Corneria, Mute City, and Pokefloats

[EPsilon933]

Almost any sensible person will tell you that they are not trying to make the game more fun, they are trying to make them more competitive. They're *****es because they complain about any advantage a stage allows and demand that it must be banned.

They're banning stages for the wrong reasons. Stages shouldn't be banned based on how they affect characters. Jigglypuff is good regardless of the stage. Kirby is bad regardless of the stage

I haven't actually read the arguments in this thread, as I'm certain I've seen them all before and I'm pretty sure I've seen all of them refuted in spectacular fashion.

Smashers refute everything that isn't written up by a back room.

 

[Cadency]

You can fall through pokemon stadium too! LOL let's ban that. -_-

It doesn't happen nearly as often

 

[Rykard]

people fall through battlefield's edges more than people fall through the one spot on pokefloats. It's so easy to avoid it that it makes no sense why people are arguing against that one aspect.

 

[Wretched]

people fall through battlefield's edges more than people fall through the one spot on pokefloats. It's so easy to avoid it that it makes no sense why people are arguing against that one aspect.

When they're playing Taj

 

[MattDotZeb]

Hey everyone. So i noticed that there was an absence of stage discussion going on on the melee forums, so i figured i would bring up the sort of abolishment of Corneria, Mute City, and Pokefloats from competitive play for open discussion.

Guess what 3 stages are completely legal at Mass Madness.

 

[Rykard]

When they're playing Taj

i don't mean by mewtwo's Confusion. I mean that the edges are glitchy and most characters can fail to grab the ledge because of this. This generally happens to peach players the most for whatever reason but it's happened to me numerous times

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Almost any sensible person will tell you that they are not trying to make the game more fun, they are trying to make them more competitive. They're *****es because they complain about any advantage a stage allows and demand that it must be banned.

Why do you play competitively? To have fun.
Obviously competition is more important than fun in topics like this, but when the stages add NO competitive depth, there is no point having them just for the sake of having more stages.

The stages are not needed in competition, as the normal CPs can do the same things just fine.

 

[Tee ay eye]

When they're playing Taj

Kidnapping people under BF isn't even that good. People just don't know how to jump and bair or steal the edge

neutrals are just as bad as CP's in some matchups

Like...?

Personally, I think the 6 original neutrals should be the only stages allowed, and each player gets 1 ban.

I agree wholeheartedly

I hate all stages that aren't the 6 original neutrals.

And I hate all people that pick them.

 

[Merkuri]

They're banning stages for the wrong reasons. Stages shouldn't be banned based on how they affect characters. Jigglypuff is good regardless of the stage. Kirby is bad regardless of the stage



.

Aren't you the one who said that those stages should be banned in the first placed? This sounds contradictory. Stages have to be banned on how they affect stages.

Fox is broken on maybe half the stages because he can laser camp as well as wave shine, the idea that stages shouldn't be banned based on how they affect characters is nonsensical.

Why do you play competitively? To have fun.
Obviously competition is more important than fun in topics like this, but when the stages add NO competitive depth, there is no point having them just for the sake of having more stages.

The stages are not needed in competition, as the normal CPs can do the same things just fine.

You're the one who said that the stages were banned to make them more fun. I was just poinint out that thought was stupid.

Those stages do add more competitive depth, they allow for more variety in counter pick, the extra counter picks themselves add a layer of depth to the game. And I do think having fun is important to the ruleset.

Many people go to tournaments to have fun while playing with others, it is dumb for you to think that everyone who went to tournaments like Pound 4 or Apex hoped they were going to win. It's not realistic. Some middle ground between fun and competitiveness should be met.

 

[EPsilon933]

Aren't you the one who said that those stages should be banned in the first placed? This sounds contradictory. Stages have to be banned on how they affect stages.

Fox is broken on maybe half the stages because he can laser camp as well as wave shine, the idea that stages shouldn't be banned based on how they affect characters is nonsensical.

Slight exaggeration maybe, but the point is we should focus on keeping/improving competitive gameplay, not character balance.

 

[Pi]

Slight exaggeration maybe, but the point is we should focus on keeping/improving competitive gameplay, not character balance.

wat

character balance (as in how it relates to CP's) is certainly a major factor in competitive play.

I certainly don't feel that the CP's we have now should be removed at any rate.

 

[EPsilon933]

wat

character balance (as in how it relates to CP's) is certainly a major factor in competitive play.

I certainly don't feel that the CP's we have now should be removed at any rate.

At the cost of dumb gameplay? No way! I'm not going to want to tolerate something like fin camping during a tournament set. It's stupid. But regarding the current cp's, they're less dumb, but still dumb. Anyone want to camp extra hard on Konjo Jungle 64? Or we can play tag on Rainbow Cruise instead of fighting in a fighting game. Yeah there's still skill, but it's so dumb. You can clearly tell I'm raging at the moment. I quit this game. Anyone here play wii-fi Brawl?

