dash grab/jc grab vs cc'ers

[Hax]

sheik and puff are potentially the worst of falcon's 25 bad matchups, and with the latter being amazingly popular in high level play i'm desperate to discover tips regarding beating her.

crouch cancelling is the bane of falcon's existence and puff/sheik happen to have some of the lowest in the game. i was wondering if anyone knows more about dash grabbing/jc grabbing them while they're crouch cancelling, please contribute. i've noticed in training that both grabs can catch cc'ing jiggs/sheiks, yet in real matches they don't work. perhaps dash grabbing can catch cc'ers from farther away? i don't have my controller on me right now so i can't practice.. does anyone know?

 

[TresChikon]

I think JC/standing grabs can only get a crouching Puff when you're standing REALLY close. Which is stupid.

 

[chaindude]

^ that and jiggs pops up once in a while into your grab range while crouching

 

[ArcNatural]

Yes unfortunately it's only after a certain period of time of CCing that you can grab them from CC I think. But I guess this could be Magus worthy to look at to let you know when and how you can grab these two characters with Falcon.

Hax, You should try implementing those odd waveland fall through platform stalls with bair that Kage does. Obviously Ganon ***** it with also having his fair and upair being really good for it, but I think Falcon's dair/bair could use another approaching tactic (and your Falcon *****).

Have you ever talked to Darkrain about Sheik? I think if you ever wanted advice about Sheik he would be the best Falcon to ask.

 

[legion598]

dunno I just Dair CC'rs it gets some damage in while having enough hitstun to avoid punishment, and of course at later % u can Dair>jab reset CC'rs. As for grabs I know that jiggz pops her head up after crouching a bit but its still not really a reliable grab, im not sure if the grab box in falcons body is low enough. I dunno ive been meaning to do some hardcore testing on this ill probly do it tonight. Or magus could read this thread

 

[P.C. Jona]

i hate jiggs and sheik too

jiggs being the worst by far

 

[Roneblaster]

magus420
10tryingtogettinmagusattention

 

[-MCT-]

At least Puff is satisfying to kill when you finally manage to grab her and land a Knee at kill %... I love the way it feels, maybe because she's just like a ball. Falcon... Field Goal!

 

[SDR]

I think JC/standing grabs can only get a crouching Puff when you're standing REALLY close. Which is stupid.

* Yea what he said *

 

[legion598]

It looks like u cant grab puff during her crouch at all. However if u Dair her while shes crouching and IMMEDIATELY grab it will land. If u Dair her crouch after around 30 tho she will smack into the ground and u can jab reset into alot of things. And later if she crouches a Dair it will pop her up into a knee even at higher % as long as she CCs it

as for shiek u can grab her crouch but u have to be really close at which point u will probably eat a Dsmash or worse. The Dair> grab still works tho and I think it will hit her out of Dsmash as long as u hit her middle

 

[P.C. Jona]

approaching with dair is a bad idea buddy

 

[ChivalRuse]

Since countering CC'ers with dair is out of the question, the only thing I can think of is preemptively throwing out SHFFL'ed knees. Not only does the knee not get CC'ed after like 20%, but if you knee someone out of a CC enough times, they eventually start ducking less often. It's a psychological thing.

Oh, and I think dash grab is better vs CC'ers. It has more range and can grab lower I believe. I'll test this out when I get a chance.

The risk is that if your grab gets spotdodged, Jiggs/Sheik has 10 more frames to punish your whiff.

 

[legion598]

Dairs not that bad as long as you have enough speed to cross up.
knee is a good idea as well tho it doesnt have as much follow up and can still be CC'd below 20 I tend to use both about the same.

 

[Roneblaster]

At least Puff is satisfying to kill when you finally manage to grab her and land a Knee at kill %... I love the way it feels, maybe because she's just like a ball. Falcon... Field Goal!

this and your avatar is amazing

 

[TheManaLord]

running up b theyll expect a legit grab but get dived instead

 

[ArcNatural]

Dairs not that bad as long as you have enough speed to cross up.
knee is a good idea as well tho it doesnt have as much follow up and can still be CC'd below 20 I tend to use both about the same.

It's bad because Sheik can easily react and beat dair with tilts. One of the worst positions to be in against Jiggs or Sheik is when they aerial your shield and just crouch there. You literally are screwed. They can react on any OoS option, Jiggs can only react on one roll but if she guesses right it's a rest, and Sheik can just dash attack or grab either roll. Any aerial you do they can just duck or hit you before the hit box comes out.

UpB is interesting though and could work to counter this if it can reach them crouching.

I think spacing bair on approach is better than knee on CC, but it's more easily seen coming since you have to be backwards. I think it trades ok against Sheik and Jiggs though.

 

[Scar]

At least Puff is satisfying to kill when you finally manage to grab her and land a Knee at kill %... I love the way it feels, maybe because she's just like a ball. Falcon... Field Goal!

ya except it doesn't even work half the time b/c there's so much pressure on you that she can downB when you're about to knee her and it kills you that you rush it and don't necessarily react properly to her DI

hax gqs in this thread

 

[legion598]

I guess u could always just do a falcon kick

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

dash grab can always grab sheik, but i thought that you can't grab jiggs if she's crouching. period. Basically if you want to grab her, you have to space out of something she does and grab her. Or hope she just ****s up. You CANNOT shield grab a crouching jiggs. You can't grab her right when she jumps either(because she crouches at the beginning of her jump), so if she jumps out of her shield and you try to grab her through her shield she easily punishes you.

What's awesome against crouching jiggs is reverse dsmash though. The front of the dsmash doesn't hit her, but the back does.

 

[Rubyiris]

I fail to see how a crouching puff can do ANYTHING to a properly spaced dair approach.

Prove me wrong, please.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I fail to see how a crouching puff can do ANYTHING to a properly spaced dair approach.

Prove me wrong, please.

Jiggs isn't going to just crouch there and wait for you to whiff an attack over her. She's going to be spacing her broken aerials, which always beat stomp.

 

[legion598]

so what ur saying is if the jiggz is crouching at the right times u cant Dair her. But this is assuming your fighting a competent jiggz but Ive seen average level jiggz just crouch thinking that I cant do anything about it. If a jiggs hit my shield and crouched to avoid the shield grab I think I would just jump out away since virtually all other options can be punished with rest . But ya im positive u cant grab jiggz in any way, the up B thing sounded interesting tho I might have to try that, probly doesnt work. But back to the Dait thing I was thinking u could DD and punish a whiffed aerial with a properly spaced Dair cuz the jiggz might be crouching after touching ground, not sure tho. but ya if that works the jigg is up! harhar har

 

[demodemo]

all this technical jargon hurts my brain

all i know is that sheiks crouch is really gay, and i can't approach her with anything but a dashdance grab

stupid stupid stupid

 

[Scar]

demo learn the jargon asap

just ask what **** is and someone might explain it to you

if they dont just ask again

 

[Mizar]

I guess you can't call her out right? Like faking a dair with a full jump? Im noob as **** so this probably sounds ********. Also, you edgeguard sweetspots with utilt hitbox right? Can you hit jiggs without getting rested? I know it will be hard to hit because you need to get somewhat close though. Anyway I will get out now cya later lol

 

[harriettheguy]

Maybe this situation should be avoided entirely; they're at an advantage, they're waiting for you, but I've never seen anyone stall a match out by ducking.

 

[tubes]

What about utilt.... LOL!

 

[legion598]

im gonna try falcon kick and see if they try to rest it and miss

 

[-WoMp-]

I'm not sure if this will work but what about shffl a knee at jiggs and low f-tilt afterwords. I'm pretty sure it hits at low percents if they are CC'ing, I just don't know if there are better options.

 

[Mizar]

What about utilt.... LOL!

Yeah, thought this was inevitable. I will let you pros alone now.

 

[skyheart]

Bairs are the secret to beating jiggs. if she camps with bairs all day. Do the same to her. if you play it smart you could get a stock lead, then just continue to camp with bairs. and never approach her. its gay but it seems like the best way to deal with jiggs and her gayness

 

[AnDaLe]

maybe, running upsmash?

 

[legion598]

that sounds interesting Ill probly try that but its probably too slow and will get Baired or Fsmashed. Im probly just gonna run from crouched jiggz and DD camp. Im plotting against you anthony

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

maybe, running upsmash?

jiggs wi.ll just take it. You can CC uner the second hit of the usmash, and even if you hit with that at low percents she'll just cc both hits and rest you.

 

[Hax]

what skyheart said. all i do is bair jiggs, up until ~100% when it finally kills her. i never go for the grab anymore.

 

[skyheart]

just keep being a good brat

<3

rainbow

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

lol wendel

yeah, bair camp all dai.

 

[Juggleguy]

I'm really bad at bair camping.

Maybe it's because I watch my own character too much in comparison with the opponent's character. Bad habit