sets. I don't really know much about other DDDs other than Coney and Vex, and a little about DewDaDash.

 

[CourageHound]

Do the MU Charts base themselves on high/top-level players only?
Also, I'll check out those sets. I don't really know much about other DDDs other than Coney and Vex, and a little about DewDaDash.

I believe match-ups are supposed to be based on the highest level of play possible iirc. The chart would be faulty if it didn't represent the epitome of the characters advantages and disadvantages vs each other and the players' skill to execute it(assuming both players of equal skill level).

For example at low levels of play, DDD vs Snake, DDD has a solid advantage. Mid levels, DDD is like +1. High-top levels, Its debated weather its -/+ 1 for either side or just even.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

You. I like you. You know what's up.

 

[FredFuchs]

Diddy Kong only has a +1 against DDD? But the MU Chart says it's -2 for us, and I don't see it being just -1 unless you're like, Vex, or something (then again, I have to point out I'm pretty bad at that MU myself, so feel free to correct me, I indulge you).

ddd v diddy was confirmed to be -1 in v3

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, so was DDD:ZSS.

@CourageHound: Exactly. That's also how it works the other way around as well for a bunch of DDD's -1 MUs. At low level, DDD:Falco seems like it's -3 or something. We can't CG and Falco just CGs us and spams lasers + Phantams. At mid level, it gets better (probably around -2 or so), and at high/top level, it starts approaching that -1 area where DDDs learn to camp out their early %'s and then take advantage of all the punish opportunities they get.

 

[CourageHound]

The only major issue vs ZSS i can fathom(lack of MU knowledge on my part) is the armor pieces if the ZSS is really good with them.

Also, I just happened to see CT Zero's ideal tier list. Pretty happy with his placement of DDD and his reasoning.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Yeah, so was DDD:ZSS.

@CourageHound: Exactly. That's also how it works the other way around as well for a bunch of DDD's -1 MUs. At low level, DDD:Falco seems like it's -3 or something. We can't CG and Falco just CGs us and spams lasers + Phantams. At mid level, it gets better (probably around -2 or so), and at high/top level, it starts approaching that -1 area where DDDs learn to camp out their early %'s and then take advantage of all the punish opportunities they get.

I don't think it's -3 at that level. It's actually easier because Falcos aren't playing the MU the way they should.