Confirmed - Zelda's multi hits escapable. Again.

[Zone]

Way to steal my thunder and be smarter than me, Zone. Ugh. Lol.



Yeah. This is what is killing us: http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol4_page3.jsp

Well, not that page exactly, but the title seemed to fit. The main point of the articles though is:

Sakurai wants noobs to be able to beat pros, and he's forcing randomness into the game to do so.

:\ Interesting. Also explains why you get a smash ball if you get 4 stocks behind.

 

[Drake3]

This is actually all giving me a headache because this is all going around in one giant, stupid circle, and as Zelda players, we're all on the same freaking side. Do we all wish the move was better? Yes. Is it? No.

There. Ok. What do you want us to do about it?

The only difference between the two sides is that some are trying to work around it and some are not.

that's not solid proof that's speculation. Wavedashing could only be gone because 1.) It's a new fighting engine. Which is why they had to recreate melee stages, instead of just copying them over. 2.) He may have intentionally took it out again speculation 3.) You can't aim your air dodge, i'm sure you know this. This is the #1 reason we know wavedashing is out. we don't know 100% solid proof that he did that to take it out.

Answer my question and you'll see it like I do. But I will gladly elaborate if I must.

Luthien the word you're looking for is "competitive".

 

[Ztarfish]

Sorry, I haven't read all I missed, I'll catch up after this point. I just want to say that it's a little insulting that people are creating the 'divide' between Zelda players. I don't care that her Fsmash is not much different than Melee? I don't care that two perfectly good smashes have now suddenly have the potential yet again to be useless? We're all playing the same character here regardless of what style we prefer to play.

Like Iris, I play to win. I may play 4 player FFA with items on full blast, but that by no means indicates that I put no stock in my ability and my willingness to win. But unlike those who are voicing their opinions vocally, I am accepting what I am given. This is the main difference between us, not how much 'stock' we put in consistent smashes. So the chicken noodle soup has no chicken, doesn't mean it tastes bad. In fact chicken (though a key ingredient in chicken noodle soup) adds very little taste. The base, herbs, and vegetables are in the end what give it it's wonderful flavor. Am I disappointed there's no chicken? Of course, how dare you say I'm not. Am I going to bite the hand that feeds me? No.

 

[Zone]

This is actually all giving me a headache because this is all going around in one giant, stupid circle, and as Zelda players, we're all on the same freaking side. Do we all wish the move was better? Yes. Is it? No.

There. Ok. What do you want us to do about it?

The only difference between the two sides is that some are trying to work around it and some are not.

No it's not 2 sides. One wants to work around it, and the other doesn't. That's completely false. Ryoko is just stating Evidence that you can smash DI it now. He complained but who wouldn't complain when one of the reasons zelda sucked in melee is back? Sure other things are buffed, but those two moves could still potentially be useless. Now we aren't saying We won't work around it. OF course we'll work around it. For people like me and ryoko to play a crappy character we understand that we have to work with what we got. Cuz That's exactly what I did in Melee. But some people's reasoning about how the competive scene works is totally bogus. There is one side arguing "It isn't that bad" When it really is. Both sides are willing to work around the gimp. The other side is saying "Hell yes it is, have you not have people pwn you with smash DI in melee? have you not played highly technical and smart players?"

Answer my question and you'll see it like I do. But I will gladly elaborate if I must.

Luthien the word you're looking for is "competitive".

How many other things were changed so drastically?

You are completely ignoring my valid point. Your reasoning is. "Oh it's gone now, it must've been intentional"

Is your speculation right? I don't know.

But it's just that. Speculation.
You aren't on the development team, you didn't hear their discussions for brawl.
So don't talk like what your saying its as concrete for evidence as 100,000 people seeing Chuck Norris assassinate Bush on Video. and it's covered on the News. Because what you are saying is not 100% full blown evidence.

I agree with you. He probably did just "Take it out" But don't talk like it's solid proof cuz it's not. I speculate the same way you do for it. But I look at the opposing side, and the validation of my evidence. and frankly speculation DOES NOT = evidence.

 

[Drake3]

that's not solid proof that's speculation. Wavedashing could only be gone because 1.) It's a new fighting engine. Which is why they had to recreate melee stages, instead of just copying them over. 2.) He may have intentionally took it out again speculation 3.) You can't aim your air dodge, i'm sure you know this. This is the #1 reason we know wavedashing is out. we don't know 100% solid proof that he did that to take it out.

