Critique Super Smash Bros.

Ze Diglett

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
1,969
Location
Rivals of Aether, probably
NNID
ZeDiglett
Ultimate's engine is both great and terrible. It's completely unpredictable, and very aggressively offense based. Yet the neutral is completely chaotic and hard to predict. Whereas Smash 4 required some strategic foresight, I feel Ultimate does a step backwards in this direction. Melee does better in what Ultimate tries to achieve in this regard.
See, this is weird to me; Ultimate's engine supposedly aims to be fast-paced and encourage aggression, yet in practice, campy, defensive play sure still seems to be the optimal strategy in this game. Hell, that's a big part of why I don't play Ultimate anymore. Games are an active medium, that's what sets them apart from TV and movies and the like. So if the better part of your game amounts to a staring contest between two players waiting to see who commits to an approach first, at the end of the day, I'm just gonna go play something else.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
500
I honestly can't see Smash other than the looks of 64, Melee and Brawl. I think Smash's newer aesthetics as of recent is too colorful. I miss Smash's rated T feeling, Idk. There's just something about the older aesthetics, old school Smash just feel more badass.

The gameplay in Smash 4 is still excellent while everything else feels flat and empty.
Ok, but why did you quote me?
 

UserKev

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
1,844
View attachment 271445

Seriously, Miis are characters of limitless potential, being Nintendo‘s first major take on customizable avatars…and you want it all squandered by making them Trophies.
*Takes a breather and face palms" Smash doesn't need customizable miis. It just needs to improve on modes if possible. Honestly, stop taking my critiques so literal.

Really, if your going to continue with this nitpicky attitude, most or some of your posts in this thread aren't really to do with critiques. You just make samy suggestions for character movesets that, topics already have separate threads made for them.
 

Perkilator

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
2,644
Location
San Clemente, California
*Takes a breather and face palms" Smash doesn't need customizable miis. It just needs to improve on modes if possible. Honestly, stop taking my critiques so literal.

Really, if your going to continue with this nitpicky attitude, most or some of your posts in this thread aren't really to do with critiques. You just make samy suggestions for character movesets that, topics already have separate threads made for them.
Fine, whatever. I’m done with this.
 

Perkilator

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
2,644
Location
San Clemente, California
…Okay, I know I said I was done, but I wanted to get one thing off my chest; one true critique I can muster. I’m bound to get some disagreement, so here goes:

-Mario should’ve at least gotten the Mega Mushroom in Smash 4 and kept it in Ultimate (if they probably couldn’t get the T-Rex for development and timing reasons)

-DK’s Jungle Rush should’ve ended with him punching the moon

-Link’s Ancient Bow and Arrow should’ve been preceded with a Flurry Rush

-Dark Samus should’ve turned into Metroid Prime

-Kirby should’ve gotten the Robobot Armor as a cinematic FS

-Pikachu should’ve gotten Catastropika (Pichu can keep Volt Tackle)

-Captain Falcon’s Blue Falcon should’ve included a detail of a Falcon Punch on top of the Blue Falcon

-Jigglypuff should’ve used Sing, and have drawings appear on opponents that damage them

-Peach Blossom? Totally fine, as long as you’re quick enough to get the peaches and heal yourself before the opponent does. Daisy Blossom, though? Should’ve at least been changed to inflicting a flower effect on all opponents and NO giant healing daisies

-Dr. Mario should’ve gotten a cinematic FS where the Miis from Virus Buster appear and flood the opponents with Megavitamins

-Lucina should’ve gotten a Luna that goes through multiple opponents

-Young Link should’ve gotten a Triforce Slash variation where he turns into Fierce Diety

-Meta Knight should’ve KEPT Galaxia Darkness

-Pit should’ve KEPT the Three Sacred Treaures, while DARK Pit gets the Lightning Chariot

-ZSS should’ve kept her SSB4 Final Smash

-Charizard should’ve Mega Evolved during Triple Finish if you were gonna relegate it (LUCARIO Mega Evolves during Aura Storm)

-Toon Link should’ve gotten the Ballad of Gales

-Rosalina should’ve gotten a Final Smash where she crashes the OBSERVATORY (doesn’t even NEED to be cinematic)

-Greninja should’ve ended his Secret Ninja Attack with the powered-up Water Shuriken it uses in the anime

-Robin should’ve Paired Up with Morgan

-Inkling should’ve gotten the Kraken

-Richter should’ve gotten Hydrostorm (again, like Rosalina, doesn’t even NEED to be cinematic)



In general: I appreciate wanting to make some change, but not ALL of them need to be unstoppable weapons of mass destruction.
 

