DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[Exdeath]

I played against Orion's Fox in friendlies a couple weeks ago. We went pretty much dead even, and the guy's a better Brawl player than me. That MU is definitely no worse than even for DDD. His attacks are too hard to perfectly space for him to never get shieldgrabbed, one grab can lead to a lot of silly damage, and utilt can bust through his moves if timed well (I killed him once by utilting through his usmash, since utilt gives invincibility).

So you believe that the match-up is even or worse for due to difficulty of playing perfectly with and cite a non-top-level player using a pocket character in friendlies as evidence of this?

 

[bubbaking]

If you've looked at my posts on the issue, I have PLENTY of evidence and reasoning on an even MU. This is just stuff to add to the cache. I say "definitely" because all the evidence I have (and have given out for review) suggest that DDD wins the MU. However, tempered with reasoning, I would actually say that the MU is even. It's actually harder for DDD to play perfectly in this MU because Fox can just camp.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Trump is kinda incredible..... Just saying.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Hey guys, did you hear? Zero supports us and would like to see DDD rise into a Top tier. (:

"7.- DeDeDe (Can beat anyone in the cast but Meta Knight, who nullifies him with mix ups.) Bad MU's with most of the top tiers, except Marth/ZSS make him the worst top tier. He does decent/not so good vs everyone, but CAN beat them. Superior to Lucario, since more solid MU's and even beats him. That's why he is above Lucario. He can beat Pikachu and Ice Climbers, which Falco can't. This is why DeDeDe is better than Falco MU wise, and tournament wise, better. (Falco is a better char than him, but tourney wise, no). This is why D3 is superior to Falco."

 

[Jabejazz]

Even if his tier list would be close to what it's supposed to be, his tier lists takes in consideration that the player has a frame-perfect play (as implied by his explanation on why IC should be #1 in the tier list). Nobody in a single given set can play perfectly for the whole duration. Therefore, whether TripleD deserves that spot on his tier list or not is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I don't think Zero implied every single character he listed would have to be played perfectly, only the ICs. Otherwise MK and Marth could just easily go above them with perfect spacing.
As for the part he says that DDD can beat ICs and Pikachu, that's where it is implied DDD should play perfectly, and the ICs obviously has to make alot of mistakes to lose a +3 MU. DDD has +1 against Marth and 0 (although for some reason they listed it as -2) against ZSS. He does well against every other character.

 

[bubbaking]

Some of us think that DDD only loses -2 to ICs. I've played DarkFlame in the MU. It's not that bad. Once you get just ONE hit in, you can go to town. DDD loses to ZSS -1, but it's better than the -2 we used to have. DDD still loses -2 to Olimar, -3 to MK, and either -1 or -2 to Pika, but other than those four, DDD does indeed have good MUs. If you can manage to play well against those four (or have counterpicks for them), you're set. My secondaries are G&W and Marth and that takes care of literally every single one of DDD's counters (except for MK, obviously, but Marth goes almost even with him anyway and G&W:MK isn't that bad).

 

[Deleted member 189823]

How does a DDD approach ICs? Someone told me that the only way to win is by a time-out. The same person also told me that MK and Olimar are worse MUs because apparently ICs can't do anything to you from afar and Olimar can.

 

[DewDaDash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MqZrejnyTOU This is me Playing zero on wifi, such silly shenanigans xD

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Oh, it was you? Could've sworn it was a DDD from Chile.

 

[bubbaking]

I doubt you'll be winning by a time-out. The ICs are usually in an advantageous position versus us all the time, no matter where we are, and even while camping, which we should be doing, he will probably be racking up damage on us. Eventually, he can kill us with uair or upB if we don't act.

We approach by camping forever until we either see an opening or a mix-up opportunity to land a separating hit. We can try to poke while camping with dairs and bairs. Once we land a hit, you need to make the momentum last. Also, don't be too afraid to grab the ICs, even though there are two of them. Our side throws have spectacular hitboxes that cover us really well. Our Inhale is also really good at nabbing one of the ICs and separating them. Make use of all of these tools.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

One nice thing about this mu is that ddd is one of the few characters that can be above ice climbers safely in that our dair beats their uair and we have multiple jumps and the fastest fast fall for a lot more mix ups against ice climbers from above than most.

 

[Jabejazz]

I don't think Zero implied every single character he listed would have to be played perfectly, only the ICs.