1) That has nothing to do with it. The purpose of a new engine is so things are improved. Things are added, not subtracted. Everything else was translated perfectly, even the actual air dodge movement. But the actual structure/design/principle/concept was changed.
2) Correct.
3) Correct. The only basic technique to have a drastic change.

You're right, it's speculation. But it's speculation with logic and evidence. I could honestly go on forever about this one, because before we saw Brawl I was thinking about how you could remove wavedash but keep it's components. Keep short-hop; keep airdodge, but remove wavedashing. I couldn't come up with a solution. And then we learned that they changed how airdodging works so that it was fundamentally impossible to wavedash, but you could still short hop and airdodge, and I said "That's brilliant."

Too much work went into something like that for it to be a stupid coincidence.

 

[Ztarfish]

I'm sure that it was intentional on the part of the developers to keep her Smashes DIable. To (liberally) quote Ryoko, you'd have to be completely ******** to think that her Smashes were good. Unlike Ryoko however, I don't actually think they are ********, just trying to think of balance. How this works into balance I have no idea, but it was the choice of the developers. If Zelda were mostly the same, then I would completely understand your belief that they just let her smashes slip by. But when virtually EVERYTHING about Zelda has changed, there is no reason to believe they didn't put as much thought into her Smashes as they did the rest of her.

And while you may be pointing out legitimate facts and flaws to her moves, what does that ultimately achieve? If it achieves very little it is complaint. Complaint will get you nowhere. No offense to Ryoko as he has created some incredibly wonderful informational topics and he is no doubt an extremely valued and extremely experienced Zelda player, but how long will you dwell on this before you move on? What we're saying is yeah it sucks. It sucks hard. But it's done. Move on.

 

[Zone]

1) That has nothing to do with it. The purpose of a new engine is so things are improved. Things are added, not subtracted. Everything else was translated perfectly, even the actual air dodge movement. But the actual structure/design/principle/concept was changed.
2) Correct.
3) Correct. The only basic technique to have a drastic change.

You're right, it's speculation. But it's speculation with logic and evidence. I could honestly go on forever about this one, because before we saw Brawl I was thinking about how you could remove wavedash but keep it's components. Keep short-hop; keep airdodge, but remove wavedashing. I couldn't come up with a solution. And then we learned that they changed how airdodging works so that it was fundamentally impossible to wavedash, but you could still short hop and airdodge, and I said "That's brilliant."

Too much work went into something like that for it to be a stupid coincidence.

Do you know what a new engine does? It's a completely recreated game. When some games that are 2-D transfer to a sequel they'll sometimes keep the exact same engine changing barely anything. Brawl looks changed dramatically in multiple ways. people are floatier, fox's gun blows up if you spam lasers apparently, you trip, you don't have to lcancel just fast fall and it l-cancels for you, you don't have to use any skill to aim ur whip type recover move. In general, the physics are noticebly different. Creating a new engine is like creating a new car, Lots of companies got rid of the 5.0 engine like in the mustangs, even though ALOT of people loved it. When you create a new something in the same genre, alot of things are going to change, the only thing that doesn't is it's basic general big picture. It's a car, with a engine. But it's completely different.

If the game was just changed with a few aspects, They definantly would not have had to recreate melee stages which sakurai clearly explained he had to do in one of his updates for melee stages. "We’ve tried to create an exact replica, but there may be a few areas that differ from the last game. I hope you understand."
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/stage18.html

He didn't add as you mentioned, or subtract. He started from scratch. That's my point about the engine.

Did you not listen to exactly why wavedash doesn't work? lol
You can't aim your air dodge. Wavedashing is where you jump, and before you leave the ground you air dodge diagnally so that you slide in that directoin. Well you can't do that if you can't aim ur airdodge. It's as simple as that. It's nothing spetacular. You just change how airdodge works, and bye bye Wavedash.

 

[Drake3]

No it's not 2 sides. One wants to work around it, and the other doesn't. That's completely false. Ryoko is just stating Evidence that you can smash DI it now. He complained but who wouldn't complain when one of the reasons zelda sucked in melee is back? Sure other things are buffed, but those two moves could still potentially be useless. Now we aren't saying We won't work around it. OF course we'll work around it. For people like me and ryoko to play a crappy character we understand that we have to work with what we got. Cuz That's exactly what I did in Melee. But some people's reasoning about how the competive scene works is totally bogus. There is one side arguing "It isn't that bad" When it really is. Both sides are willing to work around the gimp. The other side is saying "Hell yes it is, have you not have people pwn you with smash DI in melee? have you not played highly technical and smart players?"