UserKev

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
1,844
…Okay, I know I said I was done, but I wanted to get one thing off my chest; one true critique I can muster. I’m bound to get some disagreement, so here goes:

-Mario should’ve at least gotten the Mega Mushroom in Smash 4 and kept it in Ultimate (if they probably couldn’t get the T-Rex for development and timing reasons)

-DK’s Jungle Rush should’ve ended with him punching the moon

-Link’s Ancient Bow and Arrow should’ve been preceded with a Flurry Rush

-Dark Samus should’ve turned into Metroid Prime

-Kirby should’ve gotten the Robobot Armor as a cinematic FS

-Pikachu should’ve gotten Catastropika (Pichu can keep Volt Tackle)

-Captain Falcon’s Blue Falcon should’ve included a detail of a Falcon Punch on top of the Blue Falcon

-Jigglypuff should’ve used Sing, and have drawings appear on opponents that damage them

-Peach Blossom? Totally fine, as long as you’re quick enough to get the peaches and heal yourself before the opponent does. Daisy Blossom, though? Should’ve at least been changed to inflicting a flower effect on all opponents and NO giant healing daisies

-Dr. Mario should’ve gotten a cinematic FS where the Miis from Virus Buster appear and flood the opponents with Megavitamins

-Lucina should’ve gotten a Luna that goes through multiple opponents

-Young Link should’ve gotten a Triforce Slash variation where he turns into Fierce Diety

-Meta Knight should’ve KEPT Galaxia Darkness

-Pit should’ve KEPT the Three Sacred Treaures, while DARK Pit gets the Lightning Chariot

-ZSS should’ve kept her SSB4 Final Smash

-Charizard should’ve Mega Evolved during Triple Finish if you were gonna relegate it (LUCARIO Mega Evolves during Aura Storm)

-Toon Link should’ve gotten the Ballad of Gales

-Rosalina should’ve gotten a Final Smash where she crashes the OBSERVATORY (doesn’t even NEED to be cinematic)

-Greninja should’ve ended his Secret Ninja Attack with the powered-up Water Shuriken it uses in the anime

-Robin should’ve Paired Up with Morgan

-Inkling should’ve gotten the Kraken

-Richter should’ve gotten Hydrostorm (again, like Rosalina, doesn’t even NEED to be cinematic)



In general: I appreciate wanting to make some change, but not ALL of them need to be unstoppable weapons of mass destruction.
You can still post in the thread, dude. Just don't respond to "critiques" as if your taking them personal. Everyone has a dream Smash.
 

Beth Uriel

Ghastly Grinner
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
30,679
Location
Baragoon Tunnel
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
…Okay, I know I said I was done, but I wanted to get one thing off my chest; one true critique I can muster. I’m bound to get some disagreement, so here goes:

-Mario should’ve at least gotten the Mega Mushroom in Smash 4 and kept it in Ultimate (if they probably couldn’t get the T-Rex for development and timing reasons)

-DK’s Jungle Rush should’ve ended with him punching the moon

-Link’s Ancient Bow and Arrow should’ve been preceded with a Flurry Rush

-Dark Samus should’ve turned into Metroid Prime

-Kirby should’ve gotten the Robobot Armor as a cinematic FS

-Pikachu should’ve gotten Catastropika (Pichu can keep Volt Tackle)

-Captain Falcon’s Blue Falcon should’ve included a detail of a Falcon Punch on top of the Blue Falcon

-Jigglypuff should’ve used Sing, and have drawings appear on opponents that damage them

-Peach Blossom? Totally fine, as long as you’re quick enough to get the peaches and heal yourself before the opponent does. Daisy Blossom, though? Should’ve at least been changed to inflicting a flower effect on all opponents and NO giant healing daisies

-Dr. Mario should’ve gotten a cinematic FS where the Miis from Virus Buster appear and flood the opponents with Megavitamins

-Lucina should’ve gotten a Luna that goes through multiple opponents

-Young Link should’ve gotten a Triforce Slash variation where he turns into Fierce Diety

-Meta Knight should’ve KEPT Galaxia Darkness

-Pit should’ve KEPT the Three Sacred Treaures, while DARK Pit gets the Lightning Chariot

-ZSS should’ve kept her SSB4 Final Smash

-Charizard should’ve Mega Evolved during Triple Finish if you were gonna relegate it (LUCARIO Mega Evolves during Aura Storm)

-Toon Link should’ve gotten the Ballad of Gales

-Rosalina should’ve gotten a Final Smash where she crashes the OBSERVATORY (doesn’t even NEED to be cinematic)

-Greninja should’ve ended his Secret Ninja Attack with the powered-up Water Shuriken it uses in the anime

-Robin should’ve Paired Up with Morgan

-Inkling should’ve gotten the Kraken

-Richter should’ve gotten Hydrostorm (again, like Rosalina, doesn’t even NEED to be cinematic)



In general: I appreciate wanting to make some change, but not ALL of them need to be unstoppable weapons of mass destruction.
Probably worth pointing out that Smash references the Pokemon anime, but doesn't outright copy it. At least in the case of stuff like Jigglypuff. It's loosely based upon the anime, but for the most part, it was based upon Kirby's moveset which happened to heavily fit Jigglypuff's own abilities. Only Mewtwo and Lucario fight pretty much identically to the anime. Pikachu has a few similarities, but that's it. Same with other Pokemon sometimes using a move here or there. I do like it, but I can see why they didn't bother with it. Growing larger does happen to come from the anime too, heh.

