Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

deepseadiva

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Default-specials-only forwards the characters with good default specials like some kind of pure blood Aryan race.

Miis, Palutena, and everyone else have to drink from the nasty customs-only fountain of dreams.
 
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Sixfortyfive

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Might want to get in touch with Jebaley and make sure that the website and the Google doc match. There are some inconsistencies.

Throwing in my 2 cents:

- No port priority in Smash 4 = no justification for Suicide Clause in Smash 4.

- The Nintendo 3DS and 2DS should absolutely be permitted for use as controllers because they are the ONLY wireless controllers that CANNOT mess up a game in progress. (Other synced wireless controllers can bring up the Home menu and turn off the system. The 3DS cannot do this.)
 
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thehard

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Default-specials-only forwards the characters with good default specials like some kind of pure blood Aryan race.

Miis, Palutena, and everyone else have to drink from the nasty customs-only fountain of dreams.
Something that's been on my mind lately.

(Hypothetically), I main 1322 Palutena and 2122 Ganondorf. Customs off tournaments mean my mains are effectively banned. If I still wish to attend one, I have to relearn their 1111s, and on top of that the characters I use drop in power level.

If you main 1111 Fox, your character is safe in either format. No relearning involved. You can always feel comfortable with your character pick. The matchups might be different between tournament formats, but the innate way you handle your main isn't forceably changed.

What's fair about that?
 

Blobface

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Something that's been on my mind lately.

(Hypothetically), I main 1322 Palutena and 2122 Ganondorf. Customs off tournaments mean my mains are effectively banned. If I still wish to attend one, I have to relearn their 1111s, and on top of that the characters I use drop in power level.

If you main 1111 Fox, your character is safe in either format. No relearning involved. You can always feel comfortable with your character pick. The matchups might be different between tournament formats, but the innate way you handle your main isn't forceably changed.

What's fair about that?
For the record, most Ganon mains (myself included) consider him viable even in customs off, though it's considerably more difficult. Palutena is definitely "banned" though.

I generally don't like the idea of characters "getting better/worse" in a customs environment. It's caused of ton of customs to go unexamined, and while I wouldn't say that every character in the game has a sleeper meta-transforming custom set, the only characters that might not benefit from a thorough examination of their customs are characters that have specials that are simply too good to lose (:4sheik::4zss:). Customs working with each other especially has gone overlooked.
 

MajorMajora

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I'm still worried at how there's no specificity under which situations you go to battlefield vs. Miiverse. I hope it gets figured out in practice.
 

thehard

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For the record, most Ganon mains (myself included) consider him viable even in customs off, though it's considerably more difficult. Palutena is definitely "banned" though.

I generally don't like the idea of characters "getting better/worse" in a customs environment. It's caused of ton of customs to go unexamined, and while I wouldn't say that every character in the game has a sleeper meta-transforming custom set, the only characters that might not benefit from a thorough examination of their customs are characters that have specials that are simply too good to lose (:4sheik::4zss:). Customs working with each other especially has gone overlooked.
Mm, my point wasn't so much about viability as having access to your preferred kit. Those were just two characters I thought of... replace Ganon with 3323 Zelda if you want. I think everyone should have 100% of their options available to them 100% of the time.

Miis have it the worst though: they are alternatively banned, limited to 1111, limited to 1111/2222/3333, fully allowed but confined to "Guest" heights and weights, etc... maining a Mii must be suffering. Dapuffster is a master at his character but he was "banned" from APEX and is "banned" from CEO... it's really really bad, players shouldn't be treated like that, whether through ignorance or otherwise.

As for your second point, you're right. Every custom Xanadu DunnoBro and Average Joe are usually the only ones that bother exploring their full character. Kinda sad. Smash Attack and Shockwave are much better showcases of the custom meta.
 

DunnoBro

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I'm just mad that unless a custom is easy to use, or gives ridiculous rewards, no one really uses or tries to understand it.

MVD, Guy, and most duck hunts including myself swore Zigzag was inferior to default. (Though Guy and me know it's better now. It just requires duck hunt to be very aggressive to make the most of the frame traps/combos, and mega gunmen for the stage control lost without default can) Similarly with Pacman, GnW, and likely other characters.