No, it's completely true. One side wants to dwell on it, ***** and moan, and expect, even though nothing changed in 6 years, for it to suddenly, magically be better. Yes, Ryoko stated that it will be possible to Smash DI these attacks again, like you could since the newer version of Melee came out. Your next sentence makes no sense to me. And last I checked, we all play a "crappy character", thank you. Not just you and Ryoko. I know that it sucks. I do wish it was different. It's sad when a CPU can DI out of your smash attack. But I can't change that. You can't. Nobody but they can. And it looks like they never will. And I'll point out that when I said "work around it" I mean, trying to see a silver lining. As in the buffs given to her other areas.

And let me just point out that it's...how do I phrase this, idiotic for the competitive side to expect the casual side to understand the magnitude of this problem. Not everybody's faced the best. Some are just happy that all of Zelda's attacks don't suck *** this time. And you shouldn't try to destroy that.

^- And I'm apparently not getting through to you, so just forget it.

 

[Ztarfish]

I'm really done with this. Like Drake said we all keep repeating the same things.
Let me leave with just this thought:
Nothing about Zelda has been nerfed.

 

[Zone]

No, it's completely true. One side wants to dwell on it, ***** and moan, and expect, even though nothing changed in 6 years, for it to suddenly, magically be better. Yes, Ryoko stated that it will be possible to Smash DI these attacks again, like you could since the newer version of Melee came out. Your next sentence makes no sense to me. And last I checked, we all play a "crappy character", thank you. Not just you and Ryoko. I know that it sucks. I do wish it was different. It's sad when a CPU can DI out of your smash attack. But I can't change that. You can't. Nobody but they can. And it looks like they never will.

And let me just point out that it's...how do I phrase this, idiotic for the competitive side to expect the casual side to understand the magnitude of this problem. Not everybody's faced the best. Some are just happy that all of Zelda's attacks don't suck *** this time. And you shouldn't try to destroy that.

Alright now we don't gotta throw out the insults. And I was talkinga bout me and ryoko as in the sense we are on the side I mentioned "We'll work around it, because obviously we'll have to. But we can still be unhappy about 2 moves becoming nearly possibly useless" I wasn't talking like only me and ryoko play zelda. Don't put words in my mouth.

Ugh... nevermind. I don't agree with debating over someone who's going to get hot headed. I never ment any ill will and apparently you mean it toward me. So there is no point in continuing this. And if you know that it sucks, and know it's sad to see you can DI out of it. Then why the heck are you arguing back? This woulda been done and over with. If you had just let people express their opinions, and not stab them in the back with it.

"I don't like how u can escape it again "

Random person "Don't complain, it's not that bad work around it."
Don't complain is a indirect insult. You're basically calling them a cry baby by my standards. But if people never complained, this world would be way different. and possibly not for the best. We complained about the incident in the boston tea party to get it resolved. If people complain about something it could potentiall get resolved sometime in the future. NEVER complaining will most likely never result in a solution to ur problem.

Coulda been ended if the comment responding to that ideal was instead.
"Yea it sucks, but oh well."
You agree, and are show your opinioin that you don't really care. which doesn't attack the person pov at all. Therefore they won't need to back up reasons on why they are complaining. if you call them one.

Your right, it's hard to explain how frustrating it can be to fight Fox as Zelda, with his spamming lazers, and waveshining in melee to a casual player. And that ur upsmash and f-smash were useless to him. Obviously if you walked the same path of getting owned because of ur characters flaws over and over and over again. You'd see that I for one don't want to be playing a character I like, and being limited all over again. Did I enjoy playing zelda anyways? Yes, but I still had those frustrating times of getting 4stocked by foxes that if they got 1 shine off your taking liek 60%dmg. and dying by ceiling K.O. at 70%ish to his upsmash which was easily combo'd into no matther how high or low zelda's dmg was.

Anyways I never ment to upset anyone. I was just stating my pov and evidence, and failed to see how speculation counts as solid evidence. There is evidence, and solid evidence. Speculation falls int he first category.