Robin's an odd one to me. Chrom makes sense too, cause it's still completely fitting for having a fast Final Smash to "streamline" it. It's still accurate. If they had more time, yeah, changing it out would've been cool.

Young Link's also odd. Despite officially coming from MM/OOT(according to the Japanese Melee trophy), he doesn't bring any MM content himself. The closest is Great Bay as a stage(and well, Tingle existing). It would've been great to have the basic Triforce Slash. I guess it took too much time to have him transform?

Just to point out, eating Daisies actually is healthy, so despite being the same Final Smash bar aesthetics, it's actually very accurate too. I would've liked more unique FS's, but some fit in other ways, heh.

Really neat ideas, that said.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
1,969
Location
Rivals of Aether, probably
NNID
ZeDiglett
Probably worth pointing out that Smash references the Pokemon anime, but doesn't outright copy it. At least in the case of stuff like Jigglypuff. It's loosely based upon the anime, but for the most part, it was based upon Kirby's moveset which happened to heavily fit Jigglypuff's own abilities. Only Mewtwo and Lucario fight pretty much identically to the anime. Pikachu has a few similarities, but that's it. Same with other Pokemon sometimes using a move here or there. I do like it, but I can see why they didn't bother with it. Growing larger does happen to come from the anime too, heh.
Even then, I wouldn't say Mewtwo fights all too similarly to the anime at all. Remember in the first Pokemon movie when Mewtwo's main method of attack was... slapping the **** out of people with his tail? Me neither.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
500
Even then, I wouldn't say Mewtwo fights all too similarly to the anime at all. Remember in the first Pokemon movie when Mewtwo's main method of attack was... slapping the **** out of people with his tail? Me neither.
Is it really his "main method of attack" in Smash?
 

Beth Uriel

Ghastly Grinner
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
30,679
Location
Baragoon Tunnel
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Even then, I wouldn't say Mewtwo fights all too similarly to the anime at all. Remember in the first Pokemon movie when Mewtwo's main method of attack was... slapping the **** out of people with his tail? Me neither.
Mewtwo doesn't even use its tail attacks... that much in Smash. Main method, no. Shadow Ball and Psychic attacks are the main method.

But yeah, I forgot it has some other elemental attacks and that it uses its tail, sometimes. So very similar to the anime. My bad.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
1,969
Location
Rivals of Aether, probably
NNID
ZeDiglett
Mewtwo doesn't even use its tail attacks... that much in Smash. Main method, no. Shadow Ball and Psychic attacks are the main method.

But yeah, I forgot it has some other elemental attacks and that it uses its tail, sometimes. So very similar to the anime. My bad.
Is it really his "main method of attack" in Smash?
Considering around half his normals use his tail to attack, I'd say so, yeah. It's more moves than use his psychic powers that he's actually known for, anyway.
 
Last edited:

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
500
Considering around half his normals use his tail to attack, I'd say so, yeah. It's more moves than use his psychic powers that he's actually known for, anyway.
Well, maybe. But realistically, could he use his psychic powers for normal attacks? It's like Samus hitting people with her arm. She never does that in her games. But she had to in Smash, given the way it's supposed to play. Megaman's more ''faithful'' moveset arrived way later.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
1,969
Location
Rivals of Aether, probably
NNID
ZeDiglett
Well, maybe. But realistically, could he use his psychic powers for normal attacks? It's like Samus hitting people with her arm. She never does that in her games. But she had to in Smash, given the way it's supposed to play. Megaman's more ''faithful'' moveset arrived way later.
He could (and in my opinion, should) if Smash were willing to be a bit more adventurous with its movesets. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be his normals, just give his grabs and specials a greater emphasis on Mewtwo's signature telekinetic abilities. For instance, I've said in the past that Mewtwo's dinky Side-B should be replaced with a ranged command grab that can throw opponents towards him for combos or away from him for a kill. That'd be a perfect way of being more faithful to Mewtwo's actual abilities (not to mention, much more fun).
And furthermore, increase the poor ******'s grab range. Mewtwo (the Psychic Pokemon) should not have a grab hitbox that only barely covers his hand. (Perhaps even make his grab disjointed slightly, both to more faithfully represent his abilities and to give him slightly easier access to his good set of throws.)
 