All the good, healthy, technical customs are going unnoticed because people just don't want to put the work in and then get gutted if customs don't stick around.

I honestly don't even want to practice custom DHD myself anymore because I just don't trust the community or nintendo to address this issue. I'd rather just start practicing a braindead default character and stop having to see "oh it was customs" whenever I accomplish anything, which is why I'm not going to EVO.
 

thehard

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I'm just mad that unless a custom is easy to use, or gives ridiculous rewards, no one really uses or tries to understand it.

MVD, Guy, and most duck hunts including myself swore Zigzag was inferior to default. (Though Guy and me know it's better now. It just requires duck hunt to be very aggressive to make the most of the frame traps/combos, and mega gunmen for the stage control lost without default can) Similarly with Pacman, GnW, and likely other characters.

All the good, healthy, technical customs are going unnoticed because people just don't want to put the work in and then get gutted if customs don't stick around.

I honestly don't even want to practice custom DHD myself anymore because I just don't trust the community or nintendo to address this issue. I'd rather just start practicing a braindead default character and stop having to see "oh it was customs" whenever I accomplish anything, which is why I'm not going to EVO.
Am I wrong or do I remember some people saying your win over Neo wasn't legitimate because you used custom DHD? If so, that is the single worst john I've heard in my life, for a lot of reasons.

These aren't waters I like to tread, but honestly, at this point in time I'm not going to object if people go crusading to get these few unhealthy customs (sorry, I mean Cyclone and HSB and that's it) nerfed like they did with Hoo-Hah, if the end result means less complaining and more customs tournaments.
 

Thinkaman

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I mean, I just look at it from my perspective, from the unbiased perspective of someone who doesn't have a main.

In serious matches (tourney bracket or money matches against opponents I have to play seriously against), with customs, I play roughly:
  • 30% Ness (1111)
  • 25% Ganon (2122)
  • 20% Little Mac (2213 in most matchups, 2113 against Sheik and ZSS)
  • 10% Palutena (2312)
  • 8% WFT (2322)
  • 5% DHD (3121)
  • 2% Charizard (1311)
In non-customs I play roughly:
  • 80% Ness
  • 10% Little Mac
  • 5% Sheik
  • 5% Ganon
(In both environments I've played Jigglypuff (1111) and Mega Man (1111) in bracket to success before, but would not use them currently; too rusty. I might play Lucas some in the future; we'll see.)

Not allowing customs is literally banning all the characters I play but Ness and Jolt Haymaker Mac. So... I guess I just play Ness? Zzzzz.


It think it's most obvious with not just Palutena, but DHD. Zig-Zag Shot is just a completely different character. As a ZZS DHD player, under no circumstances would I ever want to play default DHD. They are completely different, more different than Mario/Doc or Marth/Lucina. Banning ZZS DHD and saying I should just use standard instead is nonsense, like banning Luigi and saying I should just play Mario. I don't care how much someone may scoff at that; the bottom line that default DHD is not a character I play, nor character I am personally interested in.

The same applies to default Palutena and default WFT. These characters not only feel boring and poorly designed (to me personally), but also bottom 5 characters with no viability (also imo). So suggesting I play these terrible wannabe clones of the characters I actually play is doubly insulting.


To be completely honest, I would care very little if all customs were removed except Super Speed, Zig-Zag Shot, Jumbo Hoops, Luma Warp, and Dragon Rush; I think those moves should have all been the default in their respective slots, and the characters feel incomplete from a design and creativity perspective without them. (And in the case of all except Rosalina, incomplete and crippled from a balance perspective as well.)

I would also miss Wizard's Dropkick, Crescent Slash, Grounding Blow, Grounding Dash, Fire Arrows, Dash Slash, Reflector Void, Weighted Header, Shooting Star Kick, Meteor Trampoline, and all of Samus's options. I think each of them provides an interesting alternate character that plays differently from the default in a really cool way.