 

[Ztarfish]

Ok I lied I am visiting this thread again.
Stooooop. Noww. I don't think you realize how unpleasant this board is going to be if we are going to split about something so trivial in the grander scheme of things.

So stop. Now.

 

[darkatma]

It's not too great to see that the brawl zelda forums are affected by the same idiocy that runs rampant throughout most of the brawl section of smashboards -_-
I won't direct it at anyone in particular, but I think progress isn't based on circular logic and repetition of the same ideas.

And, though this is purely opinion, zelda lost a lot when NTSC version 0.01 and 0.02 came out. Well, at least I used 0.00. Multi-hit moves made SDI-able make for easily escapable hits. This is why I switched to sheik main, zelda secondary. Of course, with the start of this game, both me and Kawn (norcal zeldas) hope to be able to play competitively with zelda... and it's not as easily going to happen if zelda still has no viable fast hitboxes for her kills.

 

[Drake3]

Alright now we don't gotta throw out the insults. And I was talkinga bout me and ryoko as in the sense we are on the side I mentioned "We'll work around it, because obviously we'll have to. But we can still be unhappy about 2 moves becoming nearly possibly useless" I wasn't talking like only me and ryoko play zelda. Don't put words in my mouth.

I wasn't trying to insult anybody. I just sort of reached a realisation that it's illogical for you and Ryoko to try and force people who don't understand, to agree with you.

And if you know that it sucks, and know it's sad to see you can DI out of it. Then why the heck are you arguing back? This woulda been done and over with. If you had just let people express their opinions, and not stab them in the back with it.

I've been agreeing for pages, because I happen to agree with both sides. Which makes sense because I'm sort of inbetween the casual and competitive when it comes to Melee. I've never been to a tournament but I have alot of friends who know their stuff. My crazy, asian friends in particular, are very good.

"I don't like how u can escape it again "

Random person "Don't complain, it's not that bad work around it."
Don't complain is a indirect insult. You're basically calling them a cry baby by my standards. But if people never complained, this world would be way different. and possibly not for the best. We complained about the incident in the boston tea party to get it resolved. If people complain about something it could potentiall get resolved sometime in the future. NEVER complaining will most likely never result in a solution to ur problem.

I don't think that's what anybody ever said. I see alot of "Yeah that sucks But look on the bright side! :D *throws Din's Fire*". I know that you can complain, feel free to complain, but complaining in this situation will achieve nothing. You should try going to Nintendo and saying "I want Zelda's attacks to be better." It even looks ridiculous as I type it. It sucks, I agree, life sucks, and that's the way it is. We're all disappointed but clearly on different levels.

Anyways I never ment to upset anyone. I was just stating my pov and evidence, and failed to see how speculation counts as solid evidence. There is evidence, and solid evidence. Speculation falls int he first category.

Ok fine, I agree. I didn't mean to upset you either. But you should know that long explanations can come off as be-littling. And I really have to point out that when I said "work around it" I meant see the silver lining in this problem (Zelda getting buffed in other places). We'll all unfortunately be working around it in play.

 

[Wind Owl]

Two things:

1. Didn't DI in general change from Melee 1.0 to Melee 1.0+? From what I know (I could be wrong) they didn't change Zelda's Fsmash and Usmash at all, the attacks just reacted to another change that they made, probably for a completely different reason. What I'm trying to say is, not only is it entirely possible that this is unintentional, but I would call it likely. Also, 'Smash DI' is probably just an abuse of regular DI, that is to say they're the same mechanic but we call them something different because they're executed differently. For DI, the game probably reads where the analog stick is now (the current frame) and where it was the frame before, converts this difference into a speed, and adds it (multiplied by a certain factor) to your current speed. If the stick goes from zero to max in one frame, the effect is going to be a lot more pronounced. So odds are, Sakurai created DI that way and didn't even think about Smash DI. And yes, he could have heard of Smash DI from competitive players, but really, the only way (that I can think of) to fix Smash DI and leave DI in would be to make all DI start a frame or two later, which would open up a lot of ridiculous combos.
2. The developers are Japanese. Unless we start complaining in Japanese, I highly doubt our voice is going to be heard. I'm not trying to say, "hey guys stop complaining," I'm just trying to say, "complain if you want, but it probably won't trigger any change."