Last edited:

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
500
He could (and in my opinion, should) if Smash were willing to be a bit more adventurous with its movesets. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be his normals, just give his grabs and specials a greater emphasis on Mewtwo's signature telekinetic abilities. For instance, I've said in the past that Mewtwo's dinky Side-B should be replaced with a ranged command grab that can be combo'd off of. That'd be a perfect way of being more faithful to Mewtwo's actual abilities (not to mention, much more fun).
And furthermore, increase the poor ******'s grab range. Mewtwo (the Psychic Pokemon) should not have a grab hitbox that only barely covers his hand. (Perhaps even make his grab disjointed slightly, both to more faithfully represent his abilities and to give him slightly easier access to his good set of throws.)
I agree, Mewtwo could be more true to himself if Smash was "more adventurous with its movets". But then it's a general problem, you could say that for a lot of characters.
 

Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
See, this is weird to me; Ultimate's engine supposedly aims to be fast-paced and encourage aggression, yet in practice, campy, defensive play sure still seems to be the optimal strategy in this game. Hell, that's a big part of why I don't play Ultimate anymore. Games are an active medium, that's what sets them apart from TV and movies and the like. So if the better part of your game amounts to a staring contest between two players waiting to see who commits to an approach first, at the end of the day, I'm just gonna go play something else.
Something to comsider:

Nairo, known from his aggressive play, was widely successful in brawl, the game known for being too campy or defensive. He played the same there as he did in 4 and ultimate.

The beautiful thing about metagames is how they evolve sometimes. Melee has a rich history of evolution with strategies and characters changing and progressing and ultimately dying and being born. Brawl, though looked at in disgust now by newer players (and everyone besides former brawl vets), has had that same history.

MK is MK, ICs is one grab = death, etc., But did you know that ZSS won the last supermajor tourney brawl had? Salem won apex 2013 with ZSS, beating everyone with his incredible item play and a punish game that was top tier. Did you know that Japan brought a high level olimar meta to the states in 2010? Did you know that ike, toon link, D3, sonic, peach, ness, and more saw plenty of high level play?

All games have a RPS function where when people are used to fighting a particular style, they get blown up by someone playing differently. Brawl play was campy until Nairo and other people played aggressive and blew people up. Melee play is aggressive until hungrybox shows up. All games facilitate most playstyles.

Brawl isn't a combo game at all until you play Diddy.

Melee isn't a footsie game at all until you play marth or jiggly.

Ultimate isn't deep until the game stays unchanged for years like the above games. Or until you dive into Pac-Man, DHD, Peach, and etc.

I watched that vid and agree with it wholeheartedly. I never really paid attention to talk about the buffer system until that vid, and I understood in that moment why certain inputs did what they did.

Restrictive movement is a undecided point for me since I doubt that you can't find a solution with over 80 characters. I think Peach, Yoshi, Pikachu, sonic, Roy, and some others may be what people who love movement would want. But Idk, I don't play those characters.


For my critiques again, I just don't like the atmosphere of the game. Brawl had this incredibly community-driven vibe to it that was evident once you saw all the texture packs being used in tournaments. There was icon changes, UI changes, voice changes, and etc. Tons of literature to be read. No reliance on Nintendo for anything (and rightly so). This community to me, is to reliant on Nintendo to do everything. Why can't we edit the netcode and share it amongst each other? Why can't we have a communtiy-edition system patch where we fix the buffer, reduce input lag and etc? IDK, I feel like we need to make a fighter sandbox to be published on the switch store that's completely modifiable, so we can really be independent and make whatever we want.
 
Last edited:

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,118
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
NNID
TPitch5
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
I feel that Ultimate could've offered more kinds of Spirits. When you look at Kyogre and Groudon, they can be enhanced, and yet Rayquaza can't, despite Mega Rayquaza being a thing. A missed opportunity when you think about it.

In fact, if I could, I would've adjusted Rayquaza's Spirit to be as follows...

Spirit Type Class Slots Min Power Max Power Min Attack Max Attack Min Defense Max Defense Ability
Rayquaza Neutral Ace 3 2900 8700 1700 5100 1200 3600 Can Be Enhanced at Lv. 99
Mega Rayquaza Neutral Legend 3 5424 13560 2880 7200 1920 4800 Strong-Wind Immunity
Of course, this would result in Mega Rayquaza being the strongest primary spirit to have 3 support slots (surpassing Soma Cruz). And its power without Support Spirits would only be surpassed by Galeem and Dharkon.
 

SGoW

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
246
Smash 4’s results screen is all fine and dandy, but I would’ve preferred it be used for after you win a battle in Classic Mode, while normal battles retain the Brawl victory theme.
at least the result themes isn't Lifelight again, like every other song in the game
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
1,969
Location
Rivals of Aether, probably
NNID
ZeDiglett
Something to comsider:

Nairo, known from his aggressive play, was widely successful in brawl, the game known for being too campy or defensive. He played the same there as he did in 4 and ultimate.

