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Confirmed - Zelda's multi hits escapable. Again.
- Thread starter RyokoYaksa
- Start date
Look. Saying that people "won't think to do it" is hardly the case in a competitive setting where consistent attacks are more important than ever.
Also, those players were not using Smash DI, only regular DI. With the amount of hit lag these attacks have now, Smash DI'ing will be easier than before. And also, if people are escaping them now, what about when everyone gets good reflexes and knows the importance of Smash DI. This flaw of escapability will only make itself more and more obvious over time as players get better at the game.
And also Drake...3, the evidence of weakened knockback being caused by Move Decay is present in every. video. out there. People aren't dying to the same moves at the same percents while dying at other times, and it's not because of their DI.
Also, those players were not using Smash DI, only regular DI. With the amount of hit lag these attacks have now, Smash DI'ing will be easier than before. And also, if people are escaping them now, what about when everyone gets good reflexes and knows the importance of Smash DI. This flaw of escapability will only make itself more and more obvious over time as players get better at the game.
And also Drake...3, the evidence of weakened knockback being caused by Move Decay is present in every. video. out there. People aren't dying to the same moves at the same percents while dying at other times, and it's not because of their DI.
...You've been watching Luthien...
Ok, I'll run through some other videos where people spam attacks and see if there's a consistency that I haven't been paying attention to. If it's true then I approve whole-heartedly as this will force people to actually develop their characters instead of their 1 strongest move.
Luthien
Smash Ace
And just what's that supposed to mean?
Isn't that Ryoko's point? That istead of having a character with a bunch of good attacks, we got Zelda who can only fair, bair, and d-smash to get a KO, when 2 potentially great smashes are just sort of... sitting there mocking us with their lack of usability? If Zelda had a good f-smash/u-smash, people wouldn't spam it. Zelda would just have a lot more ways to KO, and she needs that due to her pradictable approach and whatnot. A Melee 1.0 f-smash could aid Zelda's game a TON.
Goldkirby
Smash Ace
Heh, maybe the fact that I have a melee 1.0 disc is why I never knew Zelda's f-smash was escapable. That kinda does suck, I really liked her new model, and am still going to play Zelda at least as a secondary this time around. I just like her new design too much to not play Zelda.
I think you merged topics. I was referring to the whole Move Decay thing which applies to all characters (but I guess especially Zelda) which forces them to utilize pretty much every single attack at their disposal. Which I think, as a general concept, is a great idea. Would it be nice if Zelda's smashes were 1 concentrated hit? Yeah, but that's not what we have.
And from what I've seen, Zelda has Fair, Bair, Dair, UAir, Din, and on a rare occasion Utilt to KO. That's not too bad.
And it means that Ryoko is purposely emphacizing the 3 now thanks to somebody. >_>
Don't forget Zelda's 1.0 Usmash in Melee. The sheer usefulness of Zelda's Usmash out of shield back then (which in Brawl is still faster than any shield grab) and the new sliding Usmash in the game was a great opportunity for Zelda to have a reliable Usmash again, but it was again totally wasted upon her.
darkatma
Smash Hero
Saaaakkkkkuuuurrrraaaaaaiiiiii T.t
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
I agree with Drake
We could sit here and ***** about what we don't have, or we can accept the vast improvements that we do have. Personally I like the latter choice. Besides, her Fsmash doesn't suck. If it is difficult, or at least moderately difficult to escape from in casual play, then it wouldn't be any different in competitive play. I've never played competitively but I remember from the first time I picked up Zelda in Melee, I learned after the first battle that Fsmash was incredibly useless. The fact that people can now actually use Fsmash, hit with it a lot of the time, and avoid punishment when not sweetspotted I think is what we should focus on.
Oh and before I forget, 3.
We could sit here and ***** about what we don't have, or we can accept the vast improvements that we do have. Personally I like the latter choice. Besides, her Fsmash doesn't suck. If it is difficult, or at least moderately difficult to escape from in casual play, then it wouldn't be any different in competitive play. I've never played competitively but I remember from the first time I picked up Zelda in Melee, I learned after the first battle that Fsmash was incredibly useless. The fact that people can now actually use Fsmash, hit with it a lot of the time, and avoid punishment when not sweetspotted I think is what we should focus on.
Oh and before I forget, 3.
You're a dead man, Luthien.
Casuals do not employ many of the skills that competitives do, and those that do certainly don't employ them to the same degree. Saying that if it's difficult to escape in casual play when most people are newbies and weren't even blips on the competitive Melee rader will be "not any different" from a true, hardcore competitive setting is the biggest fallacy I've heard all day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ74srVgGRU - At 0:50, Bowser dashes RIGHT INTO Zelda's Fsmash, but he still escapes by Smash DI'ing away from her.
And I have every right to ***** considering the fact of what an atrocity of game design this is, and the consequences it has produced for the last 5 years of Melee's 6, only to have it happen for another 7+.
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
.. I never said that casual play was not much different than competitive play. I said that the physics used in the game are not much different in regard to competitive and casual play. Actually they're exactly the same.
The first time I ever picked up Melee, I selected Zelda. I used her Fsmash and BAM right away my friend took a total of 1% and Smashed me back to oblivion.
Later after using Zelda a lot more, I learned how to effectively manipulate Zelda and the space around her to make the Fsmash more succesful in certain contexts. Is that not what competitive players do? If the Fsmash we see in Brawl is as horribly mutilated as it's Melee counterpart, would we not have known instantly that her Fsmash is lame? Would the various impressions we've gotten from people who played the game indicate that her Fsmash is incredibly hard to utilize? Of course it would. The absence of said items shows that it actually has been improved.
And because of competitive players and new techniques, it should only get better, as that is what 'competitiveness' is all about.
Edit: I never said you didn't have the right to *****. By all means ***** all you want, it's inexplainable why they did it. I'm just saying that we have a choice.
Ok bigger Edit: I reread what I said in my first post and I realize it doesn't make any sense. Hopefully this one clears up my intentional meaning.
...Yeah. He DI'd the charging, predictable Fsmash that was screaming "PLEASE DI ME".
What about 0:48? 1:13? 2:42? 3:01? 3:08? 3:13? 3:28? 3:34? 3:45? You're right, they'll get better at DIing it. But we'll get smarter about using it.
What about 0:48? 1:13? 2:42? 3:01? 3:08? 3:13? 3:28? 3:34? 3:45? You're right, they'll get better at DIing it. But we'll get smarter about using it.
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
Let me say I absolutely love how you sum up in three sentences what I was trying to articulate in like a million. I'm so linguistically inept.
He only tried to DI the send itself, which does not result in escapes like it did in Melee unless you're a tiny character. Smash DI however, literally kills this move every time, which Gimpy was not aware of. *cough* he's too used to the easy hold-the-stick DIability of the move in Melee because he's a n00b *cough*
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I've had dedede and lucario DI out of both FSmashes and USmashes... so weight and size aren't issues, though they may make it easier...
BUT! I've never had them DI out of it if I score a direct hit with it.... well... I take that back... diddy did once... he crouce cancelled, but ended up dying by fastfalling as a result
BUT! I've never had them DI out of it if I score a direct hit with it.... well... I take that back... diddy did once... he crouce cancelled, but ended up dying by fastfalling as a result
I'm gonna have to join the "Zelda's still greatly improved" side. No point in arguing what they could've changed when she's already more improved than most of us would have guessed. Besides, if Zelda had no trouble connecting with all of her powerful attacks, she'd start leaning towards that "top tier" that nobody wants her on.
You can't get easy wins and claim that she's totally weak and requires immense skill at once. Thank Sakurai for finding a medium this time around.
You can't get easy wins and claim that she's totally weak and requires immense skill at once. Thank Sakurai for finding a medium this time around.
NESSBOUNDER
Smash Master
This is very sad. It was one of the main things I'd thought would look up for Zelda in Brawl. -_-
And Roko, I totally understand your anger with these attacks not working. The fact that there is a possibility AT ALL that the opponent can escape from these attacks pretty much makes them theoretically useless. I experienced many of the same problems with multi-hit attacks on the characters I played in Melee, especially Young Link's spin attack etc.
However, if I recall correctly, I could sometimes get Zelda's Fsmash to hit with its final blow in Melee by using it at further range. It hit less times but enough to get that final spark. Have you tried timing this attack so that the first few sparks miss?
But yeah, this sucks. Most of the multi-hit attacks in Brawl supposedly became stickier.
And Roko, I totally understand your anger with these attacks not working. The fact that there is a possibility AT ALL that the opponent can escape from these attacks pretty much makes them theoretically useless. I experienced many of the same problems with multi-hit attacks on the characters I played in Melee, especially Young Link's spin attack etc.
However, if I recall correctly, I could sometimes get Zelda's Fsmash to hit with its final blow in Melee by using it at further range. It hit less times but enough to get that final spark. Have you tried timing this attack so that the first few sparks miss?
But yeah, this sucks. Most of the multi-hit attacks in Brawl supposedly became stickier.
See, this is the divide right here. Most of you have the casual Zelda player's gut. They don't care how bad or how good Zelda is, because they will still play her and enjoy doing so, and you will ultimately not lose or gain anything of value for your efforts. You also feel "unique" because you are playing what appears to be a balanced or underpowered character. You don't want her in the top tier, because then everyone will flock to her for her goodness alone like Sheik/Fox in Melee. It is at this point where it shows that it is obvious that you have not had any important matches riding on Zelda, and that you have no true purpose for winning.
Only a casual player would ever think their characters suddenly jumping to top tier would actually compromise their "uniqueness" or "honorability." If you're a good player, you're a good player, and people will recognize you for playing your character well above anyone else regardless of how many people are playing that character.
I, however, have the competitive player's gut with the addition of being a passionate Zelda fan/main. Not being able to count on these moves to do what they're supposed to do ultimately drops Zelda's potential, sometimes greatly when the best way to counter an opponent's strategy happens to lie within these moves, but they're skilled enough to escape them (and trust me, skilled tournament players will be able to spot and escape them like second nature). Most casual players probably have no idea of how frustrating and how consequential the escapability of these attacks are to the tournament Zelda player. I would gladly take a weaker sending Fsmash/Usmash if it meant consistency.
Again, not knowing that Zelda's Smashes were not originally designed to be gimped in this way is like not knowing that there's supposed to be chicken in chicken noodle soup. Brawl may have added some nice vegetables, herbs and spices, and some different types of noodles to Zelda's soup this time around, but the chicken is still missing.
Many other characters have already been enjoying their deluxe soup ingredients for years, plus the chicken. And a lot of those characters still have them in Brawl, and some even have more on the table now.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
Wow, that was the best soup metaphor I've ever heard.
Anyway, are we completely sure the escaping isn't related to the anti-spam mechanic?
Anyway, are we completely sure the escaping isn't related to the anti-spam mechanic?
NESSBOUNDER
Smash Master
Heh...
Ness got some of the chicken taken out of his soup and replaced with turkey.
It'll be hard adjusting to no DJC, but on the plus side, being able to attack from a second jump without falling will boost his combo potential at higher altitudes.
Ness got some of the chicken taken out of his soup and replaced with turkey.
It'll be hard adjusting to no DJC, but on the plus side, being able to attack from a second jump without falling will boost his combo potential at higher altitudes.
Zone
Smash Champion
Here is a clean example of why people WILL perfect getting out of smashes regardless of how well YOU aim it. Smash DI, sends you out of multi hit range pretty much garanteed. And with enough practice adn reflexes to seeing just the first 1-2 frames of her smash. You could probably smash DI everytime.
People use to use Fox's Up-air ALOT, But when your fighting someone who has gotten REALLY good at smash DI'ing. Those fox's Became aware that their up-air became useless if they could smash DI it everytime. So they went with a chase to BAck-air.
Same rules apply to Zelda. ONce you meet that opponent who is extremely consistent with Smash DI vs Zelda's Upsmash and F-smash you will be so use to using f-smash and up-smash for situations because you were use to it working, but now have to invent a different way around ur normal counters. Which during a tournament match is a bad time to start being newly creative and exploring a valid counter. You'll use it like you normally do, out of habit and you'll get pwned. You always want consistency, and never give the enemy the chance to save themselves TWICE from a move.
by twice I mean.
1.) He coulda avoided the F-smash altogether, BUt didn't
2.) He's hit but Smash DI's and is out again.
The more chances you give an opponent to escape, it becomes way more useless. ESpecially something as easy to catch as multi hit moves.
btw Din's fire does not look like a Kill move. Maybe a move that leads to a kill move. But definantly not a kill move imo. From what I saw people survived a hit from it at 130%+
People use to use Fox's Up-air ALOT, But when your fighting someone who has gotten REALLY good at smash DI'ing. Those fox's Became aware that their up-air became useless if they could smash DI it everytime. So they went with a chase to BAck-air.
Same rules apply to Zelda. ONce you meet that opponent who is extremely consistent with Smash DI vs Zelda's Upsmash and F-smash you will be so use to using f-smash and up-smash for situations because you were use to it working, but now have to invent a different way around ur normal counters. Which during a tournament match is a bad time to start being newly creative and exploring a valid counter. You'll use it like you normally do, out of habit and you'll get pwned. You always want consistency, and never give the enemy the chance to save themselves TWICE from a move.
by twice I mean.
1.) He coulda avoided the F-smash altogether, BUt didn't
2.) He's hit but Smash DI's and is out again.
The more chances you give an opponent to escape, it becomes way more useless. ESpecially something as easy to catch as multi hit moves.
btw Din's fire does not look like a Kill move. Maybe a move that leads to a kill move. But definantly not a kill move imo. From what I saw people survived a hit from it at 130%+
Din's Fire looks like a great finisher for when you plop and enemy up vertically and they're falling down. On the ground it's not going to kill anyone at moderate percents, but using it to follow-up a strong attack that doesn't kill will do the trick.
And I'm surprised that I'm suddenly considered casual and impartial. I like Zelda a lot, she's my favorite character to use, and I will enjoy her, regardless of her potential. Point is though, even in a competitive standpoint (I don't just play to play, I play to win) she's got far more potential this time, and regardless of how good or popular she may or may not be, I'd still use her because I enjoy playing her. Uniqueness doesn't factor in, if I liked the Starfox series enough I'd be playing Fox, I wouldn't resent a character for being easy or hard to use. My purpose for winning is the same for everyone else's, I want the glory of being a winner. Anyone who isn't betting their life earnings that thinks their reason to win is more meaningful than anyone else's is self-centered and wrong. Just because I'm not complaining relentlessly about a minor flaw doesn't mean I don't use Zelda to compete and try my hardest to win. The divide is that some people are willing to input more skill to balance out Zelda's flaws.
And Zelda's FSmash and USmash don't lower her potential, they just raise it very little. Last I heard from all of the people who've played Brawl, they're far better than the Melee counterparts were intended to be (because they wouldn't have altered it had they not wanted to).
Sorry if I'm offending anyone, but there's a distinct lack of gratuity here, and overall, the developers deserve a lot for what they've done with Zelda.
And I'm surprised that I'm suddenly considered casual and impartial. I like Zelda a lot, she's my favorite character to use, and I will enjoy her, regardless of her potential. Point is though, even in a competitive standpoint (I don't just play to play, I play to win) she's got far more potential this time, and regardless of how good or popular she may or may not be, I'd still use her because I enjoy playing her. Uniqueness doesn't factor in, if I liked the Starfox series enough I'd be playing Fox, I wouldn't resent a character for being easy or hard to use. My purpose for winning is the same for everyone else's, I want the glory of being a winner. Anyone who isn't betting their life earnings that thinks their reason to win is more meaningful than anyone else's is self-centered and wrong. Just because I'm not complaining relentlessly about a minor flaw doesn't mean I don't use Zelda to compete and try my hardest to win. The divide is that some people are willing to input more skill to balance out Zelda's flaws.
And Zelda's FSmash and USmash don't lower her potential, they just raise it very little. Last I heard from all of the people who've played Brawl, they're far better than the Melee counterparts were intended to be (because they wouldn't have altered it had they not wanted to).
Sorry if I'm offending anyone, but there's a distinct lack of gratuity here, and overall, the developers deserve a lot for what they've done with Zelda.
Before I go further, might I quote that it was you in this very thread who stated "then [Zelda] would start leaning towards the 'top tier' which nobody wants her on."
And who says I'm not willing to input more skill just to play her competitively? I'm still one of the best Zelda users worldwide and I've trodden the top level competitive scene with Zelda in hand for years, and will do the same in Brawl. But honestly, what you believe to be a "minor" flaw will become exponentially more apparent as players improve at the game.
They are not better than their 1.0 Melee counterparts if they are escaped, so I don't know what they were smoking when they said this. Escapes will only become more frequent with better and better players.
Who is under appreciating? Did I not make that giant thread keeping track of all the changes made to Zelda this game containing plenty of praise from my end? I am fully aware of the silver lining. But for the 2nd time, adding vegetables, spices, and different noodles does not excuse forgetting the chicken. And in 1.0 Melee, Zelda had the "chicken," and trust me when I say that not having this "chicken" ultimately lowers what Zelda is capable of doing. So please do not pull that garbage on me about Zelda "not losing potential" because of these attacks being escapable for another 7+ years of our lives. From a game developer's standpoint I would be ashamed if I let something like this slip through the cracks, especially after spending so much **** time balancing everyone's attacks. In particular, messing up something as critical as 2 of a character's Smash Attacks.
Finally, if I do not incessantly complain about it, what chances are there of this ever being fixed? The assets and applicable situations of Fsmash and Usmash are so specific and unique that they cannot possibly be replaced by any of Zelda's other attacks. But in the situations where you have the perfect opportunity to hit them and NEED them to hit, ie. a tough tournament where there is material incentive to win, they will not be reliable at all, unlike someone who has hit-one-and-get-it-over-with Smash attacks. This "minor flaw" only becomes more infuriating as the stakes get higher.
Many of you have honestly given me an earful about how you liked Zelda the way she was in Melee and don't want people flocking to play her if she's "too good" or "top tier" thus losing your special spot as that Zelda player, which makes absolutely zero sense to me. I think it is only fair that I get to complain about hot Fsmash and Usmash will be completely unreliable in high-level competition, and how this does nothing but limit Zelda's top-end game.
I do not detect a competitive drive within you. Or rather, you have not seen what I have seen, so you probably don't understand why I'm infuriated.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Ryoko you're not alone in your frustration. i can understand the fact its infuriating to see that a game that attempts to achieve a sense of balance can still screw up something as crucial as Zelda's two smash attacks.
I do agree that the programmers shouldn't have let something like this go by and at least remove the multihit of Zelda's smashes and make them single hit so that they weren't so easily countered via smash DI.
After all the point of Zelda is so that she can KO the opponents while her Sheik form racks up damage, it completely defeats that purpose of two of her moves that are critical to her remain poor.
I can only imagine how infuriating it would be if link had remained the same as his SSB64 self where he lacked a recovery move.
oh and have a cookie ( : : )
They help.
I do agree that the programmers shouldn't have let something like this go by and at least remove the multihit of Zelda's smashes and make them single hit so that they weren't so easily countered via smash DI.
After all the point of Zelda is so that she can KO the opponents while her Sheik form racks up damage, it completely defeats that purpose of two of her moves that are critical to her remain poor.
I can only imagine how infuriating it would be if link had remained the same as his SSB64 self where he lacked a recovery move.
oh and have a cookie ( : : )
They help.
Zone
Smash Champion
I am grateful she is slightly better don't be me wrong. But it's like taking 2 of her moves out of her moveset. And the less options you have for certain situations, the lower the potential. And the Lower the potential the greater the chance of her sucking all over again.
Even if Zelda coulda been high tier, it doesn't change how you are recognized. Mew2king uses high tiers, he's recognized, and so are alot of other people.
Saying we can work around or that repeated smash DI'ing won't hurt zelda really bad. Is like saying If they took out Marth's Fsmash he can work around it. Oh sure, Marth has other methods of killing. Off stage f-air'ing, Spiking, or Reverse Dolphin Slash. But losing that one move. Greatly GREATLY limit marth. It's just 1 move? Well Zelda is losing 2 moves if Smash DI'ing out of it is easily consistent with a top player.
If people can spam frame specific things like.
Powershielding.
Super wave dashing.
Double shining w/o leaving the ground.
+Other things
Then surely they can consistently Smash DI, if effort is put into trying to learn it. You may see zelda players using upsmash and f-smash in melee. That's mainly because Zelda is so not oftenly used. That if someone who doesn't play against zelda doesn't know he can Smash DI it. IT could work. But making an assumption like that will be ur downfall. If Zelda is well liked this time around, You can bet your butt alot of people will know how to smash DI it. I know a PEach who can smash DI' Fox's upair alot. He learned it for the sole purpose of not dying vs fox. Because Fox is a common character to face in tournament Scene. Zelda is not, so this peach didn't practice smash DI'ing vs Zelda. But trust me if Zelda is good enough to have a chance at winning tournaments. Smash DI'ing will be practiced by alot of people vs Zelda.
Even if Zelda coulda been high tier, it doesn't change how you are recognized. Mew2king uses high tiers, he's recognized, and so are alot of other people.
Saying we can work around or that repeated smash DI'ing won't hurt zelda really bad. Is like saying If they took out Marth's Fsmash he can work around it. Oh sure, Marth has other methods of killing. Off stage f-air'ing, Spiking, or Reverse Dolphin Slash. But losing that one move. Greatly GREATLY limit marth. It's just 1 move? Well Zelda is losing 2 moves if Smash DI'ing out of it is easily consistent with a top player.
If people can spam frame specific things like.
Powershielding.
Super wave dashing.
Double shining w/o leaving the ground.
+Other things
Then surely they can consistently Smash DI, if effort is put into trying to learn it. You may see zelda players using upsmash and f-smash in melee. That's mainly because Zelda is so not oftenly used. That if someone who doesn't play against zelda doesn't know he can Smash DI it. IT could work. But making an assumption like that will be ur downfall. If Zelda is well liked this time around, You can bet your butt alot of people will know how to smash DI it. I know a PEach who can smash DI' Fox's upair alot. He learned it for the sole purpose of not dying vs fox. Because Fox is a common character to face in tournament Scene. Zelda is not, so this peach didn't practice smash DI'ing vs Zelda. But trust me if Zelda is good enough to have a chance at winning tournaments. Smash DI'ing will be practiced by alot of people vs Zelda.
Luthien
Smash Ace
Although I'm a really noob competetive and have never really played anyone good, I can understand Ryoko/other competetive people's anger.
It's not like the developers have no idea that Zelda's f-smash and u-smash don't work. They've gotten it right BEFORE. So it's not like they can't do it now or that they don't know how, they just CHOOSE not to. The fact that Zelda is going to suffer for no reason is frustrating. And yeah, it isn't nearly as bad for us Melee PAL (or other non-1.0) players as it is for those who have enjoyed the greatness of 1.0 f-smash/u-smash (or those who have actually suffered due to a perfectly timed f-smash/u-smash being DI'd out of and punished).
*Enter Zone's "Marth missing f-smash" comparrison here*
Oh, and to whoever said that it would be possible for the last hit in her f-smash to occur: how common was that in Melee? If the last hit takes that much time in Brawl (somebody less lazy check please), then I would say no.
On a side note: I want Zelda for mid-tier because I refuse to get my hopes any hier. When I found out she was bottom tier I was crushed. (Thankfully the Melee tier list hasn't effected me at all, seeing as how all of my neighbors/peers suck.) The fact that Zelda would suddenly be part of the 'popular crowd' has nothing to do with it.
Edit:
It's not like the developers have no idea that Zelda's f-smash and u-smash don't work. They've gotten it right BEFORE. So it's not like they can't do it now or that they don't know how, they just CHOOSE not to. The fact that Zelda is going to suffer for no reason is frustrating. And yeah, it isn't nearly as bad for us Melee PAL (or other non-1.0) players as it is for those who have enjoyed the greatness of 1.0 f-smash/u-smash (or those who have actually suffered due to a perfectly timed f-smash/u-smash being DI'd out of and punished).
*Enter Zone's "Marth missing f-smash" comparrison here*
Oh, and to whoever said that it would be possible for the last hit in her f-smash to occur: how common was that in Melee? If the last hit takes that much time in Brawl (somebody less lazy check please), then I would say no.
On a side note: I want Zelda for mid-tier because I refuse to get my hopes any hier. When I found out she was bottom tier I was crushed. (Thankfully the Melee tier list hasn't effected me at all, seeing as how all of my neighbors/peers suck.) The fact that Zelda would suddenly be part of the 'popular crowd' has nothing to do with it.
Edit:
What did I do?!
Stop saying they "let it slip by". If they purposely took it out and purposely left it out that doesn't mean they "let it slip by". It means they know exactly what they're doing. But I'm not entirely sure if they've caught on to the whole DI thing yet. It's not exactly an obvious exploit like wavedashing is.
@Zone: I can't exactly tell you what I mean without actually having the game and testing my theories out for myself.
@Luthien: It's possible to hit someone with the last hit of Fsmash. And the attack only takes a long time if you connect with the others pieces (with or without DI).
@Zone: I can't exactly tell you what I mean without actually having the game and testing my theories out for myself.
@Luthien: It's possible to hit someone with the last hit of Fsmash. And the attack only takes a long time if you connect with the others pieces (with or without DI).
Zone
Smash Champion
huh?
Yes, but Zelda's Fsmash is fast when it doesn't hit anyone, and slow when it hits the shields. So pretty much you can't time ur F-smash so that the last part hits them. Because frankly it's up to your opponent to run into it.
Also Drake, for all we know Sakurai doesn't even know how far we broke down his melee game. Because why would he take out wave-dash when so many people enjoyed it? So him leaving/not leaving the upsmash and fsmash the same may not have been on purpose. It's really hard to make a game and not have 1 flaw in the physics or coding.
Luthien
Smash Ace
That's what frustrates me the most, personally. What logic are they using which deducts "we should make Zelda's f-smash/u-smash escapable"?
I sincerely believe that they know about DI. It was programmed into the game by them, wasn't it? Forgive me, because I have only the average person's amount of knowledge when it comes to game-design, but wouldn't it take a lot of time and effort to give a player relative control over which direction they fly? There's no way they could have "let that slip by either", I think/hope.
Isn't it more obvious? I can imagine Smash DI being hard to spot without normal DI, but they programed normal DI in. How could they not discover Smash DI if they've delayed the game for three months, and had six (more) years to test with Melee and incorperate it into Brawl.
I knew you could control whether or not you fly higher up or farther sideways after Ganondorf f-smashed me long before I ever came to smashboards or heard about advanced techniques. And I was a middle-schooler who should've been doing his homework. I truly doubt that a full-grown adult who did this for a LIVING could miss normal DI, explore it further, and discover Smash DI. Especially after another six years of having Melee out.
I know it's possible. It's just incredibly rare for me. And I play noobs. How often do you think a competetive player is going to watch Zelda charge an f-smash and then decide to walk into it a full second later (that's how long the move takes in Melee)? Mindgames, sure, but it will only happen once in a match. Twice if the Zelda gets lucky, and the opponent is sandbagging. It's still a pretty long attack without the first hits.
Another reason to be angry: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141977 . Read the first post.
Zelda can't simply spam fair/bair anymore (not that she could in melee and get away with it anyway). Everytime she uses it, it gets weaker. Zelda needs all the attacks she can get her hands on. The developers took two great attacks away knowing full well what they were doing (you said so yourself, no?).
Do I hate the developers or anything? No. I'm extremely grateful for how they've buffed my main. But this is like running a race and tripping two steps away before the finish line.
No hard feelings, I just happen to disagree with you this time.
Edit:
It's kind of logical think he didn't remove wavedashing per-se. For all we know, he just changed the air-dodge and the wavedashing disappeared as a side effect. But I doubt it. He's apparently been told about all these advanced techniques, and has commented his approval.
Sakurai isn't the only one making the game. He has a team of developers who apparently got it right the first time, and took it away the second. Sure, he's the boss, but there's no way a team could "let this slip by". They're getting payed. It's their job. And they've had plenty of time.
Then I guess they know about DI and decided to keep Zelda's smash attacks gimped for some reason. I was honestly just trying to envision a logical explanation for why they're the way they are. And since I can't, I guess they're just ********.
This one totally confuses me. The last hit of Fsmash can occur without charging.
We don't disagree.No hard feelings, I just happen to disagree with you this time.
Because wavedashing is an exploitation of his game. He managed to keep the air dodge and shorp hop and remove wavedashing. That takes a conscious effort.
And we know that Zelda's smashes were changed because of Ryoko's soup. Not only were they changed, they were kept. That's another conscious effort.
Luthien
Smash Ace
I didn't mean it like that. It's incredibly hard to describe. Basically, the last hit takes time WITHOUT the first hits, too. If your opponent sees you using f-smash and they are a distance away, two things usually happen:
1) They wait for it ALL to finish and then proceed to punish
2) They mistime their punishment and dash into the last hit. But that's a rare, innexplainable human error. Zone put it best: "Because frankly it's up to your opponent to run into it."
My original point was: using F-smash earlier so that only the last hit gets in won't work. The earlier you do it, the sooner your opponent sees it coming. The earlier they see it coming, the less chance the will get hit by it.
Very true. I don't know what I was thinking.
Yeah. It's strange, though. Apparently, when he was confronted by the press about all the advanced techniques, he said he approved. But you can't believe everything you hear, huh?
Yes. And that is exactly what is so frustrating. Basically, Ryoko is saying: "Then I guess they know about DI and decided to keep Zelda's smash attacks gimped for some reason. I was honestly just trying to envision a logical explanation for why they're the way they are. And since I can't, I guess they're just ********."
...only with angrier words/tone, and with SSE Shadow Zelda's scary yellow-eyed face.
I was simply quoting other people. Check the "Zelda buffed... bad?" and other threads full of people saying they liked to play underrated, hard to learn characters. It's not my opinion, it's the general opinion.
In that case, Zelda players will just have improve as well. The move isn't unable to connect properly or is so predictable that opponents can prepare for DI. If that were the case, the characters in the recent videos wouldn't be DIing out only on occasion. Use it sparingly and spontaneously and no matter how good a player is, they aren't always going to expect it unless you strategy is simple and obvious.
That's my point, they're better than the updated Melee's counterparts. Obviously they wouldn't have changed the moves in the first place had they not wanted to. If anything slipped by, it was Zelda 1.0's smashes, as they were the ones altered. If they deemed it worthy of change, I highly doubt they would change it back. Escapes were easy in the updated Melee, but despite their appearance, the smashes have plenty of differences. They're faster, have more range, and therefore are less predictable. It's not like her 4-second long Din's Fire of Melee, as long as it's quick and easy to use, there will be more difficulty in escaping.
Chicken? I've never considered Zelda's FSmash and USmash as the foundation of her moveset. In fact, I've become used to getting around their flaws. I've always considered Nayru's Love, Down Smash, and Lightning Kick her bread and butter, and I can imagine her being far more useless without those than anything. Zelda has a discrepency, but she isn't missing a chunk of playability. Not to mention, this is a new game, Zelda's chicken isn't necessarily those moves anymore. Din's Fire, DAir, UAir, FTilt, and UTilt seem to have far more uses than they used to, who's to say her smashes need to be stellar to make her playable? You know as well as I do she's already fairly balanced, and what you may consider a slip-up, they may consider part of balancing her. Zelda's got 2 mediocre moves, but how many moves did everyone who played Melee dispense? Not just Zelda players, everyone ignored certain moves because of their inefficiencies for nearly all characters. Zelda could have more potential, but from what I've seen in gameplay and what those who've played mentioned, Zelda's already got enough to manage.
If you do complain about it, what are the chances that it will be fixed anyways? Like I've said earlier in this post, the developers probably a ren't looking at it as an error. And as far as replacing those moves, NAir is easily replaced by Nayru's, USmash is hardly any different than UTilt, other than lagtime, and Zelda still lunges forward with her FTilt, similar to the lunge in the FSmash, only FTilt has even more knockback, evidently.
You have as much right to say she should be top tier as anyone that says she should be mid-tier. However, just as you say her being only decent makes zero sense, I don't see any sense in making every move of hers highly dependable and effective.
And with this, I'm done with the argument. I am unable to see in your point of view, as I seem to lack the EYE OF THE TIGER.
Zone
Smash Champion
How do you know it's a concious effort? all we can do is speculate if it was or not. There is no solid proof. I'm fairly sure he cares about his game, But i'm not so sure he cares about the competitive gamers. Why else would "Tripping" happen at random? Competitive players can't base their game on luck. If my tripping reason is wrong my bad. I got this source from taco that tripping can randomly happen.
Because I dunno if you noticed. quite a bit of players are saying "Screw brawl" because it may be not as good as melee competitive wise. All I know is I hope I can see things in brawl, and appreciate the hard work someone went through to master a hard technique. Like Moonwalking, and like when I first saw falco played like bombsoldier I was amazed. Hopefully there will be amazingly hard awsome things to do in brawl. So I can appreciate what I see. If it's all too easily executed, the only thing I can appreciate is someone outplaying someone else with a mind sweep.
Magus420
Smash Master
Yeah, tripping is completely random and there's been controlled testing of it.
Whenever you press left or right to do a dash there's about a 1/100 chance you'll randomly fall down and need to roll/stand/getup attack, and there's no way to cancel it or anything so far. Really limits the new dashdance and pivot since they now require 2 dashes for every one to do each movement. Pretty dumb from a competitive standpoint =/
Whenever you press left or right to do a dash there's about a 1/100 chance you'll randomly fall down and need to roll/stand/getup attack, and there's no way to cancel it or anything so far. Really limits the new dashdance and pivot since they now require 2 dashes for every one to do each movement. Pretty dumb from a competitive standpoint =/
I'm not sure which one you're referring to, SmashA or WD, but if it's WD, it's definitely a conscious effort. Air dodging is still in the game, but its design was changed. How many other basic techniques were changed so drastically?
Luthien
Smash Ace
That's what I thought you meant. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
In theory, yes. But like I read a short while ago, people can train themselves so that smash DIing a specific move is reflex. An example: in Melee, many players practice smash-DIing Fox's u-air so that no matter when he uses it, 95% of the time, they will dodge it. And I'm pretty sure you have less oppurtunity to Smash-DI out of Fox's u-air than Zelda's f-smash. Because you only have four hits to get through before the last one comes...>.> Who would train in such a way? Maybe a competetive player would.
My point: you have loads of time to smash-di out of Zelda's f-smash/u-smash, and it would take all of ten minutes of practice at home to get to the point where it is reflex. That's how bad they are.
That's a very interesting point. But the question is: Why?! Especially considering Ryoko's discovery *see my previous posts*. Zelda needs good moves.
They're not faster. When f-smash hits, the hit-lag is murder. Like I said, a little practice, and a good competetive player won't have any trouble at all.
They are faster if you miss, however. So at least that makes is slightly less punishable.
Once again, the new stale moves programming. Zelda's gonna need more than three reliable *cough* moves this time around.
I dunno. That's true: nothing bothered me more than watching people play Brawl Zelda like Melee Zelda on youtube. I kept thinking: "You idiot! You don't need to set up for a fair any more! You were right there, a perfect dair setup! It's been buffed! TRY IT!!" So, yeah. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose. Like I said: I'm not very good, so I'll leave stuff I don't know about to Ryoko/Zone/other good competetive people to argue.
1) I suppose you're right. Last time I checked, we were all just some guys (/girls) on a gaming forum.
2)...hmm. Not really. You still lose momentum with Naryu, no? I suppose that's irrelivent to your point.
No, it does not have more knockback. That's the new stale move factor you're seeing, I think. But then, I dunno. I'd have to take a look.
Zone
Smash Champion
Um.. It's not about expecting it. It's seeing it and countering with reflexes. To smash DI you don't need to know it's going to happen. You can just smash DI the second it happens to you. Same with edge teching, Taco is getting so good at this crap, I can't even downsmash to kill his falco from grabbing edges. Edge teching happens because you hit L when your hit and your char is touching a wall. Smash DI happens when you smash a direction with C-stick the second you get hit. I guess what i'm saying is, regardless of how often you use it or not. They can see it coming, and react accordingly.
Just because they deem it worthy of change doesn't make it right. And Yes the upsmash and fsmash are pretty fast. When you miss. When you hit them or a shield, the animation goes a bit slower.
How do you get out of falco's double shine pillars then? When upsmash couldn't be DI'd out of, you could Upsmash out of shield against falco's pillar pressure. When upsmash is gone what do you got? You can roll away, with hurt shields. But rolling only works so much then it's a easy following game.
It's very different. 1 Lag time is a major major key ingredient to a move not sucking. Why can't you use ganon's uptilt or neutral B? cuz it's too slow. Same for Falcon's uptilt. IF falcon's uptilt was cut in half you may find way more creative uses for it. The only true time in Melee that Uptilt was of any use is if 1.) Someone was combo'd into my uptilt 2.) IT traded hits with space animals that liek to double jump down-air. That's nearly about as often as you can use it. However when Upsmash was not lame, you could upsmash out of shield, and set up a nice combo.
all moves should be highly dependable for their respective situations. Ryoko's point is upsmash and fsmash if Smash DI'd out of won't be dependable AT ALL. No one is saying make every move Super awsome so she can destroy everything with the flick of a finger. Fixing upsmash and Fsmash so it's consistent makes it like a real chess game. Where it's smarts vs smarts. Not making it lame and gimping zelda's side of the board and restricting her queen to only move 2 blocks per turn, while the other side can move their queen more freely. You should be able to rely on ur pawn to take out a Knight that's diagnal to it w/o the other guy saying, "Nope your pawns can't kill my Knight if I wish it."
that's not solid proof that's speculation. Wavedashing could only be gone because 1.) It's a new fighting engine. Which is why they had to recreate melee stages, instead of just copying them over. 2.) He may have intentionally took it out again speculation 3.) You can't aim your air dodge, i'm sure you know this. This is the #1 reason we know wavedashing is out. we don't know 100% solid proof that he did that to take it out.
Luthien
Smash Ace
Way to steal my thunder and be smarter than me, Zone. Ugh. Lol.
Well, not that page exactly, but the title seemed to fit. The main point of the articles though is:
Sakurai wants noobs to be able to beat pros, and he's forcing randomness into the game to do so.
Yeah. This is what is killing us: http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol4_page3.jsp
Well, not that page exactly, but the title seemed to fit. The main point of the articles though is:
Sakurai wants noobs to be able to beat pros, and he's forcing randomness into the game to do so.