D.B.R. Presents: GENESIS! RESULTS-Melee: Mango. Brawl: To Be Decided

[Vyse]

Sethlon, sure.

POOLS
If you guys already have someone who understands how to efficiently run pools, my apologies, but it seems that many people have no idea what they're talking about. I <3 pb&j but to say that if pools MATCHES run quickly then we'll be okay is absolutely false.

Pools run WAY smoother the less people there are per pool. This is not only because it's easier to find everyone and round everyone up when there are less people, but the math also works out convincingly so.

Mathematically speaking pools are most efficiently run by minimizing the number of PLAYERS per pool. More pools = faster tournament.

If there are X players in a pool, the total number of sets to be played are x(x-1)/2, so pools of 4 have (4*3)/2 = 6 sets and pools of 5 have (5*4)/2 = 10 sets. The progression goes like this.

0 - 1 - 3 - 6 - 10 - 15 - 21 - 28... from pools of 1 to 8.

The point I'm trying to make with this is that pools of 6 have almost HALF the number of sets as pools of 8.

Pools of 4 have 6 sets
Pools of 8 have 28 sets

So even if you have pools of 8 running on 3 tvs,

you will be running at a rate of 28/3= 9.33 sets/TV
which will take longer than pools of 4 on 1 tv = 6/1 = 6 sets/TV, plus you'll be using 1/3 of the TVs.

idk if my math is right here (I'm always right) but from that calculation right there it seems to me that if you run pools of 4 players each you will be running a tournament (9.3333/6)*3= 4.666665 times more efficiently than a tournament with pools of 8 players.

Anyways I know everyone hates the idea of pools of 4 (what I did @ RoM), but pools at RoM ran about an hour and a half long. If you have 500 attendants (which you won't), you're gonna need 125 TVs to run a first round of pools in ONE WAVE, which works out to 6 sets @ 15 minutes / set = 1.5 hours.

I think that that's the step you guys are going to NEED to take to make sure you can run FOUR full-length tournaments (singles and teams for both games) AND crews.

Good luck and seriously consider what I'm saying.

Good **** scar.
I'm saving this to my memory banks.

 

[SwiftBass]

dayum Scar is on his ****!!!!!!

since ppl are giving suggestions has anyone ever tried 2 tourneys in 1? Like mini tourneys separated and divided accordingly. I'd be like putting mango on one side of the bracket and m2k on the other minus winners finals....

slicing the participants in half and distributing them accordingly into 2 diff tourneys and having the the winners of grand finals in each face each other. Ideally with the given amount of setups its like two pound 3's running along side each other haha. This perhaps is another way of minimizing the damage done by the length of pools..just some thoughts and ****

yeah this idae sounds janky but it came to me and I had to type it feel free to say it blows/ignore it.

 

[pockyD]

i don't get what you are saying =\

i mean i get it, but i don't get what advice you want people to take from it

having 4-person pools (out of which you take the top 2) is rather mediocre because it only guarantees exactly three sets for half the people who enter, many who spent hundreds of dollars and hours of travel time. in addition, when only taking 2 people from a pool, you reduce your margin of error in producing 'properly seeded' pools

i personally think taking 3/6 at every level is a happy medium

also, there's no reason to run pools all in one wave; that forces everyone in the pool to stick around by the TV the entire duration of pools

even if you did have one TV per pool available, it'd generally be better to run two waves or more of pools, simply because it doesn't force people to stick around and/or go long periods without playing at all (which can most certainly impact your performance)


edit: running 'two tournaments' side by side doesn't save any time if the TOs are on the ball, as it eliminates exactly one or two sets from being played out (out of hundreds)

the only real benefit is being 'easier to run', but it comes at a very high cost to fairness/intensity

 

[Col Bol]

having 4-person pools (out of which you take the top 2) is rather mediocre because it only guarantees exactly three sets for half the people who enter, many who spent hundreds of dollars and hours of travel time. in addition, when only taking 2 people from a pool, you reduce your margin of error in producing 'properly seeded' pools

/agree .