Anyway, I don't want to digress this topic to customs any more. (I see that others made more customs posts while I typed all this, making this worse than a two-post digression.)

I will say though, that I don't care all that much specifically that the community at large seems too immature to take customs seriously. This is merely a symptom of the broader, underlying competitive immaturity of the community, and proof that Smash as we know it will never be a truly successful e-sport.
 

Pyr

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Thinkman... Normally, I like your posts. But this? I gotta say something.

The issue is immaturity. But it's on both ends. Both ends refuse to see the other end because it's "wrong" and "not what I want." Until that bias can be gotten over, discussions of customs will always be split.

Want an example? Saying that your characters are "literally" banned because customs aren't available. I can see why you have that sentiment, and I can see why it's a silly one and very much exaggerates the situation at hand.

I will say though, that I don't care all that much specifically that the community at large seems too immature to take customs seriously.
But ya, I'ma correct you: the community is less then mature when it comes to different wants an opinions. To say the general immaturity comes from the crowd you're not a part of? That, in and of itself, is immaturity and part of the problem. You're looking at your fellow man and seeing them as lesser and illogical and irrational because they see the same thing in a different light. It's especially silly when pro-custom people are really common among people that don't read SWF.

So, we can choose to make long posts about how we feel and why the other side is wrong. And the other side does the same. Then we have 20% of Character Competitive and massive threads of this. Nothing ever really gets done. The immaturity isn't really immaturity then, is it? It's really a lack of empathy when someone sees things differently. That's the issue here. That's what needs to be fixed in the community. Until then, real discussion will never be had en masse.
 
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deepseadiva

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The issue is immaturity. But it's on both ends. Both ends refuse to see the other end because it's "wrong" and "not what I want." Until that bias can be gotten over, discussions of customs will always be split.
There is zero issue with wanting customs banned because of personal preference. "I don't want to play the game this way" is completely valid and is not any more mature than any other stance.

The immaturity and scrubbiness comes from wanting to ban customs on some fake argument of balance, fairness, jank removal, whatever. Gust Cape is not janky in any way at all. Celestial Firework is not broken. Ice Balls aren't destroying the metagame. Whatever convoluted reasoning is used to blanket ban them is absolutely wrong. That's not an exaggeration in any manner.

Just say you don't like them and don't want to play with them. Fine!!!! No one currs!!!!

But don't be all two-faced and say its in the name of fairness and balance. Keep a straight face when you lie to me that Gust Cape needs to be banned for game balance. <____<
 
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webbedspace

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What I want to know is whether any nationals after Evo are confirmed to be running customs rulesets. Does anyone know?
 

Sixfortyfive

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Just say you don't like them and don't want to play with them. Fine!!!! No one currs!!!!

But don't be all two-faced and say its in the name of fairness and balance. Keep a straight face when you lie to me that Gust Cape needs to be banned for game balance. <____<
Pretty much.

There are valid reasons to prefer a customs-free metagame. Personally, I don't like that we have to vote for official presets and don't like the politics that that introduces to the metagame, but I tolerate it because it's a necessary evil for reaping their benefits. I also have a receptive ear for players who actually do experiment with customs and still come to the conclusion that they're not a net benefit to the game's strategic value, so long as those conclusions have decent evidence supporting them.

But waaaaay too many anti-customs arguments are just scrubby and immature. "You only won because customs" is no more valid an argument than "you only won because you used [any character that I haven't bothered to learn]."
 
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webbedspace

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I will never ever understand what kind of logic has driven through you people to play Singles with 2 and Doubles with 3 Stocks. This makes so little sense.
It's generally because Doubles has very little of a singles-style "neutral game" - there's almost no space to keep you from either of your opponents, so stocks tend to fly by much quicker. Add the usual friendly fire into it, and it makes some sense.
 

Yikarur

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No it's just arbitrary. It was a mistake to start the whole thing with 2 Stocks anyway.
We played Brawl for 6 years with 3 Stocks, the most campy game ever. I don't understand why you would ever transfer to 2 Stocks with a far better game.
It's just that people adopted for glory rules in the beginning and kept it without even putting thoughts in it.
People are just too lazy to think by themselves.

