-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Da Wolf Pack - Q&A/GD
- Thread starter SinisterB
- Start date
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
will be making a thread soonish
i know you love this move scythe
i know you love this move scythe
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Whoever thought of that move has earned my admiration.will be making a thread soonish
i know you love this move scythe
Twin Moon Claw Swipes FTW!
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
It's easier than SWD'ing with Samus, and a few mofos got that down pretty consistent (after several years =P). People like SW and Eggz (I like Eggz more than Eggm for no reason) already can probably do it for Fox relatively consistent (I think it's already a thing right? Double shine to Up-smashing Peaches/Falcos in a few combo videos I watched?). In terms of Double shine difficulty from number of jump start frames Fox has it the hardest, then Wolf, then Falco.
I use to just use A for the Up-smash, but recently I found C-stick a little better. It's easy enough if you're already good at Double shining (depending on your method though, aren't you good at it?). Hitting the person/their shield also "theoretically" makes it easier because of the slower input timing from the Hitlag.
old example of it in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gneB40sAu2g
Here's my first attempt (no buffer), I got three almost in a row, that's usually been my peak until I put more time into it.
http://youtu.be/HrjgqNH5aUg
I use to just use A for the Up-smash, but recently I found C-stick a little better. It's easy enough if you're already good at Double shining (depending on your method though, aren't you good at it?). Hitting the person/their shield also "theoretically" makes it easier because of the slower input timing from the Hitlag.
old example of it in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gneB40sAu2g
Here's my first attempt (no buffer), I got three almost in a row, that's usually been my peak until I put more time into it.
http://youtu.be/HrjgqNH5aUg
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
yeah its unfrotunate that a lot of threads become relatively dead after awhile. anyways i absolutely love wolfs upsmash. by far his most useful smash attack imo. it can be used as a combo starter against fastfallers or a combo continuer, as you can DACUS out of many of your throws to connect with it. it can be used as a great tech chase options because of its coverage. and it can also be used as a great killer. if your sour spot fair fastfallers, you can charge up an upsmash for a near guarenteed kill not too much past 100%, DI dependent. its practically a definite kill if its on a platform at those percents. also, has anybody tried using his autocanceled aerials for quick attacks? i find autocancelled bairs to be a great defensive and overwhelming wall due to the range and speed of the attack.
Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
wolf's upsmash is hells underrated but it's not better than his fmash or dmash which both kill spacies at low percents and spacies are his hardest matchups.
auto-cancel aerials are always good
edit: problem with upsmash is that it's slow to come out in comparison to most smashes. Fox's is like 3 times faster
auto-cancel aerials are always good
edit: problem with upsmash is that it's slow to come out in comparison to most smashes. Fox's is like 3 times faster
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
i think it has more use though than his dsmash or fsmash. fsmash is great for tech chasing and runnning down opponents to hit them off the edge. dsmash is great defensively due to its range and is good for killing on the edge as well. upsmash certainly isnt a panic move like those two can be (due to its start up like you said), but it has far more use in combos and racking damage, and providing area coverage in general. on floatier characters, its much better at killing then dsmash or fsmash (kills mario on FD uncharged at like under 95 percent) whereas his other smashes need to be at like 115 percent for dsmash, and somewhere around 130 140 for fsmash. as far as spacees go, i would argue that falco is a hard MU for him, but not fox. wolfs blaster really puts a dent into any form of baiting and punishing fox do, and can shut down his approach reliably. you also combo fox hard, and he really cant combo you. additionally wolfs overall mobility is much better. with falco, his quicker projectile is the main issue, and he also combos you light years longer than anything fox can do. but regardless, i find myself using upsmash more often than the other two, but that is just because it fits into his combo game so well and is great for covering opponents roll options, and is also very safe on shield. his smash attacks definitely dont have interchangeable uses though, so there are situations where ill agree the others are better. in terms of killing, i think its character dependent which smash attack is more useful.
Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
dude play against a real fox or something, that matchup is down right brutal. He doesn't even have to work for combos. up smash combos wolf at all percents. Fox also beats wolf in every situation and is so fast that lasers don't help as much as in other matchups.
Also upsmash doesn't combo THAT good, since away DI can get spacies out, there's a decent amount of lag after upsmash as well. Uptilt combos much much better in similar situaions. I find myself using upsmash for kills to punish lag such as fox does with his except it's not as fast. My main use for it is using it reverse as a semi spike edgeguard. (which I use liberally)
Also upsmash doesn't combo THAT good, since away DI can get spacies out, there's a decent amount of lag after upsmash as well. Uptilt combos much much better in similar situaions. I find myself using upsmash for kills to punish lag such as fox does with his except it's not as fast. My main use for it is using it reverse as a semi spike edgeguard. (which I use liberally)
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
ah im just gonna have to disagree on that. when blaster is used properly, it has great potential. but ive never seen anybody use it how i believe it should be. when you wavebounce with the blaster, your adding another degree of areas that you can WL to. when factoring in that you can use this off the ledge, on platforms, in combination with reverse wavebounces, and in full hops as well, it opens up a whole new feild of mobility options and defensive options for him. a well used blaster will be able to prevent fox from getting easy up smashes. when YOU land up smashes, the damage that results is going to far greater than what he can attain. also, fox isnt that much faster than wolf is, if the falco vs fox MU is considered even, then idk why the wolf fox MU wouldnt be at least that, when wolf can use his projectile to the same effect, is faster, more mobile, and more powerful. not that it is an easy MU obviously, but i defintely do not agree that wolf is disadvantageous against fox.
but regardless, ive made frequent good use out of upsmash during combos. it does have endlag, but in the right situations that effect is minimized. spacees can DI far left or right and get out of it at low percents, but that will just put them back into tech chase position, which (if they attempt to roll as far away as possible) can be covered again with his blaster. on floaties its definitely not a combo tool. ill agree that utilt works better in the same situations, but it has much less coverage, and if the opponent DIs properly they can avoid a utilt easily, where the usmash would have hit them. usmash also is very good on the edge for its reach and angle though, i will agree.
these are just what ive found from my experiences anyways. i have a friend who plays a good fox and ive been able to adapt pretty well with my wolf with the blaster being an integral part of that MU for me. im sure your experiences are slightly different then mine so we probably different sides of things.
but regardless, ive made frequent good use out of upsmash during combos. it does have endlag, but in the right situations that effect is minimized. spacees can DI far left or right and get out of it at low percents, but that will just put them back into tech chase position, which (if they attempt to roll as far away as possible) can be covered again with his blaster. on floaties its definitely not a combo tool. ill agree that utilt works better in the same situations, but it has much less coverage, and if the opponent DIs properly they can avoid a utilt easily, where the usmash would have hit them. usmash also is very good on the edge for its reach and angle though, i will agree.
these are just what ive found from my experiences anyways. i have a friend who plays a good fox and ive been able to adapt pretty well with my wolf with the blaster being an integral part of that MU for me. im sure your experiences are slightly different then mine so we probably different sides of things.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
who are you playing against g13? scythe is playing against kels, one of the best foxes in the midwest
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
well if you are looking for me to state a well known player that is going to prove to you that my word has some credibility, then unfortunately i cant do that. he has won melee tournaments locally in his area with fox, but he does not really have a reputation outside of that. despite that, it does not mean he isnt a good player. maybe not on kels' level for sure, but he still knows how to use his fox.
while im sure that sycthe is a very good player, it is only one persons standpoint. i cant disregard the possibility that his personal playstyle is just hard countered by the typical fox playstyle. i do not know scythe as a player however, so im not going to make hasty judgements. but even so, one person saying that fox is a difficult MU isnt the end all word, especially if the fox that he is playing is just simply a good player. peach vs. fox in melee is considered to be a hard MU for peach, yet i think any fox player would say that playing against armada is a truly difficult MU.