He did though. By comparing every character to ICs (whether they win or lose against him), it is implied that the other character has to play perfectly. Otherwise, should he not imply that the other characters are meant to be played at a frame perfect level, he's putting IC on a pedestal and is therefore invalidating his whole tier list.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

He did though. By comparing every character to ICs (whether they win or lose against him), it is implied that the other character has to play perfectly. Otherwise, should he not imply that the other characters are meant to be played at a frame perfect level, he's putting IC on a pedestal and is therefore invalidating his whole tier list.

But he said that characters did beat Ice climbers and that they only the best like fox is in melee only in theory but not in practice. The only part that needed that perfection was ice climbers placing over mk. Take out the perfection and the only thing that changes is mk is best and Ice climbers are second. Nothing else changes cause nothing else was dependant on perfect game play. People are really over reading into ice climbers being first in zero's tier list...

 

[Jabejazz]

But he said that characters did beat Ice climbers and that they only the best like fox is in melee only in theory but not in practice. The only part that needed that perfection was ice climbers placing over mk. Take out the perfection and the only thing that changes is mk is best and Ice climbers are second. Nothing else changes cause nothing else was dependant on perfect game play. People are really over reading into ice climbers being first in zero's tier list...

You just can't put someone at the top of a tier list, because he is "theoretically" better, then ignore theory to rank the rest of the cast. Otherwise, the tier list loses all logic.

If IC truly is the best character based on theory, and that theory is based on the fact you play flawlessly, then the rest of the tier list is based on the very same assumption that each character is ranked on the "frame perfect" theory.

 

[bubbaking]

I actually disagree with that Fox statement from Zero. It has been proven that Fox is the best not only in theory but in practice as well. Most (read: practically all) people don't even play him properly and he still hogs up most of the top placements at notable tourneys (e.g. ROM 5 where pretty much every other placing in the top 24 was a Fox with the exception of a Falco). I suspect that some personal 'character main bias' may have been in play here, since Zero mains Fox in Melee.

 

[DewDaDash]

zero said d3 can play against ics, that alone should raise some red flags

 

[bubbaking]

DDD can; it's just really hard. Not as bad as MK, though. That MU is really dependent on the stage. As long as FD is always banned, I think we stand a chance. The ICs kinda suck at chasing aerial opponents, even though we're not the best at running in the air ourselves.

 

[Illuvial]

In a MK legal environment DDD can't be a top tier character. That MU is just so balls...

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I would like to know how you'd approach the MU and how it isn't a -3.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I would like to know how you'd approach the MU and how it isn't a -3.

Easy, just do what big D does and have a secondary of ice climbers.

Edit wasn't paying attention. Thought your question was how to handle mk not ice climbers. Whoops

 

[bubbaking]

Same deal, though.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

No, seriously.
How is it not -3? Don't be afraid to correct me, my opinion on could very well be very one-dimensional as to why it's -3 (my opinion is that DDD doesn't really have such a good keep-away game, he can't really camp (or at least, not very well, seeing as you could easily PS and shrug off Waddle Pets) and he's such a huge pos.

 

[bubbaking]

That's the point. Many of us DO believe the MU is -3. It is one of the MUs that will be discussed for the future MU chart.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

It may be a -2 but doesn't seem like it would go better than that though. That ddd's worst matchups are basically the two best characters in the game sucks.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

bubba are you a MK main, or a DDD main?

 

[bubbaking]

I'll leave that up to you to figure out.

 

[CourageHound]

From my little bit of MK experience, and from what I've seen, its really stage dependent. That doesnt change that fact that it's really bad and basically -3 on almost if not all CPs and mayybe -2 on some neutrals. However the more platforms MK has the better, I believe.

The kings' heavy reliance on catching mistakes and little room for error makes it so bad.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'll leave that up to you to figure out.

No, really. It should be blatantly obvious, but IIRC, you had the little icon pointing you were a MK main. But now we can't see them...Dx

 

[bubbaking]

ITT: People assuming that the post-bit char icons actually mean something.

 

[DewDaDash]

Guys, ive been having a problem lately. Ive been picking up MK and on the one hand, my mk has been spectacular, beating every ics I play in tourney, on the other hand, my d3 looks a bit sloppy since i dont practice him as much anymore. How should I get around this?

 

[ぱみゅ]

ITT: People assuming that the post-bit char icons actually mean something.

Or so you would think.

Guys, ive been having a problem lately. Ive been picking up MK and on the one hand, my mk has been spectacular, beating every ics I play in tourney, on the other hand, my d3 looks a bit sloppy since i dont practice him as much anymore. How should I get around this?

Keep using MK for few select matchups so you don't lose DDD practice?
Honestly, once you changed MK there is no turn back, he requires a lot of effort and cosntant practice to keep the Techskill on point... Everything else feels waaaaay too slow...