 

[SwiftBass]

edit: running 'two tournaments' side by side doesn't save any time if the TOs are on the ball, as it eliminates exactly one or two sets from being played out (out of hundreds)

the only real benefit is being 'easier to run', but it comes at a very high cost to fairness/intensity

aite

you make a good point about what ppl get for their money / traveling commitment.

efficiency vs customer satisfaction its seems to be

 

[Slhoka]

Anyways I know everyone hates the idea of pools of 4 (what I did @ RoM), but pools at RoM ran about an hour and a half long. If you have 500 attendants (which you won't), you're gonna need 125 TVs to run a first round of pools in ONE WAVE, which works out to 6 sets @ 15 minutes / set = 1.5 hours.

The thing is, paying 90$ (without the travel costs) to play a total of 12 sets during 3 days of tournament (as there won't be much freeplay) is a total pain in the arse.
I can understand that this tournament will be extremly big and that sacrifices have to be made, but seriously, pools of 4 are too harsh.
People may think that if you're not good enough to play a decent amount of sets, it's your problem. But bad players are as important as good players, as their numbers are what makes a big tournament (and they may become goog players one day). I've heard some smashers tell me they didn't enjoy a tournament and wouldn't attend any other because they could play only a few sets in a whole weekend. They really enjoyed these sets, but it just wasn't worth the price.


Question to the hosts : how many TVs do you think you'll have ?

Something else to consider -- Smash tournaments of the past have catered to the general apathy of high-level Smashers. Every tourney I've run has had people like M2K / JMan / Eggm sit and play friendlies while registration is going on or want to get lunch in the middle of pools, not signing up for events etc.

That's so true. I remember hosting tournaments where top players really deserved to be DQ'ed. It will be necessary to be harsh with everyone at this tournament.

Also, I agree with you about fixing pools. It's really hard to do and it's about as long as making new pools, if you want to make something good.

 

[T1g3rbombz]

so whose up for some 64? less DRAMA!!!!!

 

[strawhats]

Hey Imagine if this tourney was like 9000 people. I would die if that really happened. Good luck with all the prep. and stuff.

 

[SwiftBass]

Hey Imagine if this tourney was like 9000 people. I would die if that really happened. Good luck with all the prep. and stuff.

or how about over 9000.
*breaks scouter*

 

[Slhoka]

Hey Imagine if this tourney was like 9000 people. I would die if that really happened. Good luck with all the prep. and stuff.

Speaking of thousands of people, the pre-registration list just reached an impressive milestone :

 

[PB&J]

if europe is coming ..we really dont know how good they are except from vids..so pools will be hard regrdless....so no one should complain because im excpecting pools to be as hard as pound 3 pools like way harder actually..but seed them as best as possible..there are plenty of players from all over that are really good and might be place in a pool and make it a death pool..u guys seen the rest of fl play in person but none seen lambchops..well..forget it..u guys know what ur doing..im just hyped son..do what u do and please dont have top 2..

it was cool at rom because there were alot of noobs but genesis will prob have like 30 noobs out of a ruff 300 melee entrants..

so please do like three rounds of pools or something

 

[stingers]

I agree wholeheartedly about giving absolutely no slack to pros if they fail to follow directions.

 

[Mogwai]

idk if my math is right here (I'm always right) but from that calculation right there it seems to me that if you run pools of 4 players each you will be running a tournament (9.3333/6)*3= 4.666665 times more efficiently than a tournament with pools of 8 players.

you're not always right and are over complicating things with your calculations. if you do 8 man pools, you need to play 28 matches/8 players. if you do 4 man pools, you need to play 6 matches/4 players = 12 matches/8 players. which means that 8 man pools runs (12/28) 42% as efficiently as 4 man pools, or in other words 4 man pools run (28/12) 2.33 times as efficiently assuming the only differences between the two are the sizes of pools (a fair assumption).

p.s. my degree is better than yours, get ***** .

good discussion though guys, this **** does need to be talked about.

 

[Vyse]

I wanna money match Melee/Brawl pro's since this will be the only time I ever get to play em.

$2.50 MM's cause I have to travel overseas and need to save mah money.

 

[hungrybox]

pools of 6 :D

its the BEST solution

top 2 advance

PLUS

4 + 8 = 12

12 / 2 = 6

SOEW THEIR FOR EYE M CORE ECT

 

[strawhats]

or how about over 9000.
*breaks scouter*

LOL Swift. How long do you think it would take to finish a tournament of that size. If everything is done correctly I would say close to 6-7 days( maybe even 2 weeks) Just to be clear I am thinking of a melee tourney someday having this amount of entrants.