The beautiful thing about metagames is how they evolve sometimes. Melee has a rich history of evolution with strategies and characters changing and progressing and ultimately dying and being born. Brawl, though looked at in disgust now by newer players (and everyone besides former brawl vets), has had that same history.

MK is MK, ICs is one grab = death, etc., But did you know that ZSS won the last supermajor tourney brawl had? Salem won apex 2013 with ZSS, beating everyone with his incredible item play and a punish game that was top tier. Did you know that Japan brought a high level olimar meta to the states in 2010? Did you know that ike, toon link, D3, sonic, peach, ness, and more saw plenty of high level play?

All games have a RPS function where when people are used to fighting a particular style, they get blown up by someone playing differently. Brawl play was campy until Nairo and other people played aggressive and blew people up. Melee play is aggressive until hungrybox shows up. All games facilitate most playstyles.

Brawl isn't a combo game at all until you play Diddy.

Melee isn't a footsie game at all until you play marth or jiggly.

Ultimate isn't deep until the game stays unchanged for years like the above games. Or until you dive into Pac-Man, DHD, Peach, and etc.

I watched that vid and agree with it wholeheartedly. I never really paid attention to talk about the buffer system until that vid, and I understood in that moment why certain inputs did what they did.

Restrictive movement is a undecided point for me since I doubt that you can't find a solution with over 80 characters. I think Peach, Yoshi, Pikachu, sonic, Roy, and some others may be what people who love movement would want. But Idk, I don't play those characters.
I guess I see where you're coming from, but the thing for me is that Ultimate doesn't even seem to have much room for creative play at all unless you're playing a top tier (and even then, most of the top tiers in this game default to just spamming their best moves in neutral and hoping something lands). The movement feels bogged down and stiff like I can't really move my character where I want them to (an issue I don't run into in Rivals, for instance), and very few characters even seem to have combos at all in this game. (And a good number of the ones who do either have piss-poor damage output like Bayo and Sheik, or just aren't good at anything else like Luigi.) Smash Ultimate is probably the only game I've ever played where I feel there isn't a character for me, which is astounding to me considering just how many of them there are to choose from.

All in all, I guess that sums up my whole problem with Ultimate; it's too restrictive. It feels like I can't do anything in this game unless the developers specifically intended me to. There are no creative combos in this game (with maybe Luigi being the sole exception with his cheesy ToD grab shenanigans), movement tech in general is super limited and barely existent, and the people who do like playing an aggressive, movement-oriented style just seem to get smothered by the overtly campy meta this game has. I'd love to see some of this stuff get changed, but at this point, I honestly don't have faith in Nintendo to make a good fighting game, which is a darn shame.
 
Last edited:

EGsmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
119
*inhales*

Ultimate is too tight on endlag/landing lag. Yes, I get they wanted a faster game, but unless you're playing at a pro level it just encourages spammy neutral play, especially with aerials.

Frame-perfect inputs at the 2-3 frame level is too fast for most casual players to access. Combined with nonsensical reversed cancels (e.g. dash cancel reverse F smash into Fair, or is it Bair? WHO KNOWS!?) at the 1-2 frame level and you end up with situations where you try to RAR but end up FAR instead, or if you're a casual masher going too fast, you end up RAR instead of FAR. Confused? Yeah, I thought so. The tightening up of the game in general has made formerly accessible techs (like Rosaluma's lunar landing, an absolute staple of Rosalina play) into a 50/50 guessing game whether you hit that 2-frame landing just right, especially on wifi, but also not on wifi. Have I mentioned how RAR fails half the time? I did? Oh ok.

I'm not going to get into how imbalanced and bad certain matchups are, or how certain characters get better landing frame data than others (looking at you, :ultjoker:, you poorly designed online weeb-carrying turd of a character). But all of that is exacerbated by the speed up of the game over 4. Sakurai was right - getting hopelessly comboed is not fun for players, yet he and his team enabled exactly that for a select few characters. Great job!

:ult_terry::ultryu::ultken: auto turn-around mechanic is one of the worst Smash mechanics. You don't need to worry about mixups with these characters - so many undeserved free combos and kills were cheesed out due to simply mashing A.

Finally, online still sucks. Always has, but now it's all we have. :ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultjoker::ultpalutena::ultmegaman::ultbanjokazooie: are all cancer online, carrying their players with endless spam and favorable frame data.
 

SGoW

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
246
A minor nitpick I have is how a feel some of the characters could use more vibrant colours. PAC-MAN and Mario stand out in this regard, as I feel their clothing (PAC-MAN's gloves and boots, Mario's shirt and cap) are rather subdued.
 