when looking at MUs, as i know you both know, you try to look at both characters at the top of their metagame. its an obvious fact that foxs game is very developed, and its clear that the wolf metagame is largely underdeveloped. granted theory crafting only takes you so far, but it also doesnt mean that anythings impossible. its also not fair to single out individual players as representations of MUs. based, on my experiences (taking into account that I am obviously not the best player in the world), what ive argued about wolf is what i believe. I do not have a large reputation, or a group of friends with a large enough reputation for you to probably take my word as seriously as you would otherwise, but im still going to discuss what i believe to be true to the best of my knowlege.
while im sure that sycthe is a very good player, it is only one persons standpoint. i cant disregard the possibility that his personal playstyle is just hard countered by the typical fox playstyle. i do not know scythe as a player however, so im not going to make hasty judgements. but even so, one person saying that fox is a difficult MU isnt the end all word, especially if the fox that he is playing is just simply a good player. peach vs. fox in melee is considered to be a hard MU for peach, yet i think any fox player would say that playing against armada is a truly difficult MU.
when looking at MUs, as i know you both know, you try to look at both characters at the top of their metagame. its an obvious fact that foxs game is very developed, and its clear that the wolf metagame is largely underdeveloped. granted theory crafting only takes you so far, but it also doesnt mean that anythings impossible. its also not fair to single out individual players as representations of MUs. based, on my experiences (taking into account that I am obviously not the best player in the world), what ive argued about wolf is what i believe. I do not have a large reputation, or a group of friends with a large enough reputation for you to probably take my word as seriously as you would otherwise, but im still going to discuss what i believe to be true to the best of my knowlege.
Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
so far your arguments for wolf against fox is that wolf combos fox and lasers can shut fox down but that's just how falco does against fox (better than wolf would do it too) and that matchup is not really considered falco's favor anymore and many believe it's in fox's favor. (i think it's 50/50). Then there's the whole thing in the fox/wolf matchup where none of wolf's aerials can match fox's nair or bair. Wolf will get stuffed or just lose trades all the time. Wolf is just a worse version of the other spacies, i'm not saying he's bad, he is most likely high tier just not on the broken level of fox and falco.
I'm glad someone is a little against laser use.
From day 1 (first match actually) I Power Shielded nearly every ZSS laser that came my way. The things are too slow. Wolf doesn't need to rely on lasers in any way, they're niche and specific tools that almost shouldn't be used in entire matches sometimes.
I can't remember where the talk of lining up Side-B's was, but Uair has been the most consistent and regular way of leading into Side-B once I worked with cancelling it enough. That wasn't mentioned in the discussion (that I noticed anyway) and should really be considered and worked with.
Wolf is fine, no worse than other spacies. Any character that fast, that kills that early, that has so many useful tools (some of the same) is never going to fall enough to be notably worse than them, for the same reasons really.
Project M is still a baby, and it will be obvious to everyone soon enough that Fox and Falco aren't the best characters in the game anymore.
From day 1 (first match actually) I Power Shielded nearly every ZSS laser that came my way. The things are too slow. Wolf doesn't need to rely on lasers in any way, they're niche and specific tools that almost shouldn't be used in entire matches sometimes.
I can't remember where the talk of lining up Side-B's was, but Uair has been the most consistent and regular way of leading into Side-B once I worked with cancelling it enough. That wasn't mentioned in the discussion (that I noticed anyway) and should really be considered and worked with.
Wolf is fine, no worse than other spacies. Any character that fast, that kills that early, that has so many useful tools (some of the same) is never going to fall enough to be notably worse than them, for the same reasons really.
Project M is still a baby, and it will be obvious to everyone soon enough that Fox and Falco aren't the best characters in the game anymore.