 

[DewDaDash]

Or so you would think.

Keep using MK for few select matchups so you don't lose DDD practice?
Honestly, once you changed MK there is no turn back, he requires a lot of effort and cosntant practice to keep the Techskill on point... Everything else feels waaaaay too slow...

Ive been doing that, I dont have much trouble going from d3 to mk, the other way around though feels a bit rough.

 

[CourageHound]

Guys, ive been having a problem lately. Ive been picking up MK and on the one hand, my mk has been spectacular, beating every ics I play in tourney, on the other hand, my d3 looks a bit sloppy since i dont practice him as much anymore. How should I get around this?

I'm assuming you picked up MK for the sole purpose of countered bad MUs like ICs but still wanna your DDD fresh. In that case I would just limit MK use for top tier characters that counter DDD, and use DDD for everything else. To get back into the swing of D3 i'd get a buddy and have him let you practice tech chasing him for a bit. Them have some matches.

However if you picked up MK as a solid secondary or co-main then it a bit more difficult to say(Since I'm not exactly sure how difficult the transition is for you) but all I can really say is practice both characters alot.

 

[DewDaDash]

I picked up mk to beat ics as well as eventually beat mk dittos once i figure that out more. Havent tried mk dittos in tourney yet so ill let u know how that goes later on. But yea Mk is now my solid secondary.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

ITT: People assuming that the post-bit char icons actually mean something.

Well, uh...I don't really see the point of listing MK otherwise if he isn't your main. I'd understand if it'd be for comedic purposes, but that wouldn't cause a reaction out of me, either way. Now, if it were someone like Captain Falco who's so terrible it's actually funny, then yeah.

EDIT: How about is the MK MU for us, exactly? I'm given to understand that we can't approach the dude...or really do anything about him. Why? Sorry, but I'm curious because I do pretty well against MKs here, granted they don't know the MU against DDD, but...curious.

 

[Exdeath]

Ive been doing that, I dont have much trouble going from d3 to mk, the other way around though feels a bit rough.

I don't know if it will be the same for you, but generally either my or my is playing well and then the other one will play sloppy so I just base who I use on how I'm playing with each character. If you're considering switching fully to (something that I would recommend for pretty much every if possible haha) then just work on your . Otherwise you just need to consider how much time you have for practice, how many match-ups you'll use each character for, and then divvy out the practice time in accordance with that (e.g. if you have 9 relevant MUs and you'll be using in 2 of those then you'll practice for ~13 minutes of every hour that you practice).

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

EDIT: How about is the MK MU for us, exactly? I'm given to understand that we can't approach the dude...or really do anything about him. Why? Sorry, but I'm curious because I do pretty well against MKs here, granted they don't know the MU against DDD, but...curious.

It's terrible, basically. All Metaknight needs to do is two things:

1. Know Dedede. It actually doesn't take a lot to figure out the various nuances that Dedede has to formulate where and when you can do things. Dedede beating someone is because of one of few reasons: The character is low tier (save for a few exceptions) or the other person doesn't know what they're doing.

2. Use regular pressure tools to get Dedede into the air, proceed to use aerials and Nado/Shuttle Loop. Once Dedede's offstage, he's ****ed, even more so then when he's on the ground (which is out best position, and we're STILL ****ed) MK should be keeping you off stage for very long amounts of time once you're off.

 

[bubbaking]

3. Use Tornado generously. It can't be beaten out by anything other than utilt or a perfectly spaced grab. DDD is large and falls fast, so the move will probably stab his shield, and if it hits, he will have incredible trouble getting out. Once it's landed, DDD's sent upwards in a prime position to be juggled for days by uair, more 'nados, and even utilt. Even if we manage to perfectly shield the move, MK can get away pretty far too fast for us to reliably punish it.

Well, uh...I don't really see the point of listing MK otherwise if he isn't your main. I'd understand if it'd be for comedic purposes, but that wouldn't cause a reaction out of me, either way. Now, if it were someone like Captain Falco who's so terrible it's actually funny, then yeah.

ITT: People care about the post-bit char icons.

If you really must know, my first main was MK and he's still one of my favorite characters in Brawl. Unlike most MK mains, I chose MK as my main before the game came out, during the days of the numerous Brawl Dojo updates. I have a thing for Dreamland chars in Smash as I now main DDD in Brawl, and my LT main in Melee is Kirby.

 

[ぱみゅ]

[color= #804ab9]Unlike most MK mains, I picked MK for being fast. I "mastered" him on Balanced Brawl and tried to export that to the regular game.
And Shuttle Loop gimps still feel lame.


*INSERT MY SIG HERE*[/color]