D3 Balance Thread

[MookieRah]

Dedede Buffs

D3 shares the same problem that Bowser has. He's a combo rag doll. The only problem is that he has a hard time with characters once they get inside. Jabs are VERY important in Brawl+ since the introduction of the shield stun code, and D3 took a HUGE blow to all the codes because he relied heavily on his shield grab and the defensive abilities in VBrawl. Since he no longer has his chain grab and his defense game has been mega nerfed, what should we do?

Well, we could buff him the same way as Bowser, but I want to diversify the cast with my buffs if possible without it altering how a character is played. I propose that instead of beefing D3's defenses we go the other route, and buff his offense.

Here are the buffs I am proposing:

Increased Knockback
Increased Damage*1
Down grav normalized*2 This has been implemented
Slightly faster jab (no faster than Bowser's jab)

*2 I'm talking a slight increase here. This is mainly so that we don't have to rely entirely on increased knockback, which affects the scaling of all the moves. A little of both would be better than a lot of one or the other.

*2 If there is significant down grav then it limits his WOP. He also would survive better and make him play more like VBrawl.

These changes would slightly increase the survivability of D3 by giving back his normal VBrawl gravity, and would make D3 a killing machine. Since D3 has virtually no combos, he wouldn't lose much from a universal knockback increase, and since all of his moves scale better, he could kill at much better percentages at well.

 

[The Cape]

I like all your ideas here. With his restored floatiness he actually has decent combos as is.

The faster jab is all he really needs. He can combo decently as is, but he just needed the hitstun to do it. The jab helps get people off him, and his edgeguard game has always been crazy. With the restored floatiness he can do it amazingly well again, and since its easier to edgeguard people now it just makes him that much more powerful. I really dont think he needs a damage or knockback boost though.

He was my main initially in vBrawl before I switched to Wolf. The floatiness brings him back to where he was, but the changes to the game mechanics is all that requires him to need a faster jab to knock people off him. Thats about it.

 

[MookieRah]

That sounds good. I wasn't sure how much help he needed, but from what you say he's pretty good to go. *If* he needs another buff down the line I think just giving him a slight damage buff would be good, but for now I think what you said is good.

 

[The Cape]

So speed up the jab and he is good?

We can always boost his damage later if need be.

He and Bowser do similar damage, but Bowser has lacking mobility, combos, and edgeguarding so it hurts him MUCH more than Dedede.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, Bowser needed more to be on par. Although on the subject of edgeguarding, Bowser's dtilt is ****.

 

[The Cape]

I guess I meant that Dedede has gimpability and off the stage edgeguarding.

 

[KishPrime]

We need to get Joshu back here for this one.

Can we actually increase the speed of moves? I thought this was beyond our capabilities.

 

[KishSquared]

Yeah, Bowser needed more to be on par. Although on the subject of edgeguarding, Bowser's dtilt is ****.

Not with that ledge warp distance it's not, though it's probably effective now against characters that can't grab the ledge with their up-B moves.

I agree with Prime, is there any way we can admit Joshu before diving too deep into DDD?

 

[KishPrime]

Also is it possible that defense was nerfed too much? DDD's grab range is still amazing.

<_<

 

[MookieRah]

Also is it possible that defense was nerfed too much? DDD's grab range is still amazing.

The range is still amazing, but because of shield stun it's much harder to shield grab. On top of that most characters have the ability to jab to grab, which D3 doesn't have any way of doing. He has a much harder time to go for grabs because he is relatively vulnerable. He also lost his chain grab, so he lost quite a bit from the transition to B+. He needs some love to get him back on track. In any case, I'll tell Almas to invite Joshu back here when I see him next.

 

[KishPrime]

Marth can't jab to grab. I don't think this is a rule that we need to make.

If you jump in and attack someone who is shielding, you SHOULD GET GRABBED. This is my main objection with shieldstun. If this is a consistent problem, then it is too long.

The problem with initial Brawl was that the shield was too powerful, and the dthrow was too powerful, and this was a bad combination. Shield grabbing should be a safe, low damage reversal against an attack in most situations. There are always exceptions, but that's the rule.

 

[The Cape]

If you jump in and attack someone who is shielding, you SHOULD GET GRABBED. This is my main objection with shieldstun. If this is a consistent problem, then it is too long.

The problem with initial Brawl was that the shield was too powerful, and the dthrow was too powerful, and this was a bad combination. Shield grabbing should be a safe, low damage reversal against an attack in most situations. There are always exceptions, but that's the rule.