Terry Bogard

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
17
My only critique of Ultimate (and Smash in general) is more on the nitpicky side, but it's something I've thought of ever since the GC days. Look at games like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, and King of Fighters. They all have awesome aesthetics, soundtracks, and narrators that make the player feel hyped! Smash doesn't have that. They don't have a ton of epic rock (what you want to hear in a fight) or an action game aesthetic. The games listed above are all great examples of aesthetics in fighting games. I'd recommend looking up any entry from any of these series to see how the Smash aesthetic should look.
 
Last edited:

Gleam

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
574
Location
Burlington, NC
I'm going to say something very unpopular but I feel it needs to be said.

Personally, I think Ultimate focuses WAY too much on the professional or competitive level that it has all but resigned the casual level of play that a game should offer. As a "game" as something I"d just pick up and play casually, I think Smash Ultimate is boring as hell. The initial joy of being able to play as Ridley has long since died out and what I get is a game that doesn't offer 1/4 of the reward and variety that other games had.

I thought Smash4 had started taking a step back but Ultimate is a whole new level of effort I find lacking. I'm glad that more effort is being done to help balance the roster, making Ultimate by far the most balanced game yet. But there's no reason we couldn't have that and a crap load of content to play along the way. Smash to me, in the past, was as much fun to play by yourself as it was with others.

There's no reason we couldn't have 70+ characters and 900+ Spirits.

There's also no reason we couldn't have 700+ Trophies, 100+ cutscenes, 50 lines of dialogue, 300+ Custom Moves, Boss Mode, a 4th taunt on the D-pad and a non-clone Ganondorf. There's no reason that Ultimate should be as lacking as it does, whether it be the things I mentioned above or something entirely new.

Heck, there's no reason you couldn't at least have added text to the Spirits.

I find it amusing that Brawl, a game back in 2008, could incorporate a game with nearly 500 original, text filled trophies, 700 stickers (with a trophy reward for collecting them all) an 8+ hour longer story mode with over 100+ cut scenes and boss mode.

Yet Ultimate can barely push 5 cutscenes in a 20+ hour long game.

Yet people are still going to call "Ultimate" the "Best Smash Game Ever" because Hurr! Hurr! Pichu is in the game and Pichu is awesome. If the only thing you want from Smash is just to be competitively viable with a nice roster, than perhaps what Ultimate offers is enough. But I think Ultimate is boring and this franchise has proven itself far more capable of the content it produces.

With the issues going on in the world, I have to wonder how much fun you're all having with Ultimate now. How much fun is the game when you can't go to tournaments or perhaps even play with others. How doe sit feel being forced (if you wish to play with others) to use a vastly inferior Online mode?

I really hope that this isn't where the franchise is heading. It's tried to add some things such as "Stage Creator" but I expect more. I hope whether through patches or the next installment, we get the reward and variety we once had. You should expect so much more from your game than just "a lot of characters" you should expect the same level of effort we've always had+more.

There's no reason this game couldn't have it both ways, as both a casual game and as a competitive game.
 

Perkilator

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
2,644
Location
San Clemente, California
My only critique of Ultimate (and Smash in general) is more on the nitpicky side, but it's something I've thought of ever since the GC days. Look at games like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, and King of Fighters. They all have awesome aesthetics, soundtracks, and narrators that make the player feel hyped! Smash doesn't have that. They don't have a ton of epic rock (what you want to hear in a fight) or an action game aesthetic. The games listed above are all great examples of aesthetics in fighting games. I'd recommend looking up any entry from any of these series to see how the Smash aesthetic should look.
Okay, as much as I’d love Ultimate’s aesthetics to be closer to the box art and the “Everyone is Here!” poster, this seems more like a “Smash should be like this and nothing else!” kind of post. I like epic rock in video games as much as the next guy, but a Sakurai goes for different music styles for a reason (which I support).

I'm going to say something very unpopular but I feel it needs to be said.

Personally, I think Ultimate focuses WAY too much on the professional or competitive level that it has all but resigned the casual level of play that a game should offer. As a "game" as something I"d just pick up and play casually, I think Smash Ultimate is boring as hell. The initial joy of being able to play as Ridley has long since died out and what I get is a game that doesn't offer 1/4 of the reward and variety that other games had.

I thought Smash4 had started taking a step back but Ultimate is a whole new level of effort I find lacking. I'm glad that more effort is being done to help balance the roster, making Ultimate by far the most balanced game yet. But there's no reason we couldn't have that and a crap load of content to play along the way. Smash to me, in the past, was as much fun to play by yourself as it was with others.

There's no reason we couldn't have 70+ characters and 900+ Spirits.

There's also no reason we couldn't have 700+ Trophies, 100+ cutscenes, 50 lines of dialogue, 300+ Custom Moves, Boss Mode, a 4th taunt on the D-pad and a non-clone Ganondorf. There's no reason that Ultimate should be as lacking as it does, whether it be the things I mentioned above or something entirely new.