 

[Plairnkk]

it will be interesting to watch this whole process unfold from afar.

 

[Xelic]

Vyse, I will $MM$ you in Melee for 2 dollars. I don't want to mess with change.

 

[Vyse]

Melee I assume?
Awesomeness.

$2 MMs for all!

 

[pockyD]

so can someone buy me a PAL version of melee?

(i'll pay you back, duh)

 

[Vyse]

1x PAL Melee for Connor
1x PAL Melee for pockyD

****, I gotta find them somewheres :X

 

[pockyD]

awesome!

let me know (preferably via pm) how much it'll be so i can have the money ready instead of haggling about change

 

[Vyse]

Yeah, I can't make any promises, but I'll try to pick up a couple of copies somehow :X

 

[Milos]

ok this is coming from someone who's most likely not going to make it out of pools

i agree with hbox

2/6

if you only seed out half of each pool you're looking at a 256 man bracket (with byes of course) and that **** will suck so bad to run

you need to get it down to 128 man or else the bracket will **** you up the *** not the pools

also i love you evan can i stay in your hotel room i'll throw down son, and you know i always gotchoo when you come up for tournies like RoM 2

 

[pockyD]

256 man bracket wouldn't have byes

and i have no idea what you mean by 'seed out half'

there will definitely be multiple rounds of pools, at least for singles

 

[Milos]

like if there are 500 entrants, and 2 are eliminated per pool, you're looking at 250 people, aka a 256 man bracket with 6 byes

 

[Mogwai]

1. there won't be 500 people
2. multiple rounds of pools

 

[hungrybox]

yea why not have two rounds of pools?

64 man brackets are even approved by SSBM ^_^

 

[Milos]

word i didnt take two rounds of pools into account

nvm

 

[pockyD]

What we want to do.. what were aiming to, what we think is the most efficient and time saving as possible, and most reasonable, is this:

64 initial 1st round pools
2 rounds of pools MAX
6-7 in each
top 2-3 advance in each
32-64 man bracket

now i know non of that really adds up.. but thats the general game plan. Things will vary from it one way or another, depending on how many people show up, and actually attend.

2 rounds of pools

 

[cubaisdeath]

awesome!

let me know (preferably via pm) how much it'll be so i can have the money ready instead of haggling about change

do you have a pal tv?

 

[Scar]

oh **** good eye wes, yeah i didnt take the difference in people into account so i was off by 2x.

pocky, i agree that 6 is a happy medium but i would strongly advise AGAINST doing like pools of 6/7 and would rather add more pools and keep it at 5/6

also in terms of money, i'd rather some players only get 3 sets for 90 dollars than have the tournament not finish and have everyone have paid 90 dollars and the players that have done the best need to finish the tournament off-site or have crews not happen. no question.

idk how tight these guys are on time but i'm just saying. good points @ pocky and wes, and yeah milos, every like 150+ man tourney has had multiple rounds of pools, 2nd round is where it gets really interesting

EDIT

in other words, the one thing i want them NOT to do is to cap the number of round 1 pools at say 64 (like they had planned), have 400 entrants and then do pools of 6/7, god forbid we get the 500 number and we do a bunch of pools of 8.

i'd rather them get the number, say 400, shoot for pools of 6, then 400/6 = 66.6, so you have 67 pools, top 3 make it out, and 2 of the pools have 5 players instead of 6 (maybe those are the ones with mango and m2k in it)

then 2nd round you only have 201 players, NOW cap the pools at 32, top 2 make it out, and that looks beautiful to me

i just think capping 1st round of pools is silly b/c it really doesn't make anything easier in the end.

 

[pockyD]

do you have a pal tv?

is it necessary? =\

stuff

yeah, i mean it was just a rough guess anyway; if there are in the neighborhood of 350-400 people (which would be my best guess too), then 64 pools of 6 pretty much works out

if there's some sort of confirmation system coming up, it'll be easier to determine the format when there's a more focused head count and roster

 

[The King]

We have many different scenarios that we have run through in order to be most efficient, effective, and fair.