I liked how in Melee if you skillfully hit the sheild you didnt get grabbed. I see that here.

Maybe turn the sheild stun just a WEE bit, but hits on the bottom of sheilds and well spaced moves should not get sheild grabbed.

 

[shanus]

I liked how in Melee if you skillfully hit the sheild you didnt get grabbed. I see that here.

Maybe turn the sheild stun just a WEE bit, but hits on the bottom of sheilds and well spaced moves should not get sheild grabbed.

Do you think the shieldstun is slightly too high? 11/22/5 felt pretty good to me, but we could always try 10/22/5 or 10/20/5 and see if its enough. I have no problems with lowering the shieldstun, but the value felt pretty close to right before.

 

[KishPrime]

Even well-spaced moves should get shield-grabbed if the opposing character has a long grab range and the opponent doesn't account for it, or if there is a lot of landing lag on the attack, but I think we all understand this.

Here's the goal of offense vs. defense
Choose Offense: You have to circumvent the strengths of the other character, whether it be grab range or priority until you can force the other player into a defensive mistake and capitalize. Negatively, you commit yourself to tactics, and if you are not safe, if you execute poorly, or if the opponent has superb reaction time, then you will experience reversal.

Choose Defense: You can evade or reverse attacks with precise timing or spacing, and can simply wait for the other player to do something you can take advantage of. Negatively, a skilled opponent can often evade your strong counters, and yomi cannot be won 100% of the time. With reaction time as our "wall," eventually, if precise timing is required, you will be forced to guess what your opponent will do before he actually does it, and at this point it is a 50/50 proposition.


I'm probably missing something, but this is a start. If a player uses lousy spacing then he should get grabbed every time. If shield stun is too high, then the shield grab becomes useless as a means of defense, and offense gains too much ground.

One of the reasons why Melee was good was because good players forced yomi battles between offense and defense. In regular Brawl, it never got that deep because reaction time alone is sufficient to employ a near-perfect defense against many characters.

What's the explanation of the shieldstun numbers again?

 

[shanus]

Copied from the Code Agenda thread:

Shield Stun V8 [spunit262]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9CXXXX 3B9CZZZZ
3880YYYY 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

(Old shield stun*X+Z)/Y=new shield stun
Our values:
X=11
Z=22
Y=5

In terms of whats going on, since X multiplies by the old shieldstun, the X values have a greater effect on the stronger hitting moves whereas where the shieldstun is low, the Z values have a greater influence . So we can semi-fine tune the shieldstun on both things like jabs vs the knee.

 

[KishPrime]

At this point, I'm probably going to have to retreat till Saturday when I can playtest more.

 

[KishSquared]

Not the best place to post this, but what codes work and what codes fail in online play? I think I heard that ALR/ALC doesn't work online.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Here's the goal of offense vs. defense
Choose Offense: You have to circumvent the strengths of the other character, whether it be grab range or priority until you can force the other player into a defensive mistake and capitalize. Negatively, you commit yourself to tactics, and if you are not safe, if you execute poorly, or if the opponent has superb reaction time, then you will experience reversal.

While I agree with this philosophy, it is also the exact reason that I want high shield stun. I want high shield stun so that characters actually have "pokes" or moves that are safe on block to hassle the defensive person into making such a mistake. You don't have to be in an advantageous position after your "poke" but you certainly can't be in a disadvantageous positions (which happens all too often with low shield stun).

Choose Defense: You can evade or reverse attacks with precise timing or spacing, and can simply wait for the other player to do something you can take advantage of.

I agree with this. It's a good philosophy, because it illustrates that the basic point of defense is to avoid taking damage until you can successfully switch to offense.

Negatively, a skilled opponent can often evade your strong counters, and yomi cannot be won 100% of the time. With reaction time as our "wall," eventually, if precise timing is required, you will be forced to guess what your opponent will do before he actually does it, and at this point it is a 50/50 proposition.

Exactly. I'm not trying to get rid of shieldgrabbing altogether, but I want to turn it into more of a guessing game (provided that the approaching player actually spaces correctly). I don't want horizontally spaced approaches to be the only safe ones. If you do a low lag aerial right before you hit the ground (meaning that you could've been hit before doing the aerial) I think it should be safe on block and set up that guessing game.

I'm probably missing something, but this is a start. If a player uses lousy spacing then he should get grabbed every time.