Heck, there's no reason you couldn't at least have added text to the Spirits.

I find it amusing that Brawl, a game back in 2008, could incorporate a game with nearly 500 original, text filled trophies, 700 stickers (with a trophy reward for collecting them all) an 8+ hour longer story mode with over 100+ cut scenes and boss mode.

Yet Ultimate can barely push 5 cutscenes in a 20+ hour long game.

Yet people are still going to call "Ultimate" the "Best Smash Game Ever" because Hurr! Hurr! Pichu is in the game and Pichu is awesome. If the only thing you want from Smash is just to be competitively viable with a nice roster, than perhaps what Ultimate offers is enough. But I think Ultimate is boring and this franchise has proven itself far more capable of the content it produces.

With the issues going on in the world, I have to wonder how much fun you're all having with Ultimate now. How much fun is the game when you can't go to tournaments or perhaps even play with others. How doe sit feel being forced (if you wish to play with others) to use a vastly inferior Online mode?

I really hope that this isn't where the franchise is heading. It's tried to add some things such as "Stage Creator" but I expect more. I hope whether through patches or the next installment, we get the reward and variety we once had. You should expect so much more from your game than just "a lot of characters" you should expect the same level of effort we've always had+more.

There's no reason this game couldn't have it both ways, as both a casual game and as a competitive game.
TL;DR I’m also sad there aren’t more cutscenes in WoL, more bosses, or even flavor text for the Spirits. But I dint play Ultimate to compare it to past games (in fact, I’m glad Trophies are gone because Sakurai explained that it’s more work than one may realize). I judge it as it’s own entity, and while it could’ve been better, absolutely, judging people for liking it makes it seems like they should always share your feelings.

It’s fine if you don’t like Ultimate. But it’s easier to just say you don’t like it than to judge not only the people who do like it, but the people who spent three years working on a game for a console that, while more powerful than the Wii, still has to deal with a cartridge (and I think they did great with what they had to work with).
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
500
There's no reason we couldn't have 70+ characters and 900+ Spirits.

There's also no reason we couldn't have 700+ Trophies, 100+ cutscenes, 50 lines of dialogue, 300+ Custom Moves, Boss Mode, a 4th taunt on the D-pad and a non-clone Ganondorf. There's no reason that Ultimate should be as lacking as it does, whether it be the things I mentioned above or something entirely new.
I would have loved it. But there is "no reasons" except time constraints, number of employees, and so one.

Heck, there's no reason you couldn't at least have added text to the Spirits.
I totally agree.
 

scoobymcsnack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
458
There's also no reason we couldn't have 700+ Trophies, 100+ cutscenes, 50 lines of dialogue, 300+ Custom Moves, Boss Mode, a 4th taunt on the D-pad and a non-clone Ganondorf. There's no reason that Ultimate should be as lacking as it does, whether it be the things I mentioned above or something entirely new.
This isn't true. All of those take time and money to do, both of which are limited.


All of those sound great and would definitely make the game even better, but to say there's "no reason" that they aren't in the game is incorrect.
 

SGoW

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
246
My only critique of Ultimate (and Smash in general) is more on the nitpicky side, but it's something I've thought of ever since the GC days. Look at games like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, and King of Fighters. They all have awesome aesthetics, soundtracks, and narrators that make the player feel hyped! Smash doesn't have that. They don't have a ton of epic rock (what you want to hear in a fight) or an action game aesthetic. The games listed above are all great examples of aesthetics in fighting games. I'd recommend looking up any entry from any of these series to see how the Smash aesthetic should look.
I don't really think Rock is the sort of Smash needs, don't get me wrong I love myself some rock in video games, I listen to Crush 40 on a regular basis, but I just don't it's sort of thing that would fit the tone Smash is going for.

Though this is a good excuse to talk about music in Smash which I feel is a huge issue. Starting in Melee the games had a main theme, though this wasn't really realised until Brawl, as Melee not only had two of them, but they were also used fairly infrequently. Brawl expanded on this with one single main theme, that was somewhat frequently, but still left room for original songs to get in. 4 is where the Main Theme started to become an issue in my opinion, as it was all over the place, almost every original song in the game was the main theme, nonetheless I didn't mind it here as I feel that Sm4sh has the best main theme, there were still a few original songs, and some of the songs did a good job with doing something unique with the main theme. The point where I felt this all of this became a major issue was Ultimate. Lifelight is only okay, and hearing it everywhere in the game is just annoying, especially when all of the versions of the song don't do anything interesting with it. At this point I'm quite sick of it, and it's only been in one game(!).