Well in the end 3 Stocks will be the standard anyway...
 

Thinkaman

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Want an example? Saying that your characters are "literally" banned because customs aren't available. I can see why you have that sentiment, and I can see why it's a silly one and very much exaggerates the situation at hand.
Except it's flat out not an exaggeration, particularly in the cases of SS/LW Palutena and ZZS DHD. They are totally different characters from any tactical, strategic, or execution PoV.

Hell, default Palutena is static, campy, and reactive, while SS/LW Palutena is a rushdown character. They aren't even in the same archetype. They play more differently than many default characters you could compare! The only similarities are identical OoS options, jab followups, and non-LW throw followups. The entire neutral, in every matchup, is different.

If you say I can't use Super Speed, you are literally telling me I cannot play my character. Flat out, period, no way around it.


SS/LW Palutena is a character I play, and stupid campy default Palutena isn't. I wouldn't know the first thing about playing Palutena without Super Speed, and I don't really care to. If I made a list ranking characters by how much I liked playing them, default Palutena would literally be in the bottom 5.
 

Pyr

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Except it's flat out not an exaggeration, particularly in the cases of SS/LW Palutena and ZZS DHD. They are totally different characters from any tactical, strategic, or execution PoV.

Hell, default Palutena is static, campy, and reactive, while SS/LW Palutena is a rushdown character. They aren't even in the same archetype. They play more differently than many default characters you could compare! The only similarities are identical OoS options, jab followups, and non-LW throw followups. The entire neutral, in every matchup, is different.

If you say I can't use Super Speed, you are literally telling me I cannot play my character. Flat out, period, no way around it.


SS/LW Palutena is a character I play, and stupid campy default Palutena isn't. I wouldn't know the first thing about playing Palutena without Super Speed, and I don't really care to. If I made a list ranking characters by how much I liked playing them, default Palutena would literally be in the bottom 5.
Completely missed the point. Like, 100% missed the point of the post.
There is zero issue with wanting customs banned because of personal preference. "I don't want to play the game this way" is completely valid and is not any more mature than any other stance.

The immaturity and scrubbiness comes from wanting to ban customs on some argument of balance, fairness, jank removal, whatever. Gust Cape is not janky in any way at all. Celestial Firework is not broken. Ice Balls aren't destroying the metagame. Whatever convoluted reasoning is used to blanket ban them is absolutely wrong. That's not an exaggeration in any manner.

Just say you don't like them and don't want to play with them. Fine!!!! No one currs!!!!

But don't be all two-faced and say its in the name of fairness and balance. Keep a straight face when you lie to me that Gust Cape needs to be banned for game balance. <____<
And you did, too.


Told you guys, in essence, to have a conversation. In depth ones. And I got "no, you're wrong" (in essence) in response (though, with Deepseadiva, that's stretching it), and was given a stance in a topic for a more meta post. The main point was completely ignored.

This is what I'm talking about, people. Doesn't matter what the post is, so long as you try to "win" the conversation. There are 2 sides to the custom debate, but not a single person gives a damn so long as they can defend their corner of it. Again, I told you people to set outside yourselves for a moment and just think, and the responses simply nitpick about an aside. If you can't even do it for a single post, what good will it be to ask you to do it for another view point? What are the odds you'll actually listen to someone who tells you that the person who has balance concerns has legitimate concern?

None. None at all. This was a waste of my time, typing this. I'll post it anyway, cause whatever. Can't pretend to take a soapbox and hope to reach a community, that you care about and want to be strong, when everyone just goes to their corner and is unwilling to just grab a beer and talk without intent to push a view. I don't care anymore.
 

MajorMajora

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You know, @ DunnoBro DunnoBro (and I'm sure this applies to others), I suppose it may be too late to go to Evo, but I honestly think we need people pushing the borders of smash as we know it. There will be nay-sayers, and these people will make it feel like the community can't handle it, but for every person who rants about how a player who utilized customs well didn't deserve the win, there are several more, like me, who are inspired by it.