I agree. But you have to realize that some characters simply don't have moves with enough range to be safe even if they use them at max spacing. So the only way for a move to be safe on block for them (as in the only way to be able to play offensively) is for their move to have low enough lag that they can move before the other player is able to shield grab them.

If shield stun is too high, then the shield grab becomes useless as a means of defense, and offense gains too much ground.

And if it is too low, shield grab becomes overpowered as a means of countering offense, and defense gains too much ground.

One of the reasons why Melee was good was because good players forced yomi battles between offense and defense.

We're trying to get that in Brawl+. You general benchmark is to allow low lag aerials to lead to a jab before the shieldgrab is able to connect (similar to how many characters in melee could do such a thing), but not allow the jab on their shield to lead into anything (except the continuation of the jab of course). This adds the following Yomi layer anytime someone properly spaces an aerial on someone's shield.
Player A hits player B's shield (preferably right before he lands)
scenario 1: Player A could now jabs. If player B tried to shield grab now it would not work. If player B shields Player A could either continue the jab or stop the jab and retreat. If player A attempts to retreat player B can simply grab (which would've been countered by continuing the jab combo). If player A continued the jab and player B shielded, player B get's to punish the jab combo's ending lag (or lag before the rapid jabs in some cases).

scenario 2: Player A retreats (either he dashes behind them or rolls or something). Player A forfeited any follow up opportunities and all pressure on player B has been relieved. Player B didn't get a counter attack, but I think that's fine (provided that the opponent did the aerial fairly close to the ground and it was an aerial with little lag)

scenario 3: Player A spotdodges after doing his aerial. If player B continued shielding, or just let go of his shield, then Player A is now in a disadvantageous position. If player B tried to shield grab instead...he'd miss and player A may be able to capitalize (depends on how long his spotdodge is/how much lag the opponent's grab has).

scenario 4: Player A continues pressuring with aerials. This is not guranteed, but rather a capitalization on player B's inaction. If player A predicts that player B will just continue shielding (as he is expecting another attack) player A can either grab (counterable by your own grab or a spotdodge) or jump and do another low aerial to try to reset the same situation. (you could've grabbed before he jumped)

This Yomi setup is what I'm aiming for, but with low shieldstun it is not present. At low shield stun, only moves with a lot of range are safe, because they are out of shield grab range the entire time and you don't get this kind of mixup. Neither side is at risk of losing anything if they just stick to this one optimal stategy. The offense spaces attacks at max range and the defense holds shield and doesn't go for the shield grab unless the offense moves into shield grab range. Neither side is taking any damage and the match isn't really going anywhere. With my above scenarios, both the risk and reward are higher, because it's not just a matter of making a technical mistake (like spacing poorly), but rather mis-predicting your opponent's actions.

What's the explanation of the shieldstun numbers again?

I'm not quite sure actually. edit: never mind.

 

[Deleted member]

shieldstun is calculated as follows:
s is original shieldstun
n is new shieldstun
((s*x)+z)/y = n

this means that z has more impact on jabs and other low shieldstun attacks, while x has more effect on attack with longer shieldstun. y is affecting both more or less equally

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I could see the shield stun going down a little bit, but mostly so that moves don't lock people in their shields...ever. I don't want there to ever be a situation where you get to wear down on someone's shield for free.

I don't want them getting shield grabbed in between jabs either (only the fast parts of the jabs. If you shield grab them between the 2nd hit and the rapid jabs, that's fine)

 

[MookieRah]

Marth can't jab to grab. I don't think this is a rule that we need to make.

I don't think every character should jab to grab, I don't even think that with the buff i'm thinking of that D3 would have a "jab to grab." In Marth's case, he has plenty of quick moves that he uses when people get inside his range. He doesn't need a jab to grab because of that. If you look at D3 though, he has very few quick moves on the ground. If he could just jab faster he can get people off of him easier.

I also think that turning down the shield stun is in order. I'm thinking 10/20/5 would be good to try.

 

[Almas]

Pit's Angel Ring locks people in shieldstun with 11/22/5, as a side note. But it isn't really relevant, as characters are pushed out of it and it does virtually no shield damage anyway.

I'll message Joshu for confirmation, then get JV to invite him.

 

[KishSquared]

DDD losing his CG makes him considerably weaker, so I'm not sure we should focus too much on his grabbing abilities.

As Joshu will probably state, DDD's problem is his lack of kill moves. He has his utilt and fsmash, and that's about it. Dsmash works at higher percentages, and DDD obviously has amazing edgeguarding capabilities.