With everything taken into consideration, including the sheer number of entrants we're looking at compared to the time frame we have to run 4 events, all the while being as fair and reasonable as possible to our entrants, our plan is as follows:

(**Singles Events**)
--1st round of pools = 64 initial pools
6-7 participants (possibly 7-8) per pool
Top-3 advance in each

-2nd round of pools = 32 pools
6 participants per pool
-Top 2 advance in each
64 man bracket

Heh, from the 1st post updated a couple months ago. Yeah we've kind of done our homework as far as pools go. We considered pretty much everything from 4-man pools to 10-man pools, weighing out all the pros & cons / time-efficiency / level of fairness to our entrants, and pretty much decided on the schedule above.

While doing much smaller pools would be great for finishing up quickly, and doing larger (8-10 man) pools would be great for giving every entrant their tourney value, we decided on the 6-7 person/pool spread as being the best medium.... This meant that most pools would have 6 people, with maybe just a few pools having 7. Though it all really depends on the # of entrants; if there are enough to warrant more than 64 pools then we plan on adding more.

Also, please keep in mind that because we're pushing back crews until Sunday, we have around 12-14 hours on Friday to complete one round of Teams Pools for each event, and about 14-16 hours on Sunday to complete two rounds of Singles Pools for each event (Brackets are being saved until Sunday.) Even with delays taken into account, we should have ample time to be able to successfully uphold this schedule.




Also, as far as keeping this tourney running on schedule:

We're going to be some brutal sons of *****es at this event, I won't lie. We decided long before we even *announced* Genesis that to run this tourney on time, we'd need to captain this event as strictly as possible. There will be no lee-way, no favoritism, and no mercy when it comes to managing registration, keeping friendlies from cluttering up our time-schedule, and ensuring that every event runs promptly.

We won't care if Mew2king wakes up half an hour late & doesn't arrive on-time; DQ'd.
We won't care if somebody thought it would be a great idea to run to In&Out for a burger in-between bracket sets; not on time? DQ'd.
We won't care if you're Ken & decided to show up without pre-registering. There's always the spectator fee.
We won't care if you think you've got enough popularity or reputation in the smash scene to just sit at an empty TV and bust out friendlies; We see this **** happening, it won't matter if you came from the ****ing MOON to attend Genesis, your *** will pay the price for it.

 

[GDX]

king, ive been trying to AIM you all day about registration and whatnot, since you told people to AIM/PM you. can you just AIM me at GameDragonX please

 

[The MC Clusky]

We won't care if Mew2king wakes up half an hour late & doesn't arrive on-time; DQ'd.
We won't care if somebody thought it would be a great idea to run to In&Out for a burger in-between bracket sets; not on time? DQ'd.
We won't care if you're Ken & decided to show up without pre-registering. There's always the spectator fee.
We won't care if you think you've got enough popularity or reputation in the smash scene to just sit at an empty TV and bust out friendlies; We see this **** happening, it won't matter if you came from the ****ing MOON to attend Genesis, your *** will pay the price for it.

I seriously lol'd.

Better kick some *** as a TO, cuz this shiz is about to get srs.

 

[Zoap]

Reposting Bart/Hotel/Venue Transportation Thread for those of you who didn't see it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238120

 

[strawhats]

1. there won't be 500 people
2. multiple rounds of pools

With the knowledge that 1/4 of those pre-registered wont make it to Genesis, it will pobably range in 500+ people. For each game.

 

[Pi]

Lol
I would take great satisfaction if ken were to show up unannounced and unregistered and be turned away from entering the tournament.
But I would take even more pleasure in him entering, and losing miserably

No hate on ken but..okay a lil hate on ken. way2quitscrub

 

[wWw Dazwa]

We won't care if Mew2king wakes up half an hour late & doesn't arrive on-time; DQ'd.
We won't care if somebody thought it would be a great idea to run to In&Out for a burger in-between bracket sets; not on time? DQ'd.
We won't care if you're Ken & decided to show up without pre-registering. There's always the spectator fee.
We won't care if you think you've got enough popularity or reputation in the smash scene to just sit at an empty TV and bust out friendlies; We see this **** happening, it won't matter if you came from the ****ing MOON to attend Genesis, your *** will pay the price for it.

It's...it's...

Beautiful...;_;

Good **** DBR