@ Thinkaman Thinkaman is right, in a way Smash as we know it can't and won't handle customs well. But if we refuse to use customs and push their potential, the community will never change. If we have more people using zigzag can and doing amazing things with more technical customs, and just showing the true potential of smash 4, the community will change. Maybe not all of it, but overall we'll grow more mature. I care about smash 4, it's a game I love, and I want to see it grow. And for that we need people to use customs. I pry EVO brings some amazing stuff to the table, I really do.
 

Xeze

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Customs off means I can't use Gust Cape.

And I...I don't want to live in that kind of meta.
Actually I've been using the default cape more than gust cape lately, mainly because gust cape comes out a bit slower. Same with normal FLUDD over the scalding one. Overall, I'm becoming more and more a fan of default Mario.
 

DunnoBro

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I'll admit to thinking gust cape was pretty busted at first too, but it really just makes caping a higher reward, but it's actually inferior to fludd in terms of push due to positioning. And the slower turnaround hitbox is actually really relevant.

Only time it's really ridiculous is vs ness/lucas and bad players who can't understand how to recover low imo. Otherwise, if the windbox is gimping someone, it's a really hard deserved read.
 

Zelder

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Completely missed the point. Like, 100% missed the point of the post.

And you did, too.


Told you guys, in essence, to have a conversation. In depth ones. And I got "no, you're wrong" (in essence) in response (though, with Deepseadiva, that's stretching it), and was given a stance in a topic for a more meta post. The main point was completely ignored.

This is what I'm talking about, people. Doesn't matter what the post is, so long as you try to "win" the conversation. There are 2 sides to the custom debate, but not a single person gives a damn so long as they can defend their corner of it. Again, I told you people to set outside yourselves for a moment and just think, and the responses simply nitpick about an aside. If you can't even do it for a single post, what good will it be to ask you to do it for another view point? What are the odds you'll actually listen to someone who tells you that the person who has balance concerns has legitimate concern?

None. None at all. This was a waste of my time, typing this. I'll post it anyway, cause whatever. Can't pretend to take a soapbox and hope to reach a community, that you care about and want to be strong, when everyone just goes to their corner and is unwilling to just grab a beer and talk without intent to push a view. I don't care anymore.
But what conversation is there to have? One side doesn't want to have customs, and the other does. It's not like you can really meet in the middleground on this topic, either you have customs on or you have them off. I suppose you could ban certain customs (which is what I think is gonna happen in the end), but one side of the debate is still gonna be mad.

Also, you don't need to be so melodramatic.
 

DunnoBro

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Speaking of custom bans/nerfs, I feel like kong cyclone should only be nerfed on outliers of it's usage rather than how it's generally used.

In 1v1 Customs format, Custom DK is still a very underwhelming character imo. His neutral game is garbage and his major gains are during the advantage/disadvantage state... Which he still isn't top tier in either regard. He loses to any safe or conservative character who keeps their cool.

But a big issue is how hard he is to practice against. Kong cyclone requires a lot of on-reaction inputs to punish and diffuse, which are mostly impossible on wifi. And you DO need to learn these reactions so you can avoid getting put into disadvantaged positions and take advantageous ones.

It's also pretty much impossible to punish in doubles. There is no neutral game there, so his biggest exploitable weakness isn't too relevant. It sucks custom doubles can never take off with him around, because custom DHD goes from unusable in doubles, to godlike in doubles. (zigzag is fundamentally another teammate, since he won't hit our team unless I screw up)

With villager stall made more universally punishable/risky, I think HSB is the only custom in 100% need of a nerf because of how it is in 1v1. It's far worse than villager stall that simply didn't work on the majority of the cast, kong cyclone here DK still has bad MUs all over, and I just want to choke people who insist crap like plant barrier, luigi iceballs, or "muh windboxes" are any kind of OP.

Kong cyclone is literally the only super good windbox move, and it isn't really because of the windbox, it's because it's lagless and has truckloads of super armor. Even gust cape is being considered ass by most mario mains now outside of very specific MUs.
 
