DAD's SMASH LAB UPDATED 1/22 - Wizard Kick Canceling 101; "Z1gman Comboing"!!!

[hyperstation]

Just a thought but would this combo be possible with a DAir start up?

As in DAir -> Tipman -> Whatever follow up. As I recall a DAir to a Tipman is always a guaranteed trip so maybe you could get more damage and stun that way?

This is Blad's bouncing combo. I'm sure it would work, and is certainly something to look for in context, but the overall problem with Blad's bouncing combo is that the Tipman can be avoided after the DAir connects. Not a bad thought, though.

 

[Z1GMA]

Nice to see you in here, Blad. Where have you bin?

 

[Blad01]

Nice to see you in here, Blad. Where have you bin?

I'm a bit busy with my exams, sorry :x By the way, i have to go haha.

Anyways, very nice work DAD (because apparently we don't call you hyperstation around here ), i will work on adding that to my game

[EDIT : Boucing Combo to ZIGMA's Edgeguard / Comboing ? :o Defintly something to try, but maybe the opponent would grab the ledge... Since he's laying on the floor. :s I don't know, i will try that out today if I can ^^]

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm looking for ways to get the opponent near/at the ledge..

Blad's "Blady bounce" to bounce them closer to the ledge if they are fairly close already; then while they're in their forced fet up-lag (now at/by the ledge) you perform the Tipman>Dair
(Is this what you just mentioned, Blad?)

Also if you break your opponents shield at (to low to KO %'s) you can push them closer to the ledge, and then nail them with this.

 

[hyperstation]

Z1gma, whenever I'm on wifi waiting for a match to start, I love to just tipper the Sandbag over and over again with BDCed UAirs. That is, Ganon is facing left with the Sandbag behind him. UAir -> left Buffered Dash Cancel -> UAir w/ DI right -> left BDC -> UAir w/ DI right.... So ultimately I'm moving right, but I'm spacing myself with the left BDCs so that I'm not as vulnerable. The idea I suppose is to use this sequence to push the opponent towards the ledge. I'm saying maybe 2-3 tippers including the one that causes them to fall seems viable.

I've been experimenting with some really cool stuff that I mentioned before regarding BDCed Air Dodges and Spot dodging and sh*t in conjunction with your combo. Once I have some time, it'll all make sense.

 

[Finns7]

^ the sandbag **** disease I have it too ^^

 

[Z1GMA]

I've been experimenting with some really cool stuff that I mentioned before regarding BDCed Air Dodges and Spot dodging and sh*t in conjunction with your combo. Once I have some time, it'll all make sense.

Sounds cool. Are you planning on making a clip of you performing it?

 

[hyperstation]

Sounds cool. Are you planning on making a clip of you performing it?

I think it'll all be covered in my next vid which is mostly about Spot Dodging. Towards the end of the vid I'm gonna show some clips stuff that bring it all together.

 

[Swoops]

Yesssh, just found a broken maneuver.

On Corneria, if you get someone who you can hit with standing tipman against the bottom of the fin at like above...190%...you can INFINITE them with tipman.

...okay so not groundbreaking but it's fun as hell to do.

Also on an actual related note I've been working on the "zigman" combos by the edge. It'll probably work pretty well for everybody as they're recovering from hanging...fairly applicable there.

 

[hyperstation]

Also on an actual related note I've been working on the "zigman" combos by the edge. It'll probably work pretty well for everybody as they're recovering from hanging...fairly applicable there.

Dig this:

Moving (for instance) right, BDCed Air Dodge -> tap left just before you land (buffer it) so you're standing with your back facing the right ledge when you land -> Z1gman combo. Needs video to explain. I've been figuring out a handful of ways to (realistically) set up the Z1gman combo.

 

[Doopliss_Swe]

Btw, I just did a flipman with the bair... not as useful, but was it known it was possible (Yes, i'm sure I landed without lag )?

Btw, just had an idea, but i'm not skilled enough to test it. Maybe you could use iDJ from the ledge, and do flight of ganon out of it? I guess it would require 2 jump inputs in a 2 frame window, but I can't see why it wouldn't be possible...

EDIT: On 2nd thought, it seems that if you do the wizkick too fast after the iDJ, you just suicide...but i'm not 100% certain about it though...