 

[Pi]

At the cost of dumb gameplay? No way! I'm not going to want to tolerate something like fin camping during a tournament set. It's stupid. But regarding the current cp's, they're less dumb, but still dumb. Anyone want to camp extra hard on Konjo Jungle 64? Or we can play tag on Rainbow Cruise instead of fighting in a fighting game. Yeah there's still skill, but it's so dumb. You can clearly tell I'm raging at the moment. I quit this game. Anyone here play wii-fi Brawl?

you can't camp unless you get the lead first, and I'm not really promoting the return of mute city, corneria, or poke floats because it can promote dumb gameplay

but at the same time there are flaws in all of those strategies, lunin tried to do it to armada remember, and SS disposed of shinobi on mute iirc

 

[ArstNeio]

Are non-standard stages really that "bad" and "unfun" and "random" and "gay"? Or is it because we simply don't play them enough? I feel like generally controversial stages often are thought to be this way because they aren't standard, so people play on them less, so they know less about the stage, and then they whine.

I also fail to see why stages ought not be part of the metagame just because they aren't standard; some people seem to think that we should just go with one stage like Battlefield and then play the game like that. That's basically the logical extension of the "hey we only need neutrals" argument; why even bother learning other stages if you believe that stage knowledge and ability to utilize stage hazards ought not be part of the game?

I don't think a 29 stage strike will result in a stage that's terribly skewed for Fox. Sure, your first stage will likely be more in favor of Fox, but it won't be terrible. And then it becomes an attitude issue: is the stage that you're playing on terribly imbalanced in favor of Fox? Or is it the most balanced stage of the matchup, and all the other stages imbalanced against Fox?

Regardless much of the Melee community is willing to give up all aspects of the stage metagame in favor of a character metagame. I personally disagree with crippling a game for no reason other than perceived gayness, but unfortunately that's what the community wants; not much we can do.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're the one who said that the stages were banned to make them more fun. I was just poinint out that thought was stupid.

*Sigh*
How do I explain this...
I was pointing out why the stages aren't allowed just for the sake of "lolmorestageslol". If the stages add no competitive depth (which I addressed below) there is no reason to have them unless they are stages that are genuinely wanted by the community.

Long story short: You interpreted my post wrong.

Those stages do add more competitive depth, they allow for more variety in counter pick, the extra counter picks themselves add a layer of depth to the game. And I do think having fun is important to the ruleset.

Any competitive depth they add is compromised by the amount of degenerate gameplay they cause. For example: Corneria being legal promotes quite hard camping. You cannot seriously suggest that that should be considered "competitive depth".

Many people go to tournaments to have fun while playing with others, it is dumb for you to think that everyone who went to tournaments like Pound 4 or Apex hoped they were going to win. It's not realistic. Some middle ground between fun and competitiveness should be met.

Erm...
When did I say anything about people only playing to win?

 

[KAOSTAR]

You can fall through pokemon stadium too! LOL let's ban that. -_-

Lets ban all the stages because m2 can pull you through bf stadium mute city kongo any platform hella different pokemon on floats, the boat on rainbow no commas etc etc.

ppl is just fallin through everything lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I ran a tournament last month with corneria, mute city, and floats as legal stages. Tom R beat Cosmo because of mute city, and then went on to beat tink and kels (in 2 sets) all in a row

also, i lost on corneria to kirkq but i cped it lmao

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you can't camp unless you get the lead first, and I'm not really promoting the return of mute city, corneria, or poke floats because it can promote dumb gameplay

projectiles give you that percent lead also port 1 does too think of KJ64 port 1 and 2 port onestarts with nair port 2 is in lag still from from spranwing when they jump and has less than normal amount of time to do anything. it's not 100% but still it's impossible to react to same if they wanted to run up and grab.

camp all you have to do is make sure you can't get hit, min. risks and that they aren't in the lead I don't know about you but if I ran down the lcok on KJ64 i'd replay it just as campy. I don't get bored really i've played a 7 minute match as falcon vs marth on FD once time doesn't really set in and make me want to hurry up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've never seen Foxes run around the stage lasering their opponent to death on Pokefloats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

 

[0Room]

people fall through battlefield's edges more than people fall through the one spot on pokefloats. It's so easy to avoid it that it makes no sense why people are arguing against that one aspect.

I totally agree with the Op and Rykard.
I feel that people just don't play on Floats so they're unfamiliar with the stage. That said, they don't want to admit that it's their weakness and default to the first option that gives them what they want: banning the stage.
So they go "oh you can fall through the seal through a hole that's one pixel wide"!
Come on guys, if you're not good at the stage, just say so. But it doesn't mean it needs to banned.

Like someone else said earlier, stages are a part of the metagame as much as anything. PP and I argued about this for a while, and I came to the conclusion that stages are pieces of a strategy. People play differently on every stage due to its inevitable differences from other stages. Picking a stage and knowing how that person will play on that stage is simply part of a larger strategy of winning.

Corneria and Floats are both favorites in my circles, and I don't think that they should have been banned. I don't play much Mute City, so I can't say, but both of those stages are fun and pretty fair from what I've experienced/seen. I have seen 1 [ONE] person fall through Pokefloats in my entire life [ in a video, not even in my experience playing], so that is nowhere near a good enough reason to ban. I've fallen through Stadium before, but not Pokefloats. Corneria did give me problems as a Falcon on that fin, but that's again just part of the stage. GTFO off that fin if you don't wanna be on it. Life goes on.

I see some of the arguments, and some of them are valid, but in a majority ruling, the justification is insufficient for the banning.