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Blobface

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I believe I see what you're going for @ Pyr Pyr
So imagine this:

You live decently far away from a tournament venue and it takes you 2+ hours to drive there. After waiting even longer for the actual bracket to start, you lose to a DK running Kong Cyclone. How do you feel/what do you do?

Ideally you'd learn how to counterplay Kong Cyclone so it wouldn't happen again, but lets be honest, most people, likely including myself, are going to be very angry. And since "this wouldn't happen if customs were off", it'd be fairly easy to start believing customs should be banned.


With that said, the most frustrating part of arguing for customs on is that, of 400+ custom moves, you could count the problematic ones on one hand. The only customs that are clearly flawed and need changes are Kong Cyclone and Heavy Skull Bash (villager ledge camping was invalidated by the previous patch). That means that 0.5% of customs cause problems. But this still warrants a blanket ban on the remaining 398 customs.

The only analogy I can possibly think of for that is banning the use of all F-airs because Sheik's F-air and 1.04 Diddy's F-air exist.
 
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MajorMajora

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Honestly, I don't get the sentiment that a custom can be too good unless it makes the character S tier. I mean, it's not like the character you're playing against becomes unwinnable against any more than some other characters, so how is it worse than, say, Sheik?
 

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The only custom I'm worried about is Heavy Skull Bash. Kong Cyclone is attached to DK, so it's okay. Same with Jumbo Hoop and WFT. But Heavy Skull Bash is just so strong, so usable, and it's on Pikachu.
 

thehard

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I think it's pretty silly that, if push comes to shove, some people actually think the Smash community can't agree on banning literally 2 customs. It's always "all or nothing", which is a very flawed and very biased argument.
 

MajorMajora

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The only custom I'm worried about is Heavy Skull Bash. Kong Cyclone is attached to DK, so it's okay. Same with Jumbo Hoop and WFT. But Heavy Skull Bash is just so strong, so usable, and it's on Pikachu.
Does it make Pikachu stronger than Sheik? If so, to a degree that is so polarizing that we would ban the custom?

If HSB was default, would we ban pikachu? If not, keep HSB.
 

Zelder

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I hope that in a future patch Sakurai removes the ability to smash charge Heavy Skull Bash. Then we'd be perfect.
 

Thinkaman

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Completely missed the point. Like, 100% missed the point of the post.

And you did, too.

Told you guys, in essence, to have a conversation. In depth ones. And I got "no, you're wrong" (in essence) in response (though, with Deepseadiva, that's stretching it), and was given a stance in a topic for a more meta post. The main point was completely ignored.

This is what I'm talking about, people. Doesn't matter what the post is, so long as you try to "win" the conversation. There are 2 sides to the custom debate, but not a single person gives a damn so long as they can defend their corner of it. Again, I told you people to set outside yourselves for a moment and just think, and the responses simply nitpick about an aside. If you can't even do it for a single post, what good will it be to ask you to do it for another view point? What are the odds you'll actually listen to someone who tells you that the person who has balance concerns has legitimate concern?

None. None at all. This was a waste of my time, typing this. I'll post it anyway, cause whatever. Can't pretend to take a soapbox and hope to reach a community, that you care about and want to be strong, when everyone just goes to their corner and is unwilling to just grab a beer and talk without intent to push a view. I don't care anymore.
No, I 100% understood the point.

Please, give me benefit of the doubt for a moment as I try to share my point of view; I promise not to be insulting or condescending, or at least do my very best.


From my perspective, someone is trying to ban my character(s) and remove me from the competitive environment.

And what's particularly alarming and problematic, what has us so upset, is that this is not being acknowledged.



Please, try to stick with my PoV just a bit more. From my vantage point, you are trying to forbid me from competition, and then act surprised when I have a huge problem with this. You callously dismiss my intense objection as an overreaction, and when I try to point out what a huge problem this is, you label the concerns as silly and exaggerations while accusing me of not listening. You accuse me of trying to be "right", when my only motivation here is to be allowed to play competitive Smash Bros.


I understand that you do not recognize that banning customs is not the same as banning a character. I 100% believe that your intentions are not actually to bar me (nor anyone else) from the competitive scene and entering tournaments.

But I'm trying to point out that it is exactly the de facto result of the policy under discussion.

And thus when someone says "you're wrong", it's because you are wrong.

We aren't saying "you're wrong for not supporting customs" or "you're wrong for having concern XYZ about customs."

We are saying "you're wrong" for trying to pretend that banning SS/LW Palutena somehow doesn't count as banning someone's character, and is anything less than barring them from participating in competition.



The discussion you are calling for cannot happen so long as one side is trying to bar the other from participating in competitive play, even if they say and even if they truly believe that isn't their intention.
 

Damix91

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
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Does anyone know why CEO retracted its Mii policy i.e 1111/2222/3333 default size sets allowed? I think that was a much fairer to solution to characters clearly not designed around a default set. Beyond that the game even allows you to play non 1111 with customisations off.
 

DunnoBro

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I think it's pretty silly that, if push comes to shove, some people actually think the Smash community can't agree on banning literally 2 customs. It's always "all or nothing", which is a very flawed and very biased argument.
To be realistic, since sets are required for logistical reasons, it is entirely possible we could essentially ban certain customs in the next set update by simply not putting sets with certain customs in.

The only issue would be controversy over it, but we do actually have the power necessary to ban specific customs. Whether we should use it, and how, is another matter of course.
Imo it'd be akin to that of stage bans, still controversial but generally not to the point people refuse to play the entire game.
 
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MajorMajora

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Jul 15, 2014
Messages
709
Once again I see no reason to even consider banning a custom unless it makes a character the strongest in the game. I mean,we don't ban Sheik, so a custom that isn't worse than Sheik isn't too strong. So if it isn't for it being too strong, why should we ban it? And even if it did, how much stronger than the strongest character in the game is to strong?
 

Scarlet Jile

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Once again I see no reason to even consider banning a custom unless it makes a character the strongest in the game.
Being the strongest character in the game isn't ban-worthy, but degenerating the game to a point where no one, including the spectators or the players, derives anything but animosity for the character is not conducive to the health of the competitive scene.

So, yeah, there is definitely a reason. And in the future, when we've more or less established which characters are objectively struggling vs. which characters are having a super easy time of it, I wouldn't mind seeing custom moves used as a balancing utility.
 

webbedspace

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
302
I think it's pretty silly that, if push comes to shove, some people actually think the Smash community can't agree on banning literally 2 customs. It's always "all or nothing", which is a very flawed and very biased argument.
There's a considerable stigma at present against "becoming Smogon", i.e. making the Smash ruleset complicated to the point of artifice by a myriad of micro-rules. (I don't necessarily believe this accurately represents Smogon, nor do I believe banning 2-to-6 customs will slippery-slope this scenario, especially since several customs have already been "banned" from the EVO moveset lists that everyone's using).
 

MajorMajora

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
709
Being the strongest character in the game isn't ban-worthy, but degenerating the game to a point where no one, including the spectators or the players, derives anything but animosity for the character is not conducive to the health of the competitive scene.

So, yeah, there is definitely a reason. And in the future, when we've more or less established which characters are objectively struggling vs. which characters are having a super easy time of it, I wouldn't mind seeing custom moves used as a balancing utility.
HBS's effectiveness requires outplaying the opponent and is not nearly as powerful s people make it sound. Counter Sapling is only overly polarizing to people who are unfamiliar with it.

Overswarm made a great video showing how to beat a lot to. Salt is not something to ban things off of.
 
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bpjk27

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Sep 26, 2014
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Being the strongest character in the game isn't ban-worthy, but degenerating the game to a point where no one, including the spectators or the players, derives anything but animosity for the character is not conducive to the health of the competitive scene.

So, yeah, there is definitely a reason. And in the future, when we've more or less established which characters are objectively struggling vs. which characters are having a super easy time of it, I wouldn't mind seeing custom moves used as a balancing utility.
Couldn't that first paragraph apply to some characters in the default meta, such as Sonic. Nobody's talking about banning Sonic because he's not fun to play against and watch.
 
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