 

[Z1GMA]

Btw, I just did a flipman with the bair... not as useful, but was it known it was possible (Yes, i'm sure I landed without lag )?

Already known.. And like you said, it's not very useful.

 

[hyperstation]

Btw, just had an idea, but i'm not skilled enough to test it. Maybe you could use iDJ from the ledge, and do flight of ganon out of it? I guess it would require 2 jump inputs in a 2 frame window, but I can't see why it wouldn't be possible...

EDIT: On 2nd thought, it seems that if you do the wizkick too fast after the iDJ, you just suicide...but i'm not 100% certain about it though...

Did you read the whole write up on iDJ? I have performed it like this: Ledge Hop -> iDJ Air Dodge DIed IN -> FoG. The timing isn't that intuitive though.

 

[Doopliss_Swe]

Oh, I must have missed that part XD I meant without airdodging inbetween though, it would've been beautiful if you could do it right of the ledge </3

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yesssh, just found a broken maneuver.

On Corneria, if you get someone who you can hit with standing tipman against the bottom of the fin at like above...190%...you can INFINITE them with tipman.

...okay so not groundbreaking but it's fun as hell to do.

Also on an actual related note I've been working on the "zigman" combos by the edge. It'll probably work pretty well for everybody as they're recovering from hanging...fairly applicable there.

That's possible on almost any stage with a corner, and at (possibly) 80% +.

 

[Swoops]

That's possible on almost any stage with a corner, and at (possibly) 80% +.

Trust me, not 80%+ at all. You have to have them at really high percents for it to be a true infinite.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Trust me, not 80%+ at all. You have to have them at really high percents for it to be a true infinite.

You must buffer them.

 

[Z1GMA]

What I like about Utilt:

*Triggers couter moves, such as Marth's.
****** Charizzard when he's using Rock smash.
*"Utilt surfin". DAD~
* Vs Ike's recovery.

And, I just did some testing. (probably common knowledge)
*The sucktion alone, renews stale moves.
So, a failed Utilt-edgeguard isn't a total waste after all : )... Or any falied Utilt for that matter.
Just don't get punished.

C'mon people.. Brainstorm!

 

[hyperstation]

Hey dudes,

Listen, I'm heading out of town until the 19th of Feb. I'm going down to Nicaragua to help build houses and paint some murals. I wanted to let everyone know that I haven't abandoned you.

I also want to give an update on my success with all the sh*t I've been posting in DSL.

BDCed Air Dodge -> Buffered Spot Dodge or Buffered Shield is AMAZING. If you haven't started using this, LEARN IT. My match-ups with MOM (Samus) have been changing drastically because of it. You can go through literally walls of projectile spam with correct timing. I LOVE THIS TECHNIQUE, and I can't say that enough.

BDCed UAirs and BAirs in sequence are terrifying. I don't BDC UAir across the stage often, but you can use the slide of the BDC to space your UAirs especially intelligently. Very hard to do well on WiFi, but awesome IRL.

Ledge Hop -> iDJ Edge Guarding with DAir, BAir, UAir, FAir (risky sometimes), or NAir RULES. If you're not doing this, learn it. You will get yourself into positions to make kills SAFELY that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get to.

Ledge Hop -> iDJ Air Dodge/UAir/BAir onto stage is AWESOME. You can essentially negate your RCO lag if you connect with a UAir BAir or Nair that spaces your opponent far enough away that the 16 RCO lag frames are negligible.

Also, if you're not WKing and WKCing ALLLLLL over the f*cking place near the ledge, your Ganon isn't bangin' on all cylinders. Via WK and WCK, he is granted the very unique ability to get himself into gimp/kill/stage spike position quickly and effectively. Watch my vid again so that you know ALL your options, and GET YR SPACING RIGHT.

Consider this an update. These are some the realistic applications (that seem to be working WELL) of the theoretical ideas I presented so far. So get to work on them and your Ganon WILL see vast improvements. Side note: I plan to get vids of me uploaded soon after I return so that you guys might see how I'm using this sh*t. I realize there are very few videos of me online, and I intend to change that.

Finally, a request. It would be AWESOME if by the time I came back there were pages of new discussion regarding the information I've shown. The discussion thus far has been good, but not exactly exhaustive. It makes me wonder if you guys are employing these techniques or not, and I believe that if you're not, you're missing out. There's a lot of Ganon playing going on right now with GANONGASM, so you guys should take note of any really interesting usage of the things contained in DSL in addition to other new findings and post them here. I'd love to sort through some new ideas when I get home.

Take care dudes,

<3 DAD

PS - Mods- can I get a sticky on this?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

What I like about Utilt:

*Triggers couter moves, such as Marth's.
****** Charizzard when he's using Rock smash.
*"Utilt surfin". DAD~
* Vs Ike's recovery.

And, I just did some testing. (probably common knowledge)
*The sucktion alone renews stale moves.
So, a failed Utilt-edgeguard isn't a total waste after all : )... Or any falied Utilt fort hat matter.
Just don't get punished.

C'mon people.. Brainstorm!

Are you serious about that? Does UTilt really renew staled moves?

 

[Anomilus]

That makes sense, considering the way UTilt works. Darn it, people try to tell me I'm using UTilt too much and should stop, but seems I should be Murdering them and going UTilt crazy! >=/

 

[:034:]

Makes sense, G&W's uair wind effect also refreshes moves.

 

[Z1GMA]

Are you serious about that? Does UTilt really renew staled moves?

Yup!

Spoiler

*Filling space*

 

[hyperstation]

So, in summary, after every kill you get, you should try to get in 2 or 3 Utilts before your opponent respawns. IF this is true then you'll be able to renew up to 1/3 of your stale moves list with 3 Utilts. If there is any terrain in which you can cancel the utilt (pokemon stadium) then you might be able to get in a few more. This notion of Utilt after killing should become common practice, and also will now be considered a taunt. He's stretching out his legs for the next kill. It's yogic meditation sh*t.

 

[:034:]

I think DAD needs another lesson on stale move refreshing. >_> You can only refresh moves if you hit your opponent. P:

You'll have to get to some breakable terrain for a tactic like that to work... Smashville's balloons... Castle Siege's statues... Stuff like that.

 

[hyperstation]

I think DAD needs another lesson on stale move refreshing. >_> You can only refresh moves if you hit your opponent. P:

You'll have to get to some breakable terrain for a tactic like that to work... Smashville's balloons... Castle Siege's statues... Stuff like that.

Don't patronize me, Dutchman.

What was written by Z1gma above was anything but definitive and clear. No sh*t: moves need to connect in order to affect your stale move negation, but Utilt has wind properties that only a couple other moves in the game have. If Z1gma could clarify his statement, then we'd better understand, but don't come into my thread in which I'm teaching all you schlubs a bunch of techniques that are going to advance yr Ganons and pretend like I need a lesson in something as basic as stale move negation. It wouldn't surprise me if Utilt is somewhat of an anomaly, and it likewise wouldn't surprise me if my assertion above was incorrect.

Another idea: if the wind indeed needs to connect, in 2v2s you could use your opponent as a dummy and pull them in just for a second and then they could jump out of the hit box.

Z1gma, clarification please.

 

[:034:]

*patronizes for the lulz*

 

[hyperstation]

*patronizes for the lulz*

You MOTHERF*CKER. lol.

I <3 Dutchman

Everyone, please reread this post if you haven't already:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6594403&postcount=139

THX DAD

 

[Z1GMA]

Ok... My bad, I guess..

The wind of the Utilt has to connect, or just scratch your opponent.
It doesn't matter if they're in the wind for just a 1/10 sec, or 2 entire seconds; It still just counts as
"1 hit"
Also, if they are hit by both the wind AND the explosion, it still counts as "1 hit" (1 input)

If you catch them with the wind while they are already shielding, they WILL get hit by either the wind OR the explosion.. Cause if they roll away they will get "winded" in the roll-lag at the start of the roll-animation.
_____________________________________________

It'd be cool if a stupid opponent repeatedly keept canceling your Utilt within range of it, without knowing that Ganon's Moves are getting fresher and fresher.
Well, sure, the opponents moves gets renewed as well.
But who has the strongest KO-moves? That would be Ganon, in most of the cases.
^This idea is VERY stupid. Don't even TRY to rely on it in any situation.
I was just beeing creative.. lulz

 

[:034:]

There's just one trend though: everybody knows that when you come back from a kill, your moves are at their top power, right? You can only refresh your moves to a level underneath that, unless you kill yourself. Dash Attack is extra affected by this, a "Level 10" DA is much more powerful than a "Level 9", so to say.

Although ftilt and dair are much less affected by this, and fsmash pretty much always kills, so it's not that much trouble. I'd have to do more testing...

 

[hyperstation]

Hey dudes,

Though I don't mind a Utilt discussion happening in DSL, I'd prefer if the discussion here pertained to techniques I've already shown in the OP or techniques that you believe SHOULD be discussed in a new section of the OP. I'm not trying to be a Nazi seeing how this Utilt discussion is already proving to be fruitful, but I believe that the MYTHBUSTAZ thread might be a better location to continue this discussion.

I'll take a minute to add some of the salient information of this Utilt discussion to the MYTHBUSTAZ thread and perhaps we could continue this there. I had already planned to do a write up of sorts on how Utilt can be used consistently, safely, and effectively in that thread, but I have no intention of discussion UTilt here, unless we find some more advanced breakthrough in its usage.

Thanks, guys. Keep up the good work.

 

[:034:]

Okay, one thing I WANT in the OP is an update on pummeling.

Grabbing your opponent and pummeling them is always useful, but I've heard complaints about Ganondorf's pummel being... slow. It's not. I'm not sure how many of you already know this, I've spoken to Koskinator about this and he didn't seem to know. But, pummeling has easily abusable IASA FRAMES.

When the knee hits, you can initiate another pummel. And then, when that knee hits, another. Sound slow? ***** please, I can get 3 to 4 pummels in around the 50% area rather than 1 to 2.

It has a certain rhythm to it... Just go to training mode, put your opponent at 300% and try to find the timing. It's rather easy.

...Thinking of it, this could've gone in the MYTHBUSTA thread as well, but this is still a good tidbit of information.

 

[hyperstation]

Okay, one thing I WANT in the OP is an update on pummeling.

Grabbing your opponent and pummeling them is always useful, but I've heard complaints about Ganondorf's pummel being... slow. It's not. I'm not sure how many of you already know this, I've spoken to Koskinator about this and he didn't seem to know. But, pummeling has easily abusable IASA FRAMES.

When the knee hits, you can initiate another pummel. And then, when that knee hits, another. Sound slow? ***** please, I can get 3 to 4 pummels in around the 50% area rather than 1 to 2.

It has a certain rhythm to it... Just go to training mode, put your opponent at 300% and try to find the timing. It's rather easy.

...Thinking of it, this could've gone in the MYTHBUSTA thread as well, but this is still a good tidbit of information.

Nicely done, FD, but as you said, this is a MYTHBUSTA topic. I'm a HUGE purveyor of pummeling and I have it down to a science. That said, I had no idea that Ganon's pummel had IASA frames! Is this kind of like how Samus can do hyper speed b*tch slapping? Note: when Samus b*tch slaps super fast, she doesn't get a refreshed slot on her stale move list for EACH slap. I'm not sure of the specifics as I am just relaying information from MOM as I can best remember it, but I'd really appreciate it if you could look into this, FD. Nice find though. Upon corroboration of this information, I'll be sure to add this information to the MYTHBUSTA thread. Please continue the pummel discussion there. DSL is for metagame advancing ATs and exceedingly bizarre/interesting techniques that I and other top Ganon mains (including yourself) find suitable for exhaustive discussion. This pummel discovery, while very exciting, doesn't fall into that category IMO. However, like I've said in the past, DSL is also all about brainstorming and informational GANGBANG. It's not like it's WRONG to post this information here, it's just better suited for the MYTHBUSTA thread or a thread of its own.

 

[:034:]

Nicely done, FD, but as you said, this is a MYTHBUSTA topic. I'm a HUGE purveyor of pummeling and I have it down to a science. That said, I had no idea that Ganon's pummel had IASA frames! Is this kind of like how Samus can do hyper speed b*tch slapping? Note: when Samus b*tch slaps super fast, she doesn't get a refreshed slot on her stale move list for EACH slap. I'm not sure of the specifics as I am just relaying information from MOM as I can best remember it, but I'd really appreciate it if you could look into this, FD. Nice find though. Upon corroboration of this information, I'll be sure to add this information to the MYTHBUSTA thread. Please continue the pummel discussion there. DSL is for metagame advancing ATs and exceedingly bizarre/interesting techniques that I and other top Ganon mains (including yourself) find suitable for exhaustive discussion. This pummel discovery, while very exciting, doesn't fall into that category IMO. However, like I've said in the past, DSL is also all about brainstorming and informational GANGBANG. It's not like it's WRONG to post this information here, it's just better suited for the MYTHBUSTA thread or a thread of its own.

I didn't feel like it was good enough for it's own thread, but I'll continue this in the MYTHBUSTA thread.

 

[Z1GMA]

DSL is also all about brainstorming and informational GANGBANG

There should be a thread named "DAD's garage" for us to brainstorm >_>'

 

[hyperstation]

There should be a thread named "DAD's garage" for us to brainstorm >_>'

DAD's CLUB HOUSE. lol.

Nah, I think that both DSL and MYTHBUSTA serve as brainstorming sessions. It doesn't matter to me if information appears in DSL that ultimately belongs somewhere else. We can easily move discussions. MYTHBUSTA is a very free-form topic and can be about pretty much anything. DSL is likewise meant to be a torrent of information, but the caliber of information should be consistently higher than other threads, and the discussion should follow suit.

 

[Renth]

Hey Dad play any interesting matches at CoT4?

 

[Swoops]

When the knee hits, you can initiate another pummel. And then, when that knee hits, another. Sound slow? ***** please, I can get 3 to 4 pummels in around the 50% area rather than 1 to 2.

It's actually not when the knee hits, but pretty much right when Ganon's foot touches the ground. I just started messing around with it now that you mentioned it and that's the fastest method I can find.

Also, I'm starting to mostly mess around with BDC airdodging after d-throw (I think someone mentioned it earlier.) It's a pretty solid movement to place you in the right position for any follow up, and avoiding any immediate counters. Most of the BDC air dodging I'm using is for placement, sort a quick delay of invulnerability to think and position my attack, maybe make them whiff an aerial for me to get in a better position for tipman, f-air, or stomp. Problem with it is always the vulnerability at the bottom, so it's far from a abusable technique. It's mostly something that should be used for the occasional spacing.

As for spot dodge stuff, I know you've been doing quite a bit of research on it DAD but...Ganon's spot dodge is utter garbage. It's pretty hard to integrate successfully with moves, even with BDC air dodge, against good players. Some of the only benefit I've found is surprising people after a far away spot dodge and extending the reach of my f-smash to crazy lengths...spot dodge helps with that.

 

[Cervance]

I'm pretty sure this is already well known as part of the FoG glitch, but you can buffer a 'triple' jump out of a SH -> airdodge if you can get the timing right, and I see a lot of potential for this technique. There's nothing on it here and the tech is one of the reccomended discussions so I thought I'd bring it up.

I'm tuning in the timing for the tech this week and plan on trying it offline for more than a few hours for a tourney on the 28th. I'll get back you on the usefulness of this after that. (Yes! I'm taking Ganon ((and only Ganon)) to a tourney, woo!)

I've figured out already the timing is way to strict to do it out of a whim if you're falling or online, but it offers another big mindgame option for Ganon's airials.

EDIT: I just read DAD's analysis of the glitch and all the other ISJR stuff... I'm a little sad I'm weeks behind in all this, but I'll work with it and find ways for it to be useful.

This needs a section in the Smash Lab, it's a big thing that could affect Ganon's game big time.

 

[stRIP]

I'm pretty sure this is already well known as part of the FoG glitch, but you can buffer a 'triple' jump out of a SH -> airdodge if you can get the timing right, and I see a lot of potential for this technique. There's nothing on it here and the tech is one of the reccomended discussions so I thought I'd bring it up.

I'm tuning in the timing for the tech this week and plan on trying it offline for more than a few hours for a tourney on the 28th. I'll get back you on the usefulness of this after that. (Yes! I'm taking Ganon ((and only Ganon)) to a tourney, woo!)

I've figured out already the timing is way to strict to do it out of a whim if you're falling or online, but it offers another big mindgame option for Ganon's airials.

EDIT: I just read DAD's analysis of the glitch and all the other ISJR stuff... I'm a little sad I'm weeks behind in all this, but I'll work with it and find ways for it to be useful.

This needs a section in the Smash Lab, it's a big thing that could affect Ganon's game big time.

You should better get a second vs Shiek, Falco and IC mains. Your TOTALLY ****ed vs them