Magus420
Smash Master
On normal knockbacks (not a floor bounce like d-air) while not moving forward you have at worst about 18 frames to determine if they DIed outside of the side-b's angles or not and start the side-b (Jigglypuff in range of the low angle). On most it's around 20 for the low angle at its tightest (when they're sent low and into a low side-b. faster falling characters can go more vertical and still fall into a low angle one in hitstun but that allows more time). The amount of time you have goes up from there the higher on the side-b range they get out of hitstun or range at, the faster they fall, and when you're moving towards them. Falco can be up around 40 on more vertical KBs that leave them within range when getting out of hitstun. The endlag on midair u-air is 20-22 depending on if you hit in front or above to get an idea. I've felt back when I used him more it was usually possible to do side-b on reaction to them heading into its range with enough familiarity of identifying the flight paths of the characters as quickly as possible. Wolf had a lot more air mobility and a larger hitbox on it back then, but he also couldn't angle it and it had 1 more frame of startup in the air.
What he said.^
Side-B isn't going to kill things as early as 70% if you're using it strichly out of grounded Dairs, hence I quickly gravitated towards Shine>Flash. This alone is way too difficult and lead people to DI upwards, making it more reliable to Shine>Dair>Grounded Up-B/Dair tech-chases, or things like that.
These days, things like regular combo starter(Shine/SH Fair/Throws) > Jump Uair (leading to the edge of the stage) > DJ Uair (higher going off stage) > Side-B (further off stage) are granting kills, reliably, at all forms of DI, on every character, around the 60/70% mark without exception. Rarely does anyone live passed the 100% mark against my Wolf because of this, even those who have been studying the match-up against me.
This same stuff applies to characters like Lucas and Luigi, there are too many variables and options for ending stocks literally off any hit at any % to bother have someone live long. At first there were comments like 'It's amazing that I was in danger of dying from getting hit at the start of a stock', but the metagame will gravitate to that being the norm. The same applies to Falco, Pikachu, Marth, etc. Touch-of-death procedure-like processes develop. At first it's almost like death-balls, but that type of metagame is an essential step. You can't learn HOW to deal with death-balls, and THEN have the death-balls show up. The death-balling takes its toll first. This is the same reason the old Melee characters seem strong still, they have their death-balls in place already.
This isn't complex, or even difficult. It's just a way of looking at things.
I'm just using this Wolf Side-B thing as an example of the 'trial-and-error' phases I went through to go that direction. Hopefully that helps.
Look for weird things like that, natural things. As soon as you start doing something that seems 'optimal', you won't even notice it until you look back on it. They will come if you stay aware of how you're approaching the game, rather than how you're approaching IN the game.
Hope that makes sense.
Otherwise, yeah, Uair > Side-B rocks.
Side-B isn't going to kill things as early as 70% if you're using it strichly out of grounded Dairs, hence I quickly gravitated towards Shine>Flash. This alone is way too difficult and lead people to DI upwards, making it more reliable to Shine>Dair>Grounded Up-B/Dair tech-chases, or things like that.
These days, things like regular combo starter(Shine/SH Fair/Throws) > Jump Uair (leading to the edge of the stage) > DJ Uair (higher going off stage) > Side-B (further off stage) are granting kills, reliably, at all forms of DI, on every character, around the 60/70% mark without exception. Rarely does anyone live passed the 100% mark against my Wolf because of this, even those who have been studying the match-up against me.
This same stuff applies to characters like Lucas and Luigi, there are too many variables and options for ending stocks literally off any hit at any % to bother have someone live long. At first there were comments like 'It's amazing that I was in danger of dying from getting hit at the start of a stock', but the metagame will gravitate to that being the norm. The same applies to Falco, Pikachu, Marth, etc. Touch-of-death procedure-like processes develop. At first it's almost like death-balls, but that type of metagame is an essential step. You can't learn HOW to deal with death-balls, and THEN have the death-balls show up. The death-balling takes its toll first. This is the same reason the old Melee characters seem strong still, they have their death-balls in place already.
This isn't complex, or even difficult. It's just a way of looking at things.
I'm just using this Wolf Side-B thing as an example of the 'trial-and-error' phases I went through to go that direction. Hopefully that helps.
Look for weird things like that, natural things. As soon as you start doing something that seems 'optimal', you won't even notice it until you look back on it. They will come if you stay aware of how you're approaching the game, rather than how you're approaching IN the game.
Hope that makes sense.
Otherwise, yeah, Uair > Side-B rocks.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
I´m new to Wolf. Quick question: Is his dair a meteor or a spike?
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Meteor
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
That´s a very intelligent approach on the current situation. *Like*
I think there´s a ton of potetinal within shortened Side-Bs. You can mix up that stuff with the general Wolf juggeling game - if the enemy DIs too far away at low/mid% you just finish your combo with that powerful attack. I think this will work on most characters - maybe not on the light weights.
Also I love Wolfs shine. Onstage you can use it similar to Falcos shine - at low% you can kinda shinespike your opponent offstage like Fox. <3 Don´t know if that works on every character though.
Side-B is as Bread-and-Butter to Wolf play as Shine is.
Until someone is working on that unique quirk, they're just getting the hang of the character-specifics for him. The slow-start most solid players are getting at is due to how functional he is without it, and how natural Laser + Shine + Aerial stuff is already. It's been making people neglect it.
It should be rare for people to live (out-side of being edge-guarded) above that 75-100% area against Wolf. Until that's the case, work on that Side-B stuff.
It's epic amounts of fun too, probably feeling so lonely being left out aside from the occasional recovery or simpy B-Throw/Dair > Side-B stuff.
Best of luck with it, but try not to think of it in too many specific details (like what DI/% it works), this will be natural enough eventually, just like anything else you're already comfortable with.
Just do it when you can, at any angle anytime, and don't miss.
Until someone is working on that unique quirk, they're just getting the hang of the character-specifics for him. The slow-start most solid players are getting at is due to how functional he is without it, and how natural Laser + Shine + Aerial stuff is already. It's been making people neglect it.
It should be rare for people to live (out-side of being edge-guarded) above that 75-100% area against Wolf. Until that's the case, work on that Side-B stuff.
It's epic amounts of fun too, probably feeling so lonely being left out aside from the occasional recovery or simpy B-Throw/Dair > Side-B stuff.
Best of luck with it, but try not to think of it in too many specific details (like what DI/% it works), this will be natural enough eventually, just like anything else you're already comfortable with.
Just do it when you can, at any angle anytime, and don't miss.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
I watched vids of Chillin and Silent Wolf using Wolf. Are there any other Wolf players who are worth to be checked out?
I would say no. lol
I haven't seen anything from those 2 in a while (or others) but they're probably as good a choice as far as players who could showcase some cool stuff. They've probably progressed on a lot of good stuff since I last saw anything, but when I did see, they played like Melee space-animals with tools that didn't match Falco's, and suffered for it. Like everyone else.
What is it you're checking for? Do you understand the applications of Shine > Combo/Grab? Do you understand the applications of Laser approaches? Do you understand how to use Falcon-like aerial mobility in combos and tech-chasing? Do you understand Side-B and the abundant list of things he has that pop people in those rough angle-directions? Do you understand his options in recovery? Do you understand the application of his aerials, whether it's spacing or killing with Bair/Fair, continuing combos with Nair/Dair, Juggles Fair/Uair? Do you understand the applications of each of his 4 amazing throws?
There's no fancy science behind the character, and if you intellectually understand BnB Smash, you can pick up Wolf and do well. Look at those intricate things (listed above), one at a time even, and Wolf is one of the most BASIC characters to learn and develop with both short and long term.
Your best bet is to play and try applying a new thing into your game every time, or at the very least, fine-tuning something you want to get better at. After working on something a bit, move on. There's a LOT to work on and you likely don't want to get stuck. There's lots, but there's NOTHING complicated. Keep going. You got this.
In other news... mid-% combos into Ftilting the opponent off-stage puts them in very awkward positions to be edge-guarded. I've mentioned it before a long time ago, but I still like it.
I haven't seen anything from those 2 in a while (or others) but they're probably as good a choice as far as players who could showcase some cool stuff. They've probably progressed on a lot of good stuff since I last saw anything, but when I did see, they played like Melee space-animals with tools that didn't match Falco's, and suffered for it. Like everyone else.
What is it you're checking for? Do you understand the applications of Shine > Combo/Grab? Do you understand the applications of Laser approaches? Do you understand how to use Falcon-like aerial mobility in combos and tech-chasing? Do you understand Side-B and the abundant list of things he has that pop people in those rough angle-directions? Do you understand his options in recovery? Do you understand the application of his aerials, whether it's spacing or killing with Bair/Fair, continuing combos with Nair/Dair, Juggles Fair/Uair? Do you understand the applications of each of his 4 amazing throws?
There's no fancy science behind the character, and if you intellectually understand BnB Smash, you can pick up Wolf and do well. Look at those intricate things (listed above), one at a time even, and Wolf is one of the most BASIC characters to learn and develop with both short and long term.
Your best bet is to play and try applying a new thing into your game every time, or at the very least, fine-tuning something you want to get better at. After working on something a bit, move on. There's a LOT to work on and you likely don't want to get stuck. There's lots, but there's NOTHING complicated. Keep going. You got this.
In other news... mid-% combos into Ftilting the opponent off-stage puts them in very awkward positions to be edge-guarded. I've mentioned it before a long time ago, but I still like it.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
Thank you for the advices. I really appreciate that.
But since I´m an at least decent Falco/Fox main in Melee - I guess I kinda got what Wolf is about from the very beginning. Just like you said, if you know basic spacie stuff, you just pick Wolf and start playing good. I just like to watch "real" pros to get some inspiration about moves and stuff.
Right now I´m just playing CPUs to learn more about the character in general. Wolf should do the exact same things I want him to do. Too bad CPUs don´t know how to DI yet.
Don't worry about DI or things like that. Just be ready for any kind of DI, and play that way, regardless of where they DI. All your job is, is to make sure you're ready to do everything you'll ever need to do. Anything else is redundant when playing for the sake of improving, or anything like practicing in general.
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4486.html
That's your best bet if you're looking for 'what to do about moves and stuff'
The 'pros' took until 2.5b to catch up to my personal Month ONE, 2.1 'meta-game' and are for the most part, just as unaware and weak-minded as the next batch of people. Too often it's atributed to over-playing oneself into fluency in the game, and hence the majority of the PM meta-game as been a slug of people surviving on things that won't work in time. Wolf didn't change much from Day 1 2.1 to TODAY, but everyone is playing him differently THEN to NOW. Why wasn't everyone able to pick up on all of this almost immediately? NOTHING changed, but people are 'better' now.
Figure that out, and apply it to what you 'do', and you'll be more 'real' of a pro than anyone you'll ever meet.
Right now, you have all the tools you need, even some very deeply rooting mental volitional actions embedded into you from old-school Melee play. These will prove to be great tools for you if you insure that as you're growing, you'll catch them when you break out of them, and see them for what they are/how they got there/how you got them out/etc.
Then, you'll have a new-found awareness to simply sit back and go "AH-HA, there's a mental hinderance in myself! REMOVE!" over and over. Like a reset butto.
It's quite funny, in that if people didn't have Melee to begin with, Wolf players would have almost immediately turned to spacing Aerials, DD Grabbing, and playing a lot more like SHEIK than anything else. Waiting for a hole, whether it's a poke to follow up, or an attack on their shield to counter with, or a jump so they could approach easily...
And they would have been WAY better off.
Oh wells.
/end rant
Don't go with the motions.
ANY motions.
That's exactly how you DON'T do what you're 'wanting him to do' in any aspect of life.
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4486.html
That's your best bet if you're looking for 'what to do about moves and stuff'
The 'pros' took until 2.5b to catch up to my personal Month ONE, 2.1 'meta-game' and are for the most part, just as unaware and weak-minded as the next batch of people. Too often it's atributed to over-playing oneself into fluency in the game, and hence the majority of the PM meta-game as been a slug of people surviving on things that won't work in time. Wolf didn't change much from Day 1 2.1 to TODAY, but everyone is playing him differently THEN to NOW. Why wasn't everyone able to pick up on all of this almost immediately? NOTHING changed, but people are 'better' now.
Figure that out, and apply it to what you 'do', and you'll be more 'real' of a pro than anyone you'll ever meet.
Right now, you have all the tools you need, even some very deeply rooting mental volitional actions embedded into you from old-school Melee play. These will prove to be great tools for you if you insure that as you're growing, you'll catch them when you break out of them, and see them for what they are/how they got there/how you got them out/etc.
Then, you'll have a new-found awareness to simply sit back and go "AH-HA, there's a mental hinderance in myself! REMOVE!" over and over. Like a reset butto.
It's quite funny, in that if people didn't have Melee to begin with, Wolf players would have almost immediately turned to spacing Aerials, DD Grabbing, and playing a lot more like SHEIK than anything else. Waiting for a hole, whether it's a poke to follow up, or an attack on their shield to counter with, or a jump so they could approach easily...
And they would have been WAY better off.
Oh wells.
/end rant
Don't go with the motions.
ANY motions.
That's exactly how you DON'T do what you're 'wanting him to do' in any aspect of life.
Hello wolfs. I've been thinking about this for awhile and wanted to share a bit about lasering.
Earlier in this thread there was some sentiment that wolf's blaster isn't that great. However I think it's one of the best projectiles in the game. That it wins match-ups.
That's not to say it's without downside. Yes it is easy to powershield. That is one of it's big weaknesses. But the opponent can't powershield all the time. You can also space the laser so that if they powershield it stops before it hits you - it's short range works in your favor.
That aside, I see a lot of Wolfs locally and on youtube laser-ing wrong. That is not to say that I believe there is a right and a wrong way to do a thing - each way of lasering is it's own valid option. But rarely do I see players shooting the laser at the maximum speed or proficiency possible. Which may be souring their opinion of such an awesome tool.
First off, you can and should air dodge on frame 15. That's first possible frame wolf can air dodge from the laser. That's the baseline of lasering fast as ****.
As soon as you short hop, press dat B button.
Frames 1-4 = jumpsquat, Frame 5 = Neutral B. Super tight.
Next airdodge down as soon as that Blaster comes out.
This will give you a laser about the apex of wolfs jump. Yeah this one is high, but that's good. You're shooting them out as fast as possible.
The next step is to lower the shot while keeping the same Air Dodge Timing. This one's a little tricky as the fast fall timing feels a bit awkward. How i'm getting it is by using the Air Dodge down. Part of that motion is the Fast Fall input. So this way you kill two birds in one stone.
Doing this you get the perfect laser. Aka Shooting as fast as possible, Airdodging as soon as possible, and landing from the Airdodge as soon as possible. The timing is super strict, so I doubt that this will come easily or consistently.
You'll end up shooting lasers about as fast as Falco. Destruction.
What this is not:
Slow ass laser shots. You're not waiting to airdodge right before hitting the ground. You're not delaying the laser to get that super smooth wavedash. Nope this will look a little rough. But it will be fast.
Anyways, feel free to give me lots of praise and adoration for giving such great advice. Or inform me how you've been doing this forever and this is super duper old news. lol =p
Earlier in this thread there was some sentiment that wolf's blaster isn't that great. However I think it's one of the best projectiles in the game. That it wins match-ups.
That's not to say it's without downside. Yes it is easy to powershield. That is one of it's big weaknesses. But the opponent can't powershield all the time. You can also space the laser so that if they powershield it stops before it hits you - it's short range works in your favor.