In the end, I'm not sure what to do to give DDD a boost. Does he need more offense? More defense?

 

[MookieRah]

Well, with Bowser we boosted defense, that is why I always pressed to boost D3's offense. That makes each character more unique and gives the player a choice between the big slow tank or the big slow offensive juggernaut.

 

[The Cape]

I think DDD plays excellent as he is right now in Brawl+

Without the weakened moves d tilt and bair create viable kill moves or at least knock people off the stage.

Down B DESTROYS, and forward air has lots of power.

Faster jab is really all he needs.

 

[KishSquared]

Maybe we should avoid boosting the top tiers for a while. I mean, if anything, shouldn't we be talking about nerfing them?

DDD is currently considered top/high tier. Maybe we should start at the bottom and work our way up, lol.

 

[KishPrime]

I'd assume that a big reason why we're working on him is the now-absence of chain grabs and the dramatic effect there-of, plus the combined bonus of developing him alongside Bowser for contrast.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd assume that a big reason why we're working on him is the now-absence of chain grabs and the dramatic effect there-of, plus the combined bonus of developing him alongside Bowser for contrast.

Pretty much.

 

[KishSquared]

Maybe we should just wait and see how he handles himself. Though without his CG he's gotta be worse off than where he's currently at.

 

[The Cape]

Does no one listen to me at all? I actually play the character, put alot of versus time into him in Brawl+

He needs the jab boost and thats it. He still does great damage and his edgeguarding game is MUCH MUCH better.

 

[leafgreen386]

Brawl tiers

Do

Not

Matter

(except for mk)

Seriously. The balance in this game has completely changed just by the inclusion of hitstun. DDD lost his CT in the transition, but gained a better WoP, while getting combo'd pretty easily himself. He's definitely not top tier anymore, although I'm not sure how much of a buff he really needs.

If The Cape says all he needs is a jab boost, though, I'd be inclined to believe him. At least until we get more people's opinions on the matter. From the sounds of things, though, he won't need much tweaking to be set.

 

[MookieRah]

Hitstun took away his chaingrab and makes him a huge target. At the very least a jab fix won't break him at all. We aren't even talking about making it super fast, it would just be better if it was as fast as Bowser's jab.

 

[KishPrime]

He still does great damage and his edgeguarding game is MUCH MUCH better.

This I believe.

 

[KishSquared]

If The Cape says all he needs is a jab boost, though, I'd be inclined to believe him. At least until we get more people's opinions on the matter. From the sounds of things, though, he won't need much tweaking to be set.

Should we really be so focused this early on specific moves? I mean, maybe we should adjust global values and tweak individual moves further on in the life of the game.

I think we should be discussing his weight, fall speeds, and offensive/defensive stats.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think we should. At least on particularly obvious ones. Of course we need to get stats such as weight and fall speed right, first, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't brainstorm up other ways we could fix a character up. Once geckoOS 2.0 comes out, we're gonna have a lot of line space, so we actually will be able to balance this game fairly well if we pick the right tweaks.

 

[The Cape]

The particularly obvious moves that really need it go into the part of things like:

Pika D throw
Snake U tilt
Sheik F tilt
Meta tornado and D smash

Those are the moves that REALLY need it, thats about it really.

 

[KishPrime]

MK Up-B needs more than the dsmash imo, though I could see a small nerf to both.

Thing is, if you are reducing MK's weight way down, you might not need to do as much nerfing at all of those moves. I'd rather see his incredible kill power preserved, it's one thing that makes him unique. I'd make him die at 50% before I'd take away all those.

 

[shanus]

MK Up-B needs more than the dsmash imo, though I could see a small nerf to both.

Thing is, if you are reducing MK's weight way down, you might not need to do as much nerfing at all of those moves. I'd rather see his incredible kill power preserved, it's one thing that makes him unique. I'd make him die at 50% before I'd take away all those.

Thats why we just wanted to add lag to the end of the dsmash. He is a solid character right now, but chars like diddy have scaled tremendously to make it a much harder fight. Thats why I say we don't nerf any characters yet besides obvious fixes like sheiks ftilt until we get more testing.

 

[The Cape]

I still think Meta tornado needs landing lag :-p

As for Dedede, he should be second heaviest (Bowser), he has an insanely fast fastfall, and he is back to Brawl floatability, which helps him against combos.

I think his physics are great right now.