I do have my own opinion on this, but this post is meant to be entirely neutral.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I have a long standing history of war with the escapability crap of such attacks that began in 2002. That's longer than most marriages last in this decade.

This has been by far the most touchy Zelda-related subject with me in any of my years of playing. With that, I think it's time I told people the history of versions for the unknowing, and why it wasn't always this way, and why it is not a direct change to Zelda that is the cause.

Actually, it's a pretty darn short one and very simple. Hits that did less than 1% in 1.0 Melee did not have hit lag (remember Smash counts fractions, but only shows whole percentage points). This caused moves that consisted of several small 1% hits such as Zelda's and Pichu's Smashes, Peach's/Samus's/YLink's Up+B, and rapid jab moves to be inescapable once you're caught in them. You can still DI the actual sending hit of these moves like any other attack. Hits that did exactly 1 point of damage still had 1 frame of hit lag, but move decay mechanics prevent this from happening with said attacks since after 1 hit connects the rest diminish into no hit-lag mode.

After about a year of 1.0 being out though, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL applied a game-changing mechanics change. All hits, even ones that do less than 1% damage, have hit lag. Thus, these hits are all DI'able and Smash DI'able to be escaped. Any attack that consisted of several of these hits became much less useful, many to the point of near uselessness. Zelda did not directly get nerfed in between versions, but she got hit the hardest by this. And she was already bad enough off. With major hit lag on every single attack present in Brawl, this escapability mechanic returned, with the Smash Attacks themselves not properly changed to counter a consistent escape.

-----
Why compare Zelda's reliable attacks with the unreliable ones? Ftilt and Utilt are not disjointed hitboxes like Fsmash and Usmash, which is the most major difference between them. Ftilt sends up and behind, Fsmash sends out foward. Usmash sends straight up, Utilt sends up and forward. Utilt comes out slower than Usmash, and Ftilt doesn't have the effective counter-spacing properties of Fsmash. They were never truly interchangeable. Nayru's also does not attack nearly as quickly as Nair. And it's not even about being obvious with those moves. They're escapable on reflex, and it only takes about ten minutes of practicing and learning the technique to escape them, then training the reflex. Zelda may be better now, but she still has two irreplaceable moves that won't work in top-level play once the meta game has progressed to what Melee was 3-4 years ago.

And of course my reasons for winning are always more important than yours, and vice versa. In a tournament setting, there are no friends, only competitors. And only those relinquish their inner scrub mindset will climb to the top and display their very best game. This process happens to involve learning every technique possible against your opponent not for ****s and giggles against your friend, but because you need to to stay on top of the match against a slew of tough opponents with all focus towards winning a prize, and finally being rewarded for your efforts with a material amount of instant gratification. The hardcore competitive game and the "does not really care about getting 1st place" competitive game are nowhere near close to the same thing.

And one of those employed top-level techniques just happens to be rendering Zelda's Fsmash/Usmash close to the point of uselessness nearly every time...

Even if you NEVER understand where I am coming from, that's fine. I will not, however, tolerate you talking me down for this, because it was very clear from the beginning that we could never see eye-to-eye. Zelda, as a character, has done nothing to suffer this, nor do the fans that like and play her for whatever purpose, for another 7+ years of our lives.

*yawn* And evidently they found Sheik's Dthrow and Uair, Falco's Dair, Marth's Dair, and Fox's Usmash to contain "errors" in Melee. They were all significantly changed for the PAL release after spending time on Japanese and American shores. So again, it's not like major changes have never happened within the same Smash game already. Even with a few global Wi-Fi games such as Pokemon Diamond/Pearl, the mechanics of particular moves and techniques have been reprogrammed.

-And before I leave for work I would just like to say

Hi, Drake!

...3

But yes, I sort of understand why it's annoying. It's like people calling me RyokoYaksa in full, except it doesn't happen often because no one bothers to type it out. I'll just leave Luthien to do this to you for eternity.

 

[Drake3]

Hi, Drake!

...3

I'll totally refer to you as a woman. >_>; I'm not afraid of your scary, purple aura <_<;;.

So the only chance of this being fixed before it hits NA and EU is that if it's constantly visible to the developers that it's a fundamental flaw? Or is that even a possibility if Japan and NA can fight via Wifi?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Most likely it won't be fixed even when they release a newer version of Brawl.
Simply because of the fact that they will be assuming the casual gamer and not necessarily the hardcore veteran.

 

[blink777]

One thing I find odd is that the game clearly has the mechanics to have certain attacks invulnerable to this sort of DI, without having to deal less than 1% damage as was the case in early Melee (as explained by Ryoko). Granted, off the top of my head, all these attacks are either parts of Final Smashes (Link and Ike's FSs) or grabs (Zelda and Ness's dthrows from Melee), as opposed to being normal attacks. I'd ask why the devs would want to create an attack that could be nullified easily when they have the mechanics to do otherwise, but clearly they wanted to in the course of Melee's "upgrades" (heck, a computer player could DI out of a Zelda fsmash if it was charged at all). It all just equates to a pile of muck in my head, and I'm not even going to try sorting it out.

However, for all it's DIability, in the eyes of everyone but competitive players, Zelda's multihit attacks are a good thing as opposed to a single hit. When you first played Melee, didn't you feel so much more satisfied hitting someone with the prolonged "ZAAAAP" of Zelda's smashes, as opposed to the single "pop" from Mario's fsmash? Yes, for most of us here the chance of getting that resounding thwomp will be beyond miniscule after about a month of people practicing; but for everyone else out there (and that's still the vast majority), it just looks awesome.

For the record, I'm not trying to set up an argument or anything with this post. Simply spewing brain vomit and killing time while I wait for a download to finish.

 

[Luthien]

After thinking about it a while, I'm at a loss. Just one stupid question:

Ryoko, what is the point of this thread?

So far, I've come up with two possibilities. 1) You are hoping someone with either connections/a job at Nintendo sees this and does something to fix it for the next edition of Brawl, or 2) ... that's about it.

But seriously though, I know you're angry, but calling the people at Nintendo/HAL/Sora "****ing idiots" probably won't help your chances...

...3

But yes, I sort of understand why it's annoying. It's like people calling me RyokoYaksa in full, except it doesn't happen often because no one bothers to type it out. I'll just leave Luthien to do this to you for eternity.

That's what people get for putting numbers into their names. I've decided to stop, unless I get another urge.

 

[Zelda_Sheik]

It looks that I'm the only 14 years old kid here because everyone is at least 18 + . There will not exist NO PERFECT CHARACTER. HOW CAN SOME PEOPLE DON'T GET THIS YET? Instead of being pleased that finally Zelda is decent and got majorly buffed some people is just complaining for little problems or details. A good player can play with all problems and still can win. So be f***king pleased that Zelda finally got buffed.

 

[Drake3]

That's what people get for putting numbers into their names. I've decided to stop, unless I get another urge.

I don't actually care. But on every single forum in the world, the name "Drake" is always taken by someone who doesn't post. Drake2 would be meaningless. At least the number 3 is significant.

I can't believe nobody else has a number in their name! Except for Metroid, and I can hardly make fun of my #1 Zelda source.

Edit: Oh, and are we recording our first match?

 

[Arean]

Hee hee.... hi drake....... 3

 

[Drake3]

Hee hee.... hi drake....... 3

Your dog is quacking <_<.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

1. I don't expect this to get fixed, considering they already screwed it up in Melee and never found the effort to fix them in that game. At any rate, I don't expect this thread in particular to be even seen by anyone important.

2. I would like people not to be surprised when these attacks suddenly stop working in the situations where they are needed the most. The entire purpose of this thread was to make people aware of this flaw which can be variably devastating.

3. It is a *****ing vent for myself and other people where this mechanic has severely affected the usability of these attacks back in the Melee days. And will continue into Brawl. And the consequences of this are far from minor.

No one can take away our God given right to complain. Just because other things were improved does not mean I cannot complain about what significant issues still remain. And yes, ths will always be a significant, even major issue depending on what transpires in a competition, to the point of not being able to use Zelda for the win at times.

It is like buying a new house which is loads better than your old one in nearly every way, but it still doesn't have locks on the back door. In either case this will wind up biting you in the *** in the most critical situations.

It's also like saying the Brawl online is amazing because it was never present in a Smash game before, even though it's quite underdeveloped especially in regards to how limited the "With Anyone" mode is. Or even like saying that the Wii is the greatest gaming machine ever, despite the fact that a lot more could've been done with it for the same amount of purchase price that we put forth to get it. You KNOW it's good, and that it's an upgrade to what you had previously, but this doesn't fool you into thinking that more could not have been easily done with available resources.

If these strange analogies and applicable situations make no sense to you, then you can't understand why myself and other players are upset. Furthermore, there isn't even a reason why you should be concerned with our anger, because despite all this, we're still going to play Zelda and enjoy doing so. If anyone really thought otherwise, then you're idiots.

 

[Newuser12345215]

I am wondering if they will do small updates/balance changes to the game. It shouldn't take up too much space, since they're just balance changes.

So while the game may not be perfect right now, maybe they can change game a bit through small updates.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Hmm, I wonder if they'll fix this in the PAL version?

 

[Wind Owl]

I can't really see how they can make tweaks to the game now that there's Wifi mode...

 

[RyokoYaksa]

They did it with Pokemon Diamond/Pearl in between region releases. When playing Wi-Fi with Japan, the Wifi applies the USA changes to the Japanese version for the duration of the Wi-Fi play.

 

[Wind Owl]

Oh, ok. Interesting.

 

[Pappioll]

Im very pleased with the buffed Zelda. She's more buffed than I could ever imagine. Din's?
Anyway, It's annoying, and I understand why Ryoko is pissed due to this. Zelda deserves reliable Fsmashes and Usmashes just like every other character. It's a bit unfair that we have to worry about our opponent's DIing out of our smashes.

Why does Zelda have multihit-smashes anyway? From my point of view, it's stupid.

 

[Luthien]

3. It is a *****ing vent for myself and other people where this mechanic has severely affected the usability of these attacks back in the Melee days. And will continue into Brawl. And the consequences of this are far from minor.

No one can take away our God given right to complain. Just because other things were improved does not mean I cannot complain about what significant issues still remain. And yes, ths will always be a significant, even major issue depending on what transpires in a competition, to the point of not being able to use Zelda for the win at times.

Got it. Just checking.

If these strange analogies and applicable situations make no sense to you, then you can't understand why myself and other players are upset. Furthermore, there isn't even a reason why you should be concerned with our anger, because despite all this, we're still going to play Zelda and enjoy doing so. If anyone really thought otherwise, then you're idiots.

Was that directed at me? If so, sorry, I didn't mean to be a smart aleck in my post or anything, it was a genuine question. I appoligize if it seemed like I was sarcastic or talking down to you or anything.

It looks that I'm the only 14 years old kid here because everyone is at least 18 + .

You'd be surprised... take that as you will.

Edit: Oh, and are we recording our first match?

Only if you know how. I'm oblivious when it comes to these things, unless we're using the Brawl 3-minute recording thing. I'm pretty sure I can handle that. At any rate, it depends on whether or not you're willing to be completely embarrased in front of the entire Zelda community.

 

[Ztarfish]

Omg. I'm so not in the condition to be dyping right now. God****. What was I talking about again? Oh yeah. Dude, let's all just get along and get in a circle. Give peace a chance. Zelda doesn't suck. **** her stupid Fsmash.

I can't wait for Brawl.,
Remind me to edit this post.

 

[Wind Owl]

Ryoko, a) is there any way to punish the opponent for DI'ing out of fsmash (I doubt it, just checking) and b) if the opponent starts as close to Zelda as possible, is it still DI'able?

 

[Drake3]

Omg. I'm so not in the condition to be dyping right now. God****. What was I talking about again? Oh yeah. Dude, let's all just get along and get in a circle. Give peace a chance. Zelda doesn't suck. **** her stupid Fsmash.

I can't wait for Brawl.,
Remind me to edit this post.

Someone was totally wasted when he was typing that. >_>

 

[Krytha]

maybe you could chase a smashDI with a fair for some of the other characters. All the DI Ive seen has them moving upwards a little which is theoretically into the path of a short hopped kick. There's also a video of Zelda doing some chain grabs on computers and its really slow and unlikely to work on real players, but Im not sure if the zelda was using the moving shield grab either, so maybe it could still work.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ryoko, a) is there any way to punish the opponent for DI'ing out of fsmash (I doubt it, just checking) and b) if the opponent starts as close to Zelda as possible, is it still DI'able?

In melee it was difficult to punish someone who DI'ed since many of them would actually attack you during the time that Zelda withdraws her arm.
I think its still DI able since ryoko seems so vexed especially since he/she (I don't know their gender) mentioned being rested by a jigglypuff during a Fsmash

 

[gdtyrael]

As I posted in another thread:

Yeah its confirmed, Upsmash is escapable too. My main is zelda since melee. Yesterday I got the chance to play brawl for the 1st time, played 8hrs in a row. However, calm down you all and this hype with zelda's smashes being escapable... The truth is... Regarding her Usmash, one of my friends escaped just ONCE at hundreds os battles, its almost impossible, and they know how to DI very well, the move really sucks you in, you can move very little. The Fsmash however miss more often, BUT it does NOT leaves you vunerable, it pushes the opponent at a distance that even marth sword cannot Fair you, and you have time to dins fire him ou anything else. If Fsmash hits precisely its like Usmash, no matter the DI you do, its not escapable, when you guys play you will feel that, the move have hitlag and takes longer than in melee to sends your oponent flying, but its not like melee you stick up and voala you escaped zeldas Fsmash, NO!! my friends struggled against the stick, tried every DI and not escaped, its seems only escapable, when your opponents was starting jump before you start the attack, so he had momentum going up, so I can asure you all, every time someone escapes a Fsmash is upwards back, its like its just possible to escape the smash if you almost would have missed it by little, or more often when you hit someone thats in the air already.

If ryoko said he got rested by some jiggly after the smash been escaped, im pretty sure its just jiggly, she have such air meneuverability and agility on the 1st jump that its very possible I think, but rest is not near good as in melee and jiggly is crap overall so dont worry bout it

EDIT: very honestly now, Im not angry bout it been escapable, sure it wud be hell lot better if it was not, but at the end of the day, if someone escapes, you will not get hurt, and your opponent will realize that the best thing he can do after escape is retreat a bit, cause if he comes ur way he will get hit again till it conects properly, all zelda moves are so **** fast to execute, and if he retreats he got some little %, better than nothing I suppose, its more of a setup I wud say at this point.

 

[-Hoggle-]

As I posted in another thread:

Yeah its confirmed, Upsmash is escapable too. My main is zelda since melee. Yesterday I got the chance to play brawl for the 1st time, played 8hrs in a row. However, calm down you all and this hype with zelda's smashes being escapable... The truth is... Regarding her Usmash, one of my friends escaped just ONCE at hundreds os battles, its almost impossible, and they know how to DI very well, the move really sucks you in, you can move very little. The Fsmash however miss more often, BUT it does NOT leaves you vunerable, it pushes the opponent at a distance that even marth sword cannot Fair you, and you have time to dins fire him ou anything else. If Fsmash hits precisely its like Usmash, no matter the DI you do, its not escapable, its seems only escapable, when your opponents was jumping before you start the attack, so he had momentum going up, so I can asure you all, every time someone escapes a Fsmash is upwards back, its like its just possible to escape the smash if you almost would have missed it by little.

If ryoko said he got rested by some jiggly after the smash been escaped, im pretty sure its just jiggly, she have such air meneuverability and agility on the 1st jump that its very possible I think, but rest is not near good as in melee and jiggly is crap overall so dont worry bout it

EDIT: very honestly now, Im not angry bout it been escapable, sure it wud be hell lot better if it was not, but at the end of the day, if someone escapes, you will not get hurt, and your opponent will realize that the best thing he can do after escape is retreat a bit, cause if he comes ur way he will get hit again till it conects properly, all zelda moves are so **** fast to execute, and if he retreats he got some little %, better than nothing I suppose, its more of a setup I wud say at this point.

You seem to know what you are talking about so I truly hope that you are right.

 

[Drake3]

So what you're saying, Tyreal, is that it's escapable, but the chances of anyone being able to do it consistently are near impossible? Perfect. Well, not perfect, but extremely good to hear.

 

[Magus420]

As Jigglypuff in post 1.0 melee, all I had to do people had to do was hold down during the f-smash then press the B button and the rest autoconnects. The hit pulls you in right ontop of her while sliding underneath the remaining hits with how low Jiggs' landing animation is, and then you rest anytime during the crouch afterwards to hit her leg/arm as it finishes.

As for my experience with the smashes, I found the f-smash relatively easy to get out of, but I had a very hard time getting out of the u-smash. There may be an efficient way of getting out of it, but A/SDIing up and outward generally wasn't getting me out of it very well. Perhaps there are multiple hitboxes that send you inward or something kind of like Samus' up-B in melee which was harder to escape than most multihitting attacks.