That aside, I see a lot of Wolfs locally and on youtube laser-ing wrong. That is not to say that I believe there is a right and a wrong way to do a thing - each way of lasering is it's own valid option. But rarely do I see players shooting the laser at the maximum speed or proficiency possible. Which may be souring their opinion of such an awesome tool.
First off, you can and should air dodge on frame 15. That's first possible frame wolf can air dodge from the laser. That's the baseline of lasering fast as ****.
As soon as you short hop, press dat B button.
Frames 1-4 = jumpsquat, Frame 5 = Neutral B. Super tight.
Next airdodge down as soon as that Blaster comes out.
This will give you a laser about the apex of wolfs jump. Yeah this one is high, but that's good. You're shooting them out as fast as possible.
The next step is to lower the shot while keeping the same Air Dodge Timing. This one's a little tricky as the fast fall timing feels a bit awkward. How i'm getting it is by using the Air Dodge down. Part of that motion is the Fast Fall input. So this way you kill two birds in one stone.
Doing this you get the perfect laser. Aka Shooting as fast as possible, Airdodging as soon as possible, and landing from the Airdodge as soon as possible. The timing is super strict, so I doubt that this will come easily or consistently.
You'll end up shooting lasers about as fast as Falco. Destruction.
What this is not:
Slow ass laser shots. You're not waiting to airdodge right before hitting the ground. You're not delaying the laser to get that super smooth wavedash. Nope this will look a little rough. But it will be fast.
Anyways, feel free to give me lots of praise and adoration for giving such great advice. Or inform me how you've been doing this forever and this is super duper old news. lol =p
GMaster171
Smash Ace
Imo there is a difference between lasering fast and lasering effectively. Just because you can shoot a bunch of lasers quickly, doesn't mean they will all be useful. I try to focus more on placement of my lasers rather than speed, as you shouldn't really laser if you are risking them just running to punish your land anyway. Its still a neat thing, but again imo thought>speed
one note, Wolf gets the 10 frame lag on landing during an airdodge remember, meaning he gets around 3 every 2 seconds (the landing from first frame air dodge down is most likely 10 or so frames). his laser is still slower than Falco's
side-b still god like, shorten combos are god like.
one note, Wolf gets the 10 frame lag on landing during an airdodge remember, meaning he gets around 3 every 2 seconds (the landing from first frame air dodge down is most likely 10 or so frames). his laser is still slower than Falco's
side-b still god like, shorten combos are god like.
Shine's pretty good too if you want to quickly interrupt a low recovery. It's not gonna kill but you can scare 'em and do some damage.
I'm a pretty big fan of using UAir to offstage edgeguard. Depending on the recovery you can do it falling or rising.
Here's one of my Edgeguarding set-ups against Fox/Falco:
Low/Mid percent Dsmash, Run offstage, DJ Uair
This covers their jump back sideB recovery. You can start it from a Bthrow/Dthrow/FThrow too - Smash set-ups aren't super exact.
If they don't jump back, just Uair/Dair 'em.
I'm a pretty big fan of using UAir to offstage edgeguard. Depending on the recovery you can do it falling or rising.
Here's one of my Edgeguarding set-ups against Fox/Falco:
Low/Mid percent Dsmash, Run offstage, DJ Uair
This covers their jump back sideB recovery. You can start it from a Bthrow/Dthrow/FThrow too - Smash set-ups aren't super exact.
If they don't jump back, just Uair/Dair 'em.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
Between RAR, turnaround shine, and up air I'd say Wolf's got it pretty good when it comes to edgeguarding. Sure he lacks a sex kick or spike/semispike, but he can go really, really deep really, really fast, which pretty much makes up for it. Besides, at high percents a tipper fair is going to kill no matter what. Just keep all your options in mind.
Bryonato
Green Hat
I love Bair for edgeguarding tbh. You can get a TON of distance out of it and it has a pretty sizable hitbox.