Another issue I have is the remixes of songs. Most of the time they're just the original song but sped up and with a different set of instruments, it feels lazy, and if they're going to do that they might as well just remaster the original song, or (novel idea here) just reuse the original song. No Sakurai, I don't care about you're bull**** excuse that the songs weren't suited to fighting when you thought Magicant, 7PM, and Enviromental Noises were suitable remixes, just give the original Banjo-Kazooie ost.

I'm not saying all the remixes are bad, F-ZERO Medley stands out as one of my favourite remixes in the series, but that did something unique, that combined multiple songs, arranged them in a unique style, and had Takenobu Mitsuyoshi (the guy from Daytona USA) singing over it. Most remixes are nowhere as unique as this. I didn't feel this was much of an issue until Ultimate, where most remixes just started to feel samey. If there's one good thing that I can say about this though, it's helped me appreciate the remixes in Ultimate that I do like a lot more.
 

EGsmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
119
Oh, one more huge nitpick... The lighting in the game is WAAAAY too dark on certain stages.

If you've ever played against a dark alt character (:ultgnw::ultjoker: especially) on a dark lighting / dark background stage (like any Metroid stage), there is almost no contrast between the character and the background, making it extremely difficult to track your opponent. Combine that with all the extraneous effects (launch smoke, KO blasts, FREAKING CONFETTI!?) and it makes Ultimate one of the visually messiest games to play. I can't tell you how many people I've seen put down their controller never to play the game again because "I can't tell what the heck is going on". Big 'F' on visual design.
 

chikin

Coin Collector
Premium
Joined
Feb 2, 2020
Messages
64
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
I wish the game had better online. Less lag overall and less spammy characters like Samus or Banjo. I would do something about the projectile spammers to make them less annoying to fight.
 
Last edited:

UserKev

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
1,844
Is that really the best name they could come up with? They just took Super Mario Bros. & replace Mario with Smash, how lazy. At least Super Nintendo Bros would've better summed up the game but would still sound stupid.
Smash Bros, I actually think is a good title name and an amazing nod of its inspiration to Super Mario Bros, Smash being a Nintendo I.P. Its just missing unique end slogans. Like how Smash 64, Melee, Brawl. Wtf happened to that creativity?! Anyone can come up with anything better than "Wii U/3DS" Sakurai is seriously losing his marbles.

In terms of a title naming tho, I like Super Nintendo Brawl.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,118
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
NNID
TPitch5
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
I wish the game had better online. Less lag overall and less spammy characters like Samus or Banjo. I would do something about the projectile spammers to make them less annoying to fight.
I will say that Banjo's Wonderwing is extremely annoying to deal with. Because there's no telling when he's going to use that move, you can't risk leaving yourself wide-open at any point; that pretty much turns a match against Banjo into a bait and punish bout.

It also doesn't help that very few fighters can actually counter Wonderwing or use the attack to their advantage. Counters don't work, since Wonderwing's invincibility blocks all damage taken. In fact, the only dependable counter moves to use against Wonderwing are Revenge and Rebel's Guard; while Counter Throw does completely negate Wonderwing's invincibility, it's not guaranteed to work, due to its short counter window, and the attack has to specifically hit the Mii Brawler's arm as well.

At least for Luigi, he can completely shut down Wonderwing with his grabs, but even then, you still have to anticipate the attack coming your way.
 

scoobymcsnack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
458
Smash Bros, I actually think is a good title name and an amazing nod of its inspiration to Super Mario Bros, Smash being a Nintendo I.P. Its just missing unique end slogans. Like how Smash 64, Melee, Brawl. Wtf happened to that creativity?! Anyone can come up with anything better than "Wii U/3DS" Sakurai is seriously losing his marbles.

In terms of a title naming tho, I like Super Nintendo Brawl.
A YouTuber, 99% sure it was Scott the Woz, actually did a good job at explaining why, as lame as their, for Wii U/3DS are the best names for the games. They're too similar to be called something completely different, but they're too different to be called the same name.
 
Last edited:

UserKev

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
1,844
A YouTuber, 99% sure it was Scott the Woz, actually did a good job at explaining why, as lame as their, for Wii U/3DS are the best names for the games. They're too similar to be called something completely different, but they're too different to be called the same name.
They could have easily done Super Smash Bros. Strife (Wii U) edition. Super Smash Bros. Strife (3DS) edition, for example. There's literally no excuse not to use a totally Smash appropriate end slogan. But I guess by the series becoming so gigantic, it doesn't matter anymore.

God, some choices these game developers make, I will never understand.
 

MarioRayFalcon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
217
3DS FC
4098-6207-4994
The people who spent three years working on a game for a console that, while more powerful than the Wii, still has to deal with a cartridge (and I think they did great with what they had to work with).
Don't cry for them. Sakurai is a single person and he does not represent the hundreds of people with help from other companies who get paid to program one game.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom